Ask Me Help Desk - Purgatory - just how long is it?

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Opinions vary obviously, but again we come back to the question of how to decide who is right? :)

The Bible. We find that there are only 12 apostles and no more (other than jesus who is described as "The Apostle"). Thus there is no apostolic succession.

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But you are not an ORDAINED priest= a presbyter, from the Greek πρεσβύτερος, presbýteros, which is conferred by the cheirotonia, ("Laying-on of Hands"), or Holy Orders... something quite different than what you are asserting.

The Bible records that the ordained priersthood was done away with. I would say that being a priest with a ministry gioven by God is better than a manmade priesthood of a denomination in any case.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

The Bible. We find that there are only 12 apostles and no more (other than jesus who is described as "The Apostle"). Thus there is no apostolic succession.

Obviously that is your opinion... and it was not shared by anyone who was directly tought by the Apostles.

Yours is a SERIOUS misinterpretation of Clement and Ignatius, since both of them recognized the three-fold ministry of bishop-presbyter-deacon.

"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. ....Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. .....Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one Cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons." (St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Philadelphians 3:2-4:1)

"You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." (Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans 8:1-2)

And who was the bishop for these Smyrneans? It was Polycarp! And Polycarp is the one who gives us the key to understanding our dispute here. For, as we know, Ignatius speaks of Polycarp several times as "the bishop of Smyrna." And Polycarp never objects to this, or acts as if he does not possess monarchial authority in Smyrna. Yet, when Polycarp writes to the Philippians, he does not call himself "the bishop," but rather introduces himself saying,

"Polycarp, and the presbyters with him, to the Church of God sojourning at Philippi: Mercy to you, and peace from God Almighty, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior, be multiplied."

Polycarp was tought DIRECTLY by the Apostle John.

Seems the Apostles don't agree with your interpretation of Scripture.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Obviously that is your opinion... and it was not shared by anyone who was directly tought by the Apostles.

Scripture states specifically how many Apostles there have and will be. It is not opinion (other than perhaps God's and I hope you would not challenge that as "only God's opinion")

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Yours is a SERIOUS misinterpretation of Clement and Ignatius, since both of them recognized the three-fold ministry of bishop-presbyter-deacon.

I note that you immediately try to refute scripture with opinions of men.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Obviously that is your opinion... and it was not shared by anyone who was directly tought by the Apostles.

Scripture states specifically how many Apostles there have been and will be. It is not opinion (other than perhaps God's and I hope you would not challenge that as "only God's opinion")

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Yours is a SERIOUS misinterpretation of Clement and Ignatius, since both of them recognized the three-fold ministry of bishop-presbyter-deacon.

I note that you immediately try to refute scripture with opinions of men - ironic!

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I note that you immediately try to refute scripture with opinions of men - ironic!

Ironic is that you continually give your opinions to show how others opinions don't matter...

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Ironic is that you continually give your opinions to show how others opinions don't matter.....

So you downplay scripture as opinions, but the private interpretations of your denomination as mandatory. Hmmm

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Originally Posted by Tj3

So you downplay scripture as opinions, but the private interpretations of your denomination as mandatory. hmmm

Exactly what I have been picking up from De Marie and what is being said in these posts on Mary, purgatory and sola scriptura. It is ironic.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

So you downplay scripture as opinions, but the private interpretations of your denomination as mandatory. hmmm

You can try to twist my words any way you'd like... I'm confident that most who read this will notice that I never once said that "the private interpretations of your denomination as mandatory"... it's simply just a lie on your part.

Please remember, I'm just explaining what I believe... I don't have problem at all with what you believe and don't judge your salvation.

From the hateful and anti-catholic rhetoric on the site you've put in your signature, I doubt you extend me the same level of love and respect.

To each his/her own. God alone will judge.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

You can try to twist my words any way you'd like... I'm confident that most who read this will notice that I never once said that "the private interpretations of your denomination as mandatory"... it's simply just a lie on your part.

Abuse does not help. It is not a lie - as you can see I am not the only one getting that impression. In another thread you call those who disagree with you denomination's view of the Bible as "stupid".

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From the hateful and anti-catholic rhetoric on the site you've put in your signature, I doubt you extend me the same level of love and respect.

I put "Discernment Resources" and "Last Days Bible Conference" in my signature, and that is hateful and "anti-catholic"?

Which do you find hateful and anti-catholic, discernment or a conference on the Bible?

Perhaps lowering the level of abuse at those who disagree with you would reduce the impression that you are insisting that we accept your denomination's poisition.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It is not a lie - as you can see I am not the only one getting that impression.

Well, it's certainly not the truth... please show me where I said Catholic interpretations are mandatory for you or any non-Catholic to believe or retract the statement. Simple really.

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Perhaps lowering the level of abuse at those who disagree with you would reduce the impression that you are insisting that we accept your denomination's poisition.

I think you are just fine where you are... and I certainly would not refer to your faith as a "cult" or any of the other garbage on the "discern" site:

"Roman Catholicism is not truly Christian, but is in fact, the largest and oldest "Christian" cult in the world."

"The blasphemous dogmas of this official Catholic catechism reveal the blindness and wickedness of those "evangelicals" who are calling for closer relationships with Romanism."

Abuse? I think this site takes the cake.:cool:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Well, it's certainly not the truth... please show me where I said Catholic interpretations are mandatory for you or any non-Catholic to believe or retract the statement. Simple really.

Your attitude is clear.

- On this thread where I disagreed with your denomination, you said that I and others were stupid.
- On another thread today, you said that Luther, believing in the non-Catholic canon was in heresy.
- On that same thread, you said that to believe what the New Catholic Encyclopedia itself said about the Council of Trent was an error (it disagrees with the official position of your denomination).

These and many other statements make it clear that you are putting forward your denominations's position as the standard of truth, and no matter what documentation we put fiorward, even if it comes from within your denomination, it is wrong.

Now, if you want this percpetion held by myself and others to go away, then start dealing with the facts and the evidence and stop calling us stupid and liars.

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I think you are just fine where you are... and I certainly would not refer to your faith as a "cult" or any of the other garbage on the "discern" site:

"Roman Catholicism is not truly Christian, but is in fact, the largest and oldest "Christian" cult in the world."

"The blasphemous dogmas of this official Catholic catechism reveal the blindness and wickedness of those "evangelicals" who are calling for closer relationships with Romanism."

It is interesting that you chose not to post the link as to where specifically you found this so that the context could be seen - and without noting that this lcomment is NOT found anywhere on my site, but rather on someone else's site.

Now as for how you refer to my faith, I guess that you feel calling us liars and stupid is showing love and respect. Note that your comments go after the person.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

No. That is Luther's teaching. "Sin and sin mightily and grace will abound the more." Of course that is completely against Scripture:

Actually, I was so liking the lifestyle I was in, that I decided not to follow god at that time, I don't know how you got that verse to answer what I did at that time, I wasn't looking for forgiveness, I wanted to continue in my sin, which I did for a further 15 years.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Romans 6 1 What shall we say, then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid.

How many Protestants have I spoken to who claim that ALL their sins, past and present have been forgiven simply because they made a profession of faith. Tons and tons. Sorry, but that is a Protestant teaching. Not Catholic at all.

Actually, we are forgiven for all our sin when we turn from sin (repent) confess our faults to Jesus, the ONLY mediator between man and God
1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
If we believe (the Faith) that Jesus became a curse on that cross, and paid the penalty for our sins, then if we accept that sacrifice,(the free and most precious gift of God to man, the life of His only Son) as our own, then we receive forgiveness of sin, by the grace and mercy of the Father.
If we think that we can pay for our own sin by penance or works, then Jesus death was worthless.
If we confess our sin, then we should believe God when He says that that sin is gone.

1 John 1
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I still sin, we all do, but if we recognize our sin, then it is my advice, to keep short accounts with God.
It is not as if we are confessing to God, all we are doing is agreeing with Him, He already knows we sinned, He is just waiting for us to come into agreement.
He judges the thoughts and intents of the heart, there is nothing hidden, best release it to Him and receive forgiveness.
There is a flip side to this, if we do not believe that Jesus sacrifice was enough, we agree with the devil, and open a door of oppression, guilt and shame that does not belong to us.
Jesus already took that to the cross.
It also opens up the opportunity for the devil to bring the curse on our lives.
God's law cannot be broken, it is eternal, but it is there for our good not for evil.
however, satan takes advantage of the law and if we have broken it, satan ( his name means accuser) goes before God and accuses us.
If we harbour that sin in our hearts, and don't bring it to the feet of Jesus, satan has a legal right to bring the curse of death on our lives, in one form or another.
Look at Job, satan could not touch him without God's word, look at 1 Corinthians 15

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Just hit the Enter button after you've completed an idea. And that way you'll build a better more readable message.

Thanks, I will take your advice on this one.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Yeah. And its all Catholic. Apparently you've received the gift of prophecy but not the gift of interpretation.

In the first dream you were in the CATHOLIC Church praying and you were taken up TO SAFETY.

Actually, it was raining blood and fire on the catholic church and I was taken out of there, then taken back to before the world was formed and I was shown that God has pre-destined me from way back then, as I believe He has for us all.
Rev 8
7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

The first of the judgements of God on the earth.
It is our choice to follow the Holy Spirit and Gods will for our lives or follow the teachings of man.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

In the 2nd dream, the Post which you were clinging to is the Pillar of Truth, the Church. And when you were pulled away, you were standing on the precipice of hell.

Wrong again, I was happy doing my own thing in life, I would try anything, any sin was okay, particularly sexual sin. The shape in the ball was like a coffin, and the cave, the grave.
The underground cavern, was a place of drunkenness and selfish gratification.
The hole and the heat and the flickering of flames on the walls, was definitely the gates of hell, with the devil drawing me down with my own selfish lusts.
When I called out to Jesus, He was right there, He saved me from the sin that was drawing me into Hell.
He that calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved (Rom 10:13)

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Originally Posted by De Maria

In the 3rd dream, you were in the Ark and safe, the Ark has always been a symbol of the Barque of Peter, the Catholic Church. But YOU made a shambles of the Ark, you sunk it and then you drowned..

Wrong again, the ark, according to 1Peter 3

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Here, even Peter says that baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God.
Did you have a good conscience toward god before you were baptized?
It is accepted that baptism is an adult decision to follow Christ.
It also has the symbolism of death, burial and resurrection.
This is the meaning of the dream, the ark, symbolic of baptism, is used to destroy the enemy, sin. Then there was a dying under water, and resurrection, e.g.. "I may as well wake up!"
Romans 6

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Obviously, God is calling you back to the Catholic Church, but Satan is keeping you in his grip.

Repent, go to confession and reconcile yourself to God and His Church

Did you try the spirit? Because that wasn't the Holy Spirit who spoke to you. If you were Baptized Catholic, you need not be baptized again.

I was "baptized?" a catholic, but I put no credibility on it. My brother is God father to a number of children in the catholic faith, yet never goes to church and lives to please himself... [/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Read the Scripture:

Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Everything I do and that I believe, can be found in the bible, without twisting scripture to fit the doctrine.
God's word is as plain as the nose on your face, He doesn't really make it that hard to find Him.
I don't believe that a God that would give His son to die for us, would send us to burn in excruciating pain for centuries to pay for the sin that was too much for Jesus to handle.
what about the thief on the cross, seems he jumped right over purgatory straight into paradise.
What about those that will be still alive when Jesus returns, to be forever with the Lord.
Will they have to say, hang on Jesus, you didn't finish the work you were sent for, I just have to burn for a few centuries, thank you for your loving kindness, then jump into the fire. I think not!

1 Thessalonians 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Have a good weekend, grace and peace to you.

That didn't work right, how do you do the quote to be high lighted, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It is interesting that you chose not to post the link as to where specifically you found this so that the context could be seen.

Where did those quotes come from? I would like to see the context.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It is interesting that you chose not to post the link as to where specifically you found this so that the context could be seen.

It's a site YOU linked to... you need me to show you what's on it? :confused:

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Now as for how you refer to my faith, I guess that you feel calling us liars and stupid is showing love and respect. Note that your comments go after the person.

**YAWN**

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

It's a site YOU linked to... you need me to show you what's on it? :confused:

**YAWN**

Ah, so you lied when you said:

"I think you are just fine where you are.... and I certainly would not refer to your faith as a "cult" or any of the other garbage on the "discern" site:"

This is not on the "discern" site after all, and I did not say it.

Perhaps it is you who should now apologize, and rather than trying to demean your opponents through false accusations and name-calling, deal with the issue!

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

It's a site YOU linked to... you need me to show you what's on it? :confused:

**YAWN**

Nowhere did he ask you to show him what's on it. If I'm understanding him correctly, he was saying that you should have posted the link for those of us who may be checking in from time to time.

The quote above from your post Scott does little to move the discussion forward. It just emotionally charges the discussion. That is not to say that Tj3 might have been more careful in regards to what he linked to.

Rob

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Originally Posted by rhadsen

Nowhere did he ask you to show him what's on it. If I'm understanding him correctly, he was saying that you should have posted the link for those of us who may be checking in from time to time.

Fair enough... I just thought it amusing that I'm supposed to give HIM a quote that he uses in his signature.

1. Go to Discern.ca
2. Click Roman Catholicism
3. Go to the bottom of the page where you will see:
4. Other Links
Various Articles on Catholicism

You'll forgive me if I don't post any more of the hate-speach from that site... this step-by-step will have to be enough.

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The quote above from your post Scott does little to move the discussion forward.

Hence the **YAWN** crack... I hope this will be quite enough of this... and we can get back to Purgatory.

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That is not to say that Tj3 might have been more careful in regards to what he linked to.

Glad you agree.

ScottRC,

I've seen it go both ways. There is a website (RC) where there is supposedly a code of conduct - acceptable usage policy that states no ad hominems and to keep it polite, yet the regulars refer to the Reformers as the Deformers & etc. yet if a Protestant doesn't capitalize the word Catholic, all "you know what" breaks loose. The other posters also deliberately "misinterpret" what the Protestant posters say and the other members pile on. Finally, the home team posters will deliberately ride the line on acceptability, then when the Protestant finally bites back he is censured.

On the other hand, it must be tiring to read a post by a misinformed individual attacking your church with the same tired lines, when all he is doing is parroting something that he's heard. (Which is not to say that I agree with your church's theology.)

So, I can sympathize.

Rob