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I like the idea of a "club". It would be treated more as an extracuricular activity. We have different things at our school now, i.e.. choir or jump rope team, that meet before school and I am sure there are teams that meet after school.
Would something like that be acceptable? I would let my kid join. (big surprise right? ;) )
Until you get conflicts because so-and-so went to the Muslim room, and that means he's a terrorist. Or until Billy decides he can't be friends with Bobby because he hasn't accepted Jesus into his heart. Or until the atheist kids are assaulted because they don't believe so they're going to hell. And never mind the fact that organized prayer isn't supposed to take place on government property when organized by government employees, even if it IS prayer to all entities. It opens up a big, ugly can of worms.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
Let's also not forget that it's taking time out of the school day for actual learning of core subjects; 5 minutes to get to the classroom, 15 minutes of prayer, 5 minutes to get to your next class... 25 minutes out of the day that could be spent on math, spelling, reading, music, or PE. Have you seen our national test scores? Academic Failure - International Test Scores - Poor TIMSS Results. Pray at home, learn in school.
Oh, and then there's this...
in order to be constitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment any practice sponsored within state run schools must: 1) have a secular purpose, 2) must neither advance nor inhibit religion, and 3) must not result in an excessive entanglement between government and religion.
School prayer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Plain and simple - it is against the Constitution and SCOTUS rulings!
Want to have organized prayer in school? Start a prayer club. How to have prayers in public schools -- legally and The Federal Equal Access Act. That is NOT against SCOTUS rulings.
Way back in the dim dark ages of the 1950's we had a system in Australia where twice a week priests of all denominations would come and take a class, usually straight after lunch, and we would go to the "church" we elected or were told to go to by our parents, or what ever, but we went to separate classes, the whole school, and there was never any hasstle over what religion you went to , we had more important things to fight over, like who did what to whom and why, or the football match or the cricket.
I do believe things have become absolutely ridiculous when children are dragged into the phobias and rejudices of the parents,God said love your enemies but we take vengeance, God said love your heighbour , but only as long as they stay on their side of the fence,
No wonder it grieved God that He had made man on the Earth.
I find it all so sad.
Blessings <M>
You mean kids today can't tell which are the Muslim children unless they go into a room marked Musllim? That's hard to believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
I remember Protestant children telling me that in Public School. Protestant adults tell me that today on the streets and in the work place. Should we abridge their right to free speech?Quote:
Or until Billy decides he can't be friends with Bobby because he hasn't accepted Jesus into his heart.
Well now, if the atheists kids are anything like I was, they give as good as they get.Quote:
Or until the atheist kids are assaulted because they don't believe so they're going to hell.
Nah.Quote:
And never mind the fact that organized prayer isn't supposed to take place on government property when organized by government employees, even if it IS prayer to all entities. It opens up a big, ugly can of worms.
Yeah. Schools that permit their children to pray, Christian schools, get higher test scores.Quote:
Let's also not forget that it's taking time out of the school day for actual learning of core subjects; 5 minutes to get to the classroom, 15 minutes of prayer, 5 minutes to get to your next class... 25 minutes out of the day that could be spent on math, spelling, reading, music, or PE. Have you seen our national test scores?
I prefer, pray at home and at school.Quote:
Pray at home, learn in school.
This is the so called "Lemon test" a court ruling. Court rulings can be overturned.Quote:
Oh, and then there's this...
in order to be constitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment any practice sponsored within state run schools must: 1) have a secular purpose, 2) must neither advance nor inhibit religion, and 3) must not result in an excessive entanglement between government and religion.
School prayer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I disagree. Forbidding children to pray violates our Constitutional right to worship.Quote:
Plain and simple - it is against the Constitution
[quote]and SCOTUS rulings!
We're looking to overturn those.
I look for a day when our children will be free to pray as their parents intend in Public SchoolQuote:
Want to have organized prayer in school? Start a prayer club.
How to have prayers in public schools -- legally and The Federal Equal Access Act. That is NOT against SCOTUS rulings.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Quote:
Originally Posted by miykle
That's great, really. If kids didn't have prejudices about who went where--more power to 'em!
But--did kids in the 50s have to deal with suicide bombers primarily from one religion? If they had chosen to go to a buddhist or hindu or Russian orthodox "priest" in the days of big, bad, anti-communism, would they have been labeled commie bastards by their peers?
Also--and really this idea isn't THAT bad an idea--what about those who are from extremely small religions? My religion is less than one percenet of the world's population--does my kid just have to sit quietly with the atheists because the likelihood of a Wiccan priest or priestess going to a school is so slight? Or in a small town, where there may be a school of 204, and 199 are Christian (let's just say there's about 4 different denominations dividing them about equally), 1 is Jewish, 1 is Muslim, 1 is Pagan, 1 is Hindu, and 1 is an atheist. Are you going to still have separate classes for those 5 kids? Or will they just all be lumped together as "other"?
I'm truly not trying to be facetious here--but trying to understand how it might work.
I like Ruby's post about the Prayer Clubs--THAT is a great idea, as long as it's led by a student and not a teacher.
I like this idea too, as I have pointed out. And not to split hairs or anything, but most clubs in schools have to have a teacher sponsor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
And what would be wrong with that? If there is a Christian (or any other religion) teacher that is willing to give up their time to sponsor this group - where is the harm?
I mean, you have teachers sponsoring the cheerleaders, the football players, the french club, spanish club, chess club, etc. Why couldn't you have a teacher sponsor the prayer club?
Reading this thread has reminded me that I am very lucky to be living where I am and am lucky to have the school system that my daughter is in. Kind of likes Thanksgiving everyday. :)
Hello again:
Synnen's got it. There aren't enough rooms in a schoolhouse to accommodate ALL the religions... If you don't accommodate ALL of them, which ones are your going to offend?
What if I made up a religion? Would I be given my own room?? Or is that for "established" religions?? Who decides which ones are "established"?? The government?? The parents?? I don't think so.
Nope. From a practical standpoint, the framers of the Constitution knew what they were talking about...
excon
PS> Please De Maria, within your apparent liberal approach, are you really going to be OK with a room of devil worshipers in your school?? What if you found out that one of the teachers went to the Satan room to pray??
Nahhh, I think your liberalism would end as soon as you got YOUR religion in school.
I actually didn't suggest the prayer clubAnd, Nowwhat voiced her agreement with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by hollyheartless
I think prayer clubs are a good idea. I also think that teachers who want to sponsor it should be allowed to do so. As long as it is dealt with in the same manner as other clubs, if there are enough kids that want to join, then it should be allowed.
Actually that is not entirely true. My nephews go to one of the best public schools in the country. If you look at all those schools there are common factors involved and religion being taught within the schools is not one of them. Those schools scores are higher than many of the private schools. But, I will admit to you that most of the people in that community have very close ties with their houses of worship. At home, religious instruction is a big part of their lives. But, not in the school. These families in that community are very closeknit and for the most part, everything is family oriented.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The parents (school board) in that community ensure that they have the best teachers and curriculum. There is an academic expectation placed on those children. IMO, our problems in the public schools in this country stem from lack of parental involvement.
I don't see anything wrong with having a prayer club and if some religions are left out they should not take offense because at the end of the Day the US is 76% Christian and other religios groups consist of fractions of a persentage of the US population. So schools don't have to accommodate every little religious group just to be "fair" because it is not feasible so if the domanant religions have clubs the little one should not take offense. If they choose to take offense then they can move to a country where their religion has the greatest representation. America has aways been predomantantly Christian and it will always be that way and those who don't like it are free to leave to a country that puts more emphasis on their religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Really now?
Religious identification in the U.S.
Quote:
Polling data from the 2001 ARIS study:
The United States appears to be going through an unprecedented change in religious practices. Large numbers of American adults are disaffiliating themselves from Christianity and from other organized religions.
By about the year 2042, non-Christians will outnumber the Christians in the U.S
Prayer clubs are a great idea. See my post #182. Also see these links:
How to have prayers in public schools -- legally
The Federal Equal Access Act
They are required to be student-run, but can be teacher supervised. The teachers cannot participate because that would be like the school advocating that particular religion. I suppose an adult volunteer could supervise and lead the children - I'm not sure about that though.
That is possibly the most intolerant thing I've ever read. Congrats, you win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldout
How about instead you read the law about prayer clubs and you say "I think prayer clubs are a great idea, and any group of students of any denomination should be able to form one. That way it's fair to all and everyone can be happy."
:rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Yes, really now... lol I am not going to believe some BS you got off the internet that was written by an atheist with serous wishful thinking.. lol I could also find a web sit that says the opposite of that. So if the website comforts you, good for you. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Of course, I agree with you 100% jillian. But I just want to point out that unfortunately, it is NOT always feasible to represent every minority. It happens all the time. For instance...
A school is willing to host several after school clubs. But there just aren't enough students interested in chess to form a chess club. So sorry.. No chess club this year.
This might be off your point, but you see what I mean. It's not always feasible for every minority to be represented. Even if the kids are willing to form a group themselves, the school is not always in a position to provide the resources for these minority students to use. And you can't always fault the school for this.
There is nothing intolerable about what I said if read the context of what I was responding to. I was responding to someone who said they should not allow Christians to form prayer clubs because that would mean they would have to accommodate every single religion which would be physically imposible. So I said if the Christians and other major religions like Islam for these groups, the other smaller religions should not take any offense because the religions that would be represented have make up a much larger percentage of the population. So no I am not intolerent, but I just don't believe they should stop prayer for 1000 people just because 3 people are not going to be represented.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
I am sorry I didn't notice that in your post Jillian. Yes, teachers cannot participate, but as it stands now, the rules are that a teacher must be willing to sponsor & supervise it.
Soldout, once again you are not paying attention to what is being said. I think many of us here on this thread don't have a problem with prayer clubs. The problem the majority of us have is with prayer being an integral part of the academic curriculum in public schools. There are disagreements on this thread regarding the intention and interpretation of the Constitution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldout
One of the principle reasons this country was founded was to allow freedom from religious oppression. So, in keeping with your last sentence, if you don't like what is occurring in this country, why don't you consider moving, instead of asking non-Christians to do so. Tolerance for others is something that appears to be severely lacking in your statement.
lobrobster, I have to "spread it" but I completely agree with your thoughts in your post. Clubs require a minimum amount of children willing to participate. They also require a teacher who will be willing to sponsor and supervise. Without those factors, clubs cannot be formed.
The difference is, they are student-led; they don't require a teacher participate. Got two Hindu kids? They can form a Hindu club. Many clubs can be formed (with 2 participants up to 100) and can meet in one large room under the supervision of one teacher; since the teacher doesn't participate, they can supervise multiple groups. When I was in school we formed a writing club, the teacher who sponsored us "supervised" us by coming in every 20 minutes or so to make sure we weren't breaking anything. Maybe that's not the way it's SUPPOSED to be done, but if that's acceptable, why couldn't one teacher supervise three clubs in three different rooms?Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
But beyond that, the key is that the clubs are OPEN to all religions, and from what I've read, the school cannot allow ONE and refuse ANOTHER. It's either allow them all, or allow none, as it should be. It doesn't mean a club has to be formed for each religion, just the OPTION for the club to be formed.
I didn't see this post when I was responding to your first one. Thank you for explaining your intentions. The problem is that, as you know, the smaller groups that don't have representation do take offense. But, it is up to them to change it and find a way to make their clubs happen if they so choose. A club is just that. It is separate from the public school curriculum and if they abide by the guidelines laid out, then any group has the right to form.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldout
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