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Originally Posted by cozyk

I have NO PROBLEM admitting when I screw up and apologizing to God for it. And if he loves me anything like I love my kids, he will forgive me and love me even when I falter.
That is between God and me. Nobody needed to die for it. Tell me this. Are you good and believe in God and Jesus, etc. just to stay out of hell or would you be doing exactly what you are doing now even if you had never heard of God, Jesus, or bible?

No, he would be responsible for his own choices. Let me give you an example.

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Of course God loves us, there's no debate there. God never stops loving us. That's a common misconception and I hate it when so-called "Christians" go around telling people that God hates them because they're gay, because they murdered someone, because they sleep around, etc. God hates our sin but still loves us.
If nobody needed to sacrifice, then how do we cleanse ourselves of sin? What option do we have? Are you suggesting that we, as humans, are worthy of Heaven all by ourselves?

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Originally Posted by cozyk

Your little boy has free will as we all do. That's one of the many functions of the brain. To decipher what's the best or easiest or fun-ist, or safest, or most rewarding choice to go with. Now, say you are god.

You have provided a pass or fail situation. You have explained the consequences.
Pass and your reward is a glorious experience beyond description.
Fail and your punishment will be never ending agony, pain, and darkness.

You've told little Johnny not to eat the cookies on the table. Now, he has his free will but his flesh is weak and he gives in to the temptation EVEN though he knew the consequences.

Now, you set up the consequences so you have to follow through.
So, you send your little boy to hell. But hey, HE did it to HIMSELF so there. He was warned.

Would you ever set up consequences like this for your child? Of course not, the stakes are too high. And I don't believe a loving God would do this to his children anymore than you or I would. Something as enormous as eternity hinging on something as shaky as
free will doesn't make sense.

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I'm not sure if "Johnny" is supposed to be Jesus, or us. Assuming it's us, we don't have to go to Hell. God doesn't give us one chance to sin and that's it, the same way you don't give your kids one chance. If you give your kids multiple chances and they continue to disobey you, what do you do? You punish them, correct? Why should God be any different? Why should we get a free pass to say, think, do what we feel without consequences? We have punishment in our world here; you break the law, you go to jail. What sense would it make to create a system of order, only to change the rules for the afterlife?

Well god loves everyone and well he didn't have too pay for our sins but he did so the least you can do is respect his commands. Even if you disobey his commands Gods love is unconditional!! Always remember that:cool:mad:cool:

[QUOTE=this8384;1487061]Of course God loves us, there's no debate there. God never stops loving us. That's a common misconception and I hate it when so-called "Christians" go around telling people that God hates them because they're gay, because they murdered someone, because they sleep around, etc. God hates our sin but still loves us.
If nobody needed to sacrifice, then how do we cleanse ourselves of sin? What option do we have? Are you suggesting that we, as humans, are worthy of Heaven all by ourselves?

I don't like it when people say God hates people that are this or that too.:mad:

For me, "cleansing ourselves from sin" is something that happens every time I go to God with remorse, sorrow, with the sincerest promise to do better and ask for forgiveness.

I feel like God's response to me is , "of course, thank you for your sincerity , I believe you. Now, go along, continue doing the best you can, and I'll be waiting for you here in "heaven" when I call you home." And...never forget how much I love you."

How is that for another option?
See, no sacrifice by another person was needed for God and I to have this exchange. I am responsible for my own relationship with God. Yes, we are worthy if we choose to be. If you spend your life just smacking God in the face so to speak and live only for your own egoic needs, then you have screwed yourself.

I'm not sure if "Johnny" is supposed to be Jesus, or us. Assuming it's us, we don't have to go to Hell.

Johnny is us, also known as children of God
The parent here is God.

God doesn't give us one chance to sin and that's it, the same way you don't give your kids one chance. If you give your kids multiple chances and they continue to disobey you, what do you do? You punish them, correct? Why should God be any different? Why should we get a free pass to say, think, do what we feel without consequences?


I'm not saying that God should put up with continued disrespect. There should always be consequences for actions. And of course I know God doesn't just give us one chance.

What I am really referring to is the unyielding opinion that some christians have that no matter what good works you do, if you don't believe Jesus is your savior or that there is even a God, your butt is going to hell. I don't believe God is that cruel or that small. There are MANY reasons why someone believes as they do. I think God takes all that into consideration and is not that cut and dry with his reward or punishment.

No one that has a moral compass at all is going to think "I can do anything I want and all I have to do is ask for forgiveness and all will be fine". God knows the difference, he not that gullible.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

I don't like it when people say God hates people that are this or that too.:mad:

For me, "cleansing ourselves from sin" is something that happens every time I go to God with remorse, sorrow, with the sincerest promise to do better and ask for forgiveness.

I feel like God's response to me is , "of course, thank you for your sincerity , I believe you. Now, go along, continue doing the best you can, and I'll be waiting for you here in "heaven" when I call you home." And...never forget how much I love you."

How is that for another option?
See, no sacrifice by another person was needed for God and I to have this exchange. I am responsible for my own relationship with God. Yes, we are worthy if we choose to be. If you spend your life just smacking God in the face so to speak and live only for your own egoic needs, then you have screwed yourself.

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That's the whole thing though. Old Testament practices didn't allow for us to approach God; that's why they had priests, the one person who was pure enough to enter into the Temple and ask God to forgive everyone's sin. Christ died so that we have that direct connection to God. We don't need a priest's forgiveness, which is why I don't agree with Catholicism; when we've sinned, we can go directly to God and confess. That was why Jesus sacrificed His life and is referred to as our Savior, because we had no direct path to God before His death and resurrection.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

I'm not saying that God should put up with continued disrespect. There should always be consequences for actions. And of course I know God doesn't just give us one chance.

What I am really referring to is the unyielding opinion that some christians have that no matter what good works you do, if you don't believe Jesus is your savior or that there is even a God, your butt is going to hell. I don't believe God is that cruel or that small. There are MANY reasons why someone believes as they do. I think God takes all that into consideration and is not that cut and dry with his reward or punishment.

No one that has a moral compass at all is going to think "I can do anything I want and all I have to do is ask for forgiveness and all will be fine". God knows the difference, he not that gullible.

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That's why the Bible says "Faith without works is dead." You can't proclaim to believe God's Word and then not act on it. They go hand-in-hand.

That's the whole thing though. Old Testament practices didn't allow for us to approach God; that's why they had priests, the one person who was pure enough to enter into the Temple and ask God to forgive everyone's sin. Christ died so that we have that direct connection to God. We don't need a priest's forgiveness, which is why I don't agree with Catholicism; when we've sinned, we can go directly to God and confess. That was why Jesus sacrificed His life and is referred to as our Savior, because we had no direct path to God before His death and resurrection.

I would hope that if I lived during that time that I would have the same thought process as I do now.

Just because the OT practice did not "allow" us to approach God one on one , I would still be a free thinker. Just like now, I'd say "who comes up with this stuff?"
YOU do what you gotta do. If that is to speak to God through a priest, go for it." Personally, I think God would love to hear from me direct.

What makes a priest anymore grand in Gods eyes than anyone else.? That sounds more like "pompous God". Did no one think for themselves. Just blindly follow the custom of the day? Geeesh!
Christ would not have had to die for that if people just thought for themselves.

cozyk
What makes you think that people in the OT could not have direct contact with GOd.
The OT had many cases of where people did just that.
Also why did Jesus establish a Church whose followers were the first priests?
Jesus also gave the Holy Spirit to guide them which The holy Spirit did and still does.
Think on that for awhile.
Also this, I am Catholic and I have much more direct contact with God than I do with my priests.
But my priest has the power to forgive my sins just as Jesus does. The difference is that of direct, face to face, confession of my sins which the priest helps me with.
And I do get an out loud verbal answer from the priest that I do not get from Jesus.
There is a great satisfaction in that.
I and a billion other Catholics (plus with some other denominations) have that great grace and joy that others without priest do not have.
Having been a Protestant for many years and now a Catholic for over 30 years has dramatically taught me that difference.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

cozyk
What makes you think that people in the OT could not have direct contact with GOd.
The OT had many cases of where people did just that.
Also why did Jesus establish a Church whose followers were the first priests?
Jesus also gave the the Holy Spirit to guide them which The holy Spirit did and still does.
Think on that for awhile.
Also this, I am Catholic and I have much more direct contact with God than I do with my priests.
But my priest has the power to forgive my sins just as Jesus does. The difference is that of direct, face to face, confession of my sins which the priest helps me with.
And I do get an out loud verbal answer from the priest that I do not get from Jesus.
There is a great satisfaction in that.
I and a billion other Catholics (plus with some other denominations) have that great grace and joy that others without priest do not have.
Having been a Protestant for many years and now a Catholic for over 30 years has dramatically taught me that difference.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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I agree Fred...

Such confessions are tangible remission of sin for the penitent; not a covering over of sin.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by arcura

cozyk
What makes you think that people in the OT could not have direct contact with GOd.
The OT had many cases of where people did just that.
What makes me think that? Read post 224.


Also why did Jesus establish a Church whose followers were the first priests?
Jesus also gave the the Holy Spirit to guide them which The holy Spirit did and still does.
Think on that for awhile.
I'm thinking.:confused: "Gave the holy spirit to guide them." How do you give someone a holy spirit. You mean Jesus put thoughts into their heads that they believed were put their by God?:confused:

Also this, I am Catholic and I have much more direct contact with God than I do with my priests. And so you should.

But my priest has the power to forgive my sins just as Jesus does. You think?

The difference is that of direct, face to face, confession of my sins which the priest helps me with.
And I do get an out loud verbal answer from the priest that I do not get from Jesus.
Why do you have to go into those little confessional booths. I mean if you are going to be as intimate as to share your sins with him. and he knows your voice , what is the point of the booths?

There is a great satisfaction in that.
If it gives you satisfaction to confess your sins to another man, and have him forgive you, then you are doing what works for you and that's great.

I and a billion other Catholics (plus with some other denominations) have that great grace and joy that others without priest do not have.
Do you have to make an appointment, or is there a standard confession time, do you have to get in line? How does that work?


Having been a Protestant for many years and now a Catholic for over 30 years has dramatically taught me that difference.
I'm glad that you are happy with your faith.
Do you mind if I ask you why you left the Protestants?

Peace and kindness,
Fred

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What makes me think that? Read post 224 .

CozyK.
First of all I believe Jesus has the power to give anything He wants to.
The bible says that Jesus said to his apostles, "Receive the Holy Spirit" so I believe He did give them the Holy Spirit.
Next, I don't think that, I know it because Jesus gave his priests the power to forgive or bind sins when he said, "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Matt 16:19). And again I believe Jesus.
Next the little confession booths were for security away from other parishioners but that has been done away with. Now days I sit in a separate room face to face with my priest.
Next there is a special time before Mass for those who want to confess.
Sometimes there are a few waiting. Also a person can ask for a special appointment. I have done so when I needed to.
Next the reason I left was because of the great hatred of the Catholics I witnessed with the Protestants and I began to wonder about that for I had seen unfounded hatred among people against people so I went to studying the Catholic faith.
You might say I went to the Dodge vehicle dealer not the Ford dealer to find the truth about dodge vehicles.
I found that the Catholic Church was much more accurate to what the bible said than what the Protestants were telling. Also I found that the Protestants were not telling the truth about what the Catholic taught about Mary, The Eucharist, Confession and other of their teachings.
So I became a Catholic.
I hope that answers your questions.
If you have more please ask.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Let me clarify; when I said that people in the OT couldn't "approach" God, I certainly didn't mean that they couldn't communicate with Him through prayer and worship. I meant in the aspect of the remission of their sins.

I believe that no religion can save you; faith can. Unlike Fred, I don't agree that a priest can forgive your sins; only God can forgive them. I don't believe that the Pope is holy because he's human, just like the rest of us and sins just as we do. I don't pray to Mary or believe she was holy, even though she gave birth to Jesus because she, too, was human and sinned just as we do. I believe what the Bible says about Jesus being the Way, the Truth and the Light.

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Originally Posted by this8384

I don't agree that a priest can forgive your sins; only God can forgive them.

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It isn't the priest or minister who forgives the sins. It is God who does the forgiving. The priest is acting in God's place. Since we can't see God or hear Him audibly forgive our sins, the priest takes on the role of God in the formal setting of a church service or private confessional. But anyone at anytime, OT or NT or yesterday or today or in the future, can come to God to ask forgiveness. Never does the Bible say this cannot be done privately and personally.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

It isn't the priest or minister who forgives the sins. It is God who does the forgiving. The priest is acting in God's place. Since we can't see God or hear Him audibly forgive our sins, the priest takes on the role of God in the formal setting of a church service or private confessional. But anyone at anytime, OT or NT or yesterday or today or in the future, can come to God to ask forgiveness. Never does the Bible say this cannot be done privately and personally.

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This is what I was referring to:

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Originally Posted by arcura

But my priest has the power to forgive my sins just as Jesus does.

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I agree that anyone can come to God and ask forgiveness. I don't think it's necessary to confess to a priest because a priest has no control over whether we are forgiven; that is something God chooses to do because He loves us.

this8384.
Do you believe that you can forgive sins?
I do.
Jesus taught us that and even so in prayer...
"Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us."
I believe that priests can forgive sins because Jesus gave them the power to do so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I don't believe that I can forgive sins, certainly not. I believe that I can forgive someone who may have hurt me and make a conscious decision not to harbor resentment against them. But if they don't repent of it, then it's still sin. Me not being angry about it doesn't make it okay for them to do.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

It isn't the priest or minister who forgives the sins. It is God who does the forgiving.

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OK... I agree

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The priest is acting in God's place. Since we can't see God or hear Him audibly forgive our sins, the priest takes on the role of God in the formal setting of a church service or private confessional.

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Nope this is the i~ i~ RED FLAG i~ i~ The priest never takes the role of God! Priests are partakers of what would be a heavenly calling, and should remain faithful to Jesus, The Anointed One. Their part in confession is instruction towards correctness, and in obedience of righteousness.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But anyone at anytime, OT or NT or yesterday or today or in the future, can come to God to ask forgiveness. Never does the Bible say this cannot be done privately and personally.

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Agree... From what scripture has shown, when the priest instructed confession to be done, whether it was private or the entire congregation. The priest would direct each or all to make confession unto God.

Note Isaiah when God tells us to come to Him, and together with Him talk of His promises. (Isaiah 43:26)

Isaiah 46:25-26 I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

The priest never takes the role of God! Priests are partakers of what would be a heavenly calling, and should remain faithful to Jesus, The Anointed One. Their part in confession is instruction towards correctness, and in obedience of righteousness.

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Of course that's what the priest does. When he faces the altar, he is one with the congregation, just another lamb of God. When he turns to face the congregation, as when he pronounces the forgiveness of sins, he is acting in God's stead, in His place. The same goes for the rest of the liturgy. Please ask your priest or minister. It's standard liturgical practice.

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I sometimes wonder what would have happened had Adam refused to eat and had reminded Eve of God's command about that particular tree.

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I can just hear Adam saying, "Spit it out, Eve! Quick! Spit it out before the Lord walks over here again!"

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I don't think anyone has addressed this point. In the story of the fall into sin, yes, Eve was the first to eat of the forbidden fruit, but it didn't take much to convince Adam to take a bite too. Women have historically gotten a bad rep because Eve "fell" first. I sometimes wonder what would have happened had Adam refused to eat and had reminded Eve of God's command about that particular tree.

In defense of women everywhere, I like to think that it took all the cunning of Satan to convince Eve to eat of the fruit, but it took only a few sweet words from Eve to get Adam to take a bite.

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Everyone knows that satan isn't man's greatest weakness ;D. Why did God give women such hypnotizing hips?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

In defense of women everywhere, I like to think that it took all the cunning of Satan to convince Eve to eat of the fruit, but it took only a few sweet words from Eve to get Adam to take a bite.

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I have to spread the rep, Wondergirl, but this is a great point. I always make it a point to emphasize this with students. The guys don't like it! Go figure.

All of the above sounds like a lot of pomp and circumstance to me. Too much brew-haha. If you have done wrong by God, go to God and humbly ask for his forgiveness. If you have done wrong by someone else, go to God and that person. Other than that, there is no need to involve anyone else. It is none of their business. God does not need a mediator and neither do we.

Their part in confession is instruction towards correctness, and in obedience of righteousness.

Instruction towards correctness?? That sounds strange.