Ask Me Help Desk - Who are the evil ones who say Lord, Lord?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

You might as well get some sleep. I think we'll be waiting till the 2nd, or maybe the 3rd or 4th coming of Christ before we get an answer (this is an inside joke folks).

You mean until you give me an answer to the questions that I asked you? :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Maybe your opinions. I am going to scripture to see what it says. God's word directed the Apostles, it is what Jesus used to resolve theologicial questions, and it is the source that I used to determine what sound doctrine is.

You're going to Scripture, sure, but you keep misunderstanding it. And you *still* haven't replied in a rigorous and thorough way to the objections I posted ages ago. Or, rather, the couple of times you did I showed that you were *still* mistaken.

Where did Jesus use a faulty understanding of Eph.2--or even a good understanding of Eph.2--to solve a theological question? When do you think the books of the NT were written?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Good night Joe.
Sleep well.
You have done well.
Fred

Thanks, God Bless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Akoue,
Points well made.
Tom Smith (Tj3) proves again that he has a closed mind which is made up full of bogus Church history.
Fred

Just like your denomination's Cardinal John Henry Newman who says the same thing.

Fred, I truly pray that some day you'll drop the bitterness and perhaps we can have a real discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

I don't "ignore". But when I want to know what sound doctrine is, I go to the source.

The historical truth really gets under your skin, doesn't it Fred?

Where are you getting this historical truth? Can you offer any documentary support for you claim?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

You're going to Scripture, sure, but you keep misunderstanding it. And you *still* haven't replied in a rigorous and thorough way to the objections I posted ages ago. Or, rather, the couple of times you did I showed that you were *still* mistaken.

I know - only you are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. It may disturb you to know that you are not the standard of all truth, and I have responded to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

I don't "ignore". But when I want to know what sound doctrine is, I go to the source.

The historical truth really gets under your skin, doesn't it Fred?

Where are you getting this historical truth? Can you offer any documentary support for your claim?

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I'm not making any sense? I thought you were using this scripture to prove that unbelievers have the Holy Spirit before they are saved. I am not following the point of why you used this if that was not why.

Where do you get they were never saved? How could they have never been saved when it says they were

Where does it say they were saved?

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and fell away?

It says they were enlightened and received the gift of the Holy Spirit. They fell away from this enlightenment. And yes, from salvation which they were approaching but they never possessed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

You're going to Scripture, sure, but you keep misunderstanding it. And you *still* haven't replied in a rigorous and thorough way to the objections I posted ages ago. Or, rather, the couple of times you did I showed that you were *still* mistaken.

I know - only you are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. It may disturb you to know that you are not the standard of all truth, and I have responded to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Where are you getting this historical truth? Can you offer any documentary support for your claim?

Sigh! I have many many times, and Fred knows it. But that is a topic for a different thread, don't you think?

N0help4u,
I believe the De Maria is saying that only those who are saved are really saved, not when some person says they are.
This bogus theology about one saved always saved and the other one called self assures saved is very much in error.
Only God knows who is saved or will be.
Judas may have been on the road to salvation but I believe he blew that when he betrayed Jesus.
But I might me wrong.
ONLY God knows for sure.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Where does it say they were saved?

So let me get this straight. You were claiming this as an example of the unsaved having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit based upon your own assumptions that they are unsaved.

If that is not the case, then please establish your claim.

Arcura
I agree with what you are saying about once saved always saved is not correct because there are many professing Christians and so forth but I am not following De Marie's point on the Holy Spirit, the unsaved and this scripture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

N0help4u,
I believe the De Maria is saying that only those who are saved are really saved, not when some person says they are.

So you reject the Biblical teaching that says that we have assurance of salvation.

De Maria.
I just read your post to NoHelp4U.
I made a post to her concerning what you said.
I hope I god that right.
If not, please correct me.
Fred

I believe the verse IS talking about believers that backslid.
I understand that many are not saved as we assume but the verse specifically is talking about ENLIGHTENED and falling away. The Bible does say that believers CAN fall away.

I do not believe it is referring to unsaved that believe they are saved but are wrong and if it does how and why would they actually be enlightened yet unsaved?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Sigh! I have many many times, and Fred knows it. But that is a topic for a different thread, don't you think?

Oh, I don't know. We are talking about understanding Scripture. Some of us find it useful in understanding Scripture to consider how thoughtful people have understood it. And, in this case, since your reading cuts directly against the grain of the understanding-and practice--of the earliest Christians... Yeah, I see the relevance. (And come with Newman if you like. I'd enjoy that greatly.--Do you have anything other than Newman?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Where are you getting this historical truth? Can you offer any documentary support for you claim?

Gosh! I thought he'd shown that to everyone. It's a joke. Cardinal Newman calls the Christian religion the "New Religion" in Rome and from that statement, TJ builds a whole new history of Christianity.

Obviously, Cardinal Newman was speaking of "new" religion in relation to the "old" pagan religion which Christianity replaced.

When he produces it again, and he's very proud of it, so he will. Go to entire document, and read one paragraph prior to the one snippet TJ will provide and the whole thing will be made clear.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I believe the verse IS talking about believers that backslid.
I understand that many are not saved as we assume but the verse specifically is talking about ENLIGHTENED and falling away. The Bible does say that believers CAN fall away.

I do not believe it is referring to unsaved that believe they are saved but are wrong and if it does how and why would they actually be enlightened yet unsaved?

I think that you are right. I think that De Maria is trying to read into it what she wants it to say and that is why her explanation is so confusing.

If that is the strongest argument that she has for her belief that the unsaved can be indwelled by the Holy Spirit, then I'd say that her argument is in serious trouble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

De Maria.
I just read your post to NoHelp4U.
I made a post to her concerning what you said.
I hope I god that right.
If not, please correct me.
Fred

You are correct Fred.

Again I ask:

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I believe the verse IS talking about believers that backslid.
I understand that many are not saved as we assume but the verse specifically is talking about ENLIGHTENED and falling away. The Bible does say that believers CAN fall away.

I do not believe it is referring to unsaved that believe they are saved but are wrong and if it does how and why would they actually be enlightened yet unsaved?

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I believe the verse IS talking about believers that backslid.
I understand that many are not saved as we assume but the verse specifically is talking about ENLIGHTENED and falling away. The Bible does say that believers CAN fall away.

I do not believe it is referring to unsaved that believe they are saved but are wrong and if it does how and why would they actually be enlightened yet unsaved?

Soooo, this verse is about people that went to heaven?

Tj3,
NO!!
I did not say that.
We are assured of salvation if we do as God says do and He accepts that and saves us.
Only God knows FOR SURE who is or is not saved.
That I believe from Holy Scripture.
You believe as you interpret Scripture which is your right.
But that does not mean that I agree with you on that subject because I do not.
Many times I have agreed with you and many times I have not.
I believe that as time moves on that will continue to be the case.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Gosh! I thought he'd shown that to everyone. Its a joke. Cardinal Newman calls the Christian religion the "New Religion" in Rome and from that statement, TJ builds a whole new history of Christianity.

Obviously, Cardinal Newman was speaking of "new" religion in relation to the "old" pagan religion which Christianity replaced.

Except that he says that Constantine did it (not Jesus) and that paganism was brought into the "new religion" when it was created. Jesus did not do that either.

Also Constantine was in the 4th century, not the 1st, so your argument that it refers to Christianity falls flat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Gosh! I thought he'd shown that to everyone. Its a joke. Cardinal Newman calls the Christian religion the "New Religion" in Rome and from that statement, TJ builds a whole new history of Christianity.

Obviously, Cardinal Newman was speaking of "new" religion in relation to the "old" pagan religion which Christianity replaced.

When he produces it again, and he's very proud of it, so he will. Go to entire document, and read one paragraph prior to the one snippet TJ will provide and the whole thing will be made clear.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I suspected as much. I've seen some of his posts on this, and he's got nothing. But, interestingly, the question I originally posed was about the Church pre-325. So the fanciful stuff shouldn't matter. We can just look at the Apostolic Fathers... if he's read them. He doesn't seem comfortable departing from the script, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Except that he says that Constantine did it (not Jesus) and that paganism was brought into the "new religion" when it was created. Jesus did not do that either.

Also Constantine was in the 4th century, not the 1st, so your argument that it refers to Christianity falls flat.

Bring it up again TJ, please. I really would like for Akoue to see it. Thanks. Its quite pitiful.

The Bible has many verses about believers having confidence of their salvation and boldly proclaiming it so I believe we can know and have assurance we are saved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
NO!!
I did not say that.
We are assured of salvation if we do as God says do and He accepts that and saves us.

But Fred, Romans 3:23 says that no one has done what He says.

Quote:

Only God knows FOR SURE who is or is not saved.

Then you think that scripture is wrong?

2 Tim 1:8-10
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
NKJV

Titus 3:4-8
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

I suspected as much. I've seen some of his posts on this, and he's got nothing. But, interestingly, the question I originally posed was about the Church pre-325. So the fanciful stuff shouldn't matter. We can just look at the Apostolic Fathers... if he's read them. He doesn't seem comfortable departing from the script, though.

Heh heh heh, maybe you operate from a script, but I don't.

Fred does - he copies and pastes many answers from a site called the Catholic Apologists Cheatsheet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

The Bible has many verses about believers having confidence of their salvation and boldly proclaiming it so I believe we can know and have assurance we are saved.

But now you're ignoring the question. Does this verse describe people who went to heaven?

Heb 6 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If not, what were they "saved" from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Heh heh heh, maybe you operate from a script, but I don't.

Fred does - he copies and pastes many answers from a site called the Catholic Apologists Cheatsheet.

Awesome website. I use it myself.

Great minds think alike Fred!!

Tj3,
Newman was saying that Constantine OUTLAWED paganism and made Christianity the empire's official religion.
Nothing else.
You are twisting what Newman said to fit what you want to believe, not what was actually said in the context of the history of that time.
You have a bad habit of twisting things people say and Scripture to fit what you want to believe. It is your trademark.
By your works and actions we and God knows you well.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

2 Tim 1:8-10
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
NKJV

I think that verse covers the works thing perfectly because it says not according to our works but according to our purpose.
As I was saying before we can do all the good works and not be saved BUT are we where God wants us doing what he wants us to do [purpose!]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Except that he says that Constantine did it (not Jesus) and that paganism was brought into the "new religion" when it was created. Jesus did not do that either.

Also Constantine was in the 4th century, not the 1st, so your argument that it refers to Christianity falls flat.

Let's just stick with the first and second centuries. Now, how do you respond to my earlier post regarding the beliefs and practices of the early Church?

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Newman was saying that Constantine OUTLAWED paganism and made Christianity the empire's official religion.

He specifically names a number of items from the pagan Roman religion brought into the church by Constantine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Let's just stick with the first and second centuries. Now, how do you respond to my earlier post regarding the beliefs and practices of the early Church?

As I said, I am sticking to what scripture says. If you want to discuss other sources, then start a different thread, or find those who wish to discuss that particular topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Heh heh heh, maybe you operate from a script, but I don't.

Fred does - he copies and pastes many answers from a site called the Catholic Apologists Cheatsheet.

Cool. At least he gets stuff right. Maybe you should find yourself a good source to crib from, because you don't fare very well left unattended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Cool. At least he gets stuff right. Maybe you should find yourself a good source to crib from, because you don't fare very well left unattended.

Akoue,

Having seen your handling of the word of God, as I said before, your criticism carries no weight at all.

The so called Catholic Cheat sheet that I have used and will continue to use does a great job of telling the truth about various biblical subjects.
For some reason Tj3 seem to be very upset with me providing the truth via that sheet.
He keeps bringing it up as though I was committing a sin.
He likes to quote from various sources in attempt to verify what he is saying but for some reason if I quote from other sources it is a bad thing.
LOL
Is he being narrow minded or what?
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

The so called Catholic Cheat sheet that I have used and will continue to use does a great job of telling the truth about various biblical subjects.

So far I have refuted everything that you have ever posted from it. Indeed, whoever created it did not even appear to have read many of his own references.

Quote:

For some reason Th3 seem to be very uoset with me providing the truth via that sheet.
He keeps bringing it up as though I was committing a sin.

I find it to be unethical to copy and paste from what someone else has done without given credit.