You try to place that idea on EVERYTHING Jesus said or did. That is an overreach. Jesus certainly is a God of love, but there is also judgment involved. In fact you can't really understand His love without understanding His judgment. You are as much in error as those who speak of nothing but judgment.

I love this passage from Isaiah 45. If you are a Spurgeon fan, it is the passage that led him to Christ. It is amazing because in it we see God as both judge and savior. Those two aspects can only come together in Christ.

Declare what is to be, present it—
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the Lord?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me.

22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,

The same idea is found in Romans 3:26. "...for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You try to place that idea on EVERYTHING Jesus said or did. That is an overreach. Jesus certainly is a God of love, but there is also judgment involved. In fact you can't really understand His love without understanding His judgment. You are as much in error as those who speak of nothing but judgment.

I love this passage from Isaiah 45. If you are a Spurgeon fan, it is the passage that led him to Christ. It is amazing because in it we see God as both judge and savior. Those two aspects can only come together in Christ.

Declare what is to be, present it—
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the Lord?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me.

22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,

The same idea is found in Romans 3:26. "...for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

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So we have to fear, not love. "I'm going to hell unless I believe."

Gospel means "good news" not "the big threat".

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That was Jesus' entire message, the reason He came to live among us -- Love.

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You've missed it WG- Jesus came to die on a cross. He came for us, out of his love for us. He didn't come to love.
Stick with it, you might get it someday. "our" love is as filthy rags! we need to keep our eyes on the Cross. We are to Die (Not Love).

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Of course, allegories often have lots of details to give them more substance and believability.

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This makes no sense -

What believability? Believability to a lie???

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The Good Samaritan is another allegory

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Well, It would sound more believable (being an Allegory???) if I knew how tall the Jewish fellow was, and I really think if he was to tell me what color shirt the good samaritan was wearing. What did the dimensions of the Ark tell us, the dimensions of God's love??? You're being silly.

The Gospel according to Wondergirl.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The Gospel according to Wondergirl.

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And, like Lazarus, I'll reach down and offer you a bit of water when you get thirsty.

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Originally Posted by waltero

You've missed it WG- Jesus came to die on a cross. He came for us, out of his love for us.

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Nope, didn't miss it. Even you said it. Exactly, waltero.

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Originally Posted by waltero

He didn't come to love.

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His entire time on earth was loving others.

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His entire time on earth was loving others.

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How do you figure?

No it was not. That is only true in your biased imagination. He was not loving when He cleansed the temple TWICE. He was not loving when He heavily criticized the Pharisees. His description of Himself in Matthew 25 is not loving. He was hard on His disciples several times. You are letting your preconceived ideas hold too much sway.

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Originally Posted by waltero

How do you figure?

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It wasn't love? He was getting paid? He healed the sick, He raised the dead, He suffered the little children to come unto Him, He turned water into wine at a wedding, He cleansed the lepers of their ulcerated skin, He fed hungry thousands with very little food, He gave sight to the blind.

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And how do you suppose you're going to simulate that love?

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In all sorts of ways -- and, of course, with God's help

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That he's an idiot

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WG, Athos has openly spit in the face of God. Do you really want to join him?
It doesn't matter where you came from or what your background- We are all sinners and we will always be sinners.
The gospel isn't merely a presentation of an Idea, the Gospel is the Power of God.

Deceived Walter. She is simply deceived.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Deceived Walter. She is simply deceived.

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About what?

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Originally Posted by waltero

WG, Athos has openly spit in the face of God. Do you really want to join him?

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No love for others in your life and words, I see.

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About what?

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about all the bondage and tyranny of Sin.

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No love for others in your life and words, I see.

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I believe you're looking at Athos, look over here, here I am.

Have you ever looked at Jesus on the Cross, and wondered why we should be so thrilled, seeing a man bleeding, dying on a cross?

Have you ever heard of a Wrathful Lamb? Look in the book. Yeah, it talks about the Lamb's wrath. not too scary eh.

When you make statements like: I was a Sunday school teacher, I am a daughter of a preacher man, I'm an educated woman...yup, you're in like Flynn. God has to accept you now. You have read the Bible many times- so that is why you never quote scripture?

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Of course, allegories often have lots of details to give them more substance and believability.

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This would only create confusion, if not deceitful. I suppose you felt you had to say something, knowing my reply had just popped your balloon. Did you noticed Athos, he had no clue what I was saying, once I explained to him what an Allegory is, he immediately understood my explanation as a game-changer...he quietly slipped out. Athos is thinking of this world, he doesn't know the God of the Bible. He lacks understand because he is thinking with his flesh. I understand you and him go way back, don't allow him to lead you down that path. When you agree (which is 99.9% of the time) with him, you are making a grave mistake...your grave.

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Originally Posted by waltero

about all the bondage and tyranny of Sin.

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Yes, I'm well aware of that. Jesus has broken those chains and freed me.

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Have you ever looked at Jesus on the Cross

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I cannot believe you are saying these things. Have you ever done any mission work?

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You have read the Bible many times, so that is why you never quote scripture?

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I don't cherrypick.

How does refuting scripture with a silly "no" help? Every time I quote scripture, your only comeback is "No", "Nope"
Not true, etc Especially when you spoke as if Jesus was in error when he was talking about "Unless a seed dies, thing.
You should look up science Friday. It will explain how a seed dies once it is planted.

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Have you ever looked at Jesus on the Cross

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I think your view has become clouded. We need to suffer the Cross every day. We live Love. we preach Christ Crucified.
When you lose sight of the Cross, then you lose...

Well, it's back to work. Tell Athos Goodby, for me. I will miss him. Take care of yourself WG.
Later JL, Your posts are a big help to me. Athos is my fave though. He is so worldly and has no clue what language the Bible speaks. I enjoy seeking truth while he's around, he presents questions that really hit the spot. The righteous don't make it into heaven, Heaven is for sinners.

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Originally Posted by waltero

How does refuting scripture with a silly "no" help?

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Huh?

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I think your view has become clouded. We need to suffer the Cross every day. We live Love. we preach Christ Crucified.
When you lose sight of the Cross, then you lose...

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You think wrong, my friend.

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Originally Posted by waltero

Well, it's back to work. Tell Athos Goodby, for me. I will miss him. Take care of yourself WG.
Later JL, Your posts are a big help to me. Athos is my fave though. He is so worldly and has no clue what language the Bible speaks. I enjoy seeking truth while he's around, he presents questions that really hit the spot. The righteous don't make it into heaven, Heaven is for sinners.

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You seem to be obsessed with me. Your posts include me even when replying to someone else.

Rarely, do I see a coherent reply from you - just more of your condemnation of those who don't go along with your (often incomprehensible) view of Christianity.

When you think you have all the answers, that's a good sign you're on the wrong track, walter. Try to be less narrow and a little more open-minded. It won't hurt you, might even help you.

And be careful about that habit you evangelicals have about threatening anyone who believes differently. It may backfire on you someday.

Showing a lot of fear - not from others - but from your own doubt about your own faith which is evident from your excessive attempt to sermonize and act as though you had a direct line to God when complaining about others here. The Lady doth protest too much, said the great man.

I take it you're leaving us. Go in peace. I trust you've learned something from your brief sojourn with us.

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Deceived Walter. She is simply deceived.



About what?

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You think Jesus, Paul, John, David, and Jonathan were all gay, and you really wonder what you might be deceived about? It's like I've said many times. You make up your mind about what you believe, and then you look for any little scrap of scripture that might in some small way support it. You really have no concern about what the Bible says. You said that everything Jesus did was about love. I pointed out many places where that was not true. Your response is to just breezily move on to something else.


https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by waltero https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom...post-right.png

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WG, Athos has openly spit in the face of God. Do you really want to join him?

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No love for others in your life and words, I see.

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Some more of your selective criticism. Athos says far more outrageous things, but you never "correct" him. Wonder why?

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Later JL, Your posts are a big help to me.

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Hang in there, Walter. One thing you can be sure of here. We discuss endlessly, yet no one's mind ever gets changed. I really wonder what the point is.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

He was not loving when He cleansed the temple TWICE. He was not loving when He heavily criticized the Pharisees. His description of Himself in Matthew 25 is not loving. He was hard on His disciples several times. You are letting your preconceived ideas hold too much sway.

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You have no idea what love is.

In each of your examples Jesus is correcting others. Loving others is disciplining - like a parent scolds a child. You think love is some weak woosy thing. It's not. Jesus expressed his idea of love saying, "Greater love hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friend". Hardly a sentimental idea.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Athos says far more outrageous things,

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What outrageous things have I said? Put up or shut up.

Correcting others? He made a whip, turned over tables, and physically drove out the money changers from the Temple. Some correction! His "woe unto you" passage to the Pharisees also was not corrective but rather condemnatory.

Beyond that, I actually tend to agree with your idea about discipline equating to love, but it's not the syrupy sweet love that WG seems to have in mind. And you neglected to make an observation about His description of Himself in Matthew 25 where He lovingly welcomes those who belong to Him, but condemns those who don't to eternity in hell, a truth repeated several dozen times in the NT, thus ensuring that no thinking person can make a reference to "cherry-picking" when the Mt. 25 passage is mentioned.