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Originally Posted by Tj3

I share that assumption with historical precedent.

It is well to remember, however, that from earliest days the majority of Christian interpreters followed the Jewish tradition in referring the passage to the coming of Israel's Messiah. It seems clear to these interpreters that the longing all nations have in common must be their yearning for the Deliverer, whether or not they realize the nature of their desire or the identity of its true fulfillment in the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Source: The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press)

I would suggest that the onus is on you to come up with a feasible alternate interpretation.

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The onus is on me huh ? Then let me quote from the Bible Encyclopedia at Desire of all nations (WebBible Encyclopedia) - ChristianAnswers.Net. And I quote:
"Desire of all nations."
(Hag. 2: 7), usually interpreted as a title of the Messiah.
The Revised Version, however, more correctly renders 'the desirable things of all nations', i.e. the choicest treaures of the Gentiles shall be consecrated to the Lord.
End quote.
Notice, it says it is "usually INTERPRETED as a messianic title, not that it actually refers to a title of the Messiah. Furthermore it says it is more correctly rendered in the Revised Version of the bible as "desirable things" ( not thing, singular, as in a single person ), referring to, not the Messiah, but the nations, the Gentiles, more specifically, their treaures. I have provided a christian site that refutes the traditional Christian view. I haven't actually searched for what Orthodox Jews interpret this phrase to be, but I will be on it shortly. I stick by what I said in my earlier answer to you; you merely assume because of SOME interpretations, that the phrase is a title of the Messiah. According to the Bible Encyclopedia it is referring to the treasures of the Gentiles, not a Jewish Messiah.

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Originally Posted by nigel5

2 billiion christians! Thats a 1/3 of the planet!

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So what ? So 1/3 of the globe believe the bible. That means there are even more, 4 billion, who don't believe the bible. Furthermore, numbers doesn't make truth. The whole world (millions of people) used to erroneously believe the world was flat. Just because they all believed it didn't make it the truth. And don't tell me that in the first century there was not wars & rumors of wars, & pestilences, & famine, & earthquakes, & false christs, & persecutions. The generation living in the first century saw all the signs mentioned by Jesus. They also witnessed the one major sign that allegedly heralded the imminent return of Jesus... the Roman siege & destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. under Titus. Yes, indeed, Jesus meant that generation of his day would see all these things be fulfilled (Matt. 24.). He meant to the high priest (Mark 14: 62), I will return in the clouds within your lifetime.He meant to the disciples he would come again in the first century before they could go over all the cities of Israel with the gospel (Matt. 10: 23). Yes, indeed, Paul, Peter, & John believed he would come again in their lifetime. Wake up man ! Come out of your dark ages of ignorance & superstition. Jesus is not coming at any time ever. He is dead & gone.

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Originally Posted by deist

...Wake up man ! Come out of your dark ages of ignorance & superstition. Jesus is not coming at any time ever. He is dead & gone.

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I know this is the Christian thread,but Jesus (alaihi salaam) did not die, he was taken up to Heaven and is still alive,he will descend during the end times and establish the truth.
Deist, even if you do not believe,when this event happens and if you are alive then you may believe me.
Then you will realise the term "faith" better,know that all of us have to be always prepared for our own deaths even if Jesus(alaihi salaam)descends during our time or not.
Those who are in this world during his(alaihi salaam) descent are very fortunate to be able to see with their own eyes the belief held all their lives.

Dear friend,
The word shall be preached to all the corners of the earth... then shall the end come.


GET THIS!

GOD IS THE ONE WHO SETS THE TIME, THE PLACE THE HOUR, AND THE AGE.


All we do is watch for the signs. The main ones being the antichrist and the mark of the beast... yes and am betting u'll say that's already happened... yeah right! The great tribulation? The re-birth of the nation of israel in 1948? The sighning of the seven year peace treaty with the anti-christ? The world split into 10 kingdoms? One ruler the antichrist and the false prophet? The bowls of wrath and the dying of a 1/3 of the earth? The falling out of the saints and persecution?The darkening of the sky? The apearance of the 3 prophets? The ganging up of all nations against israel? The rebuilding of the temple? The abomination of desolution in the temple? The list is practically endless!"This generation" is still not here my friend! Sheeesh!

And yes numbers don't justify being on the right... so what do you mean to say? 4 billion pple are Aethists? NO! 2 billion are christians! But not all will go to heaven too... Only God knows that. Yes, pple believed the earth was flat back then! EVEN JOB WAS BEEN ASKED QUESTIONS BY GOD AND HE Couldn't ANSWER THEM! You didn't see God giving him an answer book did you?

My point is: No prophets, disciple, men, angels or even the messiah In THE BIBLE gave a SPECIFIC TIME WHEN HE WOULD come. You said it yourself, people have always "THOUGHT" he was coming but...


He didn't!

What you believe in... is what you believe, But you have no right to say 1/3 of the planet is ignorant and superstitious! Mind you these pple are teachers, proffessors,doctors,scientists,lawyers,students and the like. The brightest minds of the 20th and 19th century have been christian... so don't for one second call others ignorant and superstitious... am sure you have family members too.. bet you're not thinking about them being part of that number huh?


"brother shall turn against brother and father against sons"

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Originally Posted by nigel5

Dear friend,
The word shall be preached to all the corners of the earth.......then shall the end come.


GET THIS!

GOD IS THE ONE WHO SETS THE TIME, THE PLACE THE HOUR, AND THE AGE.


All we do is watch for the signs. The main ones being the antichrist and the mark of the beast....yes and am betting u'll say that's already happened.....yeah right! The great tribulation? The re-birth of the nation of israel in 1948? The sighning of the seven year peace treaty with the anti-christ? The world split into 10 kingdoms? One ruler the antichrist and the false prophet? the bowls of wrath and the dying of a 1/3 of the earth? The falling out of the saints and persecution?The darkening of the sky? The apearance of the 3 prophets? The ganging up of all nations against israel? The rebuilding of the temple? The abomination of desolution in the temple? The list is practically endless!"This generation" is still not here my friend!! Sheeesh!

And yes numbers don't justify being on the right.......so what do you mean to say? 4 billion pple are Aethists? NO! 2 billion are christians! but not all will go to heaven too...Only God knows that. Yes, pple believed the earth was flat back then! EVEN JOB WAS BEEN ASKED QUESTIONS BY GOD AND HE COULDNT ANSWER THEM! You didn't see God giving him an answer book did you?

My point is: No prophets, disciple, men, angels or even the messiah In THE BIBLE gave a SPECIFIC TIME WHEN HE WOULD come. You said it yourself, people have always "THOUGHT" he was coming but..........................


he didn't!

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Nowhere did I say that four billion people are atheists. I said four billion didn't believe the bible. I'm one of those four billion & I'm not an atheist, I'm a Deist. Among those four billion are Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, Wiccans, Pagans, Deists,Hindus,Atheists, Agnostics, Pantheists, & etc. Every generation since Jesus uttered the words, "this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled", thought they were the generation referred to. It is no different today, & it will be no different in the next generation if christianity is not extinct by then. Every generation has seen what they thought were the signs Jesus mentioned, yet Jesus didn't return then, & he is not going to return now or at any time in the future. The Christians thought at the time that Nero was the Antichrist, later they thought the Papacy was the Antichrist, then it was Hitler or Mussolini, later it was Reagan, then Clinton. Christians thought the social security number was the mark of the Beast, then it was the universal product code, now it's the dermal microchip. In the 1970s a false rumor was spread by fundamentalist Christians that there was a giant supercomputer in Luxembourg nick named the Beast that would play a role in events leading to the second coming. The Old Testament's alleged prophecies of the rebirth of Israel had no reference to May 14, 1948. The rebirth of Israel occurred in the return from Babylonian captivity under Cyrus the great. As I said, every generation since Jesus' time thought they were seeing the signs, & every generation will continue to do so as long as there are Christians.

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Originally Posted by nigel5

What you believe in...is what you believe, But you have no right to say 1/3 of the planet is ignorant and superstitious! Mind you these pple are teachers, proffessors,doctors,scientists,lawyers,students and the like. The brightest minds of the 20th and 19th century have been christian...so don't for one second call others ignorant and superstitious....am sure you have family members too..bet you're not thinking about them being part of that number huh?


"brother shall turn against brother and father against sons"

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There are plenty of intelligent Christians in the world, so what ? I doubt that the intelligent ones are premillennial dispensational fundamentalists, as you seem to to be. Take the founding fathers of the United States. Most of them were not Christian, most were Deist, Mason, or Universal Unitarian. If you need proof of that see article 11 of the treaty of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams himself & ratified by Congress in 1797. Article 11 states that the government of the Unites States is in NO WAY founded on the christian religion. Yet far right wing fundamentalist reconstructionists have tried to change history itself, by saying the US is founded upon Christian principles. The founding fathers intended for the US to be a secular nation where there was freedom of religion, with no one religion representing the US to the world.

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Originally Posted by nigel5

What you believe in...is what you believe, But you have no right to say 1/3 of the planet is ignorant and superstitious! Mind you these pple are teachers, proffessors,doctors,scientists,lawyers,students and the like. The brightest minds of the 20th and 19th century have been christian...so don't for one second call others ignorant and superstitious....am sure you have family members too..bet you're not thinking about them being part of that number huh?


"brother shall turn against brother and father against sons"

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It's quite a well documented fact that the more education you receive, the less likely you are to be religious.

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

It's quite a well documented fact that the more education you recieve, the less likely you are to be religious.

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Are we to assume by your answer that being educated puts you at a higher thinking or reasoning level than the Creator (God)? ALso based off this we can assume you (more educated people) know better than say people back in biblical times of what they witnessed first hand and/or experienced and recorded?

Faith and belief again is not conventional and not everything can be put in little boxes and discussed as "black and white" There are, believe it or not, things that you just need to trust and believe. I know trust is a difficult thing for many and many don't even trust their parents, loved ones, etc so why trust God or the Bible or religion. I get all that.

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

I know this is the Christian thread,but Jesus (alaihi salaam) did not die, he was taken upto Heaven and is still alive,he will descend during the end times and establish the truth.
Deist, even if you do not believe,when this event happens and if you are alive then you may believe me.

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I think religion is about controlling the masses so that they have blind faith in leadership but if Jesus descends from the heavens on throne made of clouds or something like that I think that would be enough to convince me. That being said its not going to happen and if I'm wrong may any being, god, powerful force, angel, devil or ghost strike me down where I sit... hmm still here I must be right.

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Originally Posted by michealb

I think religion is about controlling the masses so that they have blind faith in leadership but if Jesus descends from the heavens on throne made of clouds or something like that I think that would be enough to convince me. That being said its not going to happen and if I'm wrong may any being, god, powerful force, angel, devil or ghost strike me down where I sit....hmm still here I must be right.

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I would be very cautious to put God, Jesus, etc to the test... wouldn't you want to believe in Jesus and potentially be wrong in the end than not ever believe at all and then find out you were wrong!

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

I would be very cautious to put God, Jesus, etc to the test...wouldn't you want to believe in Jesus and potentially be wrong in the end than not ever believe at all and then find out you were wrong!

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We're not going to find out we're wrong. The sad thing is you won't find out if you are wrong because you'll be dead in your grave, & you won't see Jesus come again ever. If you lived to be a thousand you'd still not live to see it. It's never going to happen. Jesus is as dead as they come, & he's dust now. And if there is life after death, which I admit is possible, when you get there you'll find out there that Jesus was not the Christ after all. There is no Messiah. We need no redemption, there is no original sin to be saved from.

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Originally Posted by deist

We're not going to find out we're wrong. The sad thing is you won't find out if you are wrong because you'll be dead in your grave, & you won't see Jesus come again ever. If you lived to be a thousand you'd still not live to see it. It's never going to happen. Jesus is as dead as they come, & he's dust now. And if there is life after death, which I admit is possible, when you get there you'll find out there that Jesus was not the Christ after all. There is no Messiah. We need no redemption, there is no original sin to be saved from.

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OK

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

I would be very cautious to put God, Jesus, etc to the test...wouldn't you want to believe in Jesus and potentially be wrong in the end than not ever believe at all and then find out you were wrong!

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What about all the other religions we would be upsetting further by following your God? Safer to believe none (correctly)and (should the fairytale come true) jump on the correct bandwagon at the end whilst the real (don't take me seriously - seriously) God mames all the followers of the "False" Gods.:D

Now, tell me the flaw in my logic.

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Originally Posted by StuMegu

What about all the other religions we would be upsetting further by following your God? Safer to believe none (correctly)and (should the fairytale come true) jump on the correct bandwagon at the end whilst the real (don't take me seriously - seriously) God mames all the followers of the "False" Gods.:D

Now, tell me the flaw in my logic.

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The problem as I see it is... that you want your cake and eat it too... you want live life by your rules but when the end comes you are then willing to "conceed" to God to save yourself... sounds pretty selfish

You don't get it do you - did you see the bit about "don't take me seriously" - I put that there for a reason!

Just as you send all other religious people to hell if you're right, all the other religions will (probably - can't really speak for all of them) send you to hell for believing in the wrong God.

Are you ready for that outcome?

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Originally Posted by StuMegu

What about all the other religions we would be upsetting further by following your God? Safer to believe none (correctly)and (should the fairytale come true) jump on the correct bandwagon at the end whilst the real (don't take me seriously - seriously) God mames all the followers of the "False" Gods.:D

Now, tell me the flaw in my logic.

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Purely from a believers point of view, I think when you want to believe at the last minute/second it maybe too late.:)

Like when your last breathe escapes your lips.
When you are dying and you realise the truth.

For me the example that comes to mind is the Pharaoh of Mose's time.
He had it all, kingship and loyal subjects at his beck and call,power,money and fame,
On his last breathe as he drowned he said he believed, but it was too late for him.

Please see my post #216

I saw that after I posted... :)
And from their view I may belong in Hell as well.:)

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Originally Posted by StuMegu

You don't get it do you - did you see the bit about "don't take me seriously" - I put that there for a reason!!

Just as you send all other religious people to hell if you're right, all the other religions will (probably - can't really speak for all of them) send you to hell for believing in the wrong God.

Are you ready for that outcome?

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The short answer to your question is YES.

The problem with your statement is that religions and/or people don't send anyone to Hell only God does! So Yes I am completely confident that I will be judged accordingly by God at the end times. Are you?