Ask Me Help Desk - God's love is conditional? Doesn't add up.

this8384,
Good questions.
Thanks for asking them,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

this8384,
Good questions.
Thanks for asking them,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl, not this8384, is asking the questions.

Wondergirl
Cookies??
LOL
I thought it was fruit from a fruit tree.
Y think that It was a test to see if man would obey God,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

So why did God plunk those delicious-smelling, warm and fresh chocolate chip cookies in front of them? He's omniscent. He knew what would happen. He knew they would grab a cookie and eat it. He knew they would sin. He knew they would need a Savior. Why start the ball rolling with the plate of cookies?

I don't know. For giggles?

Don't forget, though, God's foreknowlegde isn't causally necessitating. His knowing what would happen didn't cause it to happen. Hence this8384's point about free will. I think we are bound to run into a serious roadblock with your question--though it's a question I share, and for which I can't find a satisfying answer: The why-questions can be pushed all the way back. Why create in the first place? I feel the force of the questions, even though I'm not entirely sure the questions are the right ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl
cookies???
LOL
I thought it was fruit from a fruit tree.

The Bible never says fruit tree. Adam and Eve ate of the tree's "fruit," what has been produced by the tree. I'm thinking it was a chocolate chip cookie tree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

I don't know. For giggles?

Don't forget, though, God's foreknowlegde isn't causally necessitating. His knowing what would happen didn't cause it to happen. Hence this8384's point about free will. I think we are bound to run into a serious roadblock with your question--though it's a question I share, and for which I can't find a satisfying answer: The why-questions can be pushed all the way back. Why create in the first place? I feel the force of the questions, even though I'm not entirely sure the questions are the right ones.

I didn't say anything about cause, or that God caused it to happen.

In the same way, the mother's putting the plate of cookies on the table did not cause her children to take any.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Y think that It was a test to see if man would obey God,
Fred

Why was a test needed? This was Paradise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The Bible never says fruit tree. Adam and Eve ate of the tree's "fruit," what has been produced by the tree. I'm thinking it was a chocolate chip cookie tree.

Mmmmmm, now that surely would have been tempting... ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I didn't say anything about cause, or that God caused it to happen.

In the same way, the mother's putting the plate of cookies on the table did not cause her children to take any.

Does the mother who puts the plate on the table *know* that the children will take them? No, even though she may have good reason to suspect it. God, however, *knew* what would happen, and God's foreknowledge can't be mistaken. At any rate, I didn't attribute any claim about causation to you; I was just offering an additional point for consideration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

I don't know. For giggles?

Don't forget, though, God's foreknowlegde isn't causally necessitating. His knowing what would happen didn't cause it to happen.

I disagree. This is the age-old problem of man's free will vis-à-vis God's omnipotence and omniscience. Logically, one side or the other has to give. It may be insoluble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

I disagree. This is the age-old problem of man's free will vis-a-vis God's omnipotence and omniscience. Logically, one side or the other has to give. It may be insoluble.

Yeah, I was thinking of Augustine's solution, which argues that knowledge isn't a causally necessitating factor. Knowing the p doesn't make it the case that p. This strikes me as quite plausible, even where the knowledge is infallible. It isn't God's knowing that p that made p happen (since God's infallible foreknowledge extends to future *contingents*).

Quote:

Originally Posted by this8384

1. Actually, Adam & Eve didn't have children until after they had sinned. Maybe they were meant to be the only ones, who knows?

2. Going along...

3. Not sure what you mean by that comment.

4. Worshipping God is honoring Him. If He is so powerful that He created everything, why shouldn't he be praised?

5. That's good that you try to be the best person you can. Unfortunately, not everyone does and that lands us into the world we live in now. People are selfish and evil. They don't care who they hurt or destroy, as long as they get what they want.

Christ didn't die for us simply because we were born into sin; Christ died because we all sin on a daily basis. Even my pastor sins, and he admits it in front of the entire congregation. The importance is acknowledging that you screwed up and trying to not repeat the same mistake(s).

Yes, free will IS exactly that. For example, let's say an attractive woman works with your husband. For him to have an affair with her would be his free will decision; would you believe him if he said, "Well, that's not really my fault. The temptation was put there by God, so too bad for you and our marriage"? I'm going to be presumptuous and say no.

1. So what are you saying. Since they were on a roll of sin, they decided to go all the way and have sex with their own family members?

2. okay...

3. I meant okay... for the sake of argument:rolleyes:

4. Nothing wrong with praising God. Go for it, but it is not what god is seeking. Like I said, he doesn't have that egoic need that we do.

5. You are correct. There are people in the world like that.
I believe you get what you put out there. If you cause misery, you will eventually feel that same misery. That is just MY belief that resonates truth and common sense to me. I have no hard fact and neither does anyone else. You can only go on what you believe for whatever reason you believe it.

I have NO PROBLEM admitting when I screw up and apologizing to God for it. And if he loves me anything like I love my kids, he will forgive me and love me even when I falter.
That is between God and me. Nobody needed to die for it. Tell me this. Are you good and believe in God and Jesus, etc. just to stay out of hell or would you be doing exactly what you are doing now even if you had never heard of God, Jesus, or bible?

No, he would be responsible for his own choices. Let me give you an example.

Your little boy has free will as we all do. That's one of the many functions of the brain. To decipher what's the best or easiest or fun-ist, or safest, or most rewarding choice to go with. Now, say you are god.

You have provided a pass or fail situation. You have explained the consequences.
Pass and your reward is a glorious experience beyond description.
Fail and your punishment will be never ending agony, pain, and darkness.

You've told little Johnny not to eat the cookies on the table. Now, he has his free will but his flesh is weak and he gives in to the temptation EVEN though he knew the consequences.

Now, you set up the consequences so you have to follow through.
So, you send your little boy to hell. But hey, HE did it to HIMSELF so there. He was warned.

Would you ever set up consequences like this for your child? Of course not, the stakes are too high. And I don't believe a loving God would do this to his children anymore than you or I would. Something as enormous as eternity hinging on something as shaky as
Free will doesn't make sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoulaLC

Here are a few that show studies have been done since the 1990's....enough interest has been shown on the topic that many studies have been done and, while some have found them to be conclusive, others have not and feel further study should be done. This is just a small sampling from the US alone:

Can Prayer Heal?

Howstuffworks

Researchers Look at Prayer and Healing

Praying for the sick â€“ can science prove it helps?

DoulaLC, Have you read all my replies to this question? Every case cited has been shown to be in error. I simply can't keep refuting every instance found on the internet. If you do your due diligence, truly examine every case you cite, you will find they are filled with flaws. I know because I've done it. If, after examining thoroughly every case you cite, you then truly believe you have a solid case, I will be willing, one final time, to reply.

What is apparent is that, in their zeal to prove the issue, all proponents skip or omit important facts. This is understandable, but it's not scientific evidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Yeah, I was thinking of Augustine's solution, which argues that knowledge isn't a causally necessitating factor. Knowing the p doesn't make it the case that p. This strikes me as quite plausible, even where the knowledge is infallible. It isn't God's knowing that p that made p happen (since God's infallible foreknowledge extends to future *contingents*).

It is not knowledge alone. The difficulty comes into play when God is described both as all-knowing AND all-powerful (in the sense that he is the creator). Being the creator and all-knowing, God knows what his creation will do - even before he creates his creation. Can God's creation act against what God has foreknown? If so, God is changeable and therefore not perfect (not God). And, knowing what his creation will do (sin, say, and go to hell) why would God create his creation in the first place? Now the problem of all-loving comes into play. It's a conundrum that no one has ever explained logically.

I think the fundamental problem is time. As creatures, we think of time as linear. To God, time must be non-linear. If time is non-linear, cause and effect goes out the window. If cause and effect goes out the window, our logic (and reason) fails. Another way of saying this is that, to God, there is no time. Augustine, as far as I know, may have been the first to posit God outside time. But he doesn't seem to have followed it to its logical conclusion.

The answer found in the Book of Job may be the only answer, which is really, to humans steeped in rationality, a non-answer.

I trust I have thoroughly muddled the question.

Quote:

disagrees: What is p

cozyk, why the reddie? I didn't say anything factually incorrect (read then rules).

"p" is just a variable, standing in for whatever you want it to. Sheesh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

To God, time must be non-linear.

I've always been told--and believe--God is not caught in time, is not bound by it, is outside of it. For God, like for my cats, it is always Now.

Athos,
I think you may be right that the problem can not be solved by we mortals.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Athos,
I think you may be right that the problem can not be solved by we mortals.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I suspect you're right, my friend. I tried to give you an "agree' but it wouldn't let me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

DoulaLC, Have you read all my replies to this question? Every case cited has been shown to be in error. I simply can't keep refuting every instance found on the internet. If you do your due diligence, truly examine every case you cite, you will find they are filled with flaws. I know because I've done it. If, after examining thoroughly every case you cite, you then truly believe you have a solid case, I will be willing, one final time, to reply.

What is apparent is that, in their zeal to prove the issue, all proponents skip or omit important facts. This is understandable, but it's not scientific evidence.

Yes, I have read your replies... :) Please read through each article... they will state that some studies have not found a connection. I am in agreement with you that some studies have shown there to be no connection. I never said they didn't. You had said that studies in the 1990's had found this to be true... I agree, that is the conclusion those studies came to.

I was stating, and have shown, that there have been studies since that time and that, while some have also come to that conclusion, some of those conducting such research are not wholly convinced and that further studying takes place.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all... just simply stating that enough people believe in the possibility, so that possibility continues to be studied... in other words, to many people, it is not a done deal even if it is to others.

I'm sorry, I just didn't understand what you were trying to say.

"It isn't God's knowing that p that made p happen"