Ask Me Help Desk - Do you believe predestination is a biblical teaching?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

In no way, not by any sense of the word does that make a man God.

That is not what he said, based on the writings of St. Paul and Early Church fathers. Now I KNOW you didn't read what he said, or, if you did, as you claim to, you do not understand it. It is not making a man God.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

That is not what he said, based on the writings of St. Paul and Early Church fathers.

First, don't forget that the whole discussion started over the proposal that men become gods, and CCC article 460 which specifically states that men become gods and that men become God. That is what we are discussing!

As for Paul, he neither said nor implied anything of the sort. As for early church fathers, you are into opinions of men.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

First, don't forget that the whole discussion started over the proposal that men become gods, and CCC article 460 which specifically states that men become gods and that men become God. That is what we are discussing!

As for Paul, he neither said nor implied anything of the sort. As for early church fathers, you are into opinions of men.

Now I am sure you did not read (understand?) what Akoue so eloquently wrote today (and previously). Nor did you read (understand?) the Wiki passage. Had you read (understood?) either, you would not have posted what you just did about the bit (taken out of context) from the CCC article and men becoming gods/God (not deification).

Deification makes so very much sense in light of the entire process of sanctification.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Now I am sure you did not read (understand?) what Akoue so eloquently wrote today (and previously). Nor did you read (understand?) the Wiki passage. Had you read (understood?) either, you would not have posted what you just did about the bit (taken out of context) from the CCC article and men becoming gods/God (not deification).

First, just because I disagree based upon my knowledge of the topic does not mean that I did not read. To demand that I must agree because he holds that opinion is to suggest that disagreement is not permissible. Sorry WG, but you might be disappointed in the rights that we have in a free society. Actually, I am not sorry - if you cannot tolerate my right to disagree, that is your problem.

BTW, deification means to make men to be gods, thus article 460 by definition is deification.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

First, just because I disagree based upon my knowledge of the topic does not mean that I did not read. To demand that I must agree because he holds that opinion is to suggest that disagreement is not permissible. Sorry WG, but you might be disappointed in the rights that we have in a free society. Actually, I am not sorry - if you cannot tolerate my right to disagree, that is your problem.

BTW, deification means to make men to be gods, thus article 460 by definition is deification.

It's not a matter of your disagreeing; it's a matter of your obviously not understanding the term.

If you disagree with the correct meaning of deification, you will not continually pipe up with the "men become gods" phrase. You would present more nimble arguments.

Wondergirl,
I stand by you on this.
I do believe that when I become one with God the Son via partaking of the Holy Eucharist become deified; that is again ONE WITH GOD.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

It's not a matter of your disagreeing; it's a matter of your obviously not understanding the term.

You keep saying so, but I understand all too well.

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If you disagree with the correct meaning of deification, you will not continually pipe up with the "men become gods" phrase. You would present more nimble arguments.

You won't find a dictionary which gives a different definition. And it is what CCC Article 460 says, in those specific words.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You keep saying so, but I understand all too well.

Unfortuntely not.

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You won't find a dictionary which gives a different definition. And it is what CCC Article 460 says, in those specific words.

Have you read the context, the entire article? Or do what you frown on, lifted it out of context?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Unfortuntely not.

Constantly saying "You're wrong because I say so" is getting a bit boring and repetitive. Try a new argument.

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Have you read the context, the entire article? Or do what you frown on, lifted it out of context?

I have and I have.

Wondergirl,
I still stand by you on this.
The CCC DOES give and point out biblicly why it says what it says about being a god.
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Constantly saying "You're wrong because I say so" is getting a bit boring and repetitive. Try a new argument.

You first since it has been explained to death to you.

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I have and I have.

If you had, the discussion would be on a higher level from where you threw it.

Here is one explanation of deification (maybe this is clearer?):

[The saint] is simply concerned with the very Person, God. He wants God to take possession of Him and for him to possess God. It means that he becomes the very property of God because He no longer lives, but God who lives in Him (Gal 2:20). Being a property of God means that God, who is the great I AM, makes the human person, "I am YOURS." You still get to keep your personality, your "I," but it is always seen in relation to God: I am His, or much better, I am YOURS. To partake in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) is to really become a property of God.

What will your makeup be in heaven? What will you consist of?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Constantly saying "You're wrong because I say so" is getting a bit boring and repetitive. Try a new argument.

You first, since it has been explained to death to you.

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I have and I have.

If you had, the discussion would be on a higher level from where you threw it.

Here is one explanation of deification (maybe this is clearer?):

[The saint] is simply concerned with the very Person, God. He wants God to take possession of Him and for him to possess God. It means that he becomes the very property of God because He no longer lives, but God who lives in Him (Gal 2:20). Being a property of God means that God, who is the great I AM, makes the human person, "I am YOURS." You still get to keep your personality, your "I," but it is always seen in relation to God: I am His, or much better, I am YOURS. To partake in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) is to really become a property of God.

What will your makeup be in heaven? What will you consist of?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You first, since it has been explained to death to you.

And your argument has been refuted to death. Move on.

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Here is one explanation of deification (maybe this is clearer?):

I understand the claims, the attempts to distract from what the doctrine says, personal opinions, etc. but none of that tales away from what the doctrine actually says.

Until you are willing to face the actual doctrine and what it says head on, this discussion keeps going around in circles.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

And your argument has been refuted to death.

When?

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Until you are willing to face the actual doctrine and what it says head on, this discussion keeps going around in circles.

And you, of course, are correct re the doctrine.

You didn't answer my questions about what will you be in heaven, what will your makeup be.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

When?

You haven't been reading my posts, have you?

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And you, of course, are correct re the doctrine.

Thank for finally acknowledging that.

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You didn't answer my questions about what will you be in heaven, what will your makeup be.

We are told very little about the details, so I guess that we will wait and see. I do know that I will not be God or a god.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You haven't been reading my posts, have you?

Nor you mine or Akoue's apparently.

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Thank for finally acknowledging that.

(And he doesn't even recognize **friendly** sarcasm.)

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We are told very little about the details, so I guess that we will wait and see. I do know that I will not be God or a god.

So you have no sense of heaven?

Definitely not, you won't be a god or God. Neither will I. But my sanctification will be complete (deification).

Wondergirl,
In heaven we will be one with Him (God) as Jesus has indicated.
Not that He also prayed that His disciples would be one with Him as He is One with The Father.
I believe that is what happened; they became one with Him as He is with the Father.
Thus they were deified here on earth before entering heaven.
I become One with Jesus Christ when I partake of the Holy Eucharist as does everyone else who worthily does so.
Those who do so in an unworthily manner become guilty of the body and blood of Christ.
So the bible tells us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
In heaven we will be one with Him (God) as Jesus has indicated.
Not that He also prayed that His disciples would be one with Him as He is One with The Father.
I believe that is what happened; they became one with Him as He is with the Father.
Thus they were deified here on earth before entering heaven.
I become One with Jesus Christ when I partake of the Holy Eucharist as does everyone else who worthily does so.
Those who do so in an unworthily manner become guilty of the body and blood of Christ.
So the bible tells us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Thank you, Fred. I agree.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Nor you mine or Akoue's apparently.

I have indeed and have been responding. You appear to think that because I disagree, I have not read them.

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So you have no sense of heaven?

That does not logically follow. You ask me details of my nature in heaven and if I cannot provide a detailed answer, you suggest that I have no sense of heaven.

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Definitely not, you won't be a god or God. Neither will I. But my sanctification will be complete (deification).

Clearly you did not read the definition of deification or what CCC Article 460 says.

I will be saved - I will not be deified.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Clearly you did not read the definition of deification or what CCC Article 460 says.

I will be saved - I will not be deified.

Will be saved? You aren't yet?

I read the entire article with the quote in context and looked up the appropriate references to further understand it. Did you?