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Originally Posted by Tj3

Please show us where scripture says that and where scripture tells us that there were more than those documented in the future foundation of the New Jerusalem.

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Scripture counts St. Matthias
Acts 1:25
That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

And St. Paul as Apostles.
Romans 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

That makes fourteen.

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Where does scripture dictate Apostolic succession?

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Acts 1 15And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) 16Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 19And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 20For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria,
I could not remember what you said that prompted me to respond as I did.
So I went back and carefully reread your post.
I could not find anything I disagreed with.
It appears that I must have misread something in your post.
I apologize.
Thanks for calling that to my attention.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by De Maria

otherwise, why does he mention that twisting them can lead to destruction?

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Twisting anyone's words can lead to destruction in some way, shape, or form. If I twist FrChuck's words (or ANYone's words so that I cause trouble), I could get kicked off AMHD.

Wondergirl,
For several years I have had to deal with a person who often twist what I or others say and even, at times. Also Scripture.
I have confronted him about it many times but to no avail.
I have never reported him, but have been tempted to do so.
I have come to realize that a person who has that bad habit it is so ingrained that he or she can not see that they have done any wrong.
The habit has become ingrained.
They think it is OK for them to do so.
Peace and kindness,'
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

We've been through that many times - the only education that I got from that is that as I looked into the claims that I put forward, my faith in the truth of scripture rather than the claims of tradition was increased.

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No problem. As long as you recognize that your statements made no dent on me. And I invite anyone to review those debates we had. I'm confident everyone will see that you simply evaded questions and played loose with the facts. Whilst I produced valid arguments and verifiable facts.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...re-172099.html

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ne-232879.html

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...re-252443.html

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Really? Do you deny Paul is an Apostle?

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No. Do you deny that Judas Iscariot was an original Apostle and that St. Matthias took his place?

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We've been through this before also, and your claims does not stand up to historical examination. Even Jerome opposed the Apocrypha as being canonical.

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St. Jerome included the Apocrypha in His Latin Vulgate. So obviously, he changed his mind on the matter.

Whenever you want to get back to the thread, we're all ready. Oh and for your convenience, I'll start a deuterocanon thread. We'll let the readers make up their minds who can produce more evidence and more logical answers for that argument as well.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria,
Right you are.
I'm pleased and interested in your ne thread.
I'll take a look at it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Twisting anyone's words can lead to destruction in some way, shape, or form. If I twist FrChuck's words (or ANYone's words so that I cause trouble), I could get kicked off AMHD.

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And this was a serious problem for early Christian communities: Lots of infighting. Raymond Brown's "The Community of the Beloved Disciple" is excellent on this. This is why I say it isn't obvious to me that the authors of these texts took themselves to be writing what would one day count as SCripture: They had to address the immediate needs of their communities, some of which were tearing themselves apart. (Of course, I don't think it's obvious that they took themselves NOT to be writing Scripture; sorting this out is just part and parcel of sorting out what belongs to the canon.)

Many early Christians referred to Paul as the Apostle of the Heretics since his words were routinely taken up and appropriated by so many Gnostics. (That's just an aside, really.)

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Originally Posted by Akoue

This is why I say it isn't obvious to me that the authors of these texts took themselves to be writing what would one day count as SCripture: They had to address the immediate needs of their communities, some of which were tearing themselves apart.

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I suspect Moses didn't realize the posting of the Ten Commandments would become the object of such controversy in the 21st century. Abraham Lincoln probably didn't realize the historical value of that speech he wrote on the back of an envelope on the train ride from D. C. to Gettysburg. Like these men, St. Paul, as you say, was addressing the immediate needs of people.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

…we are apparently meant to drop the topic

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Surrendering? Surrender to fate? My God, fate can’t discharge a weapon. How can we be “meant “ to do something that’s incomprehensible? Do you think warriors are made on the practice field? No, they’re made Marines on the battle field!

Do you know a better way to find the living fountain of Truth?

I have another far more solid and central ground for submitting to it as a faith, instead of merely picking up hints from it as a scheme. And that is this: that the Christian Church in its practical relation to my soul is a living teacher, not a dead one.” G. K. Chesterton.

Good Night Chesty, Wherever You Are

Semper Fi

JoeT

Way to go Joe.
Well said,
Fred

I'm not a Christian but I've been reading what you're all talking about, I find it very interesting.

Sadly I can't contribute to the discussion, just wanted to say that I'm learning a lot, very interesting stuff. :)

Merry Christmas everyone. :)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I'm not a Christian but I've been reading what you're all talking about, I find it very interesting.

Sadly I can't contribute to the discussion, just wanted to say that I'm learning alot, very interesting stuff. :)

Merry Christmas everyone. :)

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Sure you can. Just ask questions about what interests you or what may not be clear.

I'm sure somebody will clue you in. Also, most bibles have a forward in front of each book with a short explanation of who wrote and why. The dirty secret is that it makes you an instant expert. Most people don't read them

JoeT

Thanks Joe but right now I prefer to remain a spectator.

Just wanted you all to know that I'm watching. ;)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I'm not a Christian but I've been reading what you're all talking about, I find it very interesting.

Sadly I can't contribute to the discussion, just wanted to say that I'm learning alot, very interesting stuff. :)

Merry Christmas everyone. :)

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We don't mind friendly visits. Welcome and Merry Christmas to you as well.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Thanks for the welcome. :)

Just here to read and learn. It's an interesting topic.

It wouldn't be right for me to join in though, I'm not Christian, although I used to be.

I'm just enjoying your explanations and learning something in the process.

Thanks again for the warm welcome, it's very much appreciated. Now I must go wrap some presents from Santa to my kids, got to keep the traditions alive. :)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Thanks for the welcome. :)

Just here to read and learn. It's an interesting topic.

It wouldn't be right for me to join in though, I'm not Christian, although I used to be.

I'm just enjoying your explanations and learning something in the process.

Thanks again for the warm welcome, it's very much appreciated. Now I must go wrap some presents from Santa to my kids, gotta keep the traditions alive. :)

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Happy wrapping!

And, for what it's worth (and speaking only for myself), I'm always interested to hear how reasonable people think about this stuff. Some of the best teachers I had weren't Christians (some f my best students too, come to think of it), so that's no impediment as far as I can tell. Which is just to say that I really hope you won't be sheepish about offering your take on things if and when you feel inclined to do so. Rational discussion is always more fun with lots of different views in the mix.

In the meantime: Be well... and beware of paper cuts.

Hi Altenweg.
Nice to see you here even if just visiting and learning.
You are very welcome here.
Merry Christmas with peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Surrendering? Surrender to fate? My God, fate can’t discharge a weapon. How can we be “meant “ to do something that’s incomprehensible? Do you think warriors are made on the practice field? No, they’re made Marines on the battle field!

Semper Fi

JoeT

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Hoorah! Gunney, hoorah!

Ps: If a twenty fell out of your monitor please send it back. I thought it was a single when I threw it at the screen. Also, could I get a receipt? You know, for tax purposes?

Akoue,
LOL
Fred

Once again thank you for the warm welcome. Gosh, you all are making me blush a bit. Maybe I should have stayed in the shadows. ;)