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I've been wondering about this for some time now... Why do Catholics have statues of virgins, of a man on the cross representing Jesus when God said that we should not praise idols? Because that's how I see, it, idols!
The Israeli once made a golden cow to represent God, and He was not pleased the least. Instead, he was angry at them and wanted to kill them. (Exodus 32:10)
The short answer: We have statues of the people we look up to not unlike having a picture on the wall of a long dead grandparent.
Here is some more detail that you might be interested in reading: Do Catholics Worship Statues?
Thanks for answering Rick! (I haven't seen you around for a long time heh!:))
I'll take a look at the link you provided. :)
I'm around... but "invisible" - lurking in the shadows :)
LOL! I haven't seen you posting that is to say. Now now, I don't want to hijack my on thread, :eek: Cya then! :) I'll have a look at the link. There's pretty much to read...
Unknown008,
Yes Rick provided some excellent links to ponder with.
An idol is something that is worshiped such as in paganism.
Catholics do not worship statues just as people in a city park do not worship the statue of some person or hero that has been placed there.
The statues you might see in a cathedral are representative of saintly people held in high esteem.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Hi, Unknown008!
My own, personal view on this, is that statues and any other representations of things or people in the form of statuary, paintings, ornaments, altar decorations and ornaments, chancel decorations and ornaments, rosaries, etc. that are placed in and around church buildings, in cemeteries, etc. can also be viewed as works of art. They most often are used as remembrances, commemorations and things to have to help us to be "in touch" in some tangible way with the things that we might believe as a matter of faith.
Works of art can be and are reflections of something that has happened in the past, how people feel or felt about something, how people might perceive things to be in their "world", or in the "world" of others and many other things.
Centuries ago, people in many different faiths didn't have cameras, t.v. or any of the other modern ways was "capturing" something, other than writing it down, so that it would stand the test of time. So, creating works of art, was a way of being able to have something that would last into the future so as to help generations in the future to be reminded of an historical event; somebody that should be remembered and thought about because of what that person taught and/or believed; to be reminded of the reasons as to why people of any certain faith might believe what they do and why they do things the way that they do in the practice of their faith, etc.
How people created their art because a matter of custom and tradition.
Examples of what a couple works of art within the Christian tradition might represent:
Paintings, pictures and statuary of praying hands is a reminder of a way to pray, and also to pray.
Paintings, pictures and statuary of Jesus hanging on the cross, are reminders of the suffering that Jesus went through to redeem us from our sins. In many denominations, Jesus is shown on the cross, but represented in such a way as showing that he had power over sin and death.
What those things represent, will also vary, depending on the belief of the individual.
Different denominations have different traditions that they like to continue over time. This is even true between different congregational bodies within a single denomination.
Thanks!
The point is that, here, not only do Catholics kneel to the statues (which I just read that is does not necessarily mean that they worship the statue) but they do also mention the name of for example, Virgin Mary, look after us... etc. The fact that they strike the statues, give them offerings, pray to them is what makes me think that they are worshipping idols.
Then maybe not all Catholics are like that, as I understand from the link given by Rick, and thanks again for that. I did think all Catholics were the same everywhere (silly me). The link made things clearer, as well as your answers. But I also think that in my country, there are some, is not most, catholics who are 'extremists'.
Fred an idol is something that takes the place of God, this is why the people were told not to make images, because God didn't want them using someoneelse's image when they were relating to him. Today people have many idols but this whole statue thing has missed the point, the relationship is supposed to be one on one with God, there isn't supposed to be anyone else in the picture. Just another case of tradition nullifying the Word of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
In this case the Catholic Church threw away one of God's commandments
Fred's answer was perfectly understandable. You have managed to twist it into something it was never intended to be. Obviously, the Catholic Church did not "throw away one of God's commandments". Equally obviously, you have a thing re the Catholic Church. One would think, in the 21st century, the canard about Catholics worshiping statues would be finally put to rest. Apparently not in your world.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
In my "world" the question does not arise because I am not confronted with these images when I go to a place of worship, but I do know people who find it confronting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
The reality is there are many "cunards" that are not lain to rest because the Catholic practice continues unabated. The only "thing" I have regarding the Catholic Chrurch is they didn't introduce me to Jesus
The word is "canard", not "cunard". Good grief! How revealing is that! Spare us your nonsense. Nobody's listening. Good night.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Canard "to half-sell a duck" I am not selling you any ducks or ocean voyages for that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
I know that you are not listening, this, of course, is the problem, no one is listening. It is just business as usual!
Lol. You got THAT right! Sound and fury, signifying nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Nice to see you have a sense of humor.
Well, I'm not listening either but I'm reading all these posts... I was thinking like you did paraclete. But the other arguments were pointed out, and now I understand. The point is that, they must never put these statues prior to God. If they keep them as a matter of art, then that's fine. But the moment that they put some 'importance' or 'consideration' in they so that they also consider these statues as powerful beings who can also save them apart from God, then that becomes a violation of the ten commandments.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
And please, stop creating a thread if that's in reply to a post in here. I don't want the mods (Fr-Chuck) to have too much work, I quite know what being a mod requires, and please, make it easier for everyone. The thread is here, so post in here so that people can understand what's going on, OK?
The conversation however is good, keep it coming :)
So, paraclete, do you also condemn ALL the Christian churches that have a cross in them?
The main thread remains the same, we have the ability to put a heading on a reply and I use that facility when appropriate, like this has nothing to do with the main thread. As far as Chuck doing some work, he took on the job.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Unknown008
Yes I do, and what I notice is that this is a fairly humourless place, everyone takes themselves and the subject so seriously, like their world will end if they get it wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
But then that's religion for you, but do you know Scripture says; God Laughs.:D
I don't spend my time condemning anyone but I do have opinions about the difference between Christianity and religion. What was it Paul said, he hoped to save some?Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
Religious people cannot stand for anyone to have an opinion which is contrary to theirs, this is why they crucified Jesus. There are some who would say that the methodology employed in our christian churches today is just a continuation of pagan practices and in some places it is more apparent than others.
Consider this
Jesus sort the lost
Jesus preached the Kingdom of God
Jesus avoided preaching in buildings
Jesus didn't take a salary for his ministry
Jesus prayed on mountain tops not in Churches
Jesus went to the people, not demanded the people come to him
Catholics hold that to worship a statue to be a sin, just as Protestants do, (see Ex. 20:4-5 and Ex. 32:31). However, a symbol of our Christian faith is no more idolatry than for a Protestant to put the Christian 'fish' symbol on the bumper of their car. Come to think of it I thought I saw Southern Baptist preacher Jones kneeling in front of his car the other day. The car had one of those fish symbols on his bumper. I wonder if he was praying to the fish symbol so that the car would levitate or was he trying to start his car? What do you think – silly isn't it? There are no statues in Catholic Churches that are worshiped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown008
And then there is the first book of Chronicles, chapter 28 where David built Sole a Temple; “And for the altar of incense, he gave the purest gold: and to make the likeness of the chariot of the cherubims spreading their wings, and covering the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All these things, said he, came to me written by the hand of the Lord that I might understand all the works of the pattern.” (V18-19) David's plan clearly included statues of angels. Oops! Did David mess up? Maybe instead of starting the Kingdom of David he was worshiping pagan idols – you, think David was guilty of polytheism? After all there were 'two' statutes of angels. You know two is more than one and 'poly' means many (which is more than one) – hence David was a polytheist? Why would Christ want his linage starting with David if he was an evil polytheist? Or maybe symbols used to remind us of our heavenly goal is OK? Or should we through the fish back?
But, if we were to search Scripture further we'd see where statues were used by Moses. Oops again! We see in Exodus, 25 verses 18–20 “ Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other.” God spoke to Moses and TOLD him to build the statues. Was Moses like our good Southern Baptist preacher, standing behind the tabernacle trying to get the Hebrews started on their journey or was he worshiping the cherubs? Maybe keeping heavenly visions of our hope is better than a fishy bumpersticker – you reckon?
JoeT
Joe God told Moses to decorate the Arc of the Covenant, a place for God's habitation. It wasn't Moses idea and he did not tell Moses to duplicate it everywhere he went. So God did not sanction statues in the Church by decorating the Arc, it was a one off for God's pleasure.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
As to bumper stickers they are someone trying to say something like identifying themselves with Christ, Just like a priest or a nun carries a crucifix, an outward sign and maybe an offensive one if your reaction is any indication. If you find that Southern Baptist offensive, maybe he finds your statues offensive
If as you say, Moses decorated the Ark – which is the residence of God - then Catholics decorate their Church is following good precedence. You see, in the Church is an equivalent to the tabernacle which is filled with the 'Real Presence of God'. So then, it would be wrong not to put statues?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Crucifixes are carried to take them from place to place – not to be an outward sign.Quote:
As to bumper stickers they are someone trying to say something like identifying themselves with Christ, Just like a priest or a nun carries a crucifix, an outward sign and maybe an offensive one if your reaction is any indication. If you find that Southern Baptist offensive, maybe he finds your statues offensive
It was never indicated that the bumper sticker was offensive – that was your take on my comment.
JoeT
JoeT777, my point was clearly stated through the whole thread. I said that the Catholics that I saw, they prayed in the name of the statue, virgin Mary for example, another would be 'notre dame de Lourdes' or 'notre dame de la paix' (I'm in more of a francophone country), etc.
I think that if the statues are mean for an 'artistic' purpose, then it's not idolatry. It becomes it when one considers that the statue (or other similar representation) is divine.
The thing about the car and the priest, I think that he may be putting his car in the hands of God, so that God protects him during his journeys by car, that is understandable, unless he said he worshipped his car.
Also, neither Moses nor David worshipped, nor loved, nor glorified these cherubims as far as I know. If they did really, then would you please say the verses?
Joe God doesn't live in temples or houses made by men. When the curtain was torn in the Temple at Jesus death God departed from the temple. Now he resides in the temple of the body with each believer so he has no need of a decorated house, these places are for us not God.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
The idea that the Church is equivalent of the tabernacle is a false teaching one of the many perpetuating the Old Testament ideas of religion, don't you know the meaning of Emmanuel "God with us"?
Where in the New Testament does it say that “God Departed?”Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
How is that so? Yes Emmanuel is with us. But actually I was referring to Christ's promise to being with us; “And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” Christ ascended to heaven yet he promised to be with us ALWAYS. This is why in Matthew we join with Christ in His' real presence', “Take ye and eat. This is my body… Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.” (Christ's 'real presence' among his faithful - Matt 26) John, in chapter 6, tells us Christ said, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.” The 'real presence of Christ'.Quote:
The idea that the Church is equivalent of the tabernacle is a false teaching one of the many perpetuating the Old Testament ideas of religion, don't you know the meaning of Emmanuel "God with us"?
The place where the 'real presence' of Christ', the Eucharist, is reserved is called a tabernacle. It serves the same function as Moses' tabernacle, e.g. the residence of God. To stand before the Tabernacle is to stand before Christ; as promised ALWAYS with us.
JoeT
Traditions of men, Joe, Christ didn't say anything about the eucharist, he said take and eat, not reserve, or preserve. Just man trying to put God back in the Box again.. Christ in us the hope of glory, not Christ in a boxQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
paraclete,
The Catholic Church did not throw away a Commandment.
Your opinion is very wrong.
Catholics do not worship statuues, only God.
Your dislike of the Catholic Church is showing just as it has on other boards over the years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Hi FredQuote:
Originally Posted by arcura
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,
Is this familiar to you Fred
Suggest you have a look at this comparison and tell me where did the commandment go?http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...sm/command.htm
The reality Fred is what I am about is truth, as to worship you should examine what constitutes worship but I would have thought praying to a saint in front of a statue wold constitute worship
As far as Catholics are concerned, fine, disciplined people but their hierarchy has a lot to answer for. Open your eyes Fred
And I'll add this is also in Deut 5: 8, 9 :)Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I hope I'm not offending anybody. I'm just pointing out that I know (and have seen) catholics that did worship a statue. I want to know whether that is the same in other countries too.
How then do you explain John 6:37-68. So, we attribute this to the tradition of God and are to immediately relegate it the world of “profiting nothing?” Is it really all that hard a thing? It was for some in Christ's time, I guess real truth can be a hard in our time?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
JoeT
paraclete,
Yes I am familiar with that passage, but it DOES NOT apply to what The Church believes of does.
My eyes were open many years ago when I started studying The Church and later left Protestantism to become a member of The Church for I DID find there the truth and not hate and bigotry as I formerly had been exposed to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
You see Fred, I don't know of any instance where Scriputure doesn't apply to what the Church believes, but apparently you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
So I have to ask;
What Gospel do they preach where you live?
Did Jesus die to redeem us?
Perhaps someoneelse is capable of saving us?
paraclete,
To answer your questions...
The Catholic Church teaches the gospels found in the Holy Bible that The Church originally put together as inspired by the Holy Spirit and provided same for the world.
Jesus was born, lived, taught by word and deed, died and rose from the dead to save us.
We are saved by the grace of the triune God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
[QUOTE=paraclete;1947511 I would have thought praying to a saint in front of a statue wold constitute worship[/QUOTE]
Then you would be wrong. This is the problem with coming off half-cocked without having educated oneself about the matter: One tends to fall prey to all sorts of shallow mistakes because one hasn't taken the time to inform oneself.
Christians have always distinguished between worship and veneration. Worship (proskunesis, in Greek) is reserved for God alone. Catholics don't worship saints; Catholics venerate saints. Veneration is, in fact, a very good thing. Catholics worship only the Holy Trinity.
The corpus on a crucifix is there as a bulwark against docetism--that heretical view which holds that Christ wasn't really fully human. It is there to remind us that Christ really did become human and really did suffer and die for us. An empty cross--a cross without a corpus or figure of Christ--doesn't signify anything uniquely Christian since many thousands of people were crucified by the Romans. It isn't the cross that we worship, nor is it the cross that saves; it is the man-God upon the cross we wish to call to mind. Yes?
Statues and icons are placed in churches as a reminder that we are part of the communion of saints, participants in the divine liturgy alongside all those who have worshiped God and served him throughout the ages. These matters have been the subject of theological discussion since the very beginning of Christianity. Interestingly, the sort of iconoclasm you appear to advocate isn't itself Christian in origin: It has it's origins in Islam and was imported into certain strands of Christianity after the rise of Islam in the Middle East.
If you are unable to tell the difference between veneration and worship, then I suggest that the problem is yours, not Catholics'. Millions of Catholic and Orthodox Christians have had no trouble with it at all for two thousand years.
Akoue,
For about 30 years I did have trouble with worship vs veneration of statues. But when I started studying Catholicism it was one of the first things I learned to know the difference.
Then veneration of saints such as Mary, Peter, James and John rather than worship came next.
My road to Rome was rough and rocky at times, particularly from the fact that I was raised Luther in a very Lutheran family.
But I did find that the more I learned about the truth of Catholicism vs what I had been formerly taught was very must a marvelous spiritual journey.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
All roads to spiritual truth are rough and rocky at times. I'm glad you found the road that works for you. We're all seekers and, as the good book says, "...there are many mansions in my Father's house".Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Fred:
I was raised Catholic and reintegrated, so to speak, in a fighting hole after a short falling-out; then I settled in the land of the Southern Baptist. To survive, I learned to rely on our 2,000 years of Catholic history for answers for the 'once saved always saved' crowd. This may be the reason for my 'in-your-face' manner.
I've been told by Protestant converts that the single most difficult hurdle is the adoration of Mary – I never understood why. Since you're a convert, can you shed any light? These same converts also tell me that statues and the Crucifixes seem 'different' but easily understood. Consequently, the objection over the veneration of statues by non-Catholics seems to be simple demagoguery. More to the point, the argument seems to be used to validate pigeonholing Catholics as pagans or some 'sub-Christian' group, not sophisticated. Do you get the same impressions? Your insight would be valued and appreciated.
JoeT
JoeT,
Yes I do get the same impressions from some.
I did not have much trouble with the veneration of Mary once I understood the communion of saints and veneration of our saintly brothers and sisters who have gone before us.
One of my digest hurdles to get over was brothers and sisters of Jesus and that Mary was NOT ever virgin.
For a long time. Even after I became a Catholic I had the attitude that if He did have them as blood siblings it made no difference to me; Jesus was still my Lord and savior.
I grew from that to accepting that maybe Joseph did have children by a former wife.
And I needed to grow in understanding from that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Hmm, you gave some point there Akoue. Would you mind explaining further about veneration and worship? I mean, like showing how they really differ in the way they are carried out.
Thanks, the discussion is very interesting! :)
And to fall back, one also looks at the Orthodox Church, which I often do in questions like this. We know there was one basic church till the East and West separated @ 1000 AD. So by looking at the things the two churches share in common we see tradition and teachings that are not as much "church" but practice from this eariler time. The use of symbols and other icons are very common and one only has to enter a Orthodox Church to find that a Catholic church has very few compared to the Eastern practice.
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