Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Perhaps you ought to consult a Greek lexicon.

---

I have. And you know what, just because I consulted a Greek lexicon, that doesn't magically make me an expert in Greek. I don't know the grammar, the meaning or the context. I don't even know the pronunciation. I have to admit, in all humility, that the experts who interpreted the Bibles know better than I do, the language they were interpreting into English.

How about you? Do you know better than the experts who interpreted the KJV and the NIV? What are your Greek credentials? Are you a native Greek speaker or an expert in Greek?

Quote:

---

Then you must be a Mormon (ccc #460 says that men become God)

---

460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":"For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 460

This is from Scripture:

John 10 35 If he called them gods, to whom to word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Jesus said that. But I forgot, you don't believe what Jesus said if it doesn't agree with your theology.

Here's another confirmation of that doctrine:
2 Peter 1 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.

Quote:

---

Not now. Nohelp4u explained it nicely

---

Obviously she follows your doctrine. Not the Scriptures because the Scriptures don't say what you say.

Quote:

---

I am not interested in either a protestant or Catholic view. I focus on what scripture says. If you want to argue with protestants, go for it.

---

No, you focus on what you can make Scipture say.

Quote:

---

Do you think that acts catch fire? Hmmm could solve the energy crisis!

---

I believe Scripture.

1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

This is more proof that you like to put your own spin on what Scripture says.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

Lets see, a soul in hell calls Abraham "Father", begs Abraham for salvation for his brothers. Abraham turns around and addresses this soul as "son".

Since when are the souls in heaven and hell on such good terms? I thought there was a war going on?

Sincerely,

De Maria

---

Again this man did not receave forgiveness and then he asked if he could just go back once to warn his brothers that there punishment lay ahead but the thing is this was also denied to him. Understand that those in heven and hell understand why each are where they are. They do not judge each other becaues they have already been judged meaning that there is no means of hostility toward each other! This preconseption that hell is out of God's control and that Hell is at war with Heven is a serous fallicy

Ps. Heven and Hell are not at war God made hell as a prison and whoever enters does not leave God is in 100% control of Heven and hell

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I am referring to what I and others here posted. Some posted the location of the passages for those who bother to look them up and the others I mentioned posted that passages word for word.
I thought that you read what I clearly said.
But it appears that you did not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

Okay Fred, despite posting my previous response, and pointing you to my previous post, apparently you missed my response to your copy and paste of someone else's website, so here it is again.

Lk 12:59

Let's look at the context:

Luke 12:57-59
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. This is one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

1 Cor 3:15

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

1 Pet 1:7

1 Peter 1:5-10
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.
NKJV

This refers to faith being tested. We find a lot in scripture about our faith being tested (I.e. Heb 11), but every case refers to what we go through while alive. Nothing here speaks of men being burned.

Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.

Matt 5:23-26
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you are thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. Yet another one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

Heb 12:6-11 ... God's painful discipline.

Look at the context:

Heb 12:3-6
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
NKJV

The context is referring to how God deals with us while we are alive in the flesh. Nothing whatsoever could bend this to make it refer to purgatory or after death.

Mt 12:32 ... no forgiveness ... nor in the age to come.

Matt 12:31-32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.

1 Pet 3:19 ... purgatory (limbo?).

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV

This refers to Abraham's bosom as we have previously discussed.

Rev 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

Rev 21:26-27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
NKJV

Right. For those who are saved, Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness, not purgatory.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Heb 12:23 ... souls in heaven are perfect.

Heb 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
NKJV

This refers to the perfection that comes through Christ's salvation, not purgatory.

Col 1:24

Col 1:24-27
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
NKJV

Note that this is “in my flesh”, not after death.

2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.

2 Sam 12:12-15
13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." 15 Then Nathan departed to his house.
NKJV

Suffering in the flesh, not after death.

2 Mac 12:43-46 ... sacrifice for the dead.

2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."

2 Tim 1:14-18
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day--and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
NKJV

“In that day” refers to the fact that he is not yet dead.

1 Jn 5:14-17 ... mortal/venial sins

1 John 5:14-17
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
NKJV

We cannot take scripture out of context.

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

There is one sin for which we need not pray because the is no forgiveness.

Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

Quote:

---

And since when do souls in the hell of the damned, in eternal punishment, seek to aid and comfort their brethren on earth?

---

Since Jesus told this story as one of his parables, to point out (taken from orthodox.net) that Our Holy Father Abraham, among his numerous virtues, was distinguished in the minds of the Jews for his hospitality. This is also associated with salvation.

"It may here be observed, that all who are offended by us are exposed to our view. But the rich man sees Lazarus not with any other righteous man, but in Abraham's bosom. For Abraham was full of love, but the man is convicted of cruelty. Abraham sitting before his door followed after those that passed by, and brought them into his house, the other turned away even them that abode within his gate." (St John Chrysostom)

To the world, the death of Lazarus, was a non-event. Someone had to grab him, because after all, he would start to smell, and throw him somewhere, into some potter's field. No one came to pray for him. No one cared. No one knew him. The rich man might have noticed after two or three weeks, "Oh the beggar is not there anymore. I don't have to step over him anymore. That's good". His death was of no consequence. It did not cause a ripple in the life of that time.

But he did NOT die alone, and his death was a matter of great rejoicing in the heavens, because the angels escorted him into Abraham's bosom. What does it say about those that die who are righteous, and the appearances, both in this world , and the REAL appearances in the next? Solomon says, "But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and there shall no torment touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure is taken for misery, And their going from us to be utter destruction: but they are in peace. For though they be punished in the sight of men, yet is their hope full of immortality. And having been a little chastised" ... Lazarus' wounds were a little bit of chastisement mind you. Don't look at the appearances, look at the truth! And "they shall be greatly rewarded: for God proved them, and found them worthy for himself. As gold in the furnace hath he tried them, and received them as a burnt offering. And in the time of their visitation they shall shine, and run to and fro like sparks among the stubble." (Wisdom 3:1 - 7) So it is with the righteous when they die. The world sees a false picture, but we know the truth.

The rich man's death, although accompanied by great fanfare in the world, with paid mourners, and the playing of flutes, was an unimportant event in the heavens. He was merely buried. This burial, in the bowels of the earth, is meant here to signify that he descending into the lowest depths of Hell.

"He (the rich man, Ed.) died then indeed in body, but his soul was dead before. For he did none of the works of the soul. All that warmth which issues from the love of our neighbor had fled, and he was more dead than his body. But no one is spoken of as having ministered to the rich man's burial as to that of Lazarus. Because when he lived pleasantly in the broad road, he had many busy flatterers; when he came to his end, all forsook him. For it simply follows, and was buried in hell. But his soul also when living was buried, enshrined in its body as it were in a tomb." (St John Chrysostom)

De Maria.
Right again.
I also believe what Scripture clearly says, not what some person wants it to say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Okay Fred, despite posting my previous response, and pointing you to my previous post, apparently you missed my response to your copy and paste of someone else's website, so here it is again.

Lk 12:59

Let's look at the context:

Luke 12:57-59
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. This is one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

1 Cor 3:15

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

1 Pet 1:7

1 Peter 1:5-10
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.
NKJV

This refers to faith being tested. We find a lot in scripture about our faith being tested (I.e. Heb 11), but each and every case refers to what we go through while alive. Nothing here speaks of men being burned.

Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.

Matt 5:23-26
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you are thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. Yet another one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

Heb 12:6-11 ... God's painful discipline.

Look at the context:

Heb 12:3-6
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
NKJV

The context is referring to how God deals with us while we are alive in the flesh. Nothing whatsoever could bend this to make it refer to purgatory or after death.

Mt 12:32 ... no forgiveness ... nor in the age to come.

Matt 12:31-32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.

1 Pet 3:19 ... purgatory (limbo?).

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV

This refers to Abraham's bosom as we have previously discussed.

Rev 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

Rev 21:26-27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
NKJV

Right. For those who are saved, Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness, not purgatory.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Heb 12:23 ... souls in heaven are perfect.

Heb 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
NKJV

This refers to the perfection that comes through Christ's salvation, not purgatory.

Col 1:24

Col 1:24-27
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
NKJV

Note that this is “in my flesh”, not after death.

2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.

2 Sam 12:12-15
13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." 15 Then Nathan departed to his house.
NKJV

Suffering in the flesh, not after death.

2 Mac 12:43-46 ... sacrifice for the dead.

2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."

2 Tim 1:14-18
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day--and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
NKJV

“In that day” refers to the fact that he is not yet dead.

1 Jn 5:14-17 ... mortal/venial sins

1 John 5:14-17
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
NKJV

We cannot take scripture out of context.

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

There is one sin for which we need not pray because the is no forgiveness.

Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

---

Exactly yet we are the ones that are not reading/getting what they are saying!! Go figure?? :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

De Maria.
Right again.
I also believe what Scripture clearly says, not what some person wants it to say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

Then I trust that you will look at what scripture actually says in those references that you copied and pasted from internet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

As you should know, there are several words in scripture used to describe hell.

Luke 16:23-24
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
NKJV

---

Yes, there are. And what does Hades mean in Greek?

Quote:

---

Notice the gulf?

---

Yes.

Quote:

---

Luke 16:25-27
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
NKJV

---

I agree that there is a gulf fixed between Purgatory and Heaven. But it is temporary.

Quote:

---

Who said that this was heaven? You are arguing a strawman.

---

No. But I've got you to admit that there is another place in the after life besides heaven and hell. Now you have admitted to Abraham's bosom and Hades.

Quote:

---

And so what if Abraham chose that word - who are you to judge him for doing so?

---

Not just Abraham chose a loving word but so did the Rich man in "hell"?

Quote:

---

I could not tell you. I have never been in hell. Have you? Thjat being the case, I'll accept the scriptural account.

---

Well, you've admitted this place is "hades". Now all you need to do is give us the Greek definition of the word.

Quote:

---

Can't avoid the nasty crack, can you?

---

Thanks for answering the questions this time. The "nasty crack" as you call it, was designed to enlighten you as to your past behavior. You usually ignore questions which we ask you. At least, that is my experience.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Tj3,
You interpret those passages your way. I do not and will not.
But as I said, that there is NO bible passages that PROVE the Purgatory does not exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

Yes, there are. And what does Hades mean in Greek?

---

Maria,

I cannot keep doing all your work for you. You eventually have to do some of your own. As we have stated before, hades is hell. And it is across a gulf from Abraham's Bosom (not the same place).

Quote:

---

I agree that there is a gulf fixed between Purgatory and Heaven. But it is temporary.

---

Ah, now you add your own private interpretation into it. There is no purgatory, nor anything that looks like purgatory here. That is the problem that you are and have been facing from the start.

Quote:

---

No. But I've got you to admit that there is another place in the after life besides heaven and hell. Now you have admitted to Abraham's bosom and Hades.

---

Not anymore.. that appears to be one of the points that you are missing. The other is that scripture has no description of purgatory here or anywhere else.

Quote:

---

Thanks for answering the questions this time. The "nasty crack" as you call it, was designed to enlighten you as to your past behavior. You usually ignore questions which we ask you. At least, that is my experience.

---

Maria,

I told you before, and you agreed with my approach - when your posts get to be too long, I pick what I think are the key points and respond to them.

To come back now and get nasty about that is at best inappropriate.

Now, I am under absolutely no obligation to play 20 questions with you. You are a grown woman - do your own work, argue your own points, and don't get nasty because someone doesn't do all your work for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
You interpret those passages your way. I do not and will not.
But as I said, that there is NO bible passages that PROVE the Purgatory does not exist.

---

I read and posted what the scripture says in context. Close your eyes to what it says if you will. That is indeed your choice.

Tj3,
I have told you before that I did not copy and paste those passages from the internet.
I first used then years ago during bible study classes long before I had a computer.
It make no difference really for you do a lot of copy and past work here and on other boards.
What are you, some privilege character who can copy and past but anyone else that does you try to belittle.
In doing so you just belittle yourself.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

Come now TJ. You know I was addressing Lilmkiss in that response. And Lilmkiss believes that Abraham's Bosom is in heaven.

---

You took what I said out of context. I do by no means believe this and FYI it was the waiting place where the people waiting for the coming of Jesus Christ's death on the cross and that is when they where preached to for 3 days and when't into Heven(including the crimanal on the right side of Jesus when he died I am shure you can find this scripture by yourself as further proof for my statement but here it is anyway.

The Crucifixion
26As they led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus. 27A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. 28Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29For the time will come when you will say, 'Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' 30Then
" 'they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!"
And to the hills, "Cover us!" '[d] 31For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?"
32Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."[e] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

35The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One."

36The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37and said, "If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself."

38There was a written notice above him, which read:|sc THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."


My question is why would Jesus say this if it was not true? Wouldn't he have said first you will spend time in pergatory then with me in heven?

Acura stop trying to make yourself look big I seen where you copyed and pasted and yes I have done the same but its all been from the bible >.< if you chose to understand what you where coping an pasting in context he would not have as much as a problem with it.

Dubble post sorry didn't mean to my comp was acting up

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

Yes, there are. And what does Hades mean in Greek?
Yes.
I agree that there is a gulf fixed between Purgatory and Heaven. But it is temporary.

No. But I've got you to admit that there is another place in the after life besides heaven and hell. Now you have admitted to Abraham's bosom and Hades.
Not just Abraham chose a loving word but so did the Rich man in "hell"?

Well, you've admitted this place is "hades". Now all you need to do is give us the Greek definition of the word.

Thanks for answering the questions this time. The "nasty crack" as you call it, was designed to enlighten you as to your past behavior. You usually ignore questions which we ask you. At least, that is my experience.

Sincerely,

De Maria

---

Ok, correct me where I’m wrong. Your interpretation of this parable depends on the understanding of what is meant by the word “Hades”; is that correct? The term used would have been clearly understood at the time, but understood quite differently today. This adds a new dimension I’ve never considered before. What’s more important I can’t find fault with it.

Thanks for the new understanding,

JoeT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
You interpret those passages your way. I do not and will not.
But as I said, that there is NO bible passages that PROVE the Purgatory does not exist.

---

The entire word of God saying that we are saved by grace and not works meaning that we are fogiven and the sin is no longer visible to him means that we go stright to heven and if we ignore this gift then we go stright to hell there is no between and see almost all my earlyer posts for scriptural proof.

Lilmekiss,
There is no bible passage that says we are save by faith alone.
There none that way we are save by works alone.'But there are many that say we are saved by the grace of God If we have faith an WORK that faith for a "faith without works is dead".
That has nothing to do with the fact that Purgatory does or does not exist.
There is NO passages that prove that Purgatory does not exist, nine zilch.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

There is no passage that proves Purgatory does exist so to me it is like trying to prove the flying spaghetti monster from the Bible

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

Lilmekiss,
There is no bible passage that says we are save by faith alone.

---

Huh? By grace are ye saved, through faith. It is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8,9

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Since Jesus told this story as one of his parables, to point out (taken from orthodox.net) that Our Holy Father Abraham, among his numerous virtues, was distinguished in the minds of the Jews for his hospitality. This is also associated with salvation.

"It may here be observed, that all who are offended by us are exposed to our view. But the rich man sees Lazarus not with any other righteous man, but in Abraham's bosom. For Abraham was full of love, but the man is convicted of cruelty. Abraham sitting before his door followed after those that passed by, and brought them into his house, the other turned away even them that abode within his gate." (St John Chrysostom)

To the world, the death of Lazarus, was a non-event. Someone had to grab him, because after all, he would start to smell, and throw him somewhere, into some potter's field. No one came to pray for him. No one cared. No one knew him. The rich man might have noticed after two or three weeks, "Oh the beggar is not there anymore. I don't have to step over him anymore. That's good". His death was of no consequence. It did not cause a ripple in the life of that time.

But he did NOT die alone, and his death was a matter of great rejoicing in the heavens, because the angels escorted him into Abraham's bosom. What does it say about those that die who are righteous, and the appearances, both in this world , and the REAL appearances in the next? Solomon says, "But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and there shall no torment touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure is taken for misery, And their going from us to be utter destruction: but they are in peace. For though they be punished in the sight of men, yet is their hope full of immortality. And having been a little chastised" ... Lazarus' wounds were a little bit of chastisement mind you. Don't look at the appearances, look at the truth! And "they shall be greatly rewarded: for God proved them, and found them worthy for himself. As gold in the furnace hath he tried them, and received them as a burnt offering. And in the time of their visitation they shall shine, and run to and fro like sparks among the stubble." (Wisdom 3:1 - 7) So it is with the righteous when they die. The world sees a false picture, but we know the truth.

The rich man's death, although accompanied by great fanfare in the world, with paid mourners, and the playing of flutes, was an unimportant event in the heavens. He was merely buried. This burial, in the bowels of the earth, is meant here to signify that he descending into the lowest depths of Hell.

"He (the rich man, Ed.) died then indeed in body, but his soul was dead before. For he did none of the works of the soul. All that warmth which issues from the love of our neighbor had fled, and he was more dead than his body. But no one is spoken of as having ministered to the rich man's burial as to that of Lazarus. Because when he lived pleasantly in the broad road, he had many busy flatterers; when he came to his end, all forsook him. For it simply follows, and was buried in hell. But his soul also when living was buried, enshrined in its body as it were in a tomb." (St John Chrysostom)

---

Good job Wondergirl!! I am happy because like a good Catholic you have searched the Church Fathers to see how they who were closest to the Apostles interpreted the Scriptures. You will find that all of them were thoroughly Catholic in their understanding of Scripture.

In Homily #41, St. John Chrysostom also said:
Let us then give them aid and perform commemoration for them. For if the children of Job were purged by the sacrifice of their father, why dost thou doubt that when we too offer for the departed, some consolation arises to them? since God is wont to grant the petitions of those who ask for others. And this Paul signified saying, “that in a manifold Person your gift towards us bestowed by many may be acknowledged with thanksgiving on your behalf.” (2 Cor. i. 11.) Let us not then be weary in giving aid to the departed, both by offering on their behalf and obtaining prayers for them: for the common Expiation of the world is even before us. Therefore with boldness do we then intreat for the whole world, and name their names with those of martyrs, of confessors, of priests. For in truth one body are we all, though some members are more glorious than others; and it is possible from every source to gather pardon321321 συγγνωμήν. for them, from our prayers, from our gifts in their behalf, from those whose names are named with theirs. Why therefore dost thou grieve?
NPNF1-12. Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Therefore, since St. John Chrysostom is your authority.

"Again we pray for the repose of the soul(s) of the servant(s) of God, departed this life; and that he (she, they) may be pardoned all his (her, their) sins, both voluntary and involuntary." (From Service Books of the Orthodox Church, Vol. I: the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom).

Do you believe in prayer for the dead? If so, then you are very close to believing in Purgatory.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

St. John Chrysostom

Do you believe in prayer for the dead?

---

Did St. John Chrysostom believe in purgatory? That is not mentioned in what I quoted. No, I do not pray to the dead nor do I believe in purgatory.

Lets think about it this way, I would rather live Holy, Righteous, and true to Jesus and believe in only heaven and hell (since there is biblical proof for both) than to live my life in sin, and disregard Jesus as my savior and "HOPE" there is a purgatory so I won't have to spend eternity in hell. Eternally with out the presence of God!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rwb1057

Lets think about it this way, I would rather live Holy, Righteous, and true to Jesus and believe in only heaven and hell (since there is biblical proof for both) than to live my life in sin, and disregard Jesus as my savior and "HOPE" there is a purgatory so I won't have to spend eternity in hell.

---

I guess you have not been paying attention to the thread... NO ONE in purgatory goes to hell.... and if you have been living a life worthy of hell, that's where you go ---> not to heaven.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottRC

I guess you have not been paying attention to the thread.... NO ONE in purgatory goes to hell.... and if you have been living a life worthy of hell, that's where you go ---> not to heaven.

---

He didn't say that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

He didn't say that.

---

Okey dokey.

But he did say "to live my life in sin, and disregard Jesus as my savior and "HOPE" there is a purgatory so I won't have to spend eternity in hell"... and this is not even CLOSE to the teaching on purgatory, so I don't know what his point actually is then...

If one were to live their life in sin and disregard Jesus as their savior they would most likely go to hell... so again, I'm not sure what this has to do with purgatory, which only deals with people who are going to HEAVEN.

Thanks for clearing this up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Did St. John Chrysostom believe in purgatory? That is not mentioned in what I quoted. No, I do not pray to the dead nor do I believe in purgatory.

---

The point is that Chrysostom DID advocate prayers for the dead:

"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice (Job 1:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them." (St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians c. 392 A.D.)

"Weep for those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their own souls, who had the power to wash away their sins and did not will to do it. Let us weep for them, let us assist them [the deceased] to the extant of our ability, let us think of some assistance for them, small as it may be, yet let us somehow assist them. But how, and in what way? By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial Victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf." (St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians c. 402 A.D.)


From this you should understand:

1. Those in heaven do not need consolation... they are in HEAVEN!
2. Those in hell can not be helped at all... they are lost.
3. Sooooo.... prayers for the dead are for those who are in a state of purification, who need consolation and who will eventually be in heaven---> purgatory.:)

JOB 1:5

WHERE do you get that Jobs sons were dead at this point??

It says

And his possession was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a family exceedingly great: and this man was great among all the people of the east. 4 And his sons went, and made a feast by houses, every one in his day. And sending, they called their three sisters, to eat and drink with them. And made a feast by houses... That is, each made a feast in his own house and had his day, inviting the others, and their sisters. 5 And when the days of their feasting were gone about, Job sent to them, and sanctified them: and rising up early, offered holocausts for every one of them. For he said: Lest perhaps my sons have sinned, and have blessed God in their hearts. So did Job all days.

If your RCC gets this means Job sacrificed anything to his dead sons then it further proves to me that they twist scripture and I HAVE to agree with Tjs that we are not the ones doing the twisting NOR are we the ones doing private interpretation.

It isn't until Job 1:18 his family dies.

Clearly from what I read from Fred's understands is that by the Grace of God, who is Chirst, we are saved. The " if " added to the saving grace is to assure the understanding of a double minded person, which means ( evil doing - righteous belief) They will not enter heaven.. This is true...

What I find not true is the post #504 Scott just mentioned---> Sooooo... prayers for the dead are for those who are in a state of purification, who need consolation and who will eventually be in heaven---> purgatory

NO NO NO..That statement Scott, does suggest that a person or people can work out their own salvation by the help of man. It just is not true.. Each of us has to be accountable for their own actions, and belief. Only by Christ, who is the Grace of God can each be saved. It is vanity to think once someone is dead, {{you}} as a man can help save them.

JOHN 1:13 speaking of being born again
Says
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

MEANING that NO man can will you into heaven while you are alive, while you are dead, nor can they pray you into heaven, nor sacrifice anything on your behalf to get you out of purgatory.

Reading that any of that is possible is reading stuff into verses. I prefer to not believe in Purgatory BECAUSE you HAVE to read too much into the verses AND take them out of context!

People CAN pray for you to come to Christ but the rest is on the individual.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sndbay

It is vanity to think once someone is dead, {{you}} as a man can help save them.

---

Some of us believe "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." and some of us don't... :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottRC

Some of us believe "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." and some of us don't..... :cool:

---

Like I already said YES that is true and sndbay DOES believe that I am 100% sure
BUT that means the prayer of the righteous man availeth much MEANING DURING this life time. The Bible clearly teaches that once you die that is it heaven or hell nothing in between.
Getting Purgatory out of anything is reading things into the Bible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N0help4u

BUT that means the prayer of the righteous man availeth much MEANING DURING this life time.

---

I guess God forget to make this clear in the bible, eh?

Quote:

---

The Bible clearly teaches that once you die that is it heaven or hell nothing in between.

---

Right... purgatory is not "between" anything.

Quote:

---

Getting Purgatory out of anything is reading things into the Bible.

---

Ah, I get it... Catholic interpretation is "reading things into the Bible" and non-Catholic interpretation is simply the Bible speaking for itself... rrrrrrright.;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

Lilmekiss,
There is no bible passage that says we are save by faith alone.
There none that way we are save by works alone.'But there are many that say we are saved by the grace of God If we have faith an WORK that faith for a "faith without works is dead".
That has nothing to do with the fact that Purgatory does or does not exist.
There is NO passages that prove that Purgatory does not exist, nine zilch.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

AGAIN THIS IS A DANGEROUS FALICY yes we are saved by faith and faith alone not by workds according to

Ephesians 2

Made Alive in Christ
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

So please do read your Bible and search what you are saying is correct because this in its self is a 100% contradiction what you have stated and was disproven by these verses.

(added part)and when it comes to the verse that said "faith without works is dead" "and works without faith are dead". Was a statement that you could not be in
Christ if you produce no froot and the second stament means that without faith that the froot that you produce is bad that's what this is saying it is by no means a way to say that you have to work to go to heven but it is a means to say that if you are with christ that you will do good works without thinking about what you can get out of it.

May God enter you mind soul and heart and let him teach you the truth so that no man will fool you.
Your praying brother in Christ
Lilmkiss

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottRC

Okey dokey.

But he did say "to live my life in sin, and disregard Jesus as my savior and "HOPE" there is a purgatory so I won't have to spend eternity in hell"... and this is not even CLOSE to the teaching on purgatory, so I don't know what his point actually is then...

If one were to live their life in sin and disregard Jesus as their savior they would most likely go to hell... so again, I'm not sure what this has to do with purgatory, which only deals with people who are going to HEAVEN.

Thanks for clearing this up.

---

They will go to hell plain and simple.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lilmkiss

They will go to hell plain and simple.

---

I don't care to limit the divine mercy of God... only He truly knows who is lost.

Peace be with you.

I agree don't limit the divine mercy of God and that is ONE of the reasons I can't see him setting up a purgatory cause to me it is like saying my almighty powers are limited and so therefore have to go through this channel.

Sort of like in the Wizard of Oz when he sent them for the witches broom so they could go back to Kansas when all he had to do was send them back to Kansas!

Not sure where you guys are up to, I have only read up to page 48, so here is some more information.
Abrahams bosom.
Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and was using their teaching to explain a greater truth, (an allegory perhaps?), the Pharisees taught that there were three places, 1.Abraham's bosom, 2. Under the throne of Glory, 3. In the garden of Eden.(Gr. Paradise)
Speaking of death, they would say," This day he sits in Abraham's bosom.'
(Lightfoot, 'Works' vol xii, pp 159-63)
The Pharisees also taught that in life, two men may be "coupled together ", and one sees the other after death, and conversations take place.
(Lightfoot)
The Pharisees gave long stories of similar imaginary conversations and discourses.
(Lightfoot)

In Ephesians 4

7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.
8This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."
9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

I 1 Peter

18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

I'm not sure if these were the same captives that Jesus set free, according to Isaiah 61, but in John 5, Jesus says -

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

The time had come THEN for the dead to hear His voice, and those that believed in Him from before time past, that is, the promise of His coming and had faith in him as their Messiah, these were the prisoners that were set free and led in His train to heaven.

These are those that were risen from the dead in Mathew 27

50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

These were Old Testament folk, who were taken to Heaven with Jesus, (note, no purgatory).

There is more, but I'm going to bed, night folks.
Peace.:)

Once again for any one to claim private interpretation, It seems odd that I would also have the same 'private interpretation' on the Bible as Peter Wilson. Odd how the Holy Spirit shows us the same thing and it is considered 'private interpretation'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I agree don't limit the divine mercy of God and that is ONE of the reasons I can't see him setting up a purgatory cause to me it is like saying my almighty powers are limited and so therefore have to go through this channel.

---

I can understand that... and I appreciate your comments... we can disagree (this topic certainly does not have anything to do with our relationship with Christ) because in the end, I think everyone has to admit we're just "guessing" and none of us have any special insight into the mystery that is our life after death.

Quote:

---

Once again for any one to claim private interpretation, It seems odd that I would also have the same 'private interpretation' on the Bible as Peter Wilson. Odd how the Holy Spirit shows us the same thing and it is considered 'private interpretation'

---

Again, it seems that it's only "odd" when it's a non-Catholic opinion... when Catholics agree with each other and the last 2,000 or so years of Catholic teaching we're just following the "traditions of man"-----> and when you folks do it, you have "divine revelation".

Arians made up more than 50% of the Christian faith at one point... so 'private' means independent of Apostolic authority, be it one person or one million.