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Fair enough. I misread your statement.
I have just posted three passages to taken figuratively.. I also posted what is the general rule of good hermeneutics regarding literal/figurative understandings of passages.
I still wish you would answer my question. I don't expect you will, but I wish you would.
Jesus Himself said those are figurative -- stories that tell a bigger truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Again, I have no idea what that question is.Quote:
I still wish you would answer my question. I don't expect you will, but I wish you would.
Yes. We would agree with that.Quote:
Jesus Himself said those are figurative -- stories that tell a bigger truth.
What are some passages you take literally?
Jesus' ministry, death, and resurrection.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Why take those literally? How about His teachings? Weren't they part of His ministry? Should they be taken literally? If not, then why not?
Are you trying to push me into a corner of your own making?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
His teachings were part of His ministry. What was the point of His ministry, no matter if His teachings were literal or, so often, figurative?
Answer a question with a question. Wonderful.
I am trying to get you to think. The only way to do that is for each of us to be willing to think aloud. You seem to be unwilling.
Please stop putting me down.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Apparently, you didn't understand my rhetorical question. I'll rephrase:
[Jesus'] teachings were part of His ministry. Otherwise, what then would have been the point and value of His ministry had He not used these teachings that were literal or, so often, figurative?
If you want a discussion, don't dodge questions. I asked first, so you answer first.
Rhetorical questions, by definition, do not require answers. I thought you knew these things.
Why take those literally? How about His teachings? Weren't they part of His ministry? Should they be taken literally? If not, then why not?
Again, more putdowns.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Again, no answers. Stop being so sensitive and start being honest and open. Answer questions.
[Jesus'] teachings, both literal and figurative, were part of His ministry and very much the point and value of His ministry. In both word and deed, He enriched the lives of others with unconditional love.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You answered a question asked by no one.
I’ll ask another one. Where does it say God’s love is unconditional?
You asked:Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
"Why take those literally? How about His teachings? Weren't they part of His ministry? Should they be taken literally? If not, then why not?"
So I answered:
"[Jesus'] teachings, both literal and figurative, were part of His ministry and very much the point and value of His ministry. In both word and deed, He enriched the lives of others with unconditional love."
God’s expression of His unconditional love is found throughout the Bible. Although we are commanded to repent of our sins and love Him and each other, He never stops loving us in our journey to righteousness.Quote:
I’ll ask another one. Where does it say God’s love is unconditional?
One of my favorite verses, Eph. 2:8:
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God...." -- a gift of grace that shows His unconditional love for us.
If it’s stated throughout the Bible, can you show even one place where that is said?
Your passage didn’t even mention love.
You don't get "unconditional love" (agape) out of God's sacrificing His only Son and giving eternal life as a free gift to sin-ridden humans?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I have asked a simple question. Can you show me in the Bible a passage where it speaks of God's "unconditional love"? You have stated it is throughout the Bible. Fine. Show us where.
Agape is not defined as unconditional love.
I am trying to get you to think this concept through. I know in the past we have talked about unconditional love and unconditional acceptance NOT being synonymous.
You want that exact phrase "unconditional love" to be in the Bible. Correct? If it's not those exact words in the Bible, *sigh*, God must not love us unconditionally.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
From Wikipedia:Quote:
Agape is not defined as unconditional love.
Agape (Ancient Greek ἀγάπη, agapē) is a Greco-Christian term referring to unconditional love, "the highest form of love, charity" and "the love of God for man and of man for God". The word is not to be confused with philia, brotherly love, or philautia, self-love, as it embraces a universal, unconditional love that transcends and persists regardless of circumstance.
I agree that you don't know. The question is legitimate only if the person asking is doing so for a legitimate reason. I already explained that. You have made it clear your purpose is not legitimate. I'm always amazed at how you have such difficulty understanding the posts of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Wrong! Most read the Bible to discern the meaning behind the words when a literal reading is obviously not called for.Quote:
Everybody reads the Bible literally.
Like a talking reptile?Quote:
When you quote passages, you take their meanings to be literal.
Third time WRONG! My definition is the accepted definition. That is easily verified by checking any dictionary or any Bible site.Quote:
Your definitions of fundamentalists/evangelicals are just that. Your definitions.
Unlike you, he was man enough to recognize that some of his posts did not describe the real person he was. I admire him for that.Quote:
Shame to see Info go. He had some good statements.
That is the last mention I will make re Info to you. I have no desire to tarnish his reputation by discussing him with you.
You said, and I quote, "God’s expression of His unconditional love is found throughout the Bible." Now you say it's not? Are you confused?Quote:
You want that exact phrase "unconditional love" to be in the Bible. Correct? If it's not those exact words in the Bible, *sigh*.
As to your definition of agape, it is not defined as unconditional love in any lexicon you will ever find. Strong's Concordance says, "26 agápē – properly, love which centers in moral preference. So too in secular ancient Greek, 26 (agápē) focuses on preference; likewise the verb form (25 /agapáō) in antiquity meant "to prefer" (TDNT, 7). In the NT, 26 (agápē) typically refers to divine love (= what God prefers)." The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon says, "
Definition
- brotherly love, affection, good will, love, benevolence
- love feasts"
Thayer's Greek Lexicon says this.
1. affection, good-will, love, benevolence: John 15:13; Romans 13:10; 1 John 4:18. Of the love of men to men; especially of that love of Christians toward Christians which is enjoined and prompted by their religion, whether the love be viewed as in the soul or as expressed: Matthew 24:12; 1 Corinthians 13:1-4, 8; 1 Corinthians 14:1; 2 Corinthians 2:4; Galatians 5:6; Philemon 1:5, 7; 1 Timothy 1:5; Hebrews 6:10; Hebrews 10:24; John 13:35; 1 John 4:7; Revelation 2:4, 19, etc. Of the love of men toward God: ἡ ἀγάπη τοῦ Θεοῦ; (obj. genitive (Winer's Grammar, 185 (175))), Luke 11:42; John 5:42; 1 John 2:15 (τοῦ πατρός); . Of the love of God toward men: Romans 5:8; Romans 8:39; 2 Corinthians 13:13 (14). Of the love of God toward Christ: John 15:10; John 17:26. Of the love of Christ toward men: John 15:9; 2 Corinthians 5:14; Romans 8:35; Ephesians 3:19. In construction: ἀγάπην εἰς τινα, 2 Corinthians 2:8 (?); Ephesians 1:15 (L WH omit; Tr marginal reading brackets τήν ἀγάπην); τῇ ἐξ ὑμῶν ἐν ἡμῖν i. e. love going forth from your soul and taking up its abode as it were in ours, equivalent to your love to us, 2 Corinthians 8:7 (Winers Grammar, 193 (181f); B. 329 (283)); μεθ' ὑμῶν i. e. is present with (embraces) you, 1 Corinthians 16:24; μεθ' ἡμῶν i. e. seen among us, 1 John 4:17. Phrases: ἔχειν ἀγάπην εἰς τινα, 2 Corinthians 2:4; Colossians 1:4 (L T Tr, but WH brackets); 1 Peter 4:8; ἀγάπην διδόναι to give a proof of love, 1 John 3:1; ἀγαπᾶν ἀγάπην τινα, John 17:26; Ephesians 2:4 (see in ἀγαπάω, under the end); ἀγάπης τοῦ πνεύματος, i. e. enkindled by the Holy Spirit, Romans 15:30; ὁ υἱός τῆς ἀγάπης the Son who is the object of love, equivalent to ἀγαπητός, Colossians 1:13 (Winers Grammar, 237 (222); (Buttmann, 162 (141))); ὁ Θεός τῆς ἀγάπης the author of love, 2 Corinthians 13:11; κόπος τῆς ἀγάπης troublesome service, toil, undertaken from love, 1 Thessalonians 1:3; ἀγάπην τῆς ἀληθείας love which embraces the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:10; ὁ Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστιν God is wholly love, his nature is summed up in love, 1 John 4:8, 16; φίλημα ἀγάπης a kiss as a sign among Christians of mutual affection, 1 Peter 5:14; διά τήν ἀγάπην that love may have opportunity of influencing thee ('in order to give scope to the power of love,' DeWette, Wies.), Philemon 1:9, cf. Philemon 1:14; ἐν ἀγάπη lovingly, in an affectionate spirit, 1 Corinthians 4:21; on love as a basis (others, in love as the sphere or element), Ephesians 4:15 (where ἐν ἀγάπη is to be connected not with ἀληθεύοντες but with αὐξήσωμεν), Ephesians 4:16; ἐξ ἀγάπης influenced by love, Philippians 1:17 (16); κατά ἀγάπην in a manner befitting love, Romans 14:15. Love is mentioned together with faith and hope in 1 Corinthians 13:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:3; Colossians 1:4; Hebrews 10:22-24. On the words ἀγάπη, ἀγαπᾶν, cf. Gelpke in the Studien und Kritiken for 1849, p. 646f; on the idea and nature of Christian love see Köstlin, Lehrbgr. des Ev. Joh. etc., p. 248ff, 332ff; Rückert, Theologie, ii. 452ff; Lipsius, Paulin. Reehtfertigungsl., p. 188ff; (Reuss, Theol. Chret. livr. vii. chap. 13).
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