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Originally Posted by Tj3

Whether there is agreement amongst people who profess to be Christians is not the issue. Indeed when you have two groups, one who holds strictly to what God said in His written word, and others who add to it by adding denominational traditions and other sources, you will, of necessity, have differences

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So are you saying the christians that hold strictly to what God said in his written word are correct and those that add denominational traditions etc. are wrong.

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That is why God gave us His written word to adhere to - it never changes. What Christianity truly is is not what different men and women believe, but rather what the Bible teaches and we are to be conforming our beliefs to what the Bible says.

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That is putting a lot of eggs in one basket. You only assume that whoever was transcribing God's word got it right.

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BTW, no Christian ever converted anyone. What scripture tells us to do is to preach God's word, and it is the Holy Spirit who converts by working on the heart.

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I see what you are saying, but I believe you know what I mean. You don't convert, you just preach what you believe to be true, then just pray that "it takes hold" and the persons heart is changed.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

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I see what you are saying, but I believe you know what I mean. You don't convert, you just preach what you believe to be true, then just pray that "it takes hold" and the persons heart is changed.

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Close, but not quite. The Holy Spirit is real, and works on people's hearts. Without the work of the Holy Spirit, no one can come to God.

John 6:43-44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
NKJV

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Originally Posted by Maggie 3

Paul tells about an event that must happen befor the great day of the Lord arrives.
2 Thessalonians 2:3&4 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for thatDay will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

The "falling away" must accur. Most Bible scholars believe this refers to a "great apostasy"
of the church, when a large portion of the church decends into heresy and ungodly living.

This sounds like we can lose our salvation, we all have choices until our time is up.
Make sure you are staying close to Jesus in prayer and keeping His teaching.

Love and Blessings Maggie 3

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Maggie,

I don't believe you can lose your salvation but I do believe that many people claim to be Christians and they are not. There are many denomination who have changed sound doctrine to make their congregation happy. In 1962 there was a gallup poll done on whether people believe the bible is absolute truth... something like 84% said yes... same poll in 1992 and it had gone down to 30% that believe the bible is absolute truth. I feel certain the statistics would be less than 30% now. It is happening before our eyes... Those that are saved remain saved but people are perishing for lack of knowledge and our churches across America ( in general) refuse to teach truth. That is my opinion.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Maggie,

I don't believe you can lose your salvation but i do believe that many people claim to be Christians and they are not.

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I'd like to be clear about terminology. When a person "loses" something, they not aware of when it went away, or where. I do not believe that a person can lose their salvation. There are some who believe that if you sin, knowingly or unknowingly, that you can cease to be saved. There are some who will say that we cannot know that we are saved (IFred has told me many times that this is his position), even though scripture says that we can have assurance of salvation.

If we can have assurance of salvation, and if, as scripture says, no one can snatch us out of His hand, then we cannot "lose" our salvation. We can, however, knowingly turn away from it.

Who, according to scripture is free? It is those who are saved - can we then say that it is only those who are unsaved that are free enough to accept Christ, but those who are freed in Christ cannot decide to turn away? That would mean that it is only the unsaved who have freewill, which is contrary to scripture which says that the unsaved are slaves to sin, but we are bondservants to Christ.

Tom,

I hate that we disagree on this... drives me NUTS. But you will have to changes your position... lol because I think you are wrong. ;)

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Originally Posted by classyT

Tom,

I hate that we disagree on this...drives me NUTS. but you will have to changes your position....lol because I think you are wrong. ;)

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We can't agree on everything ;)

I think instead of debating who is saved or not, who lost their salvation, or not, who is following the scripture the way it was intended or not, that we should just live each day to the best of our ability.

The percentage of people believing that the bible is the absolute truth is going down for a reason.
People are getting smarter, more enlightened, trust in their heart and spirit more than what is written in a book that may or may not even be true. I see it as a step in the right direction.

Just adhering to a book of rules for fear of going to hell is not what it's all about. Living your life in a way that contributes to the goodness, love and support to our fellow man is what should be our goal. What happens after we leave this planet is anybodies guess. I happen to believe that goodness yields goodness. I think that somehow you get what you give. This is not my motive though. When you are truly in tune with what is right, you do it because anything else just feels bad. The after life will take care of itself. Make THIS world a better place.

Maggie 3,
The Falling Away. Very good post, that.
I agree.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

OLOR="DarkRed"]This is actually the age of aquarius in which people will no longer look to the church for answers, but the will look for the truth within themselves and connect to the light of the creator which dwells with each human being.



Jesus greatest commandment love thy neighbor as thyself, his sole purpose was to come to earth and show us how to live and to always embrace and show love to on another.

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Originally Posted by lighterrr

OLOR="DarkRed"]This is actually the age of aquarius in which people will no longer look to the church for answers, but the wil look for the truth within themselves and connect to the light of the creator which dwells with each human being.

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Scripture speaks of it as the great falling away.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Scripture speaks of it as the great falling away.

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Falling away that's a nice way of putting it I a not sue what that mean? I view it as the human races time to tap into the light of the creator within and evolve and have a more elevated level of counciousness

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Originally Posted by lighterrr

falling away thats a nice way of putting it I a not sue what that mean?

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It means that people are turning away from God and His word.

lighterrr,
Jesus main purpose of coming to earth was for the salvation of mankind for eternal punishment.
His second purpose was to teach us by word and deed all that the bible tells us He did.
Yes, the falling away has begun. The latest USA statistics show that the USA is beginning to do what Europe has already done and that is to switch more and more to secularism.
The statistics show that 10% fewer people claim to believe in God.
How very sad that is.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Folks... I think this thread has gone too long.

Much had been said here, much had been read. People shared their personal experiences, their thinkings, their ideas, their interpretations and their opinions. After all this, I think we should by now have be clear on what is salvation and how to get it? Can we lose it or can we not? We now know what is sin and intentional sin. We know now how to deal with the present or past sin.

I think we should stop this thread and start a new discussion because one thing is for sure that there is no instrument in theology or science which can tell us whether we have salvation or not. It is known to God only and we will know it when time comes.

So let's continue listen to the "tiny voice", and continue doing the things which would make us hold our heads high when we see Jesus.

Triund,
You said...
"So let's continue listen to the "tiny voice", and continue doing the things which would make us hold our heads high when we see Jesus."
That's good advice for this or any thread.
Fred

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Originally Posted by cozyk

I think instead of debating who is saved or not, who lost their salvation, or not, who is following the scripture the way it was intended or not, that we should just live each day to the best of our ability.

The percentage of people believing that the bible is the absolute truth is going down for a reason.
People are getting smarter, more enlightened, trust in their heart and spirit more than what is written in a book that may or may not even be true. I see it as a step in the right direction.

Just adhering to a book of rules for fear of going to hell is not what it's all about. Living your life in a way that contributes to the goodness, love and support to our fellow man is what should be our goal. What happens after we leave this planet is anybodies guess. I happen to believe that goodness yields goodness. I think that somehow you get what you give. This is not my motive though. When you are truly in tune with what is right, you do it because anything else just feels bad. The after life will take care of itself. Make THIS world a better place.

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LOL... people are getting SMARTER that is the reason people don't believe the Bible is absolute truth. Well of course I disagree with that thought because it doesn't jive with the Bible or God's thoughts. But it did make me chuckle.

You know there is nothing new under the sun. People have gotten "smarter" in the past too! In fact the bible records in the OT that everyone did what was"right" in their own eyes... you should check it out. The Lord wasn't impressed with their enlightenment and step in the right direction either.

Incidentally the bible is NOT a book of rules and fear. It is all about Love, Mercy, forgiveness, redemption... ect. The only reason one would consider it a book of rules and fear is if they want to bypass God's thoughts and HIS plan by doing what they consider proper, moral. Good and SMARTER. The bible warns us... doing this is NOT smart.

I guess it all comes down to this question... do we really think that we are good enough to stand before a Holy God without Jesus Christ? As for me, I'm not standing before the Father WITHOUT Him.

The work of salvation is totally Gods. "The author and finisher of our faith."IF there was something you could do to "earn" salvation, then there would also be something you could do to "not earn" salvation. "No man comes to the Father but that the Holy Spirit draws him."

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Originally Posted by classyT

LOL....people are getting SMARTER that is the reason people don't believe the Bible is absolute truth. well of course I disagree with that thought because it doesn't jive with the Bible or God's thoughts. But it did make me chuckle.

ya know there is nothing new under the sun. People have gotten "smarter" in the past too! In fact the bible records in the OT that everyone did what was"right" in their own eyes....you should check it out. The Lord wasn't impressed with their enlightenment and step in the right direction either.

Incidently the bible is NOT a book of rules and fear. It is all about Love, Mercy, forgiveness, redemption....ect. The only reason one would consider it a book of rules and fear is if they want to bypass God's thoughts and HIS plan by doing what they consider proper, moral. good and SMARTER. The bible warns us....doing this is NOT smart.

I guess it all comes down to this question ....do we really think that we are good enough to stand before a Holy God without Jesus Christ? As for me, I'm not standing before the Father WITHOUT Him.

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cozyk

I agree the age of aquarius which meaning enlightenment is among us and that is great because people will start to as why and question the bible. That is great, you know history tells us that groups that questioned the bible in the past where often frowned upon, but now the internet allows anyone to access information on spirituality and a lot of people are now minding information that makes sense. Really salvation is not found in ANY religion or church, the very salvation you seek is and has always been and will always be within you.

The gift of salvation is love from the Father, and in return we are asked for love. A willing heart to love, and be obedient to HIS will.

The Bible is the WORD made flesh that showed us the way. The fear would be that we of choice are blinded, and do not hear HIS voice.

The rules are the light of HIS will, to walk according to HIS teaching and eating from what would be in likeness to the Tree of Life rather then being as Eve and Adam were shown to have done.

Christ set us free from the curse, and has given us the free will choice to walk in righteousness and as servants of God. (1 Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive )

Dominion and power was given to Christ, and He will lead the way. Choice is to follow HIM, and not take of sin.. Repent go forward in HIS mercy and forgivenss , and do it out of a heart of love for HIS love.

Prayer of heart in asking that you can be all that He created you to be, in HIS image of righteousness. Put on the armor of HIS strength and ask that evil bow down and flee from you.

May HIS grace hold stedfast in each heart unto godliness known in the gospel.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Triund,
You said....
"So let's continue listen to the "tiny voice", and continue doing the things which would make us hold our heads high when we see Jesus."
That's good advice for this or any thread.
Fred

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Thanks Fred.

God bless you,

Richard