Ask Me Help Desk - Purgatory - just how long is it?

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Originally Posted by sndbay

The statement I made is backed by scripture.. Should you judge another NO! .. lest ye be condemned.
James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

I guess this also means not to judge Catholics for their beliefs... or, let me guess, that's allowed?

Nobody is judging you... we state our beliefs just as you state yours... where is the judging?
We say why we do not believe your beliefs just as you say why you do not believe our beliefs... again where is the judging?

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

I guess this also means not to judge Catholics for their beliefs.... or, let me guess, that's allowed?

Not at all should anyone judge Scott.. This is a question and answer with logic and reasoning being used web site.

I rather give all acknowledgement to God, and His Word. It is He that reveals all unto us, if it be His Will, and He alone is glorified forever. No one else..

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

We say why we do not believe your beliefs just as you say why you do not believe our beliefs....again where is the judging?

I guess I don't remember starting a thread to tell anyone why their beliefs are false...

That's one difference I guess, I might take issue with HOW you come to your beliefs (sola scriptura) but not the beliefs themselves... I think you have the right to worship however you choose... anything else is judgement.

I was simply replying to this remark...

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

I guess this also means not to judge Catholics for their beliefs.... or, let me guess, that's allowed?

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

I guess I don't remember starting a thread to tell anyone why their beliefs are false...

That's one difference I guess, I might take issue with HOW you come to your beliefs (sola scriptura) but not the beliefs themselves... I think you have the right to worship however you choose... anything else is judgement.

Scott, You do indeed have the right to worship however you choose. But again this is a ASK ME Help Desk.. you will receive answers and questions.. that is a logical assumption.. Mine are scriptures being shared and seeds to plant and grow as God sees fit. Pointing fingers is not done.. For I follow the rule that pointing 1 finger is 3 fingers back at yourself.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Pointing fingers is not done.. For I follow the rule that pointing 1 finger is 3 fingers back at yourself.

Rrrrrrrright... I guess all the "{{{REBUKE REBUKE REBUKE!}}}" judgements were just simply you "sharing" your beliefs. :eek:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what "judgment" is...

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

Joe in all honesty it's because the rather a state of being purified already took place on the cross. At that moment finished...done.. That is what Chirst did.. To suggest differently or doing it again is to question the worthyness of what already took place.

No, not exactly. The sacrifice you speak of had no need to be purified. It was the fulfillment (end or finish) of the covenant with Moses. What it began was the New Covenant, with the real presence of God, His Kingdom on earth and the promise of salvation through faith and good works. God gave His only Son (the Lamb); the pure sacrifice provided by God, for our sin as well as the original sin. As I take it, It was done out of God's love for us. We should acknowledge receipt of that love though our own obedient love. What this sacrifice can't do without our participation is pay for our rejection of God's love. In some cases rejection can take the form where God's love is used as a tool for our selfish aims; such as a case where one depends on the spouse's love to manipulate their own gain, or in those cases where one uses God's love to, as it were, justify themselves by restricting God Will to their own interpretation; as it were done in a way to force God to prove His love – in Paul's day this was done by the Judo/Christian communities Rom 10:3 For they, not knowing the justice of God and seeking to establish their own, have not submitted themselves to the justice of God.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

No, not exactly. The sacrifice you speak of had no need to be purified. It was the fulfillment (end or finish) of the covenant with Moses. What it began was the New Covenant, with the real presence of God, His Kingdom on earth and the promise of salvation through faith and good works. God gave His only Son (the Lamb); the pure sacrifice provided by God, for our sin as well as the original sin. As I take it, It was done out of God’s love for us. We should acknowledge receipt of that love though our own obedient love. What this sacrifice can’t do is pay for our rejection of God’s love. In some cases rejection can take the form where God’s love is used as a tool for our selfish aims; such as a case where one depends on the spouse’s love to manipulate their own gain, or in those cases where one uses God’s love to, as it were, justify themselves by restricting God Will to their own interpretation; as it were done in a way to force God to prove His love – in Paul’s day this was done by the Judo/Christian communities Rom 10:3 For they, not knowing the justice of God and seeking to establish their own, have not submitted themselves to the justice of God.

JoeT

I don't know how you can limit Jesus' death to only fulfilling the OT when the Bible says repeatedly in so many ways that Jesus was made a sacrifice for our sins and his blood washed away our sins throughout the new testament.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I don't know how you can limit Jesus' death to only fulfilling the OT when the Bible says repeatedly in so many ways that Jesus was made a sacrifice for our sins and his blood washed away our sins throughout the new testament.

Read a little closer, I didn't say that.

OH I missed for our sin as well as the original sin. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

OH I missed for our sin as well as the original sin. Sorry.

No harm done.

What does it matter? You will be dead.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

the promise of salvation through faith and good works

Salvation is not through good works. Any works we do are God's love reflecting off us and become our thank you to Him for His grace and mercy.

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for our sin as well as the original sin

Jesus' sacrifice on the cross paid for ALL sins.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

I don't care to limit the divine mercy of God.... only He truly knows who is lost.

Peace be with you.

And he simply states that those who are not with him are against him you are eather hot or cold and warm water he spits out meaning that they to are going to hell.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Umm.... I already told you: faith.

"As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come."[St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31]

... and based upon faith that the person being prayed for is worthy of heaven, though in need of the "purgatorial fire" of Christ, we hope to intercede on their behalf.

I pray that one day this will be done for me!:D

Understand that this said Nor in the next age that means you will not be forgiven!

Pergatorial fire? This was never said!

Matthew 12

Jesus and Beelzebub
22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."

25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

29"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.

30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

This again is talking about something completely different use the word of God in context! And if you hadn't noticed I have already posted this up in earlyer posts so before you try to bring things like this up look in the prevous posts to see if they where descused!

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and based upon faith that the person being prayed for is worthy of heaven, though in need of the "purgatorial fire" of Christ

Hmmm. I'm worthy of heaven now, this minute. Christ "purged" my sins by dying on the cross.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottRC

Rrrrrrrright..... I guess all the "{{{REBUKE REBUKE REBUKE!}}}" judgements were just simply you "sharing" your beliefs. :eek:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what "judgment" is....

Well before accuse me to giving judgement, please allow me to explain what my actions were in rebuking a double barreled statement. The intention is to rebuke satan. Jesus does this many times throughout the scriptures. We are told to rebuke satan temptations. So if you want to judge me in doing something wrong or bad that is your choice and you are accountable to that choice.

Another issue is correction can be helpful to bring obedience to the Word of God. Do we agree on that?

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Originally Posted by JoeT777
The promise of salvation through faith and good works

Didn't we already talk about this read post 511 on page 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

No, not exactly. The sacrifice you speak of had no need to be purified. It was the fulfillment (end or finish) of the covenant with Moses. What it began was the New Covenant, with the real presence of God, His Kingdom on earth and the promise of salvation through faith and good works. God gave His only Son (the Lamb); the pure sacrifice provided by God, for our sin as well as the original sin. As I take it, It was done out of God's love for us. We should acknowledge receipt of that love though our own obedient love. What this sacrifice can't do without our participation is pay for our rejection of God's love. In some cases rejection can take the form where God's love is used as a tool for our selfish aims; such as a case where one depends on the spouse's love to manipulate their own gain, or in those cases where one uses God's love to, as it were, justify themselves by restricting God Will to their own interpretation; as it were done in a way to force God to prove His love – in Paul's day this was done by the Judo/Christian communities Rom 10:3 For they, not knowing the justice of God and seeking to establish their own, have not submitted themselves to the justice of God.

JoeT

God Holds Truth I offer His Word as that Truth

Mathew 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Hebrews 9:11-12 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, [B]having obtained eternal redemption [for us].[/B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Maria,

Are you aware that in translating words from one language to another, there is some loss in the connotation of the word? And yes, in English, prison means prison, and yes, the Greek word can mean prison when read in that context. But the Greek word carries a wider meaning which you appear to wish to ignore.

I thought you had turned over a new leaf and were going to begin answering the questions asked of you.

Here it is again:

I asked (message #459):

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I consider a place of confinement a jail. Apparently you want to put a different spin on it than the actual people who actually know the language and what it means.
[i]1 Peter 3:18-20 (New International Version)
19through whomalso he went and preached to the spirits in prison

KJV
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Literally everyone interprets it "prison", except you.

What makes you a greater authority than they?

Please answer the question. The interpreters who translated the Greek to English in the NIV and the KJV say that word means "prison" when taking into account the Greek context. What makes you a greater authority than they?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

I thought you had turned over a new leaf and were going to begin answering the questions asked of you.

Here it is again:

I asked (message #459):

Please answer the question. The interpreters who translated the Greek to English in the NIV and the KJV say that word means "prison" when taking into account the Greek context. What makes you a greater authority than they?

Sincerely,

De Maria

YOU BOTH ARE MAKING THE SAME ARGUMENT! Just saying it diffrently he said it means prison you say it means prison God never meant us to argue the exactsame point you both agree that it means prison so we have all had enough of this please. And you need not know somones age(whether or not you asked) or there education this does not effect how the Holy Spirit brings us to a realization of what his word means.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilmkiss

didnt we already talk about this read post 511 on page 52

I appreciate pointing that out, but it doesn’t settle the matter. There is a requitable element to any gift given. Accepting God’s love holds an obligation of returning that love with obedience.

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Maria,

I cannot keep doing all your work for you. You eventually have to do some of your own. As we have stated before, hades is hell. And it is across a gulf from Abraham's Bosom (not the same place).

Oh suddenly you don't want to use a lexicon.

Let me enlighten you:

Hadēs

1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions

2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead

3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

The realm of the dead. That description seems to jive quite well with Purgatory. Much better than with the place of eternal damnation. N wonder you lost your lexicon when asked what "hades" means in Greek.

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Ah, now you add your own private interpretation into it. There is no purgatory, nor anything that looks like purgatory here. That is the problem that you are and have been facing from the start.

I beg to differ. The one facing the problem is you as I have proven above.

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Not anymore.. that appears to be one of the points that you are missing. The other is that scripture has no description of purgatory here or anywhere else.

It seems to be quite clearly described here.

1. Note that the rich man is praying to Father Abraham, both for himself and for his brothers.
2. Note that the rich man is suffering in flames.

Therefore, it seems quite clearly to describe the condition of a soul, which it not in eternal damnation and not in heaven. The only option is Purgatory. Which you deny in spite of the Scriptural evidence.

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Maria,

I told you before, and you agreed with my approach - when your posts get to be too long, I pick what I think are the key points and respond to them.

Oh, that's fine. But I'm not complaining about your shortening the messages but about your ignoring pertinent questions. There's a difference.

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To come back now and get nasty about that is at best inappropriate.

Now, I am under absolutely no obligation to play 20 questions with you.

You're under no obligation to answer any questions, I agree. We are under no obligation to even speak to each other.

However, when you dodge pertinent questions, I will make sure to highlight what you've done.

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You are a grown woman -

You've probably forgotten. I've corrected you before. I'm a man. No harm taken.

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do your own work, argue your own points, and don't get nasty because someone doesn't do all your work for you.

I do quite well at all those things. I think you're getting upset because you have lost credibility.

First, you twist Cardinal Newman's words.
Then, you underhandedly claim that the Catholic Church is mentioned in Rev 17.
Then, you don't know the difference between the keys to heaven and the keys to hell.
All the while dodging pertinent questions and using the excuse that you are shortening the messages. Ruuuiiiiight.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

I appreciate pointing that out, but it doesn’t settle the matter. There is a requitable element to any gift given. Accepting God’s love holds an obligation of returning that love with obedience.

JoeT

Grandma gives you a gift, a birthday present, free, no strings, doesn't dangle it in front of you and demand a payback. You tell her thank you and mow the lawn for her out of love.

Same with God and you. He sent His Son to die on the cross--free, a gift, no strings. You tell Him thank you and then do your best to treat others with the same kind of unconditional love.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilmkiss

understand that this said Nor in the next age that means you will not be forgiven!

That's certainly ONE way to interpret that text...

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and if you hadn't noticed I have already posted this up in earlyer posts so before you try to bring things like this up look in the prevous posts to see if they where descused!

No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Grandma gives you a gift, a birthday present, free, no strings, doesn't dangle it in front of you and demand a payback. You tell her thank you and mow the lawn for her out of love.

Same with God and you. He sent His Son to die on the cross--free, a gift, no strings. You tell Him thank you and then do your best to treat others with the same kind of unconditional love.

Thank you I could not have said it better myself :)

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

That's certainly ONE way to interpret that text...

No thanks.

So what does the word Nor mean? As far as the dictionary is concerned means will not or can not, there for by definition in this text that a sin against the Holy Spirit is grounds for and automatic dismisal to hell, not to (a fake place called pergatory), or to heven you will not be forgiven ever and that is not one way to enterpret this scripture, it is the only way. (The Bible means what it says there are not muti meanings to the texts if it says if a man does this they are going to hell that's exactly what it means! And the definition of the english language might change but this is the context it was written in is plain and simple.)

If you want scripture to back any of this up ask me for it and I will be more then willing to get it for you.

And just because you use the NKJV or the KJV I am a student of old english texts, not just the bible but going to Shakespeare. Athough my spelling isn't alwase the best I can tell you what the definition of any old english word means!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Grandma gives you a gift, a birthday present, free, no strings, doesn't dangle it in front of you and demand a payback. You tell her thank you and mow the lawn for her out of love.

Then, half way finished, you decide to steal her lawnmower and go buy some booze... after consuming it, you think it would be funny to see how flammable grandma's house is and set it on fire.

Ooops... it turns out to be very flammable.

No worries though, grandma won't ask for the present back, and you certainly don't "owe" her anything to repair her house... right?

;)

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I thought you had turned over a new leaf and were going to begin answering the questions asked of you.

Sigh!

I had hoped that you had stopped making false accusations.

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Please answer the question.

I answer reasonable questions. I see no need to answer false accusations disguised as strawman questions.

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Originally Posted by Lilmkiss

(The Bible means what it says there are not muti meanings to the texts if it says if a man does this they are going to hell thats exactly what it means! and the definition of the english language might change but this is the context it was writen in is plain and simple.)

We'll have to disagree on this... I believe Scripture is polyvalent.

Peace be with you.

Why, let the stricken deer go weep,
The hart ungalled play;
For some must watch, while some must sleep:
So runs the world away.
Would not this, sir, and a forest of feathers-- if
The rest of my fortunes turn Turk with me--with two
Provincial roses on my razed shoes, get me a
Fellowship in a cry of players, sir?

:D

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

I believe Scripture is polyvalent.
:D

To the point of taking things out of context?

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

We'll have to disagree on this... I believe Scripture is polyvalent.

Show me scripure to back this up and I will not believe you until you do so. But I agree with you if you where to add if you take one verse it can have many meanings but if you actuly take the rest of the verses along with it then it can only have one. On this point taking one verse and interperting it as something in and of itself with out the context is adding and or subtracting and through out the bible this is a shown as a unforgivable offence to the holy spirit and will not be forgiven again you want the bible verses I will have no problem procuring them for you.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

I would say that is taking the point of what is being explained way out of context,

Just following in to the logical conclusion... the statment:

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Same with God and you. He sent His Son to die on the cross--free, a gift, no strings. You tell Him thank you and then do your best to treat others with the same kind of unconditional love.

... brings up the question of what happens when WE sin and how does that affect this "free, no-strings" gift mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Lilmkiss

show me scripure to back this up and i will not belive you untill you do so.

I couldn't care less if you believe me or not... I'm simply offering what I believe.

Because you are comparing people who accept the free gift to and with people that refuse the free gift that is the difference. That is mixing apples with oranges.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Because you are comparing people who accept the free gift to and with people that refuse the free gift that is the difference. That is mixing apples with oranges.

Nope... the gift of salvation is free... but do our actions (specifically our sins) affect this gift?

If you don't believe it does, I'd be curious to see some Biblical support for the idea that sin has no consequence and our actions won't be judged.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

We'll have to disagree on this... I believe Scripture is polyvalent.

Does this mean that you think that we can interpret it any way that we want? Or just many different ways?

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

I could care less if you believe me or not... I'm simply offering what I believe.

Your personal private interpretation!

Exactly.

Ok, we are starting to insult and start attacking.

We are close to having to close their thread