 |
Maybe in your mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Ah yes, the tried and true ad hominems, best used when you have no means of rebuttal.Quote:
My goodness. Do you have that much trouble understanding English? Obviously it was not used by Christians in the West. Therefore it was used by Christians in the East.
I must be hitting right on target - more ad hominems.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
Most of what I read about Roman Catholicism is written by Romans Catholics and has the endorsement of the Roman church.
Most of what I read regarding sound doctrine is in the Bible. If these sources are anti-Catholic, well, it would be good for you to consider the implications.
Obviously you've lost interest in intelligent debate. Bye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I have interest in an intelligent debate. Do you know where I can find one?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I never did have interest in ad hominem arguments.
De Maria and ScottRC,
I agree that you both are correct.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
You might want to post it some time so we can explain it to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I doubt it. Although you deny being Protestant, your doctrines are based on Protestant premises which are unsound since they are really a rebellion against the Church of God.Quote:
Most of what I read regarding sound doctrine is in the Bible.
Your doctrines are not based on the Bible as you claim. But on Protestant Traditions which you claim not to follow. But your adherence to Sola Scriptura belies that claim.Quote:
If these sources are anti-Catholic, well, it would be good for you to consider the implications.
Sincerely,
De Maria
*yawn*Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Come on... you've got to give up on this... it works the first time, but then you've got to actually start discussing the thread topics.
I'm still wondering if you can provide some examples of your "bible-only" Christians ---- pre-Constantine... I doubt you would post something so foolish without being able to support this with facts, right?
History should support your contention that "the changes occurred in 325AD when Constantine amalgamated the pagan Roman religion into the church"... you should be able to provide ample quotes from the early Church that show how Christians have a theology similar to yours... and then show examples of the corruption after Catholicism became pagan.
Looking forward to reading your examples, heck, even ONE example... instead of the usual dodge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The Church is a House of God, and He is the Pillar and the Ground Truth.
1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
To determine righteousness, results of 3 if thy brother shall trespass against thee Matthew 18:15-16 One should always try to resolve this alone first. The of witness, followed last with the church.
Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The Importance of Scriptures
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I would suggest you use Our Father's Truth if the church is His House.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
As a child of God we enter the House of God to give honor, praise , and glory to Our Father. Our Father is the Spirit of Truth to all that is written.
Deu 31:15 And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle.
Jude 1:24-25 Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Believe
Scott,Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
When you or Maria decide to start discussing, and not either posting ad hominems or other abuse, and stop trying to tell everyone else that your denomination is God's only denomination, and start actually addressing the points raised respectfully, then we can have a real discussion - something that I think would be quite interesting.
The other thing is that when you start asking me for things that I provided to your dozens of times, I find it hard to believe that you are serious, but rather it comes across that you are just trying to waste my time.
Tom
I got a good laugh out of that!Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
First, I see no indication that you have listened enough to know what I believe - you have misrepresented my beliefs time and again. And the arrogance in your last line speaks for itself.Quote:
I doubt it. Although you deny being Protestant, your doctrines are based on Protestant premises which are unsound since they are really a rebellion against the Church of God.
Tom
SottRC,
I see the Tj3 can not produce that which he claims he can, instead he cries "abuse" for your noticing that.
Fred
Sndbay,Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Your post seems to support my argument against Scripture alone.
If it doesn't, please show where and how any of those references in your message support Scripture alone.
De Maria,
I would also like to see that.
Fred
Fred, I have produced everything that I claimed, and I did so without the need to abuse or use ad hominems, You cannot say the same, or you would still be on AW.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tj3,
Where is that abuse you claim?
I merely stated my fear for your soul.
It is why through my love of Jesus and for his followers like you that I have been praying for years and will continue to do so.
I want to see you in heaven.
It the name of Jesus I love you and want to see to saved.
No abuse done or intended.
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Your abuse is obvious to anyone who cares. It was obvious to the owners of AW.
Tj3,
Since when is the love of Jesus and for those who follow him abuse?
Fred
Et al:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Regarding Sacred Scripture
I think De Maria may have covered this several times in this and other threads, repeating it surly couldn't hurt.
The Council of Laodicea (circa 365) is first synod or council to have reportedly discussed the books in the Scripture. The following is the Old Testament books discussed: 1, Genesis of the world; 2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.
The following were the New Testament books discussed: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon. CHURCH FATHERS: Synod of Laodicea (4th Century)
While these books may or may not have been canonized at the Council of Laodicea, the Council provides historical proof that many of the books considered sacred by St. Jerome were considered sacred by that date. Furthermore, it is apparent that they had been used for some time.
Later, the Scriptures were canonized by Pope Innocent in 405; intact as we know it today and were re-canonized by Trent, Session 4, 1546. The fourth session of the Council of Trent listed the books as those contained in the Latin Vulgate. And just to remove any ambiguity it was flatly stated, “But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.” The Vulgate is one and the same translation by St. Jerome for Pope Damasus in 374, proclaimed by St. Augustine (circa 397) and approved by Pope Innocent.
Prior to that St Jerome, we see that the early Church Fathers used an Old Testament containing the deuterocanonical books, which were considered sacred:
Didache: Wisdom
St. Clement: Judith, Wisdom, Esther
St. Polycarp: Tobit,
St. Irenaeus: Baruch, Wisdom
Clement of Alex: Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1Mach, 2Mach, Daniel
St. Hippolytus: Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1Mach, 2Mach, Daniel
Tertullian: Judith, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1Mach, 2Mach, Daniel
Origen: Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1Mach, 2Mach, Daniel, Esther
St. Cyprian: Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1Mach, 2Mach, Daniel
As I'm sure you're aware, the argument that the Roman Catholic Church “changed” the Scriptural Cannon in 1546 simply isn't true.
I had actually written this for another thread, but it seems it is now closed. I hadn't participated in that thread, so it couldn't have been caused by me – I can get argumentative. This is the third or fourth thread closed for the same reason in the last few weeks. I suspension that this is a tactic used to close any discussion regarding topics in which Catholics participate. Am I imagining things?
JoeT
JoeT777
Thanks for posting that here as has been posted on the Christian board before.
It is good for the truth to be reposted for those who had not the opportunity to see it previously.
It is also of value for those who want to remember it well.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Christ is the Foundation and upon it was the fellowship built by the apostles and prophets, with Christ as the corner stone. This is what the House of God feeds the children of God. The fellowship in Christ, the Foundation.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
1 Corinthains 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ
Eph 2:19- 20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, [but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
DeMaria, Who Did Christ follow?
ReinteratedQuote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, [which are able] to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and [is]profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
DeMaria, Without discrediting the facts that are told to us in these scriptures, that are refer as the Truth of Our Father, as the inspiration that Our Father gives, what else can be put above?
Your Choice
Are you saying that Christ did not have the authority to build His Church upon the foundation of Peter?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
This says that the Apostles are the foundation. That would tend to confirm that Jesus could establish His Church upon the foundation of Peter.Quote:
Eph 2:19- 20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, [but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
I don't know, who?Quote:
DeMaria, Who Did Christ follow?
Sincerely,
De Maria
This is Catholic teaching. I see nowhere the terminology Scripture alone or only Scripture or anything that would indicate that the Church does not also have authority given by Christ nor that Traditions are no longer in force.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
"All" does not translate to "only". And the entire verse is set in the context of teaching. So obviously St. Paul is not there teaching Scripture alone.Quote:
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and [is]profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Are you asking me, what is needed in order to prove Sola Scriptura from these verses? If so, I would have to see the context of the entire message.Quote:
DeMaria, Without discrediting the facts that are told to us in these scriptures, that are refer as the Truth of Our Father, as the inspiration that Our Father gives, what else can be put above?
Lets look at 2 Tim 1:
11 Wherein I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For which cause I also suffer these things: but I am not ashamed. For I know whom I have believed, and I am certain that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him, against that day. 13 Hold the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me in faith, and in the love which is in Christ Jesus.
Note how St. Paul is teaching Oral Tradition. He is a preacher, an apostle and a teacher. And he instructs Timothy to Hold the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me .
So, in the first Chapter, St. Paul is teaching St. Timothy to teach.
Lets look at chapter 2:
1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace which is in Christ Jesus: 2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.
Still teaching St. Timothy to teach.
Chapter 3 you've provided, but let me emphasize the teaching aspect again:
16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.
Note how he is preparing the man of God to teach others.
And finally chapter 4:
1 I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: 2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. 3 For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: 4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. 5 But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.
That's pretty self explanatory. Although you guys want to take one little verse, pretend that "all" means "only" and then discard the rest of the second letter of Timothy to force the Scriptures to teach Sola Scriptura, a true understanding of that letter, in context, is about Magisterium. The Teaching Church. St. Paul a Bishopand member of the Church Magisterium is teaching a new Bishop what are His duties as Bishop. And his duty is to teach.
That is true. I choose to believe Scripture and obey my Church leaders:Quote:
Your Choice
Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christ is the foundation, no other ! 1 Corinthains 3:11 For other foundation can [no man] lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Fellowcitzens with the saints, just like all that are believers in Christ, who are baptized with Christ.
Those believers baptized walk in Christ. ... Perfect Faith!
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;...
The apostles and prophets walked in Christ because they were believers that were baptized in Christ.
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
Confirming in whom all the building fitly framed grow together... unto a holy temple in Christ. There is no doubting allowed in who and where we place our belief in. Nor is there question where Peter put his own faith.
Eph 2:21 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
In whom... confirming again what is being built together in Christ by the encouragement of God through the Spirit.. The Spirit of Truth
DeMaria, You can choice to put Peter as the foundation of your church.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
My choice in mind and heart is Christ! Christ never build the Perfect Faith, or Our Father's House on Peter.. NEVER NEVER.. The Spirit of Truth is built on Christ!
Our Father's Word is telling us scripture is able to make us wise unto salvation. WOW! My choice is follow this source of salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, [which are able] to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
My choice is Truth in what scripture offers ..
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and [is]profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
I asked you a question point blank: DeMaria, Without discrediting the facts that are told to us in these scriptures. As Truth of Our Father, as the inspiration that Our Father gives, what else can be put above scripture? what is your choice above Truth?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Paul is telling us to hold form of sound words which he spoke in Faith, and the love in Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
2 Timothy 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Paul knew of his previous following of his fathers traditions.. Must I refer those scripture?
Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Paul speaking of us being strong in the Grace which is Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus ChristQuote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
THis is confirming scripture as the profitable for man to teach, and is the perfect man that does teach it.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Free Will, we all have it, in mind and heart your choice will be known by Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
My choice is to be a child of God, and walk into the House of God to give Praise, Honor and Glory to "ONE" ... My Rock is Christ, and I do as Peter did, we are baptized and believe In Christ.
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
The Rock
Being used, and being canonical or sacred are much different things. This is the problem throughout this discussion, and that is that there is no discernment regarding such key differences, nor the sources which are used. You will note that I also provided a Roman catholic source which showed that the additional books were added by your denomination at the council of Trent. But of course you won't consider that input because it does not agree with you! I use sources from all sides in order to get an unbalanced view.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
sndbay
I go by what the bible clearly says.
Jesus was/is the founder on the foundation of the person He named Peter for his faith was like a rock.
Peace ad kindness,
Fred
I never saw proof that “Trent added books,” If you did show proof, I'm afraid I was unimpressed, so much so, I don't recall it. But let me quote Trent one more time. No matter how the list of books in Session 4 of the Council of Trent is read, it is followed by the following statement. It removes any AMBIGUITY that the Scriptures referred to are those of St. Jerome's Vulgate:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
“But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.”
The Vulgate is the official Bible. Any English translation should conform to the intent of the Latin Vulgate.
JoeT
Judging before you see it then - that is called "prejudice".Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“St. Jerome distinguished between canonical books and ecclesiastical books. The latter he judged were circulated by the Church as good spiritual reading but were not recognized as authoritative Scripture. The situation remained unclear in the ensuing centuries...For example, John of Damascus, Gregory the Great, Walafrid, Nicolas of Lyra and Tostado continued to doubt the canonicity of the deuterocanonical books. According to Catholic doctrine, the proximate criterion of the biblical canon is the infallible decision of the Church. This decision was not given until rather late in the history of the Church at the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent definitively settled the matter of the Old Testament Canon. That this had not been done previously is apparent from the uncertainty that persisted up to the time of Trent”
(Source: The New Catholic Encyclopedia, The Canon)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps of your religion. But not of mine.Quote:
The Vulgate is the official Bible. Any English translation should conform to the intent of the Latin Vulgate.
JoeT777
Weather anyone says of believes otherwise the official bible of the Catholic Church Is the official verson of the bible as originally promulgated by The Church via the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
In other words God directed it to happen as it did.
Everyone who uses a bible uses a Catholic book whether they want to believe it or not.
Some versions are missing some of the official books, so there are Not the complete Bible.
That is sad for there is much information, wisdom, and spirituality in those books called the Apcrypha.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Discernment isn't prejudice. In the sense that I have a prejudice for truth and logic, I agree with your statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
So, what? St. Jerome couldn't have Canonized Scripture in and of his own authority. Pope Damasus Canonized Scripture and in 374. And again by Pope Innocent in 405Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
No, it's not mine to possess, but it is God's Kingdom on earth, and yes I'm a member.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
JoeT
I agree fully.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
JoeT
Then you are finally agreeing that the apochrypha is not in the Bible!Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I was not aware that they had revoked their decision at Trent - when did this happen?
Tj3,
You said "not in my religion".
That is very interesting Joe and I and other Catholics are Christians who believe what was posted so...
Are you now saying that you are not a Christian?
Or worse yet, saying the 2 billion Catholics are not Christians?
Just wondering,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
The pope himself called your denomination a religion by itself, so are saying that he erred? It is on vatican.va.
Do I believe that 2 billion Catholic are all Christians - No - I don't think ANYONE is a Christian because they belong to any church or denomination be they catholic, Lutheran, baptist, Orthodox or anything else. They are a Christian because they have received salvation through faith in the all sufficiency of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross alone for their salvation. I have done so therefore am a Christian. I do believe that there are Christians in your denomination also.
Tj3,
Thank you for your personal explanation.
I believe that most if not all Catholics are Christians and saved by the grace of God,
I also believe that most other Christian denominations have a great many members who are saved by the frace of God.
I pray that they all are for I don't want any of them go to eternal hell.
The pope calls the Catholic Church Christian.
I have never heard of or seen any pope say otherwise.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Fred, The judgement remains in Christ hands, but I find the Spirit of Truth in scripture says, Our Father loves all His children. Those who believe and are baptized walk in Christ, and must believe in perfect faith. For in Christ we hold stedfast in love of The Spiritual Truth in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Eph 4:7-8 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
For The Perfect Faith in us, and the ministry
Eph 4:12 For the [perfecting of the saints,] for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
This is Till When? Scripture says until all come unity of the knowledge of the Son, to come a perfect man in Christ.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 thr 24 goes on to say until no more doctrines thrown around this way and that. But rather teaching the truth in love, and grow up into Christ in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ. Put on Christ the Rock , Walk in the Perfect Faith
Eph 4:26 thr 31 goes on to say neither give place to the devil. I, choice to view this as a warning, of protection and love.
Who and where does all this come from? To us on Earth from God.
Eph 4:9-10 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.)
Who does Christ give to?
Eph 4:11 And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Then go back up and read Eph 4:12-13.. It's all here
I pray the readers can share the perfect faith that Christ brought us all.
Good Day to You
This so called "New" Catholic Encyclopedia must be another of your anti-Catholic authorities pretending to be Catholic. Because St. Jerome himself defended the Deuterocanon as inspired LATER IN HIS LIFE. Of course, since your intent here is to malign the Catholic Church, you conveniently left that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
That is called prejudice with malicious intent.
Besides the fact that St. Jerome included the Deuterocanon in his Latin Vulgate, here's more evidence that St. Jerome accepted the judgement of the Church in regards to the Deuterocanon:
Others point to St. Jerome's “rejection” of deuterocanonical material. While Jerome was originally suspicious of the “extra” Old Testament books, which he only knew in Greek, he fully accepted the judgment of the Church on the matter, as shown in a letter written in 402 A.D.:
What sin have I committed if I follow the judgment of the churches? . . . I was not relating my own personal views [when I wrote the objections of the Jews to the longer form of Daniel in my introduction], but rather the remarks that [the Jews] are wont to make against us [Christians who accept the longer form of Daniel], (Against Rufinius, 11:33, emphasis added).[11]
CUF.org :: Catholics United for the Faith
Which makes me wonder your ethics TJ? Since you obviously knew that saintjoan was misrepresenting herself and you were helping her deceive the people of this forum. What does your Sola Scriptura morality say about lying and giving false witness?
Sincerely,
De Maria
This speaks loudly - without even checking out anything about the source, you say that this encyclopedia, put out years ago by a Catholic University, is anti-Catholic.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
This is the problem - you attack anything or anybody who dares to disagree with you, no matter what the facts are.
BTW, if you have an issue with saintjoan, deal with saintjoan. I am not responsible for any other users on this site. Or maybe you cannot deal with what saintjoan is saying, so you are trying to avoid her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Have either of you read Ephesians 4.. It was posted in #397Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Eph 4:7-8 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9-10 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For Christ Has Told You
The judgement remains in Christ hands, The Spirit of Truth in scripture says, Our Father loves all His children. Those who believe and are baptized walk in Christ, and must believe in perfect faith. For in Christ we hold stedfast in love of The Spiritual Truth in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Eph 4:12 For the [perfecting of the saints,] for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
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