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Originally Posted by sndbay

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him.

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If your point here is that must be obedient to righteousness to be saved, I have bad news for you - Read Romans 3:23. No one but Jesus has succeeded yet. If that was the gospel, it would not be much of a gospel because it would condemn us all - as the law does.

But the good news that we are not saved by our works, or our righteousness, but by His righteousness.

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Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

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It is interesting that you quote this, which comes as a conclusion to a section of scripture speaking against works of the law as being a path to salvation.

Are you aware that the word "baptized" also means to be identified with?

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Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Continue: so if we are baptized:( Romans 6:5 [/B] For "if "we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection):

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Right - "likeness" means that it is a comparison / symbolism.

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Continue: Our body might be destroyed/crucified/ not ever to serve sin (Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. )

So the revealed truth is that Christ dead for sin, and raised... He set us free from the curse of sin. We are able in baptism, thereafter never to return to sin, because we are dead in HIS likeness.

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Interesting that you should add baptism to this last verse when it does not say what you claim. Nowhere does it say or even suggest that baptism saves us or keeps us saved.

From Jesus-messiah.com
Jesus said everyone must be born of the water and of the Spirit. Most Christians argue about being born of the water; does it mean being born of the birth water of a mother; or does it mean water baptism? For the most part, Christians are ignorant of the Jewish connection to water baptism. They see it as a new invention beginning with John the Baptist. This gives many to reject water and Spirit baptisms as two parts to being born again. For Apostolics, we see in Acts 2:38 the verification of water and Spirit baptisms as the born again experience. We do not need nor do we look for any other validation or proof to the meaning of Jesus in John 3:3-5. However, for those not convinced in water and Spirit baptisms of the one new birth, especially that being born of the water is water baptism: I offer the Jewish source as proof.

“The baptismal water (Mikveh) in rabbinic literature was referred to as the womb of the world, and as a convert came out of the water it was considered a new birth separating him from the pagan world. As the convert came out of these waters his status was changed and he was referred to as “a little child just born” or “a child of one day”
The Mikveh was used for several different washings. They were all for a good conscience before God. The Mikveh was not a work of man, it was not invented by man. God is the designer and originator of this baptism (by baptism we mean immersion). There were several types of mikveh-baptisms. There was mikveh for women who completed their monthly cycle. This purification mikveh could be done at home and is the cause of the water pots where Jesus turned water into wine. It is said these contained water after the manner of the purification of the Jews. These waters of Mikveh were also for the washing of hands after being defiled by touching things unclean. They were used for washing clothes that might have become unclean by some contact with the profane. The waters of Mikveh were specifically designed to bring about sanctification. They were additionally the object for ceremonial washing and purification. In other words, whatever passed through the waters of Mikveh was then cleansed, purified, and sanctified, MADE HOLY!

Mikveh is the gathering together of any waters where any form of washing or passing through is considered an act of cleansing and sanctification. The term arises from the creation account when God gathered the waters and separated the land from the sea. From this springs the idea that in all acts of Mikveh there is a separation made by the water. It is said when the children passed through the Red Sea on the way to the promised land and were thus separated and sanctified unto Moses from Egyptian defilement, that this was a mikveh. The passing through the waters of the Red Sea is called a mikveh by Jews. Likewise, any passing through waters of separation by any means of cleansing is called a mikveh. When a Gentile wanted to convert to Judaism, he/she had to undergo Mikveh-baptism as a sign they were passing from Gentileism into Judaism, passing from idols to the true God, passing from life as a dead person to a new life in God, passing from the darkness of evil knowledge into the light of God's truth, and passing from the religion of the nations to accept the religion of the Jews. A person who did not say as Ruth: Your people shall be my people and your God shall be my God, could not enter the waters of convert Mikveh because they had not brought forth the fruits of repentance (Turning to God from one's past sins, life, and identity). These could not be a convert to Judaism. Each convert must make the same confession as Ruth at the time of their convert Mikveh-baptism: Your people shall become my people, and your God my God. All these Mikveh were by immersion and the name of God was invoked over them as they were either self immersed or was plunged under by a baptizer. The name "ADONAI ELOHIM EHJEH" (Lord God of Salvation and Deliverance) was pronounced over the convert.

All water baptism of the New Testament have their beginning in these ancient Mikveh cleansing, purification washings of the Jews. Water baptism was essential to becoming Jewish in olden times and it is essential to becoming a Christian in the New Testament. Any doctrine on baptism that does not include the Jewish foundation of these Mikveh washings is incomplete and usually false.

Pastor Reckart

adam7gur,
If you're going to quote someone that is not part of this thread and none of us ever heard of him, how does that help?
Just because the ritual was performed on old testament believers it should have been mentioned in the old testament to convince us -not in Rabbic literature. It isn't mentioned before John the Baptist in the Bible as I'm sure you know. What is mentioned is circumcision. Everyone that was a believer in those days was to be circumcised. Even today there is a cult that demands a man be circumcised to join them. The circumcision was to remind them of what God does with the believer in circumcising the heart. Circumcision cetainly has more biblical recommendations for it than baptism. Yes Jesus was Baptized, he was also circumcised. Should we follow the Lord in circumcision? Did circumcision help a man get saved or was it done after a man was already saved?(speaking of new adult believers) In the same way, water baptism should always follow the baptism of the spirit - not to help get saved but because the baptism of the spirit is the time of salvation. The water is our symbol and reminder nowadays of our Identification with the Lord in his death, burial, and resurrection... just like circumcision used to be for old testament believers being symbolic of the heart being changed by a circumcision of the heart. Neither Baptism by the spirit nor circumcision of the heart can be physically seen so these things were done externally to show what has already happened in the believer internally.

It was Tom who brought up the Jewish Mikvah in post 426 and I thought it a good idea to gain more info about it.
The authour is not present but his writings are not hidden , they are for free in the web.I did not claim that those thoughts are mine!

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

From Jesus-messiah.com
Jesus said everyone must be born of the water and of the Spirit. Most Christians argue about being born of the water; does it mean being born of the birth water of a mother; or does it mean water baptism? For the most part, Christians are ignorant of the Jewish connection to water baptism. They see it as a new invention beginning with John the Baptist. This gives many to reject water and Spirit baptisms as two parts to being born again. For Apostolics, we see in Acts 2:38 the verification of water and Spirit baptisms as the born again experience. We do not need nor do we look for any other validation or proof to the meaning of Jesus in John 3:3-5. However, for those not convinced in water and Spirit baptisms of the one new birth, especially that being born of the water is water baptism: I offer the Jewish source as proof.

“The baptismal water (Mikveh) in rabbinic literature was referred to as the womb of the world, and as a convert came out of the water it was considered a new birth separating him from the pagan world. As the convert came out of these waters his status was changed and he was referred to as “a little child just born” or “a child of one day”
Pastor Reckart

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Thank you Adam7gur,

Understanding these examples from OT and going forward to the NT, is helpful in edifying our walk in Christ. And I hope that Tom, homesell, and Fred will agree.
The fulfillment of Christ is far greater then what people understand in their walk in HIM. Jesus said My sheep hear my voice.

What Adam7gur has offered in (OT), and Jewish belief is compared to the (NT). It shows that, what was written in the word and Christ spoke in (Matthew 18:3).

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I have mentioned (Matthew 18:3) many times in different thread to focus on the importance of following Christ willingly, in Faith of HIS worthyness. (Eph 4:23-24 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.)

The sacrifice Christ gave us, did set us free from the curse Adam caused. It did bolt out our sins. Reality is the calling of salvation is faith in what Christ did.+ Plus it is faith in following HIS righteousness. We NOW have Choice of the Tree of Life which Adam rejected. And we can walk in Christ and HIM in us "if" we answer the call of salvation in one Baptism, in one Faith, in ONE LORD.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

It is fulfilled, no more filthy rags. Answer the call of salvation.. Christ Jesus

Hebrews 10:9-10 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will (meaning = by the Will of God)we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This sanctification for us, is the body of Christ, Everyone speaks of the blood.. WELL, This is the bread we have life in.

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Originally Posted by homesell

The circumcision was to remind them of what God does with the believer in circumcising the heart. Circumcision cetainly has more biblical recommendations for it than baptism. ].

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homesell,

Circumcision of the (OT) was the seal of righteousness, given under the law of sin. And true NOW, we have the circumcision of the heart in Faith of Christ. Because we are not under the law "if" we believe in Christ.

Christ fulfilled one law and brought the second law to be established.. The law of Faith

adam7gur has offered the reality of Jewish belief with (OT) bringing in the (NT).

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Originally Posted by Tj3

If your point here is that must be obedient to righteousness to be saved, I have bad news for you - Read Romans 3:23. No one but Jesus has succeeded yet. If that was the gospel, it would not be much of a gospel because it would condemn us all - as the law does.

But the good news that we are not saved by our works, or our righteousness, but by His righteousness.

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Let's put this idea to rest in THE WORD (James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.)

HIS righteousness that we walk in. (We were created in that image..) We were brought back to that image by Christ.

"IF" we Continue to sin, that puts us under the law(school master)

The born again spirit within us is, HIM within us, to guide us, and keep us in HIS way.

Faith Tom in the body of Christ....(1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. ) (1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers)


with = join to ( it does not mean redeemed by)

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:18)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It is interesting that you quote this, which comes as a conclusion to a section of scripture speaking against works of the law as being a path to salvation.

Are you aware that the word "baptized" also means to be identified with?

Right - "likeness" means that it is a comparison / symbolism.

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YES I am aware that the likeness of Christ is baptism. DEAD to sin.. should live in righteousness.

Do you have faith in HIS strength? Do you believe you can be kept by HIS power by that faith unto salvation?

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Already done.... if we believe, if we answer the call of salvation

********
I spoke to you concerning the perfecting faith that scripture speaks of as the strong meat. It is not the milk of babes that can't go forward. Each can go forward leaving the milk for strong meat...(Hebrew 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. )

(1Peter 2:2) babes desire..

Only if God permits can you hold stedfast in strong meat. Please reference (Hebrew 6)

Hebrew 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Interesting that you should add baptism to this last verse when it does not say what you claim. Nowhere does it say or even suggest that baptism saves us or keeps us saved.

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I have shown you differently... The idea that baptism does not save makes void the WORD of GOD..

1 Peter 2:7 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ


Lay down what man has taught and follow HIM.. Deny yourself

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Originally Posted by sndbay

homesell,

Circumcision of the (OT) was the seal of righteousness, given under the law of sin. And true NOW, we have the circumcision of the heart in Faith of Christ. Because we are not under the law "if" we believe in Christ.

Christ fulfilled one law and brought the second law to be established.. The law of Faith

adam7gur has offered the reality of Jewish belief with (OT) bringing in the (NT).

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There only ever has been one way to be saved, not two.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Let's put this idea to rest in THE WORD (James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.)

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You just keep repeating the same things even after they have been refuted, without adding anything new. This does not even imply that we need works to be saved.

I have already responded many times to this same message that you have posted.

If you have anything new, let me know.

Adam.
Thanks very much for the post about Jws and baptism.
It is very useful and thought provoking.

sndbay,
You have made some very good points.
Thanks,Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

There only ever has been one way to be saved, not two.

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The remark you posted is indignant to what is reflected in my post.

The point I offered is in regard to the words in (Hebrews 10:9-10 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will (meaning = by the Will of God)we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. )

~In Christ

The need to be dead and be buried in Christ from the rudiments of the world, rather then remain in (satan/sin) death from the flesh, is spoken of in (Col 2:20)

Religions do minister to the flesh with intentions to convert us. Yet we know man can not save us, it is the body of Christ that sets us FREE. According to what is written, nothing of this world from man can last because everything does perish (Col 2:22)

Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

WE are born of the flesh, and Only "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).

"Whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever" (Eccl. 3:14)

Consider the source in which David could say, "Create in me a clean heart, 0 God" But creating a new heart is not the same as man's attempt at making a heart clear. The perfecting faith is created by the SPIRIT within. Not of our own accord, but by the measure of gift in accordance to the Will of God.

If we remain as filthy rags, then as in Adam all die" (1 Cor. 15:22). "The mind of the flesh is death" (Rom. 8:6). Being connected with the body, it is called "this body of death" (Rom. 7:24).

Christ saved us from the death of sin and evilness, by creating us new in HIS image. (Romans 6:4) If we walk in the light (as Christ is the light) we have fellowship in HIM (1 John 1:7)


Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Again nothing I can say or do will convert others forever. Only what was offered by the BODY of Christ creates perfection and godliness, because we can be dead in Christ, and able to raise as He did. It is God that reveals unto whom He chooses. The WORD of GOD

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Originally Posted by sndbay

The remark you posted is indignant to what is reflected in my post.

The point I offered is in regard to the words in (Hebrews 10:9-10 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will (meaning = by the Will of God)we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. )

~In Christ

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Read it in context:

Heb 10:4-10
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--
In the volume of the book it is written of Me--
To do Your will, O God.' "

8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
NKJV

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Originally Posted by sndbay

The need to be dead and be buried in Christ from the rudiments of the world, rather then remain in (satan/sin) death from the flesh, is spoken of in (Col 2:20)

Religions do minister to the flesh with intentions to convert us. Yet we know man can not save us, it is the body of Christ that sets us FREE. According to what is written, nothing of this world from man can last because everything does perish (Col 2:22)

Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

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Read the context:

Col 2:13-18
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
NKJV

This is in the context of the death of Christ on the cross to pay the price for our sins.

WE are born of the flesh, and Only "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).

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Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

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You keep repeating this ignoring what I point out repeatedly that scripture says that this is symbolic:

Rom 6:4-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

Note the word "likeness"? It means that all we are looking at is a comparison or symbolism.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Read it in context:
Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
NKJV

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Tom

We have not disagreed in what Christ brought to the flesh body of man by HIS body and blood

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You keep repeating this ignoring what I point out repeatedly that scripture says that this is symbolic:

Rom 6:4-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

Note the word "likeness"? It means that all we are looking at is a comparison or symbolism.

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What seems to be the difference in our thoughts is the nature of man. The Holy Spirit (joined/unity/with) Christ, that will dwell within us by baptism and the born again spirit. The newness of man's nature. That which also compares with dead in Christ of the spirit, and buried from the rudiments of this world..

My studies into the perfecting Faith has listed the following as my notes. Perhaps you could reference further by using the notes I have of scripture.

What we have been given is a new nature. The "Old Man" as it is written in (Romans 6:6).. What about him? " The Old Man" was crucified with Christ. We are told he "is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph. 4:22). "The Old Man" is full of desires or lusts. These lusts are deceitful and deceiving. They are in all things contrary to God, contrary to His Spirit, and His Word compared to the new nature, the spirit, when it is once implanted within us. In this connection, it is called to salvation.

"The Outward Man"; as being that which is seen, and that which actually perishes (2 Cor. 4:16) and this is "day by day". This tells us that as long as we are in the flesh, we must suffer this "burden": and that no ordinance connected with that which perishes, can be of any avail in that domain where all is, and must be spiritual; of the Spirit.

"The Heart" the natural heart, which is "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" (Jer. 17:9) so deceitful that it constantly deceives and betrays us: so deceitful that none but God can really know it. The Lord Jesus has some "teaching about the heart" of the natural man in Matthew 15:19. "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies."

"The Carnal Mind." This aspect of the old nature is even more serious than the others. They relate rather to acts, and conditions, and character; but this relates to thoughts; to the mental activities, and reasonings and imaginations of the natural man (Rom. 8:7)

"Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Gen. 6:5)

(Rom. 8:7, 8) that this "mind of the flesh" is "Enmity against God." "Not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." And "cannot please God."

"That which is born (or, begotten) of the flesh is flesh"




POINT IN FACT: They are born of the flesh. Only "that which is born (or, begotten) of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6)

"Whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever" (Eccl. 3:14)

"Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up" (Matt. 15:13)

These words were spoken by the Lord to those whose religion was of the flesh, and consisted in washings and making long prayers; to those who honoured God with their lips, and supposed that man was defiled by "that which goeth into the mouth" (Matt 5:11)

It was spoken concerning the "Scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem", the place of religious observances (Matt 5:1)

And it is spoken today to all who "teach for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt 5:9)

Who make men the religion, by feedings of the flesh, and seek to make them holy by saying "Touch not, taste not, handle not" (Col. 2:21)

The nature of the old man cannot be changed. "It is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." This forever settles the matter for all who are subject to the Word of God in (Romans 8:7)



POINT OF FACT: "He That Soweth To His Flesh Shall Of The Flesh Reap Corruption" (Gal. 6:8)

All efforts to improve the flesh, all provision made for the flesh, all ordinances connected with the flesh, all end in corruption and death: all "perish with the using" (Col. 2:22)

Tom what do we need? We need the One Baptism. The Born again of the Spirit. That comes from the confessed faith in Christ Jesus, and the descend gift of the Holy Spirit. This can create the newness of life within us all.

So this new nature, being divine in its origin, is called theia phusis, Divine Nature (2 Pet. 1:4)

The New Man (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10). This is opposite to "the old man". This New Man, being entirely in the likenss of Christ, is called "a new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15).

And "according to the image/righteousness of HIM that created him" (Col. 3:10)

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation" (Gal. 4:15; Co1. 3:10, 11).

So can we acknowledge that in this connection the new nature is called to salvation? YES ?

"The Inward Man" (Rom. 7:22; 2 Cor. 4:16; Eph. 3:16). This is the opposite of "the outward man" which perishes day by day, while this "inward man is renewed day by day" REJOICE!!!

We are being nourished and replenished day by day with grace and strength by the Holy Spirit; so that Christ can dwell in the heart by faith (Eph. 3:16)

We learn something of His love which passeth knowledge, and are filled with all the fulness of God (Eph5:19)(Romans 3:27)

Remember Apostle Paul saying (and all who have like precious faith) to cry out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death" "I thank God, He will deliver me through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 7:24). REJOICE!!!

The Mind (Rom. 7:23, 25) The word here used for "the mind" is nous meaning the new nature. This "mind" serves the law of God (Rom. 7:25) This is the law of Faith in (Eph 4:4-5) (Romans 3:28)The law of God.

And all this because God has created within us a new nature, which He calls pneuma-Christou. However, here on earth, it is our privilege to share His rejection. "The world knows us not because it knew Him not" (1 John 3:1)


Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Hey guys, just checking in and I see you are still at it. I can just see God, up in heaven shaking his head, Probably thinking, I would have never inspired this bible thing if I knew it would bring out the worst in people. Each one so determined to show the other one wrong. Just how important do you think this play on words that you are arguing about really is? Important enough to fight over?
I think not.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

What seems to be the difference in our thoughts is the nature of man. The Holy Spirit (joined/unity/with) Christ, that will dwell within us by baptism and the born again spirit.

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There - you added baptism into this which is not in scripture. If you would just focus on addressing that point rather than longer and longer posts that largely repeat the same passages that you have quoted time and time again, and I have refuted time and time again, then we might have something to discuss.

Otherwise we are just going around in circles. Maybe it's time for the thread to be closed.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

There - you added baptism into this which is not in scripture.

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Biptism is the gift of the Holy Spirit and being buried with Christ (1 Peter 3:20-21 Acts 2:38 Romans 6:4)

Born Again ((John 3:5-6))


Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


~child of God

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Biptism is the gift of the Holy Spirit and being buried with Christ (1 Peter 3:20-21 Acts 2:38 Romans 6:4)

Born Again ((John 3:5-6))

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Same old, same old - these arguments were already refuted. Like I said, we are going around in circles.

Tj3,
Correction...
In my view and that of others you attempted to refute them but failed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Correction.....
In my view and that of others you attempted to refute them but failed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Ha ha , Fred, you can believe it as wish. The facts will not change, though.

Tj3,
Right, and the facts are that you CAN lose your salvation just as Jesus and the bible says.
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Right, and the facts are that you CAN lose your salvation just as Jesus and the bible says.
Fred

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Fred,

Salvation is a calling from God.. God will not take the calling away..

However if we don't answer the calling.. Then we don't have what God sent in HIS calling..

1. To answer the calling we hold stedfast in One God, Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. = One Lord

2. To answer the calling we confess Christ Jesus as the begotten Son of God = ONE FAITH

3. To answer the calling we are bapized in Christ = One Baptism

The answered call, by the (law of faith) in three in "ONE"


The question is: Do you and others believe that to lose salvation, is the calling not answered?


( One Baptism being a calling that requires an the answer, appears to be the disagreement between Tj3 and myself. )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Right, and the facts are that you CAN lose your salvation just as Jesus and the bible says.
Fred

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Fred,

You keep telling us that you can stop being saved without knowing it, but I have yet to see a verse that says that. You have shown verses that say that we can reject our salvation, and I agree that is possible, but where are the references that show is it possible to stop being saved without knowing it, or accidentally?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

( One Baptism being a calling that requires an the answer, appears to be the disagreement between Tj3 and myself. )[/B]

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sndbay,

Let's be accurate. That is NOT the disagreement. The disagreement is what that ONE baptism is. You include water, I say that it is the Holy Spirit alone because that is the ONLY baptism which scripture says that 100% of all believers must have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

sndbay,

Let's be accurate. That is NOT the disagreement. The disagreement is what that ONE baptism is. You include water, I say that it is the Holy Spirit alone because that is the ONLY baptism which scripture says that 100% of all believers must have.

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Okay Tom... I disagree with you on water

I include water, because it is in the likeness of the Noah, when the water did save 8 souls from evil. Water is in that like figure of washing away the surrounding evil and wickedness.. It will cover or bury us in Christ, and God's hand of fire will nourished and protect us.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I believe Water was the baptism Christ suffered unto us with John.

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.


Matthew 20:23 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

sndbay,

I say that it is the Holy Spirit alone because that is the ONLY baptism which scripture says that 100% of all believers must have.

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Tom, Measures according to HIS Will are given. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given in different measures.

1 Cr 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.


Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Proverbs 10:6 A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

sndbay,

I say that it is the Holy Spirit alone because that is the ONLY baptism which scripture says that 100% of all believers must have.

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So what measure of the spiritual gifts would each have that do not follow HIS steps?


Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Christ Jesus is said to be full of the HOLY SPIRIT. (Luke 4:1)

In (Act 6) it speaks of full faith and Holy Spirit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Okay Tom... I disagree with you on water

I include water, because it is in the likeness of the Noah, when the water did save 8 souls from evil.

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"Likeness" - right. Likeness means symbolism.

Quote:

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Water is in that like figure of washing away the surrounding evil and wickedness..

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A "like figure" which is symbolism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

So what measure of the spiritual gifts would each have that do not follow HIS steps?

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It depends upon what you mean by "follow Him". If you mean "saved", then scripture says none. That is a significant problem for you when we read Acts 10:47.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It depends upon what you mean by "follow Him". If you mean "saved",, then scripture says none. That is a significant problem for you when we read Acts 10:47.

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No, because this says baptize them..(with water)

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

"Likeness" - right. Likeness means symbolism.



A "like figure" which is symbolism.

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A likeness in that it too SAVED, yes being symbolism to being saved by water. (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)

Symbolism:

The flesh lives and breathes air of sin, and the water that saves is the gift of the Holy Spirit that is covered over us. Sin can't breath...sin can't live...

Buried with Christ, and Christ had paid for our sins on the cross


Discussion Finished

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

No, because this says baptize them..(with water)

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

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AFTER they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Interesting how you omitted that part of the passage.

Acts 10:47-48
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
NKJV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Symbolism:

The flesh lives and breathes air of sin, and the water that saves is the gift of the Holy Spirit that is covered over us. Sin can't breath...sin can't live...

Buried with Christ, and Christ had paid for our sins on the cross

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Right - water in baptism is symbolic - we agree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

AFTER they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Interesting how you omitted that part of the passage.

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Not at all necessary because you had already claimed the presence of the Holy Spirit .. I claim the measure in gifts of the Holy Spirit is different. Scripture tells us measures according to God's Will are giving.

The Gentiles went on to be baptized as command because the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT in baptism includes the SAVING WATER... ( Living Water)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Right - water in baptism is symbolic - we agree.

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The Holy Spirit's gift of Saving Water in baptism is as symbolic as the LIVING WATER

Now do we agree?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Not at all necessary because you had already claimed the presence of the Holy Spirit.. I claim the measure in gifts of the Holy Spirit is different. Scripture tells us measures according to God's Will are giving.

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So what is your point? Scripture says that ONLY the saved can have the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

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The Gentiles went on to be baptized as command

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Yes, and no one is saying not to be baptized.

Quote:

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because the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT in baptism includes the SAVING WATER... ( Living Water)

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You are adding to scripture. You won't find this given as the reason anywhere in Acts 10.

Quote:

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The Holy Spirit's gift of Saving Water in baptism is as symbolic as the LIVING WATER

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You again add to scripture because water of baptism is nowhere called "living water". That phrase is used six places in scripture:

The Old Testament References are:

1) Song 4:12-15

12 A garden enclosed Is my sister, my spouse, A spring shut up, A fountain sealed. 13 Your plants are an orchard of pomegranates With pleasant fruits,
Fragrant henna with spikenard, 14 Spikenard and saffron, Calamus and cinnamon, With all trees of frankincense, Myrrh and aloes, With all the chief spices-- 15 A fountain of gardens, A well of living waters, And streams from Lebanon.
NKJV

Unless you think that we must all go to Lebanon to be baptized, this clearly has nothing to do with baptism.

2) Jer 2:12-13

12 Be astonished, O heavens, at this, And be horribly afraid; Be very desolate," says the LORD. 13 "For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns--broken cisterns that can hold no water.
NKJV

The living waters here is defined as God Himself, not water of baptism.

3) Jer 17:13

13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed. "Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth, Because they have forsaken the LORD, The fountain of living waters."
NKJV

Once again, it is shown to be God Himself, not the water of baptism.

4) Zech 14:6-9

6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the LORD-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. 8 And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. 9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-- "The LORD is one," And His name one.
NKJV

The living waters are to flow from God Himself (Jesus) when He rules directly from Jersualem. The living waters are from God Himself, not water of baptism.

And the last two are from the New Testament:

1) John 4:8-15

9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. 10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." 11 The woman said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?" 13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."
NKJV

Jesus makes a clear distinction here between ordinary water and the living water that He gives. Once again, the living water comes from God Himself.

2) John 7:38-39

38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

The living water here comes out of the believer and it is specifically spoken of as being the Holy Spirit. Once again, the living water is God.

So it is clear that the "living water" is God. To suggest that ordinary water used in a baptismal font is "living water" is a very dangerous teaching indeed, and is not found anywhere in scripture.

The necessity or purpose that Christ be suffered on the cross, in order to open thoroughly and set before (one) in teaching that He died and raised again. (Acts 17:3)

The element of that cross is evidence to the idenity of dead, buried, and did raise again.

And the necessity or purpose, is that Christ be suffered in baptism with open witness of heaven, and set before(one) teaching that we die with HIm, are buried, and able to raise as He raised.

(Romans 6:4)
(1 Peter 2:21)
(1 Peter 3:18)
(Col 2:12)

The element of that water is evidence to the idenity of died, buried, and able to raise as He raised.

One Faith/Christ the Living Water (John 4:10)
One Baptism/Holy Spirit the Saving Water (Romans 6:3-4-5)
One Lord (Eph 4:6 ) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Roman 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

Romans 6:6-10 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.



1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


Symbolism:The Saving Water, The Living Water, all in the hands of God.
Father,Son,Holy Spirit


Tom, my part in this discussion is over...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

The necessity or purpose that Christ be suffered on the cross, in order to open thoroughly and set before (one) in teaching that He died and raised again. (Acts 17:3)

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The necessity of Jesus to die on the cross was to pay the price for our sins:

Rev 1:5-6
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

His sacrifice was complete on the cross:

Heb 10:12-15
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

If the one sacrifice perfect forever those who are being sanctified, then nothing more was required for our salvation. And you will find nothing else in scripture. Note how many times you were required to add words to what scripture said, "baptism" and "living water" for examples. That is because scripture simply does not support your doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

Quote:

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The element of that cross is evidence to the idenity of dead, buried, and did raise again.

And the necessity or purpose, is that Christ be suffered in baptism with open witness of heaven, and set before(one) teaching that we die with HIm, are buried, and able to raise as He raised.

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Once again, this is the mikveh, a ritual ceremony that we find in the Old Testament. It was not necessary for salvation. If you say that it is then that is suggesting that Jesus needed to be saved of His sins, which would mean that He would not be qualified as our saviour, nor would He be God. The mikveh along with other rituals did nothing for salvation, but were simply acts of obedience to God, being done as a prophetic act of the coming of the sacrifice that Jesus was to make on the cross:

Heb 9:9-10
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
NKJV

Therefore being symbolic, it did nothing for salvation. As stated previous if it was done to make Jesus righteous, then Jesus was a sinner which would mean that gospel is a fake. On the other hand, if Jesus did it for the purposes of being obedient to a prophetic ritual, then by so doing He ensured that He remained righteousness by not committing a sin of omission.

Quote:

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One Baptism/Holy Spirit the Saving Water

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There is on ONE baptism and only ONE saving water. It is not water that we drink, but as you nicely, but inadvertently pointed out in the prior message, that living water, saving water is that of the Holy Spirit:

Jer 2:13
13 "For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters,
And hewn themselves cisterns--broken cisterns that can hold no water.
NKJV

Jer 17:13
13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed.
"Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth,
Because they have forsaken the LORD, The fountain of living waters."
NKJV

That is why we are told in John 7:39 and others that the baptism is that of the Holy Spirit. Note in Jer 2:13, the people turned away from the living water, and tried digging cisterns to get ordinary water. That is what is happening when people look to water for their salvation instead of the true living waters that come from the Holy Spirit which we receive when we are saved through the cross.

John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

Why do people look to ordinary water for salvation, for the ONE baptism when God offers us the living waters of the Holy Spirit?

Tj3,
I did provide the verse.
Here it is again.
Matthew 6: 14. "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15. "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Tom as you know your sins MUST be forgiven if you are to go into heaven.
As stated before if for some reason a person who was saved refuses to forgive someone who has sinned against him/her then his/her sin will not be forgiven and salvation is lost.
It is as simple as that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I did provide the verse.
Here it is again.
Matthew 6: 14. "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15. "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Tom as you know your sins MUST be forgiven if you are to go into heaven.
As stated before if for some reason a person who was saved refuses to forgive someone who has sinned against him/her then his/her sin will not be forgiven and salvation is lost.
It is as simple as that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Fred,

Putting aside any interpretations of this, are you saying that a person will have no knowledge of whether they have forgiven someone or not?