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Scripture says that private means by man not the Holy Spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
And as for Apostolic authority, the Apostles all died about 2000 years ago. I'll stick with God's word, which comes from God, which is where the Apostles got their authority to begin with.
Divine revelation, private interpretation, whatever you want to call it it seems odd to me that we can all have the same 'private interpretation' which to me makes it seem like not so personally interpreted as some claim.
Well, it shouldn't seem odd to you at all... you've all been educated by the same faith tradition and "stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught".Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
As Athanasius spoke against the Arians faulty interpretations of Scripture:
"However here too they (Arians) introduce their private fictions, and contend that the Son and the Father are not in such wise 'one,' or 'like,' as the CHURCH preaches, but as they themselves would have it"
-Orat 3,10
"Let us, retaining the GENERAL SCOPE of the faith, acknowledge that what they interpret ill, has a RIGHT interpretation"
-Orat 3,35
"But after him (the devil) and with him are all inventors of unlawful heresies, who indeed refer to the Scriptures, BUT DO NOT hold such opinions as the SAINTS HAVE HANDED DOWN, and receiving them as the traditions of men, err, because they DO NOT rightly KNOW THEM nor their power"
-Festal Letter 2
"Of course, the holy Scriptures, divinely inspired are self-sufficient for the proclamation of the truth. But there are also numerous works composed for this purpose by blessed TEACHERS. The ONE WHO READS THEM will UNDERSTAND the INTERPRETATION of the Scriptures AND will be ABLE to GAIN knowledge he desires"
-C. Gentes 1
God bless.
THEN it is not private interpretation, as insisted upon in De Marie's post, if it was taught.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
I understand what you are saying... but I believe the rule against "private interpretation" does not simple mean one person.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Athanasius also correctly understood that "The holy and inspired Scriptures are sufficient of themselves for the preaching of the Truth" -Contra Gentiles 1,1
... but it's a matter of making sure that your interpretation is in keeping with the Church.
Blessings.
Scott I am trying to reason out how you might determine who is going to hell and who is going to purgatory. You are saying you pray for those that go to purgatory. How do you JUDGE THAT?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
Lev 19:15
Faith dear friend... simply faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
I don't know how some here can profess to know for CERTAIN that some go the hell, but then attack those who, based upon their faith in the divine mercy of God, pray for those who are not in hell.
So HOW do you figure out who's in hell and who's in purgatory?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
The Bible says that the road to heaven is narrow and that many go to hell so that is how it can be stated that it is certain that some go to hell. The point being that for ONE thing, if you are praying for somebody you assume to be in Purgatory when in actuality they are in hell that would make your prayers in vain which the Bible warns against.
Umm... I already told you: faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
"As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come."[St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31]
... and based upon faith that the person being prayed for is worthy of heaven, though in need of the "purgatorial fire" of Christ, we hope to intercede on their behalf.
I pray that one day this will be done for me!:D
I would add to Scott's comments, that the entire point is that it’s God's merciful and just will along with our willingness to accept his graces as determining factors who enters the Kingdom of Heaven. Catholics don’t determine for themselves (similar to the “once saved and always saved” way of thinking) who enters the Kingdom of Heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
CCC 682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.
JoeT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
That’s a curious question. Would you number who enter Hell, Purgatory, or Heaven? Or, is it that you would number yourself among the elect?
If nothing else you would be quite busy keeping all three gates.
JoeT
Okay why would the Bible say let the dead bury the dead if you were then suppose to then pray for people AFTER they died?
Luke 9:59-60
* "And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
* Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God."
Psalms 88:10-12
* "Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
* Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
* Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? "
Hebrews 9:26-27
* "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
* And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
That was not the point at all whatsoever! The point is that you could very well be praying IN VAIN for loved ones to get out of purgatory when they are actually in hell. The Bible says do not pray in vain.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
How does that work? Faith that alcoholic Uncle Joe, whom I couldn't stand, is in hell, so no prayers? Faith that sweet Aunt Maud who loved to bake is in purgatory, so let's all pray for her?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
To do judgement of another is to do harm to yourself and that person. So should you judge that someone is going to hell? .. I think notQuote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
Should you judge they are going to purgatory? .. It would again cause harm to yourself as well as that person.
Faith in God, His grace is a balance of truth without flaw or blemish.
Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.
James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
No, I would be more inclined to pray for both of them. I would tend to trust in God's mercy and assume both made it to Heaven. Especially pray for Joe!
The point is WE don't determine who gets to Heaven and who doesn't. Catholic thinking is to leave that to God's merciful and just will.
JoeT
Joe, your statement of reason is that when he comes at the end of time to judge.. That is exactly so.. Christ will judge.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I am asking how Scott reasons out that He himself can judge and make the decision to pray for who he determined went to hell or purgatory. And again scripture warns us not to judge... becuase we can be a stumbling block to ourselves and to whom we have judged. Plus scripture says you judge another ye can be condemned..
Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.
James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
The door is Christ..
If both made it to heaven, why would I pray for them?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Sndbay Scott is saying he would even pray for the ones that went to hell therefore he would not have to judge.
You mean scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
Amen Joe...Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
No, scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
Men in the church can be wrong, but God's word is never wrong.
Seems like all this deciding and praying could take up a lot of time and could get confusing--and be fruitless. Isn't there a Bible verse that says prayers for the dead are not necessary, that they already have been judged?
Faith in what?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
So then what's the point of praying for them?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Correct!Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I pray for everyone!
... and sometimes it's important to remember that there is no such thing as a "wasted prayer".:)
Why? Will this change God's mind?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
Point two you got there!!
If they pray for them while in Purgatory where does it get the one in Purgatory anyway since they are going to heaven anyway?
Oh good point #1 was
Although that has been answeredQuote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
And yet he said those determined in hell there is no help..? If there is no judgement on his part how was it determined? What prayer is said? One prayer for all or two different prayers?Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Note we can not bring salvation to anyone... so why is purgatory a teaching?
Love.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Nope.Quote:
Will this change God's mind?
Thanks for asking.
I'm beginning to think all this praying for dead people is more for the pray-er than for the dead people. For instance, I didn't like alcoholic Uncle Joe when he was alive, so I pray for him after he dies so I feel better and less guilty about disliking him. Or I pray for sweet Aunt Maud who always baked cookies for me. She's probably in heaven now, but who knows. Wherever she is, I loved her a lot and praying for her makes me feel good.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
So all is done as an act of self indulgence? That's the reasoning?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
We've been told we don't know where anyone is, so we pray for them all, but the praying won't necessarily change God's mind. So what is left? Scott had said to show love.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
YEP! That is whatQuote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
ScottRC
Quote:
Why?
Love.
Quote:
Will this change God's mind?
Nope.
Thanks for asking.
__________________
... sounds like to me.
I am all for showing love and in the pureness of heart. But there comes a point when your faith, in the Grace of God, is to recognize and acknowlodge His balance of truth . God' Will being done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
One of the stories in the bible was in David who brought flaws to his people, and God asked Him what punishment David wanted to accept for doing all that he had done wrong. David turned the choice to God, knowing that God would be of mercy and grace. Trusting in God's decision rather then risking your own.
These aren't my words, but with fear and trembling I'm working out salvation though the Mystical Body of Christ, the Catholic Church (Cf. Phil 2:12)Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
I can't speak for Scott, but I would respond by saying the Church doesn't “condemn” folk to Purgatory. If you read my post (-link-) carefully you'll see that it's not a place of condemnation; rather a state of being purified. If one selflessly loves God why object to a spiritual purification necessary to enter into a complete communion with God?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
JoeT
What Sndbay means by condemning them to purgatory is a figure of speech.
If one selflessly loves God why object to a spiritual purification necessary to enter into a complete communion with God?
Why accept a place that is one step between what the Bible says to die in the body is to be present with Christ? Why add a step to one + one equals two?
Joe in all honesty it's because the rather a state of being purified already took place on the cross. At that moment finished... done.. That is what Chirst did.. To suggest differently or doing it again is to question the worthyness of what already took place.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
The statement I made is backed by scripture.. Should you judge another NO! .. lest ye be condemned.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
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