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Originally Posted by homesell

Arcura - If Judas had received the Holy Spirit he could not have been lost.

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Judas could not have received the Holy Spirit because Jesus had not yet given it to them:

John 20:19-23
19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 Now when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
NKJV

As to whether they could have ceased to be saved afterward, that is circular reasoning because scripture does not tell us anywhere that one who have received the Holy Spirit cannot subsequently reject Him.

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TJ3- There is a big difference between tasting food and eating a meal that stays in you.

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Interesting - I did not focus on the word taste, but I notice that everyone who is challenged with this passage always gives that same response. First, note that the people who turned away from God had been partakers of the Holy Spirit, the same words used to describe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in 2 Peter 1:4.

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I AM saying the decision is not ours. Look up the word chosen in your concordance and you will see the numerous times God says we didn't choose Him but that He chose us.

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I have indeed studied this, and you will find that numerous times in scripture that we chose Him also. The truth is that it works both ways. To try to say that we have no decision is not scriptural and to say that it is all our decision is also unscriptural.

Since scripture says we were chosen before the foundation of the world(which is obviously before we were ever born) How is it our choice. John the Baptist had no choice since he was given the holy spirit while still in his mothers womb. Any choice we think we have is because of God arranging our circumstances to bring us to him. I and many others look back at when we were saved and will tell you that if the circumstances that happened to them had happened in any other way or at any other time, they wouldn't have "made a decision" for Christ. I know not everyone thinks that but a good percentage do and possibly the others haven't really given it much thought.

Jakester, you ask for a follow up explanation and I gave you one. Did my answer satisfy your question.

I have to say that all I've seen lately is more disagreement over what scripture REALLY means. Am I the only one that sees, that if interpretation is up for grabs, then stating something as fact is useless?

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Originally Posted by homesell

Jakester - The old Jeff is 56. The new Jeff is will be 40 this summer. Old enough not to care if someone calls me a different name than what they know is my username.
Arcura - If Judas had recieved the Holy Spirit he could not have been lost. The Spirit isn't given like a revolving door where you are saved one day, lost the next, saved the next day, lost the next and so on. John 17:11-12 makes it clear what happened to Judas and why the others didn't fall away while Jesus was with them.
TJ3- There is a big difference between tasting food and eating a meal that stays in you. This is like some marquees in front of churches asking people to "try" Jesus as if he was a vitamin or some new therapy. People do not "try" the Lord. They may go to church and give money and do good works and think they are experiencing Christianity when all they are doing is what they see others who claim to be christians doing. and you're right. I AM saying the decision is not ours. Look up the word chosen in your concordance and you will see the numerous times God says we didn't choose Him but that He chose us. If God chose us, which he did, we cannot "opt out" from salvation. Anyone that "opts out" probably did choose God but God (for His own purposes) did not choose them.

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JEFF,

Homeslice was meant to be cute.. funny. Guess you have to get to know me. I agree with the term "tasted" being totally different from eating and digesting... you taste something to try it. I don't just "TASTE" cheesecake. I have "tasted" buttermilk... no thank YOU! ;)

P.S tj3, don't EVEN think about giving me a reddie for that... lest I come to one of your conferences and boo you... hee hee ( teasing;))

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Originally Posted by cozyk

Jakester, you ask for a follow up explanation and I gave you one. Did my answer satisfy your question.

I have to say that all I've seen lately is more disagreement over what scripture REALLY means. Am I the only one that sees, that if interpretation is up for grabs, then stating something as fact is useless?

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Cozyk,

I wish we agreed on everything.. but we don't. I agree with almost everything tj3 has said and so far with everything that Jakester has said... but when I stand before God, I will give an account for ME! It won't matter if I disagreed with anyone... what will matter to the LORD is what I did with truth. Did I blow it off and say... it doesn't work anyhow because someone who calls himself a Christian doesn't act like it? Please. The question is still there for YOU... what will YOU do the Christ? Stop looking at Christains! Or so "called christians" they are NOT the standard.

Let me tell you what... if I am the standard for my kids... than THEY are in BIG trouble... I try to be the standard but I still have this old FLESH. It still rears it's ugly head... and I have a choice.. go wth it or DIE to it. Most of the time... my new man wins... but not always.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

Jakester, you ask for a follow up explanation and I gave you one. Did my answer satisfy your question.

I have to say that all I've seen lately is more disagreement over what scripture REALLY means. Am I the only one that sees, that if interpretation is up for grabs, then stating something as fact is useless?

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cozyk - yes, it did... I've been away fishing this weekend and haven't had time to respond yet. No, I think you painted a very clear picture of where you are coming from and I appreciate your honesty.

To quote Oasis "there are many things that I, would like to say to you but I don't know how." I'd like to think that I could offer you some thoughts on the many things you spoke of but then the reality is that I know better... you've lived your life and have had your share of experiences that have brought you to the conclusions you've come to and that's not going to change. Some young guy like me is not going to "move" you and give you some compelling argument for anything because I think at this point in the game, you are pretty well dug in... if you know what I mean. In other words, you're mind is made up.

But all the same, I appreciate another human being engaging in self-reflective honesty about where she is coming from. To me I think that is rare because often times—in my experience—people feel that Christianity is silly and stupid but don't have the guts to on record about that fact. At least you did that.

Lastly, cozyk, the debate going on in this thread shows disagreements about interpretation but there are many people here who also agree on biblical matters... people who've never even met each other before and yet they share similar perspectives. To me, as much as there are differences to be observed with Christians and their understanding of the bible, etc. the fact that they have anything in common relative to faith is compelling. All I am saying is that if you are to be observationally honest, you will have to note that, yes, there have been disagreements here; but there have also been a lot of agreements. That is important.

It comes so naturally to us to be critical of each other... I don't think we need to work at that or be challenged to do better. But a great deal of character is required to point out the good in the things we observe because to not do so is unwise.

Respectfully.

Right Jakester. People should know that we don't stop loving someone just because they disagree. I can't imagine anyone being closer to each other than my wife and I are to each other yet we certainly disagree on different doctrinal issues. Not the essentials of the faith but the peripheral stuff that is open to interpretation. The truth is, not every doctrine is clear cut one way or the other and no one person has a corner on the truth or is right about every or even most, things.

ClassyT - no offense was taken. I still don't have a clue as to what homeslice means which is probably why I didn't get the joke.

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Originally Posted by homesell

Since scripture says we were chosen before the foundation of the world(which is obviously before we were ever born) How is it our choice.

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This is what I spoke about earlier. When we start making it a "before" or "after" after, we heffectively say that God is trapped in the timeline along with His creation. But God is outside of time, so He did not do anything before or after us. It is like Jesus said - "Before Abraham was, I* AM". Jesus, being God, is outside of time, and though Abraham was in the past from our perspective, for Jesus it is the present because there is no timeline.

So did God make the decision before us, or after us? Neither. The interaction between when we made our decision and when God chose us is something that we cannot possibly comprehend because cannot understand what it is like to be outside of time. But what we do know is that God chose us, and we chose Him. Both are scriptural.

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Originally Posted by classyT

JEFF,
Homeslice was meant to be cute..funny. guess ya have to get to know me. I agree with the term "tasted" being totally different from eating and digesting...you taste something to try it. I don't just "TASTE" cheesecake. I have "tasted" buttermilk...no thank YOU! ;)

P.S tj3, don't EVEN think about givin me a reddie for that...lest i come to one of your conferences and boo ya...hee hee ( teasing;))

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Tess,

I would not dare give you a reddie for that! But you are welcome to come to a conference. We have a smaller 1 day soming up in a couple of weeks on cults and false teachings.

As for taste, let's see if your usage of the word taste holds us.

Matt 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27, John 8:52 - Speaks of tasting "death". Is it referring to dying or not?

Heb 2:9 says that Jesus tasted death - did He die or not?

Lastly, whatever we know of having a relationship with God is only a taste of what it will be in eternity.

Tom

Yes, God is outside of time. He is not on a linear time continuum. His creation is as all of matter is subject to time. A plain and simple reading of the scripture says We were chosen before the foundation of the world. I think that tells us when. Just as in creation it says on the first day, on the second day, etc. God was not on a timeline then or now but we are still told when he did things. Thanks for your input.

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Originally Posted by homesell

Yes, God is outside of time. He is not on a linear time continuum.

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We agree.

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His creation is as all of matter is subject to time.

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We agree.

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A plain and simple reading of the scripture says We were chosen before the foundation of the world. I think that tells us when.

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Think of it this way.

Draw a line on a page of paper. The far left end of the line is creation. The far right end is the final judgment and the start of our life with God in eternity. The middle of the line is the death and resurrection of Christ on the cross. Our lives start and end at points along this line. We live on that timeline. We can look at what is to the left as having happened and as being behind us in time; and what is on the right hand as being that which is to happen.

When we discuss salvation, we speak of what happened before and what happened after. We know no other framework of existence. But God looks at events in time the way that we look down on that time. He sees eternity past and he sees eternity future all at the same time. He see the time before the creation of the world, the time at the cross, the time when we were born, when we we received Christ as Saviour, the time when we will die, and the final judgment all at the same "time" just as we see that whole timeline.

Thus when we read that He chose us before the foundations of the earth, that is right, just as it is right when scripture speaks of us choosing Him.

From God's perspective, did the decision of His to choose us happen before or after our decision to accept Christ as Saviour? No, He sees them both occurring at the same "time". Notice that we cannot discuss this without talking about time before we cannot comprehend being outside of time.

It is true that God chose us before the foundation of the world. Just as it is true that Chose God:

Josh 24:21-23
22 So Joshua said to the people, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD for yourselves, to serve Him." And they said, "We are witnesses!" 23 Now therefore," he said, "put away the foreign gods which are among you, and incline your heart to the LORD God of Israel."
NKJV

How do we reconcile these two things?

We know that God predestined us, and we know that God chose us base upon His foreknowledge?

1 Peter 1:1-2
1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
NKJV

How do we reconcile these two things?

In both cases, we cannot reconcile them. We know both are true, and we know that both, from God's perspective are happening before Him even now, as He looks down upon the whole timeline.

homesell,
I understand what you are saying.
You are quite clear, but I still believe that under certain circumstances a person can loose their salvation.
God chose Judas to be a follower of Jesus and he was but his over zealousness for a conquering king was his undoing.
Where Judas receive the Holy Spirit or not I do not know, but I suspect that you might be right.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

homesell,
I understand what you are saying.
You are quite clear, but I still believe that under certain circumstances a person can loose their salvation.
God chose Judas to be a follower of Jesus and he was but his over zealousness for a conquering king was his undoing.
Where Judas receive the Holy Spirit or not I do not know, but I suspect that you might be right.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Fred,

The word "lose" typically means to have misplaced something, not knowing when you lost it or where. Applied to salvation, this wcould mean that a person ceases to be saved without knowing it. Scripture is quite clear that that cannot happen, for example:

John 10:29-30
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV

Scripture does say that there are those who fall from the faith, and in that case, they must knowingly choose to leave their salvation. They did not "lose" it.

Tom

Tj3,
I have had my say on this matter and earlier on listed how a person can loses there salvation.
I intend to stand by what I believe the bible and Jesus tells me.
Thanks anyway.
Fred

Fred,
You should always stand by what you believe the Bible and Jesus tells you - but continue in looking at things from a different perspective. "One man sharpens another as iron sharpens iron". These questions and answers helps us to strengthen and clarify what we believe about things the Bible isn't clear on and, as TJ3 pointed out there are paradox in the Bible. Like we are pre-destined AND we choose, like Jesus created his own Mama, He gave life to those that killed him, Very God lives inside us yet we still find ourselves sinning either in thought word or deed.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I have had my say on this matter and earlier on listed how a person can loses there salvation.
I intend to stand by what I believe the bible and Jesus tells me.
Thanks anyway.
Fred

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Fred,

Can you show me in scripture where it says that a person can be saved and unknowingly become unsaved?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Fred,

Can you show me in scripture where it says that a person can be saved and unknowingly become unsaved?

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Tj3,
Do you feel Paul's word of the fear in those who could be beguiled, and yet were as chaste virgin to Christ is an example. According to what is written all are saved by the grace of God if they believe, all were set free from the bondage of sin or the curse in which Adam caused. Christ was sent so that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Not accepting Christ is a rejection of salvation brought to us.


2 Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

For the grace of God comes to every man

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

So deception from His grace that brought salvation is likely for those who don't deny themselves, and follow Christ in righteousness. This can be consider a double minded person wanting to live their life in lust and sin, but feel they are saved by Christ because they believe in HIM. Where faith without works is dead.

Or someone that believes in Christ yet their are beguiled by enticing good appearance of false teaching. Unknowingly destroyed by lack of knowledge of the truth, and not hearing HIS voice which is the simplicity of Christ.

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Originally Posted by homesell

ClassyT - no offense was taken. I still don't have a clue as to what homeslice means which is probably why I didn't get the joke.

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Oh.. it is a "urban" term... meaning a homie... or a friend. It is silly really but it was meant in a good spirit because I found myself agreeing with you. So I called you homeslice. Besides my boys come in calling me that and asking "homeslice whats for dinner". It is funny, stupid and silly and it always makes me smile.:)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Tess,

I would not dare give you a reddie for that!! But you are welcome to come to a conference. We have a smaller 1 day soming up in a couple of weeks on cults and false teachings.

As for taste, let's see if your usage of the word taste holds us.

Matt 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27, John 8:52 - Speaks of tasting "death". Is it referring to dying or not?

Heb 2:9 says that Jesus tasted death - did He die or not?

Lastly, whatever we know of having a relationship with God is only a taste of what it will be in eternity.

Tom

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I thought a lot about this. Jesus did taste death but he didn't stay dead... he "tasted" it but was alive the third day and alive forever more. Not at ALL like when we die... is it?