Ask Me Help Desk - Why was Mary called the "Ever virgin"

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Then you are denying the eternal nature of Jesus?

No, you are.

Here's the logical syllogism again.

1. Jesus is God.
2. Mary is Jesus' mother.
3. therefore Mary is the mother of God.

But you deny this, therefore here is your logic in syllogism.

1. Mary is not the mother of God.
2. Mary is Jesus' mother.
3. therefore, Jesus is not God.

So, it is you who deny the divinity of Jesus.

Mary: Mother of God

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Scripture says only that she was the vessel through whom Jesus entered the world in the flesh, NOT that she was the mother of divinity.

No one says that Mary is eternal.

No one says that Mary is God.

But the Catholic Church says that Jesus is God the Son from all eternity and that God the Son decided to be born of Mary so He took on flesh and was conceived in her womb and was born to her in a little cave in Bethlehem and grew up to die on the Cross for our salvation.

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Scripture does not say that anywhere - oddly, no matter how many times it is shown to you what the context is, and what the word means in Greek, you ignore the facts. History shows that your denomination started in 325AD.

Not so. We simply won't accept your false history. History shows that the Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Tj3

So you say God is not a trinity?

There you go twisting words. You know that Arcura is a devout Catholic and Catholics believe in the Trinity. So what good does it do you to twist his words except to create strawmen and to poison wells.

In essence, it is just another indication that you don't have any compunction to misrepresent the teaching of the Catholic Church which Arcura represents admirably.

De Maria,
I see that you know Tj3 well and accurately.
You are correct.
Authentic History proves beyond doubt that The Church began 2000 years ago with Peter as it's first leader and that it still exists bigger than ever today.
Also, as the bible so indicates, Mary IS the mother of God the Son.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

No, you are.

Here's the logical syllogism again.

1. Jesus is God.
2. Mary is Jesus' mother.
3. therefore Mary is the mother of God.

That is true ONLY if you deny that Jesus is eternal, and the trinity. And if you make Mary divine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Authentic History proves beyond doubt that The Church began 2000 years ago

The Church began 2000 years ago. Your denomination began 300 years later.

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with Peter as it's first leader and that it still exists bigger than ever today.

Jesus is the only head that the one and only true church has ever had. Peter would have had to have been over 300 years old to be your denomination's first leader.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

That is true ONLY if you deny that Jesus is eternal, and the trinity. And if you make Mary divine.

Mary doesn't need to be divine for God to be born of her.

Do you deny that Jesus is God?
Do you deny that Mary is Jesus' mother?

If you deny either of those then you deny Scripture. If you affirm both of those, then you affirm the logical consequence. Mary is the mother of God.

However, if you deny that Mary is the mother of God, then you deny that Jesus is God. Because if you deny that Mary is the mother of God, then she can't be the mother of Jesus who is God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Mary doesn't need to be divine for God to be born of her.

But she does, and for divinity to be born of Mary, she would have to pre-exist God.

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Do you deny that Jesus is God?
Do you deny that Mary is Jesus' mother?

Rather than your suggestions, let me tell you what I do believe:

- God is from eternity - Mary is not. Mary could not have conceived or birthed divinity
- God is a trinity. Mary did not give birth to the trinity.
- God created Mary, therefore Mary did not conceive divinity.

God chose Mary as a vessel through whom He would enter the world in the flesh. Mary is the mother of Jesus in the flesh.

I believe what scripture says. I do not extrapolate beyond what scripture says. Nowhere in scripture does it say that God began with Mary giving birth.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

The Church began 2000 years ago.

The Catholic Church.

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Your denomination began 300 years later.

False.

John Henry Cardinal Newman on when the Catholic Church was born:

Today the birthday of the Catholic Church, for the Gentiles came to it. From eternity in the councils of God. At length in time it began to be; it was conceived and lay in the womb. Its vital principle faith, therefore with Abraham especially it began. It remained in the womb of former dispensations its due time; long expectations; burstings of hope, till the time came; and was born when Christ came.
Newman Reader - Sermon Notes

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Jesus is the only head that the one and only true church has ever had. Peter would have had to have been over 300 years old to be your denomination's first leader.

If you twist history around your little thumb. But Scripture says when Jesus appointed Peter as the Church leader:

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

But she does, and for divinity to be born of Mary, she would have to pre-exist God.

Rather than your suggestions, let me tell you what I do believe:

- God is from eternity - Mary is not. mary could not have conceived or birthed divinity
- God is a trinity. Mary did not give birth to the trinity.
- God created Mary, therefore Mary did not conceive divinity.

God chose Mary as a vessel through whom He would enter the world in the flesh. Mary is the mother of Jesus in the flesh.

I believe what scripture says. I do not extrapolate beyond what scripture says. Nowhere in scripture does it say that God began with Mary giving birth.

Then you are denying Christ's Divinity. Because Jesus Christ is God even before He was matriculated in Mary's womb. And He is God after He was born of Her womb. Therefore Mary is the Mother of God because she is the mother of Jesus who is God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

The Catholic Church.

The Catholic denomination began in 325AD - we've been through this before.

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If you twist history around your little thumb. But Scripture says when Jesus appointed Peter as the Church leader:

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Sigh - you never get tired of taking that out of context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Jesus Christ is God even before He was matriculated in Mary's womb.

He was God long before He was in Mary's womb - that is why Mary is not the mother of God. You have just admitted that Mary cannot be the mother of God.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

If Mary is the mother of God, who is the father of God?

This is a good question that deserves an answer.

Tj3,
You are wrong about the Catholic Church and that Mary needed to be divine to give birth to God the Son and you have been wrong for a long time.
I have corrected you about that for years and provided biblical and historic proof which you continue to try to discredit or deny.
That's the facts; THE TRUTH.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
You are wrong about the Catholic Church and that Mary needed to be divine to give birth to God the Son and you have been wrong for a long time.

Fred, all you ever do is tell us about your private beliefs and interpretations. I do not consider you the authority - I consider the word of God to be the authority.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

This is a good question that deserves an answer.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
If Mary is the mother of God, who is the father of God?

Good question Wondergirl. I couldn't find your post to answer it directly but the answer is simple.

Jesus' earthly mother is Mary. He has no earthly Father. However His earthly step father is St. Joseph.

The logical syllogism holds for St. Joseph.

1. Jesus is God.
2. St. Joseph is Jesus' earthly step father.
3. St. Joseph is God's earthly step father.

To deny it is to deny Jesus' Divinity.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Fred, all you ever do is tell us about your private beliefs and interpretations. I do not consider you the authority - I consider the word of God to be the authority.

If you considered the Word of God the authority, then you wouldn't deny that Mary is the mother of God:

Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

3. St. Joseph is God's earthly step father.

To show you how silly these syllogisms that you created are, let's assume that your claims are facts.

1)
Jesus is the Son of God.
Mary is the Mother of God.
Therefore Mary is the Grandmother of Jesus.

2)
Mary is the Mother of God.
Jesus is the Son of God
Therefore Mary is the wife of God the Father.

I could go on and on. The key issue is that once you leave out the truth of the trinity from the premise of the syllogism, you can come up with all sorts of silly conclusions.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

If you considered the Word of God the authority, then you wouldn't deny that Mary is the mother of God:

Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

This actually argues against you. Elizabeth did NOT say "mother of God", but rather chose another term indicating authority, used of both men and of God. Jesus is Lord, yes, and Mary was the mother of Jesus in the flesh, but it is interesting that she chose the term "Lord" rather than "God" to describe Mary's status.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

This actually argues against you. Elizabeth did NOT say "mother of God", but rather chose another term indicating authority, used of both men and of God. Jesus is Lord, yes, and Mary was the mother of Jesus in the flesh, but it is interesting that she chose the term "Lord" rather than "God" to describe Mary's status.

Merriam-Webster online dictionary: lord -- a ruler by hereditary right or preeminence to whom service and obedience are due

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

This actually argues against you. Elizabeth did NOT say "mother of God", but rather chose another term indicating authority, used of both men and of God. Jesus is Lord, yes, and Mary was the mother of Jesus in the flesh, but it is interesting that she chose the term "Lord" rather than "God" to describe Mary's status.

Let me get this straight, you are arguing that the Holy Spirit inspired St. Elizabeth to say that Jesus is not God?