Right.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Now that we agree that it is the blood that saves us, is that one baptism water (making the Holy Spirit optional), or the baptism of the Holy Spirit (making water optional)?
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Right.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Now that we agree that it is the blood that saves us, is that one baptism water (making the Holy Spirit optional), or the baptism of the Holy Spirit (making water optional)?
Faith SAVES us = an answered call to salvation = Faith in ChristQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
2 Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
or is there delusion in wanting to be filthy rags?
2 Th 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
HIS Body and Blood set us free from sin, baptism is within of spirit
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
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Matthew 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
( one Faith, one Baptism, One Lord )
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Establish the law of Faith:
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:26)
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, (Eph 3:17)
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (Romans 3:27)
Oh brother... That's all. Oh brother...
What I was saying id that it looked like twisting Scripture to me.
The reason being is that the passage does not clearly say the water is flesh.
To me it says that man is born of flesh though woman.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
You need to read it without forcing it to bend to your denomination's teachings. What is the topic? Being born twice, once of a woman and then being born again when you are saved. So this speaks of two birth. You will not find baptism spoken of even once in this part of scripture.
So with that in mind that it speaks of births and not of baptism, let's look at it again:
John 3:4
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
NKJV
Notice, Nicodemus is talking about two births - one of a woman and the subsequent re-birth when we are saved.
So Jesus says:
John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
NKJV
Born of water (birth #1 of a woman) and born of Spirit (birth #2 when we are saved).
Fred - are you aware of the term of what happens when a woman goes into labour - her water breaks - do you know why that term is used? You might want to look it up, or ask a woman.
Then Jesus says as a matter of explanation, using Jewish parallelism:
John 3:6
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
NKJV
water = flesh
Spirit = Spirit
Baptism is not mentioned. By bring that into it, you are altering (or to use your word - "twisting") what it actually says.
We can verify that it has nothing to do with baptism by looking where else being born again is mention, which is here:
1 Peter 1:22-25
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because
"All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever."
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
NKJV
Note that the re-birth of salvation comes from the word of God, not baptism.
Now if you think that the topic here is baptism and not the being born again, would you please show us where baptism is mention in this discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus?
Sorry Tom, do not see it that way
I see it that flesh is born of flesh and to be born again requires water.
Fred
Not many people are in the same position as the thief was.The majority of us have a lot of time in front of us and we could take take both ways if we like.The way of God , or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
What about all the others?Did they not work for the gospel or did they just believe? And what is believing?Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Believing is obeying!
I keep telling ''make it to the kingdom of Heaven'' because Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
If the Israelites obeyed God they would all have made it much sooner.
Again , obeying is the key word!
Proven that baptism is to be born again of the spiritQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Salvation is to raise from the dead as Christ raised. So the resurrection of the dead was sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption. By Adam came death, by Christ came the resurrection of death. (Reference 1 Cr 15)
1 Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Which takes us back to: Baptism and HIS hand of fire
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in HIS hand, and He will thoroughly purge HIS floor, and gather HIS wheat into the garner; but HE will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Right sndbay.
adam7gur,
We are almost saying the same thing. The difference is that when we believe (cling to, adhere to, rely on)in Jesus, walking in the spirit and newness of life, we don't "have to do"anything. We will "love to do" as the Father does all he does in love and not because he has to.
For example, my wife never asks me to do anything around the house so there is nothing I have to do. However, I do many things around the house because I love her and the things I do show or prove I love her. If I didn't do them, then it would be doubtful I really loved her. It also is true, I never ask her to do anything either, so when things get done, I know it's because she loves me. She doesn't "have to" do them. Each knows what is done makes the others life more pleasant, and shows love, respect and honor. What a miserable marriage it would be if either of us thought we had to do something to keep the relationship going.
Exactly Jeff!Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
All I say is that all those things that I do for my wife are ''works'', aren't they?When I say ''have to'' I don't mean that my wife holds a whip and forces me to , but my heart that is filled with love for her makes me do it.
I see what you mean and I totally put my name under these words.
P.S. Sorry for not being able to give you a credit here,but as you say ''they'' won't let me!
Interesting one. I never saw anyone try to use this to support belief in baptismal regeneration before, other than Mormons. Note that this is not an endorsement of baptism for the dead - it is simply acknowledging that some people do engage in the practice. Of course if you are trying to argue that this is the basis for a doctrine of baptismal regeneration, then perhaps we ought to have a second thread on whather you belief that those who have already died can be saved after death through substitutionary baptism of the living for the dead. I truly hope that you do not believe in that.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Jesus' baptism in the Holy Spirit was clearly, according to John, the important baptism.Quote:
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Which takes us back to: Baptism and HIS hand of fire
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in HIS hand, and He will thoroughly purge HIS floor, and gather HIS wheat into the garner; but HE will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Not true - every single saint in the OT was in the same position as the thief.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
How were they saved? Are you saying that there were two ways to be saved? That Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not necessary?
No Adam is NOT saying that.
Why do you ask such silly questions?
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Rather than interrupting and telling me and others what we can or cannot say, why don't you let us discuss these points without your disruption?
Yj3.
I do NOT tell you what you can say and never did.
You can say what you please, but that does not mean that I will always agree with what you say.
Fred
Back to the topic...
Not true - every single saint in the OT was in the same position as the thief.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
How were they saved? Are you saying that there were two ways to be saved? That Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not necessary?
Interesting one. I never saw anyone try to use this to support belief in baptismal regeneration before, other than Mormons. Note that this is not an endorsement of baptism for the dead - it is simply acknowledging that some people do engage in the practice. Of course if you are trying to argue that this is the basis for a doctrine of baptismal regeneration, then perhaps we ought to have a second thread on whather you belief that those who have already died can be saved after death through substitutionary baptism of the living for the dead. I truly hope that you do not believe in that.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Jesus' baptism in the Holy Spirit was clearly, according to John, the important baptism.Quote:
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Which takes us back to: Baptism and HIS hand of fire
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in HIS hand, and He will thoroughly purge HIS floor, and gather HIS wheat into the garner; but HE will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
The knowledge of each religious following in which you have studied has given reason for our differences. I have offered scripture being the WORD of GOD. My heart does not reflect HIS WORD to religions of demonations. You have posted three different times that the scripture in which was offered as GOD's WORD, gives you reason to think of Mormons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
All the religious demonations have flaws of teaching by man. We can see this in many ways and it does include baptism.
Clear the mind of such teaching, to allow God to reveal truth.
2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost
Follow the Word of God...Hear HIS VOICE
Tom, Have you been baptized, if so, when and how?
Just checking in . See you all are still arguing. Fred even lost his "peace and kindness" salutation. Never thought I'd see that. Go back to the drawing board and admit that with just about any given writing in the bible has truth based on your own opinion.
You can argue till the cows come home, but that is all you really have. Your opinion.
I disagree with this because, I believe in God, and HIS power of creation. It is only your own personal opinion when you follow your own pride. God tells us to deny ourselves and follow Christ. Following your own personal opinion verse what God can reveal to you, clearly is in darkness as the scripture reference.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
All souls belong to God, and we were created for HIS pleasure.
I could offer scripture which is the WORD of GOD to back this up. Just let me know if you would like me to do that.
~In Christ
p.s. Fred will always remain in peace and kindness, because it is in HIS heart of love.
Remember the woman Jesus said go now and sin no more. Faith in HIM, and the law of oath by God's promise would SAVE them. It is true they were filthy rags under the law, yet the promise of priesthood in righteousness then was changed when Christ was anointed as our Saviour by HIS blood. The better way! Some might have been baptized by John, we don't know for sure who was and wasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Jesus sacrifice on the cross changed the priesthood, and the vail was taken down. The Faith in that ONE begotten Son of God restored what Adam (Adam means man as well) had caused by the curse of sin.
The law of Faith is to be established, and we should acknowledge salvation is the law of Faith .. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.
And you have your opinion of what God is saying, and Fred has his, and TJ has his. Which one is Gods?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Who said anything about following your own pride? Pride equals ego and that's NOT what we should follow. The ego is selfish, guarded, greedy, and shallow. Go deeper than the ego. Go to the "I am". I am" my heart, soul, spirit, center of my essence. That is where God speaks.
What good would offering scripture do? Maybe God in his infinite wisdom could re-write his words so that this bickering about "what he REALLY meant by that" would not be an issue. Offering scripture just muddies the water.
I know about Fred. He IS a kind soul and I believe he has a huge heart filled with love and good intentions. I was just rattling his chain. Goes to show that even Fred is human when it comes to protecting his belief , when others disagree.
Again, are you saying that there was one way to be saved in the OT under the priesthood, and a different way to be saved in the NT?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
If so, what specifically are you saying took away sins in the OT?
That is because it is usually the Mormons who try to say that baptism for the dead is a valid means of saving people. Scripture does not say that anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
If you mean by water, yes, twice, the dates do not matter. If your question was aiming at something else, please advise.Quote:
Tom, Have you been baptized, if so, when and how?
Ultimately, what I did, or you did, or anyone else did is of no consequence in this discussion because we do not base sound doctrine on the actions and experiences of men.
God gave His opinion in the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
Jesus tells us God's will, which is much more then an opinion, and Jesus followed HIS Father's Will. This is what I hear and believe:
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
This is Faith in God
2 Sa 22:21 The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.
2 Sa 22:33 God is my strength and power: and he maketh my way perfect.
2 Sa 22:36 Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy gentleness hath made me great.
Salvation was written of in (Genesis 49:18) According to the promise of God (Isa 25:8-9 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Christ would be that completeness of that promise, The Everlasting WORD.
The OT was a promise given in faith according to the doctrine of life, with love, showing patience, follow the Will of God, and lving under the law.
What SAVED them, the PROMISE, because I trust they were delivered up unto the LORD.
Note: before the beginning of the world:
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
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Follow
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousnessThat the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
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2 Timothy 2:11-13 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Note: To whom, that is a follower of Christ:2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
Tom, Why don't you offer your heart of belief? Is it different then what I have said? Tell me your answer.
Okay - we agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
So, I am still not entirely clear on your position - were they saved by obedience to the law, the animal sacrifices, or by the blood shed on the cross? In other words, something had to pay the price for sin - what was it?Quote:
The OT was a promise given in faith according to the doctrine of life, with love, showing patience, follow the Will of God, and lving under the law.
What SAVED them, the PROMISE, because I trust they were delivered up unto the LORD.
I thought it was you that did not follow faith by denominations?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The scriptures offered was the WORD of GOD... Read it as God's WORDS to you.
1 Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
1 Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?
1 Cr 15:36 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
My question help me to discern better the measure of enlightenment that God might offer accordingly. I was baptized by my parents at birth, but I was brought to a period in life when that baptism was better recognized as a dedication of faith. I struggled most with the faith of baptism, when I gave birth to my first son who was premature. My heart searched for answers as to whether he had to be baptized immediately or risk that open door as the church instructed. My life has been pushed by the church rules, yet it was my love in Christ that brought me to follow HIM. Seven years ago I found my love in Christ brought much more assurance in following HIM, hearing HIM, and resting in HIM. I was baptized in a salt water pool giving my heart of faith only to HIM. BY my own life given to HIM and lived in HIM, I know there is a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Also I recognize that those searching and unsettled questions are God working in us.
I would agree with that, because no one other then ourselves will be accountable to our choices which lead our ways. And it is God who reveals unto whom He chooses in according of HIS Will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
By Faith they were SAVED... Belief in the promise of God... Salvation... Just as we today would be under the law until it brings us unto Christ (the schoolmaster), they were under the law. Their law worked in animal sacrifices, but our's today is Chist blood. (the promised is here) If they live in accordance to God's will of righteousness, then they would be delivered up unto the LORD ..Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Niether OT or NT is based on works saving.. both are based on faith... yet we also know faith without works is dead. Today without Christ, and our righteousness of works that come from faith in HIM, we are dead. (James 2:6)
(2 Timothy 3:10-11) offers an example.. faith brings salvation
But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
There are problems with this view:Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
First, faith by itself will not save. Blood must be shed to pay the price for sins:
Heb 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
NKJV
And second, the blood of animals will not work:
Heb 10:4
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
NKJV
If this were true, then Christ died in vain, since we could have simply continued the animals sacrifices combined with faith in God. This position minimalizes Christ sacrifice and indeed the necessity of the gospel.
Neither OT or NT is based on works saving.. both are based on faith... yet we also know faith without works is dead. Today without Christ, and our righteousness of works that come from faith in HIM, we are dead. (James 2:6)
Faith is an essential part of salvation, but faith alone without the shedding of the blood on the cross will not save. There must be atonement for sin, and that is by shedding of blood, Christ's blood alone.Quote:
(2 Timothy 3:10-11) offers an example.. faith brings salvation
How were those in the OT saved? By the only possible way to be saved. Faith in the Messiah. No, they had not seen Him yet, but their faith in the Messiah to come is what caused the blood on the cross to be applied to their sins. The timeline is no problem for God - He is outside of time.
We have evidence of this truth in scripture. How was Moses saved?
Heb 11:23-27
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's command. 24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
NKJV
And even the reference in 2 Timothy that you referred to tells us how the OT speaks of the gospel of Christ. There is no other way to be saved and never has been. If water baptism were essential now for salvation, it would have been essential then.
I don't. It looks like your last message is just a repeat of what you posted before. Just posting the same verses again does not address the issues that I raised previously. If you have any response to the concerns that I raised, I am interested.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Faith is the belief of the Begotten Son of God who came to shed HIS bood and the body that walked this earth as flesh showing the way..Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Then do you agree with me that salvation is only through the shed blood of Christ on the cross, and that there was no other way in the OT times?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Correct the works don't do it, but salvation was a promise from God... needing faith .. They were promised salvation (Genesis 49:18)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Do you agree with me that salvation is only through the shed blood of Christ on the cross, and that there was no other way in the OT times?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
No because if you go back to reference scripture, salvation is = One Lord ONe Faith One BaptismQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
From OT to NT the change is that Christ is confessed the begotten Son of God
The one Faith body and blood Christ (NT)
The one Faith promise Messiah/blood animal (OT)
Tom do you trust God would be good on HIS promise of salvation to those in the OT if they would indeed loving, patience, and live by the doctrine of Life. Would he deliver them up to Christ as He promised?
Again faith without works is dead! (OT) and (NT)
But the question keeps coming up - which baptism - the Holy Spirit or Water?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
So what atoned for their sins in the OT if not the blood that Christ shed on the cross?Quote:
From OT to NT the change is that Christ is confessed the begotten Son of God
The one Faith body and blood Christ (NT)
The one Faith promise Messiah/blood animal (OT)
I trust God, but I am not sure that we agree regarding what the OT saints were trusting God for, or how they were saved. That is why I am asking you questions to find out what your beliefs are.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
BTW, I am not sure that we agree also on what "Faith without works is dead" means.
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