Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

But Fred, Romans 3:23 says that no one has done what He says.

Then you think that scripture is wrong?

---

Of course not. Fred is a faithful Catholic and Catholics believe the Scriptures are inerrant.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

As you can see, the Scriptures say that Christ saves those who obey Him.

Quote:

---

2 Tim 1:8-10
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

---

This letter is addressed to TIMOTHY. So, St. Paul is saying that HE AND TIMOTHY are saved. Can St. Paul be certain that he and St. Timothy are saved. Yes. The Church teaches that one can be certain of salvation if it is revealed by private revelation. Since, St. Paul was taken to the seven heavens, we can be sure that God revealed many things to him.

The Council of Trent states: "If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema"(Council of Trent, Canon 16).

Quote:

---

Titus 3:4-8
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV

---

Baptism now saves us. The washing of regeneration refers to WATER and renewing of the Holy Spirit, refers to SPIRIT.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I think that verse covers the works thing perfectly because it says not according to our works but according to our purpose.
As I was saying before we can do all the good works and not be saved BUT are we where God wants us doing what he wants us to do [purpose!]

---

How does 2Tim.1.8-10 help Tj. No one has argued that we can be saved by works ALONE?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I think that verse covers the works thing perfectly because it says not according to our works but according to our purpose.
As I was saying before we can do all the good works and not be saved BUT are we where God wants us doing what he wants us to do [purpose!]

---

That's Catholic Teaching. We do the works of God. We obey God in our works. That is why they are called "good works".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Akoue,

Having seen your handling of the word of God, as I said before, your criticism carries no weight at all.

---

Quote one or more of my discussions of Scripture and explain to me how I got it wrong.

Tj3,
You have not ever successful refuted what the Cheat Sheet provides. You have attempted to but as usual fell flat on your face.
The reason is that that sheet provides passage from Scripture and some cases is backed up by real authentic history not your bogus version.
So please do not claim that you have successfully refuted it because that is NOT true.
Or do you LIKE to say not true things?
It does seem so.
Fred

Akoue,
He can not or will not.
So is his history.
Fred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

Thats Catholic Teaching. We do the works of God. We obey God in our works. That is why they are called "good works".

---

Many believe they are doing God's work such as professing Christians that think they can 'earn' their salvation. So again I ask what do you think are good works of God?
Is it baking for the Church social?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Many believe they are doing God's work such as professing Christians that think they can 'earn' their salvation. So again I ask what do you think are good works of God?
Is it baking for the Church social?

---

And anybody who thinks they can "earn" salvation is mistaken. We've said that all along. That is not to say that works aren't still necessary for salvation. These are importantly distinct claims.

De Maria,
Good work with that answer to NoHlep4U.
We are asked (Biblically speaking) to do certain works and work of God.
The bible also says that we will be judged by our works good and bad.
Is there any passages that say that how bad, good, week, strong, or whatever our faith is will be judged?
Fred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Many believe they are doing God's work such as professing Christians that think they can 'earn' their salvation. So again I ask what do you think are good works of God?
Is it baking for the Church social?

---

Read Matt 25, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and inprison, clothing the naked.
Read St. James, caring for widows and orphans.

In addition to Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Holy Orders, Matrimony, Extreme Unction, attending Mass etc. etc.

These are all good works. And I don't think baking for the Church social is disqualified either.

Here is the problem I have with Christians that believe their doing good works is what saves them. As I have said you can be doing good works for God but is it what God wants you to be doing?
I see many Christians that get on a 'campaign' to help a person or group out (like baking for the church rummage sale) yet they neglect to see or help the needy person sitting on the pew next to them. They are so busy doing the things that they feel important yet the person on the pew next to them they have the attitude that it is their own problem or fault if they are needy. When God could be wanting them to actually be helping them out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Here is the problem I have with Christians that believe their doing good works is what saves them. As I have said you can be doing good works for God but is it what God wants you to be doing?
I see many Christians that get on a 'campaign' to help a person or group out (like baking for the church rummage sale) yet they neglect to see or help the needy person sitting on the pew next to them. They are so busy doing the things that they feel important yet the person on the pew next to them they have the attitude that it is their own problem or fault if they are needy. When God could be wanting them to actually be helping them out.

---

Of course, your works have to be in harmony with GOd's will. Nobody disputes that. Good works are to be performed in a spirit of humility. See James 2.14-17: If you send away someone on need of food and clothing, your faith alone will not save you.

N0help4u,
No one can earn a free trip to heaven.
Yes making food for a Church social can be considered to be a good work.
We just had one and the money made went for charitable purposes such as the food bank to feed the hungry.
We are to produce good fruit which is harvested by others.
That is a good work.
A good work is to provide the truth about the Gospel and to spread it.
I could name many good works which God has indicated are pleasing in His eyes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akoue

And anybody who thinks they can "earn" salvation is mistaken. We've said that all along. That is not to say that works aren't still necessary for salvation. These are importantly distinct claims.

---

It has to do with obedience.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Exodus 23:22
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

Deuteronomy 11:27
A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Here is the problem I have with Christians that believe their doing good works is what saves them. As I have said you can be doing good works for God but is it what God wants you to be doing?
I see many Christians that get on a 'campaign' to help a person or group out (like baking for the church rummage sale) yet they neglect to see or help the needy person sitting on the pew next to them. They are so busy doing the things that they feel important yet the person on the pew next to them they have the attitude that it is their own problem or fault if they are needy. When God could be wanting them to actually be helping them out.

---

What makes you decide whom should be helped and who shouldn't?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akoue

Let's look at James 2 for a minute. You tell us to look at the context. The context, reading from James 2.14: We get the question, "What good is it, my brothers, is someone says he has faith [pistin] but does not have works [erga]? CAN THAT FAITH SAVE HIM [me dunatai he pistis sosai auton]?" Then, in vv.16-17 we are given an example: If someone has nothing to wear and has no food, "and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace'" without providing for their needs, "what good is it"? Now verse 17: "So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead [houtos hai he pistis, ean me eche erga, nekra estin kath' heauten]"--it is not a living faith.

Now v.20: "Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless [Theleis de gnonai, ho anthrope kene, hoti he pistis choris ton ergon arge estin]?"

Now v.21: "Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS [ex ergon] when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar. <22> You see that faith [he pistis] was active along with his works [tois ergois autou], and faith [he pistis] was completed by the works [ek ton ergon]."

It looks to me like what's required is both faith and works together, as I've been saying, so that neither alone (i.e., in the absence of the other) is sufficient.

Where on earth are you getting this bizzaro faith/faithfulness business? The word is "pistis"--faith. If the NT were making a distinction between "faith" and "faithfulness" wouldn't you expect it to have been made in the Gk? But what you find in the Gk. is just "pistis". So you are trying to read a distinction drawn in English--faith/faithfulness--into the NT, which has only the word "pistis".

---

Good job Akoue and this comes from a Greek!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

It has to do with obedience.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Exodus 23:22
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

Deuteronomy 11:27
A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

---

Yes, and your intentions matter. An act undertaken out of a desire to be "puffed up" is devalued thereby. In adjudicating our actions, God adjudicates our intentions. Obedience provides for both rectitude and stability: If we cultivate the habitus of acting from obedience, we will be more likely to perform actions in harmony with God's will and purposes when those actions involve sacrifice or hardship.

Well, its been fun. Good night all.

De Maria.
I agree.
Have a good sleep.
You have earned it.
Good night,
Fred

Time for me to sign off too. Good night, all, and be well.

It seems to me that we are just waiting for someone to write something ''strange'' so that we can attack!We show no efford to understand someone's point of view and take it a liitle bit further from what is written.We enjoy playing with words and we seem to be word servants instead of making the words working for us.I see no hunger to share , I only see the will to justify our opinions.
I am very sad with this, I cannot believe the bloodbath here.I am sure that Satan is laughing at us right this moment!
You spend so much of yourselves and what good came out of it?
Who got closer to Christ through this?What glory did Jesus gain from all this?What kind of reward do you think Jesus will give us for this?
Please remember your first love!How difficult can it be?Is it easier for us to hurt our brothers than to fight the enemy?
You turned my Father's house into a house of a killer!

Genesis 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

How can't you see?There is only A river, the River of Life, Jesus and this river is parted .I have one part , you have one part, he has one part, they have one part and we should ALL water the Garden.But instead we turn ourselves against each other , so no good comes out of it.No water is reaching the garden to water it!There is only a mess everywhere!!
God has given us a part of Himself , for one purpose... to water the garden.Are we doing this?Do we obey Him?If someone believes that through faith we are saved , he is right, but is this faith?Are we faithfull to Him?Do we show ANY faith to Him?If someone believes that faith without works is dead , he is right but is this how we work for Him?Are these our faith and works?
A non believer would turn as far away as he could from Jesus just because of us, because we are an awfull example!
There is no light in us that could take away the darkness from the world.If there was ANY light in us , Jesus would have put us in a place where EVERYBODY could see our light and everybody would have admitt that WE HAVE CHRIST IN US!!
No wonder the world remains in darkness!
Aren't we the salt of the world?And if the world is like it is , aren't we also to blame?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akoue

How does 2Tim.1.8-10 help Tj. No one has argued that we can be saved by works ALONE?

---

Read it. It does not say "Not accordingly to works alone...", but it says "...not according to works".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

It has to do with obedience.

---

De Maria,

Tell me one person other than Jesus who has been perfectly obedient (Rom 3:23), keeping in mind that partial obedience is not an option if you seek to use works for salvation (James 2:10).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akoue

And anybody who thinks they can "earn" salvation is mistaken. We've said that all along. That is not to say that works aren't still necessary for salvation. These are importantly distinct claims.

---

No, because if you must do something or your do not receive something in return, that is "earning" it. If you say that works are essential to be saved, then you are saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient and that man's works can fill that gap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

De Maria,

Tell me one person other than Jesus who has been perfectly obedient ,

---

Why? What does that have to do with the FACT that Scripture says that Jesus will save those who obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Quote:

---

(Rom 3:23)

---

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5: 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Quote:

---

keeping in mind that partial obedience is not an option if you seek to use works for salvation (James 2:10).

---

You don't understand. We who are living in the law of grace are EXPECTED TO BE PERFECT. That is what St. James means:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Understand that we no longer live by the Law of Moses, but by the Law of Jesus:

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Living under Jesus' law, we must refrain from sin:

Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

So, if you think that being a Christian, you now have a license to ignore the Commandments, you are gravely mistaken:

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 3: 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Read it.

---

OK.

Quote:

---

It does not say "Not accordingly to works alone...", but it says "...not according to works".

---

Quote:

---

2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord,

---

Therefore, we must not be ashamed to let people know we are Christians.

Quote:

---

nor of me his prisoner:

---

Nor should we be ashamed to let people know that we also follow St. Paul and our leaders in the Faith.

Quote:

---

but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel

---

But unite yourself with the Gospel and suffer with Christ. As the same Apostle says elsewhere:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

This means that if we suffer with Jesus, we will be glorified and if we don't suffer with Jesus, we won't be glorified with Him.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

In essence, suffering is a work which perfects our faith.

1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Quote:

---

according to the power of God;

---

According to God's will.

Quote:

---

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,

---

Who has saved us and called us by the Sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son.

Quote:

---

not according to our works,

---

Because neither faith nor works could merit that Jesus come in the flesh and die for our sins.

Quote:

---

but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

---

But according to His will which is that those whom obey Him should be saved:

Deut 30: 15See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

Quote:

---

10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

---

But Jesus Christ has died in order to bring life to those who obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

De Maria,

Tell me one person other than Jesus who has been perfectly obedient (Rom 3:23), keeping in mind that partial obedience is not an option if you seek to use works for salvation (James 2:10).

---

Tell us then why does Peter exhort us to holiness in life trhough obedience in the first book of Peter chapter 1? 1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy.

And in Luke we see a call to holiness:Luke 1:74 That being delivered from the hand of our enemies, we may serve him without fear:75 In holiness and justice before him, all our days.

JoeT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

No, because if you must do something or your do not receive something in return, that is "earning" it. If you say that works are essential to be saved, then you are saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient and that man's works can fill that gap.

---

Well, then, by your reasoning we "earn" salvation by having faith since, as you yourself have said, we do not receive salvation unless we have faith (quid pro quo).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

De Maria,

Tell me one person other than Jesus who has been perfectly obedient (Rom 3:23), keeping in mind that partial obedience is not an option if you seek to use works for salvation (James 2:10).

---

Rm.3.23: Right, all have sinned and so all require grace. Haven't I said this all along?
James 2.10: Here again you are failing to observe the facts that there are works apart from the Mosaic Law. James in this verse is talking about the Law, the Law of the Pentateuch. He's not talking about all works of any kind. So it doesn't speak to the point you wish to make.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

Why? What does that have to do with the FACT that Scripture says that Jesus will save those who obey Him?

---

Because if you are relating that to your works, then you must obey perfectly. There is a difference here. Those who believe in the Biblical gospel depend upon obedience to the gospel for salvation and the fact that Jesus sacrifice on the cross pays the full price with no works from us required.

Those who hold to the works gospel believe that the works of obedience are required, which places you back under the law. Once you believe that it is YOU paying even part through your works, you are back under the law and must obey perfectly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Tell us then why does Peter exhort us to holiness in life trhough obedience in the first book of Peter chapter 1? 1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy.

---

Whose holiness is it? Ours or His?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akoue

Well, then, by your reasoning we "earn" salvation by having faith since, as you yourself have said, we do not receive salvation unless we have faith (quid pro quo).

---

We receive our faith from God.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akoue

Rm.3.23: Right, all have sinned and so all require grace. Haven't I said this all along?

---

But you say that grace will only pay paart of it, because works are also required.

Quote:

---

James 2.10: Here again you are failing to observe the facts that there are works apart from the Mosaic Law. James in this verse is talking about the Law, the Law of the Pentateuch. He's not talking about all works of any kind. So it doesn't speak to the point you wish to make.

---

We've been through that - like I said, you like repetition. Nothing here limits this to the Mosaic law.

Reality is that we fail with the flesh body, but just as that is a reality of life, so is God and His desires for our love and thankfulness a Higher Reality in Free Will.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

It is written that we are to not to be ignorance in knowing, that all was done in ensample for us. Knowing that we are to please God in obedience and thankfulness. Showing in our own walk to follow, the glory unto all that was given to us. The ensample was that they all did drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.(1 Cr 10:4 ) Yet remember that God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. ( 1 Cr 10:5)

1 Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1 Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

1 Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

1 Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

( Tts 2:9 exhort in obedience )

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:14 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? {{{{God forbid.}}}}

Romans 6:15 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:16 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1 Kings 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

Free Will to follow Christ. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. The rich man can be any man that have taken the wrong path. The retirement that comes, after a preacher has taught the wrong lesson and God reveals the Spiritual Truth.Can the preacher then give up that retirement, and what he led as a good life, to then follow the righteous path that God revealed ? Or will that preacher continue on his own pride, and try to justify what he has done by saying it is forgiveable?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

But you say that grace will only pay paart of it, because works are also required.

---

It is required that you respond to grace, yes.

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

2 Corinthians 6:1
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

We receive our faith from God.

---

Has anyone doubted that?

But if we don't exercise our God given faith, are we saved?

The case is the same with works. God works through us. But if we don't permit Him to work through us, we receive His grace in vain:

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

But you say that grace will only pay paart of it, because works are also required.



We've been through that - like I said, you like repetition. Nothing here limits this to the Mosaic law.

---

Let's say you give your daughter a bicycle for her birthday. You give her the bike, teach her to ride it, and tell her that she isn't to ride it in the street, she isn't to venture beyond a boundary which you delimit for her, she's to bring it into the garage when she's done riding it, etc. You tell her that she has to take care of the bike and you show her how. In time you find that she's riding in the street, exceeding the boundaries you assigned, leaving the bike out in the rain and snow. So, finally, you take the bike away from her.

Now it looks to me like the gift had not been earned: It was freely given; you didn't offer it to her in repayment for any work she had done. (Christ's incarnation, death, and resurrection was gratuitous; his gift of grace is gratuitous.) But, by her actions, she lost the gift, it was removed from her on account of what she had done, the way she acted in the light of that gift. Similarly here: Our works do not earn us the gift of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. But this isn't to say that they aren't necessary for the eternal salvation of our souls. The gift that has been offered can be lost if, by our actions, we reject it.

Akoue,

Yes well when you kick her out of your family for riding the bike in the street... then let me know. LOL.. not the same at all.

He paid the price.. we accept or reject it. AND by the way, we are SEALED with the HOLY SPIRIT of promise. SEALED is SEALED. He said he would NEver no NEVER no not EVER leave us for forsake us. Never means just that. You say well you left him.. and I submit to you... Jesus said... I will NEVER leave you. There is no condition. No strings attached. IT IS FINISHED!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

We've been through that - like I said, you like repetition. Nothing here limits this to the Mosaic law.

---

Repetition is an invaluable instructional tool, yes.

You say that nothing "limits" it to the Mosaic law? Does anything said here explicitly extend it beyond the Mosaic Law? What law might it be talking about? Any law at all? Like the law to love one another? Christ explicitly offers this as A LAW (the Gospel calls it that).