So why are you arguing about it? It must not be very clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
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So why are you arguing about it? It must not be very clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Keep in mind that some people do not base their doctrine solely on the Bible - for some it is the denominational interpretation or additions to the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
In any case, [people are not perfect though God's word is - God told us to correct and study with each other, and thus disagreeing is not an issue on non-essentials. The important thing is to be willing to submit our views to the word of God.
You are welcome to join the discussion on the topic.
Okay,, think of it this way and I hope I am explaining correctly..Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
This is way I say unlike what churches teach today, Christ blood shed set us free from sin. That included OT and NT... What was once leaving us in a curse of sin, has taken the curse away. The one time blood sacrifice that brought us back to the image of righteousness in which we were created to be. We are no longer filthy rags, because once we leave the law which told of sin. We are now to establish the LAW of Faith.
ok
Think I'm going to unsubscribe because all this disagreement is driving me nuts. Talk about beating a dead horse. Give it a rest. Why don't you just agree to disagree? See you around.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
This being the case, then we can look at the plan of salvation, whether in the OT or NT as one and the same plan, with the cross as the center of history, those saints in the OT looking forward to the coming of the cross, and those in our timeframe looking back at the death of Christ on the cross and His resurrection.
Do we agree?
Tom, people do not like this because this is saying no to sin.. Not permitted to be filthy rags but to be righteous, and as one with Christ is far more then what they will say is possible. That is what brings in the works and faith as one.
It is not easy but it is the cross we bear in our love for God.
Be ye holy for I am HOLY
Yes.. But you have to look for the sacrifice you bear carrying the cross It means you follow Christ in One LORD ONE Faith One Baptism= SALVATIONQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I know that people don't like it. Because today people don't want to know that sin exists - because once it does, they must respond. And it also means that there is nothing that we can do to earn our salvation, it is through Christ's sacrifice on the cross alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Yes, right - once we are saved, we need to follow Christ, and we are to be obedient to Him. Scripture says that none of us are perfect in that regard, but as the Holy Spirit indwelling us guides us, we will grow to be more the person that God wants us to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
That being the case, we also agree that we must follow Christ in One LORD ONE Faith One Baptism= SALVATION.
In John 7:39 we are told that ALL who believe in Christ receive the Holy Spirit. And we cannot receive the Holy Spirit unless we first belief in One Lord, through the One Faith in Him. So once we receive Jesus as Saviour, we share the One Lord, One Faith and One baptism with all true believers.
After we are saved, we follow the Lord in obedience in water baptism.
Hold on Tom... You are right sin does exist. And people like the ability to sled along and do nothing in return. What comes once you realize you have been set free (REJOICE) indeed. but then walk in Christ as He will dwell within you. But if one returns to unrighteousness and sin intentional, there is not being saved a second time. You must think before doing, and out of love for Christ's sacrifice bear the cross.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I would give you green but it won't let me.. REJOICE... You have said it..Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Agreed, with one variation.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
You said
"But if one returns to unrighteousness and sin intentional, there is not being saved a second time. "
I would re-word this to say:
"But if one returns to rejecting Christ as Saviour, there is not being saved a second time. "
1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I think the verse I am thinking of is in Hebrews.. I know we have discussed it before. It says unrighteousness
Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Heb 6:3-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV
Yes, and from here Tom the truth continues in strong meat where you leave the milk of babes (Hebrews 5:13)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Newness of Life in Christ
Eph 4:23-24 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Yes, and it is Hebrews 6 which makes it clear that we can reject Christ after being saved, and ceased to be saved, but there is no second salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Yes...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
And we are no longer servants because Christ calls them that follow, HIS friend
James 2:23-24 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
It is important to understand what the word "faith" means. In Greek the word "faith" is the same as "faithfulness". So when we say that faith without works is dead, the context can be understood if we read it also as "faithfulness without works is dead".Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
In other words, it is not the works themselves which are important, but rather our faithfulness is exhibited in our works. If there are no works, in what way are we being faithful? And ultimately, if we are not being faithful, do we truly have faith?
Could not agree with you more..Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
I have been studying the scripture concerning the perfecting faith.
Peace and kindness is my wish and hope for all, all the time.
Fred
Hello my brother!Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Your way of expressing yourself is sometimes difficult for me to follow since English is not my mother language,but I admire the chained ideas that you describe many times.
I will try harder to follow you!God bless you!
Once again,twisting words!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Was really every saint in the OT on a cross with Jesus?
If so then you must change the photo that you have on your profile and add some thousand more!
I surely meant the position of the cross,literally!!
How were OT people saved?By obeying the law,which from A-Z is Jesus Christ, so obeying the law is obeying Christ!
Both OT and NT believers are saved by Christ who is the same yesterday,today and forever!
Doesn't this make you think at least?
Isn't it clear for you that the sacrifise of Jesus repleaced the sacrifise of animals?
Replacing is not saying that what was till then is wrong , but as Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and not cancel it!
To speak in modern language , the sacrifise of Jesus is an update of the sacrifice of animals!
Ro 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by works of law For they stumbled at that stumbling stone
Ga 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified
Ga 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them"
Your false accusations are really becoming tiring - give it a rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
They were all in the same situation in that none of then had Christian baptism, therefore you cannot say that the thief on the cross is an individual case - in fact up to that point, none of the saint were so baptized. If baptized was essential for salvation, then they would all be dead in their sins.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
Gal 3:21-22Quote:
How were OT people saved?By obeying the law,which from A-Z is Jesus Christ, so obeying the law is obeying Christ!
For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
NKJV
1 Tim 1:9-11
9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
NKJV
According to scripture, Christ did not replace the animals, rather than animals were prophetic of Christ and the sacrifices were pointing to the true source of their salvationQuote:
Isn't it clear for you that the sacrifise of Jesus repleaced the sacrifise of animals?
Heb 10:3-4
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
NKJV
Heb 10:11-12
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
NKJV
Heb 10:12-15
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV
adam7gur and Tom,Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I can't detail much at this time because of my schedule...
However please recognize the (OT) law of sin having to follow in circumcision. (NT) law of Faith is circumcision of the heart.
The theif on the cross for all we know was circumcised at birth by the law of sin they followed. Baptism is (NT) law of Faith
Circumcision never saved, just as water baptism does not save. Scripture tells us this. Circumcision was symbolic and prophetic of the circumcision of our hearts that takes place when we submit ourselves to Christ. The circumcision itself does not save, nor did it ever. Notice here we are told that there were men walking in faith with God prior to being circumcised:Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Rom 4:11-12
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
NKJV
Likewise, if you truly want to understand baptism, you need to understand the Jewish Mikveh. The Mikveh IS baptism. It IS what John was doing, and it is what we do today. Yet the OT Mikveh was, according to scripture symbolic of Christ who was to come, and is fulfilled in Christ. We therefore do it today as symbolism (according to Romans 6, Heb 9 and others) of what Christ has done for us.
Tom the statement makes void the reference of 1 Peter 3:21-22Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
ONE Baptism is in like figure to Jesus and water of Noah, that it also saves us .
(1 Peter 3:21-22 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
We can say the same about the Gentiles being baptized. Even when they were reveal truth by the spirit< they were still baptized And I will add, you are saying baptism is symbolic water, just as circumcision. The difference is we are told baptism does save.. NOT by put away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward GodQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
This is the spiritual body within, the conscience, the heart mind and soul.. Jesus took care of the flesh body. Plus He set us free from the curse, and the law of sin. Chirst brought us salvation
Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
OT circumcision =(a seal of the righteousness)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
NT baptism = Jesus said-- (fulfil all righteousness)
Let's look at the passage in contextQuote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
NKJV
We see three things discussed here:
1) Noah's Ark and its role in saving people through the flood
2) Water baptism
3) The gospel and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
This passage relates these three items by showing how they relate. First Peter speaks the death of Christ on the cross, setting the focus for the passage. As a result of this passage, we know that the focus of the verses that follow are regarding the death of Christ on the cross for our sins.
This death for our sins is then compared, to the flood, with the flood discussed as a symbolic “type” or comparison to salvation which come through the cross of Christ. An anti-type means a replacement or a contrast. This when we are told about one type, and then we are told that there is an anti-type, what we see here is a contrasting type of the death on the cross.
This understanding also agrees with what Paul said in Romans 6 where he identifies baptism as a “likeness” or symbolic of the death and resurrection on the cross:
Rom 6:3-7
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV
So we find that Romans 6 and 1 Peter 3 are telling us the same thing – baptism is symbolic.
Look at what I said above. We cannot take a small passage out of context.Quote:
We can say the same about the Gentiles being baptized. Even when they were reveal truth by the spirit< they were still baptized And I will add, you are saying baptism is symbolic water, just as circumcision. The difference is we are told baptism does save..
Which baptism is the ONE baptism, water or the Holy Spirit?Quote:
Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
adam7gur ans sndbay,
I agree with you on this and the Scripture you sited confirms it.
Fred
1. is the Comparison flood of water.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
However 2. and 3. are the (joining of one hope) of the calling in salvation. That hope in calling joins us to One Lord/Christ,
One faith/flesh sins gone by the begotten son of God who is worthy and righteousness,
One baptism/ the spirit dwelling mind and heart
Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Chirst was of flesh with the dwelling of the Holy Spirit joined as ONE in righteousness. I have reference scripture which says you can not say Christ was Lord otherwise.
Christ is One with The Father...
We are called to be one with Christ. We walk in HIM and He dwells in us.= One hope in salvation
It is the death of sin on the cross, Christ was raised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I can agree, it is the comparison. I did example that comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Yes and able to raise as Christ was raised...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
One Lord One Faith One Baptism = the joined answering to the calling of salvation
adam7gur,Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
I understand that differences in languarge can be hard to follow.
(In prayer) = In the spirit of Christ Jesus, may we be all that God created us to be. His strength to keep us in HIS way, doing the Will of GOD, who we follow.
In Jesus Name, Amen
Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
That is your claim, but that is not what we find in scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Which is the ONE baptism, water or the Holy Spirit?Quote:
Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
That would make the baptism of the Holy Spirit being the ONE baptism. I agree.Quote:
Chirst was of flesh with the dwelling of the Holy Spirit joined as ONE in righteousness. I have reference scripture which says you can not say Christ was Lord otherwise.
Then being a comparison, the water does not save, but rather is compared to the event which does provide our salvation.Quote:
I can agree, it is the comparison. I did example that comparison.
Remember the body is weak so Christ shed HIS blood for the body.. There spirit is willing, so we do want to walk in the spirtual dwelling of Christ, and can do so once baptized. That willingness is witness by heaven, and baptism is the HOLY SPIRIT part to dwell within us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
We have not gotten to the facts on the flesh body being dead in Christ verses asleep in HIM.. And that would be another thread. It addresses the challenge of a person that did confess faith, but died of the flesh before baptized. We can't judge this, but Christ does. Point is the dead in Christ rise first... The first to rise are them that are baptized in Christ and have confessed faith. The twinking of the eye is to become of the spiritual body, and leaving the flesh. Christ will return as the great brightness of light(spiritual body)... Anyone proclaiming to be Christ is 666 (flesh man)..
The WORD = Christ has foretold us all things...
Tom, Most assuredly nothing of man's hands other then Christ saves us. It is not the church that baptizes us but the reality of the HOLY SPIRIT coming within us. It does not take a priest to baptize, for many baptized in scripture that were not priest. And John, himself was baptized, not by himself but by the HOLY SPIRIT from womb(OT)...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Note being that (NT) says reborn at an old age in confession of faith in Christ. We must establish the law of Faith in (NT).. being baptized symbolic of water = comparison of flood, and spiritual of the mind and heart = HOLY SPIRIT
p.s. Willing heart and mind to go forward on their own to be baptized..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
ONE BAPTISM
symbolic of water = comparison of flood
Spiritual of the mind and heart = HOLY SPIRIT
~In Christ
Then the ONE baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Okay...Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
This is the part that you yet need to prove from scripture.Quote:
and can do so once baptized.
Right - the ONE baptism is that of the Holy Spirit.Quote:
Tom, Most assuredly nothing of man's hands other then Christ saves us. It is not the church that baptizes us but the reality of the HOLY SPIRIT coming within us.
1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
1 John 2:29 If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him.
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
*******************************
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Continue: so if we are baptized:( Romans 6:5 [/B] For "if "we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection):
Continue: Our body might be destroyed/crucified/ not ever to serve sin (Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. )
So the revealed truth is that Christ dead for sin, and raised... He set us free from the curse of sin. We are able in baptism, thereafter never to return to sin, because we are dead in HIS likeness.
Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Death is satan... satan has no more dominion over Christ. We are sealed in the righteosuness of Christ, HIS likness. Dead and buried in Christ.
YES... Remembering that Christ is one body with the HOLY SPIRIT, and HIS FatherQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
So Tom is one body with HOLY SPIRIT and CHRIST (by baptism)
John 17:21-22That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
John 17: 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
I'll deal with the other comments when I have more time, but I just want to note that you add "by baptism", which is not found in scripture. Rather than telling me, find a scripture verse which, on context, validates that claim, and I'll gladly concede. But I won't believe it just because you tell me.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
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