So then I don't need faith either? (That's a string.)Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
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So then I don't need faith either? (That's a string.)Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
The Blood of the Covenant enables us to obey perfectly:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
To do His Will is to obey.
That is a false Gospel.Quote:
There is a difference here. Those who believe in the Biblical gospel depend upon obedience to the gospel for salvation and the fact that Jesus sacrifice on the cross pays the full price with no works from us required.
The true Gospel, which is taught in the Bible, expects us to work in response to the Grace of God in us.
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them
Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
That's your gospel. We simply obey God. God can never be repayed.Quote:
Those who hold to the works gospel believe that the works of obedience are required, which places you back under the law. Once you believe that it is YOU paying even part through your works, you are back under the law and must obey perfectly.
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
As for us and our Catholic Family, we will serve the Lord.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I just want to call special attention to this verse.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
THE WORK is finished. He finished THE WORK on the cross. Faith plus NUTTIN. THAT is what you need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
He finished HIS work on the Cross.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Akoue,
He finished THE ONLY WORK.. the ONLY sacrifice, the ONLY beggotten son... the ONLY lamb... LOL... we can fight all night if you want to. ;)
No, classyT, I don't want to fight. I just wish that someone who thinks it's completely obvious that faith alone saves would take the time to go through all the Scripture De Maria and I have cited and explain to me why it's stupid to think otherwise. I'm not trying to challenge you--I'm not saying it has to be you. It's just that James 2 (to name just one of the VERY many passages that have been offered now) sure seems to say that works are required in order to have a living faith. And I can't seem to get anyone to explain to me how I'm wrong to read it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I've been told that this has been explained to me, but I've read through this thread now more than once and I can't seem to find any posts that take what I've said about Scripture and explains clearly to me what I've done wrong. So, in the absence of that, slogans don't carry much water with me.
DeMaria:
What does “indwelling” mean? Where does it come from in Scripture? And finally, how does it correspond to our Catholic faith? Is this connected to “once saved always saved” theology? Is it connected to predestination? Do you have to be indwelled before you are saved? I'm really lost on this one – to me it's as foreign as a Yankee in cotton pick'en season.
JoeT
Indwelling is after you are saved you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit and many people get spiritual wisdom, discernment and things like that. They can feel the Holy Spirit 'living' within them.
That is partly why Christians have the confidence to say they are going to heaven.
And where does this come from in Scripture?Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
All through Acts for one.
But throughout the New Testament
Its not Catholic terminology, but it is Catholic Teaching. It means that the we received the Holy Spirit in BaptismQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Acts Of Apostles 2 38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
and the Holy Spirit remains with us:
1 Corinthians 6 19 Or know you not, that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God; and you are not your own?
I hope that answers those three questions.
I think so. In my opinion, it is quite a reasonable misunderstanding. Who would dream that someone in whom the Holy Spirit dwells could commit sin and fall away?Quote:
Is this connected to “once saved always saved” theology?
However, the "once saved always saved" theology confuses me as well. How is one saved then unsaved? How were they saved at all if they wound up in hell anyway?
Yes. Those predestined are they who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That is also why they are considered saved.Quote:
Is it connected to predestination?
Yes. That is why many Protestants don't consider "water" baptism necessary. And that is why they frequently use the example of the just Cornelius in Acts 10, who received the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.Quote:
Do you have to be indwelled before you are saved?
They jump to the conclusion that means that he was saved BEFORE baptism. But the Scripture doesn't say that at all.
As Elizabeth Bennet once said: Perhaps you should take your aunt's advice and practice?. ;)Quote:
I’m really lost on this one – to me it’s as foreign as a Yankee in cotton pick’en season.
I can't believe I just said that. Can you tell I have two daughters? I guess they've got Dad wrapped around their little finger.
Sincerely,
De Maria
“Dwell” is used 241 times in the Douay-Rheims. I only found two references to dwelling in, defining a possession of sorts. The others all referred to a place of habitat.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Romans 8: 8 And they who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, but the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Wisdom 1: 4 For wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins. 5 For the Holy Spirit of discipline will flee from the deceitful, and will withdraw himself from thoughts that are without understanding, and he shall not abide when iniquity cometh in.
Wisdom seems to indicate that you must be holy before indwelling takes place. So how do you become holy without the Holy Spirit?
Now you've really confused me!
If indwelling comes after one is saved where is the motivating force to become possessed by the Holy Spirit? And, if you are indwelled, does this negate the will? The only grantee of redemption is stated in John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. Does indwelling supersede Christ’s promise, and if so where is it in Scripture?
JoeT
So indwelling is a feeling? That's it? A psychological state? And what lets me know that it is the Holy Spirit and not Satan presenting himself as "an angel of light"?Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
All right, now I have to apologize for using the feminine pronoun when referring to you on earlier posts. Oops.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Ok, I get it now.
Ok, Ok, I can take a hint too! Sometimes.
JoeT
That's fine, but that doesn't appear to me to be the way they've been using it (although, in the absence of any careful definition its hard to pin their usage down). It looked to me at times like a grab-bag notion without clear boundaries. I don't wish to quarrel with you, but I'm not so sure that what they have in mind is in fact quite in line with Catholic teaching (although I'll defer since, as I say, I can't get a clear sense from the uses to which its been put what a definition of the view would look like... and I don't think it's entirely my fault).Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Is it connected with the once saved always saved?
They do believe in the indwelling but it is also believed by other Christian groups that do not believe in once saved always saved.
You aren't wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
When I said the idea is Catholic Teaching, I meant the bare minimum idea that we receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism and that the Holy Spirit remains (dwells) in us.
However, the other assumptions that they add to that belief are as varied as their denominations (see Nohelp4u's reply above) and most of those are definitely opposed to Catholic Teaching.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Time for a quiz?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
De Maria, N0help,
Many thanks. That helps. I was thrown by all the accretions and suppressed premises, but now I get a better sense what the view is at least supposed to look like in a general way.
But scripture is clear - you have not and you cannot. Further scripture says anyone who claims to have done so, other than Jesus Himself is a liar. So your gospel is a gospel that condemns all to hell by making impossible demands.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Whereas the gospel of the Bible is one that commands us to obey, but recognizes that we fail and Jesus blood covers all our unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV
I don't like your gospel. I'll stick with the Bible.
After hundreds of posts and showing you what scripture says, clearly that has been done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
BTW, it is not stupid to believe otherwise. Unlike you, I don't call people names like "goofus" and "stupid". I address the doctrine, which in the case it is unscriptural to believe in a gospel of works.
This is the Bible:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Sincerely,
De Maria
We don't believe in a Gospel of works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
We believe we are saved by grace through faith.
And we believe we are justified by faith perfected and expressed in good works.
That is in Scripture. Faith alone is only found once in Scripture.
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Have not and cannot what? Obey? Why then did Christ give us a law (nomos) to love one another? He didn't appear to regard that as an impossible demand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
OK...
How about this.
Must a person be forgiven to be saved?
I believe so because the bible says so.
Now a person who has been property baptized with the Holy Spirit dwelling within who gets into a situation where he or she can not and will not forgive others.
Jesus tells us that a person who does not forgive others will not be forgiven.
Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours; 15. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will NOT forgive your failings either.
In the prayer He taught us we do pray in accord with that, "Forgive us our sins AS WE forgive those who sin against us."
It seems to be that that baptized person who may have onece been saved tosses it away by not forgiving others.
That is just one example of many that I have been taught where a person CAN lose their salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
This is helpful. Salvation isn't something *I possess*. It isn't my property irrespective of the life I lead.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I equate "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit after being baptized to be that the Holy Spirit abides within us.
That is with the old meaning that abides means lives or stays.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Our righteousness can only come through Christ when His righteousness is imputed to us. It is the Holy Spirit indwelling us that does that work. You know the Holy Spirit that scripture says cannot indwell the unsaved?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Then why are you spending so much time arguing in favour of a works gospel?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Are you saying that you have obeyed God's law perfectly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
That is how you characterize it. It's the strawman you build so that you can knock it down. But it isn't what we believe. We believe in faith and works:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I have already disavowed the perfection requirement. It's Gnostic. But perfection and perfectibility aren't the same thing, of course. In any case, to require works is not eo ipso to require perfection in works. No Catholic, as I've said, would hold that I can win my salvation on the strength of works alone. You have taken that to mean that works aren't necessary--on the strength of the fact that they aren't sufficient. But, as I've repeatedly said, the Catholic-Orthodox view is that works are necessary but not sufficient conditions for salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I'm not sure I see why you're convinced that to require works is to require perfection in works.
I don't see the word "unsaved" anywhere in the Bible?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
You didn't answer my question, so I'll rephrase it: Why did Christ give it as a law (nomos) that we are to love one another? Was this just advice? If so, why is it said to be a law (nomos)?
That is God's to judge. We simply obey. That is God's will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
But scripture is clear - you have not and you cannot. Further scripture says anyone who claims to have done so, other than Jesus Himself is a liar. So your gospel is a gospel that condemns all to hell by making impossible demands.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Whereas the gospel of the Bible is one that commands us to obey, but recognizes that we fail and Jesus blood covers all our unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV
I don't like your gospel. I'll stick with the Bible.
Are you claiming to perfectly obey God's law?
Slippery answer. But that does not do it. Scripture says that if you claim that you have, you are a liar.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Is the Bible wrong?
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