The problem is that Protestants recognize ANY interpretation of Scripture except the Catholic interpretation of Scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Peace
Sincerely,
De Maria
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The problem is that Protestants recognize ANY interpretation of Scripture except the Catholic interpretation of Scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Peace
Sincerely,
De Maria
Yes those groups that do not accept it, don't, and those that do will.
They look at the same verses in the bible and come up with different meanings
Only if you call scripture "heresy"Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I didn't see it. Please show me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Otherwise, I'll have to stick with:
1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
Which explicitly describe the spiritual concept which the Catholic Church calls purgatory.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Not quite. Protestants don't accept Catholic traditions that have become doctrines with their own unique interpretations of Scripture. Protestants are on the same page, but not necessarily the Catholic page.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
These were refuted so many times...Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Quote:
1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV
This refers to Abraham's bosom. Note that the suffering referred to here was in the flesh, not after death.
1 Cor 3:11-16Quote:
1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV
This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.
Then I have to ask you which is the truth? These men have not shown any scriptural evidence for there claim that pergatory exists (except for things taken out of context further meaning that they only take one verse and construe what it was used for instead of using it in the context of the verses before and after.) yet we have shown these verses in full context to show that these are lies if they can give us scripture in full context then I am sure we would be willing to listen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Nah!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Couldn't be. Lets look at the verse that refers directly to Abraham's bosom:Quote:
1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV
This refers to Abraham's bosom.
Luke 16 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom....25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.
Note how the angels brought Lazarus to Abraham's bosom and Lazareth is there comforted.
Is that a place which could be described as a prison? I think not.
Please divide the word rightly. Divine longsuffering refers to God's patience dealing with the disobedient souls of that time.Quote:
Note that the suffering referred to here was in the flesh, not after death.
There is no direct mention of suffering in this passage at all, except to mention that these spirits were in prison. And prisons are places of punishment and therefore of suffering.
Finally, I'm surprised you believe in a place called Abraham's bosom? So do we. I thought Protestant's only believed that Abraham's bosom was in heaven? After all, being absent from the body is being present with the Lord. Since when did you begin to believe in a place, separate from heaven and hell, called Abraham's bosom?
Sooo, these works are destroyed? Where are these works which are destroyed? Are they carried in the man's soul? Or are they something apart from the soul? Does the fire come to earth and burn down grass huts and other works of men made of flammable materials?Quote:
1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV
This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.
And if you decide that these works which are destroyed are contained in the man's soul, does that not mean that the man's soul is purified of dead works?
Sincerely,
De Maria
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom... 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.
Okay so now the beggar is comforted
And the rich man is tormented
How does that prove Purgatory?
Yes we where told in the bible by Jesus that we are to test everything with scripture again I will show you a verse to support! What I just said yet again. Jesus told the leaders of the synagogue to be quiet, when they where spreading lies and deceat. So I see no diffrence of when I told you to be quiet. Sola Scripture? How exactly is Sola Scripture heresy? Please do explain? And just as well to be ingnorant is very unChristain as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
1 John 4
Test the Spirits
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets (this is not part of scripture but this is also pointing to the people such as the pope)have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
If it was Herresy then this set of verses shouldn't be in the bible.
That is the problem with looking only at the English translation. The word in Greek refers to a confinement or act of confining in terms of a place, a guard or in terms of a division of time. It does not means that they were in what we think of as a jail.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Perhaps you missed the reference to the flood.Quote:
Please divide the word rightly. Divine longsuffering refers to God's patience dealing with the disobedient souls of that time.
I cannot tell you if protestants dpo or don't. I am not a protestant. But I can say that I have never heard anyone claim that Abraham's bosom was in heaven.Quote:
Finally, I'm surprised you believe in a place called Abraham's bosom? So do we. I thought Protestant's only believed that Abraham's bosom was in heaven?
This is speaking symbolically - an "act" cannot be destroyed. In any case, it has absolutely nothing to do with purgatory, nor with men being burned in purgatory.Quote:
Sooo, these works are destroyed? Where are these works which are destroyed? Are they carried in the man's soul? Or are they something apart from the soul? Does the fire come to earth and burn down grass huts and other works of men made of flammable materials?
What this is referring to, if you read the context, is showing how the work which are done for Christ live on whereas those not done for Christ amount to nothing in eternity. Those done for Christ result in the rewards.
Read it in context. I am telling you just what it says.
The Rich Man and LazarusQuote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
Again this is talking about two living men that died one went to heven one went to hell nothing more this is not proof for pergatory.
Lets see, a soul in hell calls Abraham "Father", begs Abraham for salvation for his brothers. Abraham turns around and addresses this soul as "son".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilmkiss
Since when are the souls in heaven and hell on such good terms? I thought there was a war going on?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Wondergirl,
Those Scripture passages that have been posted supposedly concerning purgatory don't and they DO NOT PROVE that Purgatory does not exist.Therefore they are not meaningful regarding that issue.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Heaven and Hell? I thought that we just agreed that Abraham's Bosom was not heaven. On the other hand, there is no suffering there so it provides no support for your mythical place called purgatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
You have never dealt with the passages put forward - just passing judgment with your own private interpretation over God's word is not convincing.
It is an allegory to make a point
The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away,
Arcura
Note: De Marie is the one that keeps bringing up Lazarus post #445 and previous ones
De Marie:
Couldn't be. Lets look at the verse that refers directly to Abraham's bosom:
I agree where ever Abraham's bosom is the story is nothing to do with Purgatory?
De Maria,
I stand with you on the Purgatory question.
I see bible passages that support its existence but none that prove it dose not exist.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Sounds like a lively place!
YouTube - Mormon Tabernacle Choir - Rock a My Soul (Spiritual)
Then bring forward the verses that support its existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I consider a place of confinement a jail. Apparently you want to put a different spin on it than the actual people who actually know the language and what it means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
[I]1 Peter 3:18-20 (New International Version)
19through whomalso he went and preached to the spirits in prison
KJV
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Literally everyone interprets it "prison", except you.
What makes you a greater authority than they?
No. But we are no speaking of the reference to the "prison" which you wish were not there. But it is. And you can't INTERPRET it away.Quote:
Perhaps you missed the reference to the flood.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck. Since you protest only about Catholic doctrine, you are a protestant.Quote:
I cannot tell you if protestants dpo or don't. I am not a protestant.
Then you admit that there is more to the after life than just heaven and hell?Quote:
But I can say that I have never heard anyone claim that Abraham's bosom was in heaven.
Read Lilmkiss's message for the commonly held Protestant view that Abraham's bosom is in heaven.
So, there is no actual fire and nothing is being burned or destroyed?Quote:
This is speaking symbolically - an "act" cannot be destroyed.In any case, it has absolutely nothing to do with purgatory, nor with men being burned in purgatory.
Now you're putting a top spin on Scripture. Read it more carefully:Quote:
What this is referring to, if you read the context, is showing how the work which are done for Christ live on whereas those not done for Christ amount to nothing in eternity. Those done for Christ result in the rewards.
14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS.
No, you're telling me what you wish it said. But the context is clear. It is purgatory. A place of purifying fire.Quote:
Read it in context. I am telling you just what it says.
Sincerely,
De Maria
When Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison that was a place where they waited UNTIL Jesus was sacrificed it was no longer needed once Jesus paid for our sins.
No, no. You've got that confused. We are interpreting Scripture according to the tradition of the Church.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
You are interpreting Scripture according to your private interpretation.
Sincerely,
De Maria
So Jesus did away with that prison? Where is that in Scripture?Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Perhaps you ought to consult a Greek lexicon.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Then you must be a Mormon (ccc #460 says that men become God)Quote:
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck. Since you protest only about Catholic doctrine, you are a protestant.
Not now. Nohelp4u explained it nicelyQuote:
Then you admit that there is more to the after life than just heaven and hell?
I am not interested in either a protestant or Catholic view. I focus on what scripture says. If you want to argue with protestants, go for it.Quote:
Read Lilmkiss's message for the commonly held Protestant view that Abraham's bosom is in heaven.
Do you think that acts catch fire? Hmmm could solve the energy crisis!Quote:
So, there is no actual fire and nothing is being burned or destroyed?
Hmmm that is really something that Tom interprets the Bible according to his OWN private interpretation yet I and many others BELIEVE exactly as Tjs does so that must mean that anything contrary to the RCC is considered OWN private interpretation?
No, no, no. Tom did a nice job using Scripture to support Scripture. It wasn't his interpretation, but what the Bible actually says.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The private interpretation of the men in your denomination.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Tj3,
DON'T try to pull that game here.
The passages supporting the existence of Purgatory have been posted here.
You do not believe what they say, but that is your problem not mine or of those other people here who have posted them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Are you referring to your copy and paste from the "Catholic Apologists Cheat Sheet website" that you did not give credit to?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Come now TJ. You know I was addressing Lilmkiss in that response. And Lilmkiss believes that Abraham's Bosom is in heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
However, you and I have danced this dance before. Let me repeat. Look at the other soul, Dives, the Rich Man.
Where is he?
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.
You like to look for the original language behind the words. What is the Greek word here translated "hell"?
And since when do souls in hell and souls in heaven addresses each other as father and son?
And since when do souls in the hell of the damned, in eternal punishment, seek to aid and comfort their brethren on earth?
I'm interested in your answer to all those questions. But I'm sure you'll ignore them as usual.
Sincerely,
De Maria
The Bible says JESUS was the propitiation for our sins and that we crucify him fresh by thinking that there is any other way so I still have to see how you feel you proved Purgatory.
You still have yet to explain how you can still justify a purgatory over these scriptures.
Purgatory makes these verses tossed in the garbage.
Hebrews 1:3
After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Hebrews 7:27-28
Who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.
Colossians 1:22
Yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach
1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
I don't see where there is room for purgatory in any of these verses. Purgatory would make them a lie.
Lets go over it again Wondergirl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Tom said that prison does not mean prison. Read it yourself:
In message #448, Tom said:
That is the problem with looking only at the English translation. The word in Greek refers to a confinement or act of confining in terms of a place, a guard or in terms of a division of time. It does not means that they were in what we think of as a jail.
So, what do you think? Is this a prison or not? That is what the KJV and the NIV both say. Do you interpret it differently and on what basis?
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Marie
Acrura even stated #451 that Lazarus/Abraham's bosom has nothing to do with Purgatory.
As you should know, there are several words in scripture used to describe hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Luke 16:23-24
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
NKJV
Notice the gulf?
Luke 16:25-27
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
NKJV
Who said that this was heaven? You are arguing a strawman.Quote:
And since when do souls in hell and souls in heaven addresses each other as father and son?
And so what if Abraham chose that word - who are you to judge him for doing so?
I could not tell you. I have never been in hell. Have you? Thjat being the case, I'll accept the scriptural account.Quote:
And since when do souls in the hell of the damned, in eternal punishment, seek to aid and comfort their brethren on earth?
Can't avoid the nasty crack, can you?Quote:
I'm interested in your answer to all those questions. But I'm sure you'll ignore them as usual.
Maria,Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Are you aware that in translating words from one language to another, there is some loss in the connotation of the word? And yes, in English, prison means prison, and yes, the Greek word can mean prison when read in that context. But the Greek word carries a wider meaning which you appear to wish to ignore.
Ooooooooohhhhh - I wonder is De Maria will accuse Fred of going against the interpretation of the Magisterium! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Tj3,
I am referring to what I and others here posted. Some posted the location of the passages for those who bother to look them up and the others I mentioned posted that passages word for word.
I thought that you read what I clearly said.
But it appears that you did not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
De Maria,
I'll watch for Tj3's answer to those questions.
I think you are right he will ignore them.
But he might try to twist them as is his habit.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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