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Originally Posted by fitnahpolice

Jesus prayed TO God. He did not pray to himself. If we love Jesus, belive in his teachings and have faith in him, we must all do as he did - Worship the One God like Jesus did.

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Jesus Christ was 100% God and 100% man. He told those that He taught to "pray thusly." He was showing by example how to pray to the Father. He, in His manhood, was praying to the Godhead. As H2O comes in three forms i.e. liquid, ice, and steam, so does the Godhead in His fullness, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (three offices, one God). As it is said in the first chapter of Genesis: let "Us" create man in "Our" image. And so He did. A man is a single entity but he comprises body, soul, and spirit... all three units make the single man.

This is a really good conversation but I have to agree with ActionJackson

If salvation is just accepting the Lord in your heart? Why does the scripture talk of the baptism and infilling of the Holy Ghost?

Jesus Christ said to Nicodemus: "Verily, verily, I say unto Thee, Except a man be Born again, He cannot see the kingdom of God", St. John 3:3. I think a lot of people think born again is just accepting him in your heart but there is more of a requirement.

Jesus elaborates some more when in St John 3:5, "Verily, verily, I say unto Thee, Except a man be Born of Water and the Spirit, He cannot enter into the kingdom of God".
Jesus said in St. Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost". By the way, the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is Jesus!

Acts 2:38."Repent and be Baptized every one of you, in the Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of Sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".

St. Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; But he that believeth not shall be damned". This is a plain clear message yet people still go in their own way

Ephesians 4:5, "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism".

I Peter 3:21, "The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us".

I guess it boils down to if people believe in what a man tells them or what Jesus and the apostles told us Salvation requires. I ‘ll stick with Jesus!

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments

It is also written "They profess that they know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient and unto every good work reprobate",

jayb09,
The baptism of the Holy Spirit happens when you convert or accept Jesus.
It is good that one recognizes the command to be baptized. It shows maturity.
People who are born again, plain and simple, will be going to Heaven. There are not two classes of Christians. You either are or are not saved.John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the
kingdom of God."
Baptism is an outward display of an inner conviction(something already there) to identify with Christ - His death and resurrection for us personally.
Belief in Jesus is our salvation-not our righteous acts.

And your question was about salvation-not faith- as the others alluded to.

Yes, faith is not a destination. The destination is the joy.
Faith and joy He works in us throughout.
And I agree. Faith is #1 an action. Not just words.

[QUOTE=jayb09] If salvation is just accepting the Lord in your heart? Why does the scripture talk of the baptism and infilling of the Holy Ghost?

St John 3:5, "Verily, verily, I say unto Thee, Except a man be Born of Water and the Spirit, He cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

Acts 2:38."Repent and be Baptized every one of you, in the Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of Sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".

St. Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; But he that believeth not shall be damned".

I Peter 3:21, "The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us".

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments [QUOTE]


So, according to Jesus in John 3:5, being born of the Water and the Spirit (interesting that "water" comes before "spirit") is necessary prior to entering into the Kingdom.

Then, if we look at the wording of Acts 2:38 in a chronological way, we are to 1) Repent, 2) Be Baptized in Jesus' name 3) then receive the Holy Ghost. Interesting. So, we won't receive the Holy Ghost unless we have first been baptized and we shouldn't be baptized if we haven't first repented of our sins. Wow... you learn something new everyday. All the years I've read the Bible and have read that verse it never struck me like it just did.

Thanks for your post Jayb09. May Christ's hedge of protection surround you, your family, and your community.

Matthew 3:11-12 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, who sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Act 2:1-4- When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Oh, it's fire! And you are Baptized in the Holy Spirit when you received Jesus.

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Originally Posted by Retrotia

Matthew 3:11-12 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, who sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Act 2:1-4- When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Oh, it's fire! and you are Baptized in the Holy Spirit when you received Jesus.

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The practice of being baptized with water did not stop after this verse. Therefore, the baptism with the Holy Ghost and with fire is an addition to the water baptism because we know that Jesus, Himself, continued the practice. The "fire" baptism spoken of in Matthew 3:12 where the "chaff" are burned correlates with the end time cleansing of the world as spoken of in the parable of the wheat and the tares. Read Matthew 13:38-42

At the point in time in which the events of Acts 2:1-4 took place, there were eleven Apostles present. Judas was dead and Paul had not been converted yet. Standing before the eleven Apostles were men from many lands who spoke many different languages. In order for the Apostles to preach the Good News to all of them simultaneously the Holy Ghost gave them the power to speak in a manner that everyone present could understand the Apostles' speech in his own native tongue. This is the point that the Apostles spoke in tongues in the true sense. (There are some who "speak in tongues" today and nobody can understand a word they say). I agree that this could be seen as a baptism of the Holy Ghost but it specifically affected the Apostles who had already been baptized in water by Jesus Christ.

AJ,
I will let someone who has the time explain this to you. This is "our" position. You are certainly entitled to your own beliefs. I see where there are differences concerning denominations & doctrines.
Baptism Not a Requirement for Salvation

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Originally Posted by Retrotia

AJ,
I will let someone who has the time explain this to you. This is "our" position. You are certainly entitled to your own beliefs. I see where there are differences concerning denominations & doctrines.
Baptism Not a Requirement for Salvation

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I can certainly see the point you are trying to make. I also understand that under some historical circumstances that persons were saved that were unable to be baptized by full immersion baptism. The thief on the cross comes to mind. However, I don't believe that it should be taken too lightly. There are a number of Scriptures that point to the importance of baptism.

I wonder what Jesus would say to someone who had the opportunity to be baptized but didn't because he didn't think that it was important enough to go through with it. How many people won't be baptized because they were told that it wasn't necessary for salvation? If I told someone that it wasn't all that important and not necessary for salvation and that someone opted against being baptized based on my choice of words, would I be considered a stumbling block?

Well said AJ! You know when you stated about being the stumbling block because there so many preachers out there who do not know the truth but are telling people that if they just accept Christ in their heart and they will be saved, it reminds me of Lazarus in the rich man. We all know the story but let's look at these few versus in Luke Chapter 16. I am picking up where the rich man has the conversation with Abraham.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I quote all of those scriptures to say this. Once someone has been directed and given the word of truth they are held accountable. I think of the many times I have had conversations with people and how they were never convinced of the truth. But we all have to one day meet God. Those who have been told what the way of truth is, what can they say to God? It can't be Lord you never told me or I never knew because we have had this converstaion.

My second part is this. I can you Retotria and anyone else that God is real. Unless I had tasted of the goodness of the Lord and had not experienced the water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost I might be swayed with what man has told me but now I know too much and I know that God is real because he dwells and abides down on the inside. Glory to be God! God is the same day today yesterday and forever more! His word never changes!

I pray that the Lord open your understanding just as he did for me.

Peace Be





Just as we are having this conversation with Retrotia, she can never go before the Lord and say that she didn't know because we had this conversation.

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Originally Posted by jayb09

Well said AJ!! You know when you stated about being the stumbling block because there so many preachers out there who do not know the truth but are telling people that if they just accept Christ in their heart and they will be saved, it reminds me of Lazarus in the rich man. We all know the story but let's look at these few versus in Luke Chapter 16. I am picking up where the rich man has the conversation with Abraham.
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Baptism, in a sense, is similar to the taking of communion in that we are not to take communion unworthily. Our heart is to be in the right place or we should not take communion. Similarly, we aren't to be baptized unless we have first repented of our sins. If we have not repented of our sins, we should not be baptized. Therefore, there is more to baptism than a simple act of obedience or an "outward" show of some sort. If we only do it to "show" the world that we are being obedient, then how are we any better than the Pharisees who loved to make an outward "show" of tithing? Jesus said something to the effect that having your cup clean on the outside means nothing if it is dirty on the inside.

When you read the scriptures you MUST first see who the scriptures were written to. They are for us all but they are WRITTEN to different people. In Acts... who was Peter talking to? The Jews. Yes, THEY needed to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. They needed to recognize WHO Christ was and be identified with HIM. He was just crucified, rejected and they were JEWS! That was huge to be baptized and to be identified with him. THIS is NOT the GOSPEL. The Apostle Paul gives the Gospel to the Church and it has NOTHING to to with baptisim. Period. For heaven sakes, Paul even mentions that he baptized certain families but couldn't remember if he did others. If baptism is required, once again, we would have to rely on another human being to do it for us. In other words, you can't just get saved with you and the Lord Jesus! His work would NOT be enough and it would require another human and another act other than his death on the cross. Another insult to my savior who finished the work. FINISHED THE WORK! This is an age old debate and I am certainly not going to change anyone's mind, I am sure. But I did feel the need to say that. By the way, this should probably be a new thread.

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Originally Posted by Tessy777

When you read the scriptures you MUST first see who the scriptures were written to. They are for us all but they are WRITTEN to different people. In Acts...who was Peter talking to? The Jews. Yes, THEY needed to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. They needed to recognize WHO Christ was and be identified with HIM. He was just crucified, rejected and they were JEWS! That was huge to be baptized and to be identified with him. THIS is NOT the GOSPEL. The Apostle Paul gives the Gospel to the Church and it has NOTHING to to with baptisim. Period. For heaven sakes, Paul even mentions that he baptized certain families but couldn't remember if he did others. If baptism is required, once again, we would have to rely on another human being to do it for us. In other words, you can't just get saved with you and the Lord Jesus! His work would NOT be enough and it would require another human and another act other than his death on the cross. Another insult to my savior who finished the work. FINISHED THE WORK! This is an age old debate and I am certainly not going to change anyones mind, I am sure. But I did feel the need to say that. By the way, this should probably be a new thread.

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Well the verse does say that we should repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (no other name) and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. If, as you say, it is not necessary to be baptized and that being baptized is an insult to your saviour, then should we all get out our black markers and erase all the verses pointing towards baptism? Are there any other Scriptural instructions that you believe God included in His Word erroneously? Peter and the Apostles baptized many... were they insulting Jesus Christ by so doing? How about John the Baptist... was he an insult to your saviour?

Secondly, the men present in Acts chapter 2 were "men of Israel." They were Israelites. The word "Jew" is representative of one of the 12 tribes of Israel that being the tribe of Judah. All men of Judah are Israelites but not all Israelites are of the tribe of Judah. Paul identified himself as an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin... not Judah.

Since this is a thread concerning whether Christ is God or not I think the discussion is appropriate. Since we are to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ then by doing so, we clearly see Him as God.

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Originally Posted by Tessy777

When you read the scriptures you MUST first see who the scriptures were written to. They are for us all but they are WRITTEN to different people. In Acts...who was Peter talking to? The Jews. Yes, THEY needed to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. They needed to recognize WHO Christ was and be identified with HIM. He was just crucified, rejected and they were JEWS! That was huge to be baptized and to be identified with him. THIS is NOT the GOSPEL. The Apostle Paul gives the Gospel to the Church and it has NOTHING to to with baptisim. Period. For heaven sakes, Paul even mentions that he baptized certain families but couldn't remember if he did others. If baptism is required, once again, we would have to rely on another human being to do it for us. In other words, you can't just get saved with you and the Lord Jesus! His work would NOT be enough and it would require another human and another act other than his death on the cross. Another insult to my savior who finished the work. FINISHED THE WORK! This is an age old debate and I am certainly not going to change anyones mind, I am sure. But I did feel the need to say that. By the way, this should probably be a new thread.

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God used and uses people to do His work. He used Moses to free his people from bondage. He used the Apostles to spread the good news of salvation. He used people to write down and compile his word in to a book for people to read and understand. So too, He uses people to baptize. To me this seems rather consistent, and does not negate the finished work of Christ.

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Originally Posted by jayb09

My second part is this. I can you Retotria and anyone else that God is real. Unless I had tasted of the goodness of the Lord and had not experienced the water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost I might be swayed with what man has told me but now I know to much and I know that God is real because he dwells and abides down on the inside. Glory to be God!! God is the same day today yesterday and forever more!! His word never changes!

I pray that the Lord open your understanding just as he did for me.
Peace Be
Just as we are having this conversation with Retrotia, she can never go before the Lord and say that she didn't know because we had this conversation.

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I did not say that getting baptized wasn't important. I said you were mature for thinking it is.
I said it wasn't a requirement for salvation. This is important to me because my husband and 2 daughters are saved-but not baptized (yet) So I hope you see why I like to get my facts straight.
About me, do not worry. I have been baptized, twice. But there was a year between being saved and baptism.
Now you see another's opinion also. So you can put more or less emphasis on what you choose.
God Loves You. Take care.

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Originally Posted by Retrotia

I did not say that getting baptized wasn't important. I said you were mature for thinking it is.
I said it wasn't a requirement for salvation. This is important to me bc my husband and 2 daughters are saved-but not baptized (yet) So I hope u see why I like to get my facts straight.
About me, do not worry. I have been baptized, twice. But there was a year between being saved and baptism.
Now you see another's opinion also. So you can put more or less emphasis on what you choose.
God Loves You. Take care.

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I can see the dilemma you are in. You do see the importance of baptism but since your family has not yet been baptized yet, you feel at least some concern. You concern, alone, shows that you understand the importance of baptism. I pray that you urge you husband to be baptized if he has a repentant spirit and loves Jesus Christ. I would also urge your daughters to do the same when they come of age. I wouldn't worry too much though, Jesus Christ is a loving God.

Hi Tessy777. On the "Rate this Answer" button, you hit "agree" but disagreed. That's okay... no big deal. I was just curious as to whether you believed that the Bible is the Word of God. Also, do you believe that Jesus Christ God?

You are right, we probably agree on more than we disagree on but one thing that we are both doing (hopfully) is seeking the truth. I want to know what God expects of His children.

I had asked a question in my earlier post. Since you believe that baptism is totally unnecessary, should we black out those verses concerning that topic?

Action,

You misunderstood me. I do believe baptism is important. I believe anyone who professes Christ SHOULD be baptised. However, it is not a requirement for salvation. I have friends who believe it is... thats OK. I don't like to fight and argue of the WORD! It is too important and I have found that I haven't changed anyone's mind. I pray the Holy Spirit will do that for me or for them... whoever may be in error. Is Jesus GOD? He most certainly is... he is the Great I AM! How awesome is that... anyway?

No, we don't black out any verses. We put them in context, we understand who they are written to, when they were written and why they were written. It is about learning to understand how to read the Bible properly. Should we black out this verse? What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and THOU SHALT BE SAVED and they house. IF I read that correctly, it doesn't mention baptism AND all the times the apostle Paul gives the gospel, never ever does he say baptism is a requirement. It just isn't there.

One last thing Action, Jesus Christ is a loving GOD but he doesn't change his mind! IF baptism is a requirement for salvation (and it isn't) you should be advising people to be VERY CONCERNED if they haven't been baptized because if they did die... Jesus wouldn't be enough. You talk out of both sides of your mouth. You say it is "IMPORTANT" that is an understatement. According to YOUR belief the man isn't saved... it is a TAD more than just important. You should have her fast, pray, and fast some more for him to see the "light". By the way, your belief is poppycock. My JESUS paid the price in full, my responisbility? I can accept him as paying my debt in full or reject it... he doesn't need my help in anyway shape or form... for salvation. He needs my faith, not my help.

As far as baptism goes, if you are in Christ you are OUT of the will of God if you aren't baptized. It is disobedience to the Lord... it has NOTHING to do with salvation!

One REALLY last thing Action,

Do you understand that when Peter preached to the Jews to repent and be bapitzed for the remission of sins, that he had NO CLUE what GRACE was. He had NO CLUE of the "CHURCH". He was still looking for the KINGDOM... (Jesus to come back and set up the kingdom where he would rule and reign?) He was talking to JEWS! Why is that such a difficult concept?? Oh Jesus talked about being "born again" but just like Nicodemous, he didn't have a clue. He didn't even KNOW WHAT a CHRISTIAN was. He was a JEW... he was STILL keeping the LAW! He didn't know that Gentiles were going to be offered salvation, he didn't have a clue. Go back and read it, what had been revealed to him up to that point!? Who was he talking to? You really have to understand this or you make the Bible a real mess to figure out! Go to Chapter 3, the first verse... he is going to TEMPLE! (fyi... the "church doesn't go to temple!) Jesus hadn't revealed everything to the 12.yet... it was a BRAND NEW thing that Jesus was doing... get out of ACTS... keep going. It does get EVEN better. READ Romans.. it is the book right after ACTS. Salvation is now being offered to the GENTILES! Here is a thought READ ALL OF THE BOOKS that the Apostle Paul wrote to the "church doesnt go to temple!) Jesus hadn't revealed everything to the 12.yet...it was a BRAND NEW thing that Jesus was doing...get out of ACTS ....keep going. It does get EVEN better. READ Romans..it is the book right after ACTS. Salvation is now being offered to the GENTILES! Here is a thought READ ALL OF THE BOOKS that the Apostle Paul wrote to the "... then come talk to me about baptism as a requirement for salvation.!

Do you understand that the GOSPELS don't even have the Gospel in them? They are books about the life of Jesus, his death, his burial, his resurrection... but how to be saved? Not there. Did you know that you are completely in error talking about John the Baptist? Did JOHN the BAPTIST understand the GOSPEL of CHRIST in the four Gospels... uhhhh NO! REPENT and Be Baptized for the... what was it.. oh yeah... KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND! Hello!! Nothing there about salvation.

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Originally Posted by fkyouall

Jesus was both fully human, and fully divine. He was BOTH , hard to wrap ur mind around it but its just like the Holy trinity and that there is no begining to God, for he always existed and always will exist. Just things we puny humans can't understand completely.

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Odd name for someone who has the understanding and insight that you do. I agree with your post but I hope I don't fall in the crosshairs of your namesake.