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I have many friends who are gay and have not chosen to be that way. I always thought God gave us differences so that we could look past them and accept each other for who we are and not worry about differences or faults. I know it says in the Bible that being gay is a sin, but it always says there is no greater commandment than to love your neighbor as yourself and the love God the Father with everything we are.
No, it doesn't.
When we come to Christ, we come with whatever failings and whatever sins that we have, and we take them to the cross, and it is His righteousness that is imputed to us. But just as we would not expect a person to engages in any other sin to continue in that sin unchanged, if a person is truly changed, then we should expect to see that change reflected in their life. Perhaps not immediately, but the person should start having their desires changed from those of the "old man" to those of the "newman", regardless of what sins we engaged in prior to being saved.
Rom 6:1-2
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
NKJV
God calls us to change and we see that some in the church in Corinth were homosexuals and were changed after they received Christ.
1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV
For your edification:
Rom 1:18-24
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
(KJV)
Lev 20:13
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
(KJV)
Deut 23:17
17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
(KJV)
IKing 14:24
24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
(KJV)
IKing 15:12
12 And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.
(KJV)
IKing 22:46
46 And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.
(KJV)
II Ki 23:7
7 And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.
(KJV)
Joel 3:3
3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
(KJV)
Matt 19:4-5
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
(KJV)
Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)
That's the bad news.
The good news is that Jesus saves FROM sin and those bound by perversions can be set free if they want to be.
As a Christ's student I would say the same as my teacher did say to all of us sinners.
Go and sin no more!
We are all God's beloved sons and daughters,but that does not mean that He loves our acts as well.
God's love is not the case here,but it is who do we love more,God or sin?
Yea plan and simple that's as simple as adam and eve
Here is a relevant news article that appeared this morning:
Homosexuality to Heterosexuality: Can the Transition Be Made? - Health - Israel News - Israel National News
There is no such thing as someone being less of a Christian. You either ARE or you aren't. If you are IN Christ how can you be Less in HIM?
The real issue is whether we die to our sinful desires. I don't struggle with homosexuality... I have my OWN sin struggles. I have had times in my Christian walk where I have been on fire for the Lord and times when I chose to live for myself and actually questioned my own salvation or Christianity. When we live to fulfill our sinful desires and we are believers this is normal. We are always in a war.
We as Christians need to come to terms with what God has to say about right and wrong. Not what the world says.. because they will tell you... 'if it feels good... do it". But God says....there is pleasure in Sin for a SEASON. Any sin has some pleasure in it or we wouldn't struggle with it.
So the answer is NO....it just makes you part of the human race. But as Adam7gur posted the Lord's standard is "go and sin No More". We need to die to our sinfull desires.
What comes to mind is that we are not to call any unclean that God has made clean. So once we answer the calling by confessed faith in Christ Jesus, we are to walk as HE walked.
Phl 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Faith in Christ set us free from the curse of law, and the curse of sin. We have been delivered and redeemed by the law of Faith in Christ.
So we are to use causion, and in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let all our requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep our hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. (Phl 4:6-7)
Our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus stands at the door for those who seek HIM
Phl 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
It's a matter of who we follow, and when we decide to deny ourselves to follow Christ in the Law of Faith
Thank you all for your advice. It makes a lot of sense to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
ClassyT, I trust you and Tom would agree that there are those that can be double minded? In the book of revelation it was shown how there were 7 churches IN Christ, yet less then what was pleasing to God, 5 of those churches need to repent.
Correct me if I am not on the same page with your thoughts on being less of a Christians..***************************
And that scripture tells us, each is given grace in accordance of measure of the gift of Christ (Eph 4:7)
Would this be a level difference between men in their faith? Yes
Until an individual conforms from the old man of deceit and lust into the newness of life or renewed spirit of mind, they are not yet in the fullness of Christ.
The full measure is in putting on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Eph 4:24)
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.
~In Christ
Sndbay,Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
I for one am not sure what you are thinking of with one being "less of a Christian". One cannot be partially saved, or have enough salvation to get halfway to heaven and be stuck. One is either saved or not saved - that is how I see it.
Certainly we can have differing level a of faith, but that does not relate to differing levels of salvation. It does not depend upon our faithfulness (thank goodness or I think that we would all be in trouble - myself included), but rather upon HIS faithfulness.Quote:
And that scripture tells us, each is given grace in accordance of measure of the gift of Christ (Eph 4:7)
Would this be a level difference between men in their faith? Yes
That is sanctification - growing to be more like Christ. That starts AFTER we are saved, so again it does not make a person more or less of a Christian, or more or less saved, just a person who is more or less mature in the faith, or more or less sanctified.Quote:
Until an individual conforms from the old man of deceit and lust into the newness of life or renewed spirit of mind, they are not yet in the fullness of Christ.
Agree...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
However the statement was being less of a christian is not possible.. The point made was not whether we can be less then saved.
This would be whether all that call themselves Christian can be saved?(We are not saying that or asking)
What is being questioned in my posting is, Can someone call themselve a Christain and be less then what is pleasing to God? I trust they can because of the level of faith. We are not to judge salvation yet we are to discern the action of occurance. (example : are the actions of homosexuality less then Christian?)
We are asked to be faithful, and remain stedfast in faith of Christ Jesus. Yet we can not be puffed up one against the other, for the glory of all is in the Father. As it is written: For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. (1 Corinthians 4:2-4)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
I also want to point out that once you are saved, you cannot lose that salvation.
Different topic - I agree that you cannot inadvertently l;ose your salvation, but you can subsequently choose to reject it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniepepsi
Now you'll find out where ClassyT and I disagree ;)
Yes. There are plenty of Scriptures that warn against falling away and denying the faith, so it is possible to start well and lose out in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I can supply verses, if you want to see them.
Both of these statements are true. I'm not exactly sure what your real point is. But don't ever impute any of mans' sinfulness to God by saying he "gave us differences" or anything like that. God is not to blame and is not responsible for our sinfulness, whether it be sins of a sexual nature or whatever.Quote:
I know it says in the Bible that being gay is a sin, but it always says there is no greater commandment than to love your neighbor as yourself and the love God the Father with everything we are.
All of us are sinners in some parts of our life.
Who stole a ink pen today, that is still theft, who had bad thoughts about that driver who cut us off.
Who perhaps had unpure thoughts about that young girl, or guy in that skimpy outfit.
We all are sinners, but need to first admit our sin.
Well with the discussion on less saved and you are saved or you are not and all...
What Jenni said is relevant because even though we may struggle with or sins and we may even backslide and come back people do tend to say stuff like they got saved,
They lost their salvation,
They came back to the Lord.
God isn't in heaven with a pencil and eraser erasing our name and rewriting it every time we mess up. So even when we have come to Christ and we haven't gotten rid of our old ways God isn't using that eraser either.
Grr got to spread the rep nohelp :(
But finally someone gets what I was trying to say :P I didn't know how to explain it :) thanks hon!
This is kind of off topic but the Apostle Paul says we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit. Now, how are you going to get UNsealed? It ain't happening. Jesus also says he will never leave us or forsake us. Never means just that... NEVER. God cannot lie.
Yep we are finite and rationalize salvation and other things of God in our finite minds but God is way bigger and transcends our rational limitations.
Scripture is clear that is is possible to walk away from (reject) salvation, but not to return.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Heb 6:4-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV
A person may backslide, but just backsliding does not mean that a person has ceased to be saved.
He will never leave us - but that does not mean that no one ever leaves Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Yes that is true and many people believe they are Christians thus saved that are not... but as far as somebody that is truly God's then their name may never have been there to be erased even though they may have thought it was.
There are at least a couple verses that do say something about the elect being deceived or lead away from the faith so yeah it can happen.
Tom,
And what happens if I walk away from the Lord and go do my own thing?. will HE leave me? He said he wouldn't. There wasn't a condition.. he said NEVER. And believe me.. if I could screw something up like my salvation... I will. I know me.
No, it does not. And folks will pull any kind of scriptures out of the Bible in an attempt to make others conform to their way of thinking, being, and doing. The Bible was not written by GOD, but by humans like you and I. GOD is real! And each of have a right to serve or believe in any way we choose!
Yeah everybody does have a right that is why he didn't make us puppets or robots but that doesn't mean what we believe IS right. There is only one truth and my goal is to figure out what is true to the best I can.
You are going to believe what you believe and so am I.
You can believe God according to your own agenda but in the end if it is wrong then you can't complain.
Psalm 139 says that we can never leave the presence of God, even if we make our bed in hell. He proved that by coming to earth in the flesh to die on the cross for our sins, for those who were in rebellion against Him. So we know that He does not walk away.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
But scripture is clear that those He is faithful we are not always. That is why when the covenants were make in the OT, it was not a two way covenant, man covenanting with God and God with man, but it was ONLY God who made the covenant because ONLY He is faithful - we are not.
So man can and may walk away. Will God say that we are lost if we fail - one? Twice, a hundred times? No. But what if a person completely and absolutely reject God, turns away from their salvation, wants absolutely nothing to do with God moving forward. Is that God walking away? No. Will God force Him to spend eternity with Him? Where do we find that in scripture? If God was going to force salvation on anyone, why didn't He do that right from the start?
Tom,
We have discussed this before. If someone has a relationship with the Lord Jesus, not just professes Christianity but talks to him, meditates on His word... KNOWS him how can that person say... " NAAAH.. I choose something else"? I can't wrap my mind around it. It is like me discussing stuff with you and saying... you aren't real or I don't believe that you exsist.. it makes NO sense to me.
HOWEVER having HEAD knowledge of the Lord and professing Christianity but never really receiving HIM.. oh yeah, I can see how you could walk out and choose something else.. or nothing at all because it was NEVER real.
Have you asked your friends why they chose to be something many people hate and revile? If not, please do so. And ask they if they actually did CHOOSE to be homosexual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christfollower
At what age did you consciously choose to be heterosexual?
I agree that it is hard to comprehend, but I also find it equally hard to comprehend why the majority of mankind rejects Him in the first place. I cannot comprehend how Peter could deny the Lord three times. I cannot comprehend many things that people do, but they do them nonetheless.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
That being said, I do think that the number of times that anyone reject salvation after being saved would be very very few, but scripture says it does happen, so who am I to say that it doesn't?
There is too much evidence to the contrary to believe that.Quote:
Originally Posted by WATCHYOURMOUTH
Yes you do, and God has the right to dictate what you must do to be saved.Quote:
GOD is real! And each of have a right to serve or believe in any way we choose!
Well now Tommy boy you know if scripture SAID it.. I'd believe it. I don't think it does say it. I think you need to put it into context! The writer of Hebrews in my humble opinion was NOT talking about true Christians... only those that "tasted" "partook" how many people in our churches today are just like them? LOTS... and LOTSSS... all head knowledge.. that is my take.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Your pal,
Tess
I don't think anything makes you less a christian, or less ANYTHING.Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
God said we are ALL EQUAL IN HIS EYES. We are ALL equall sinners, we are all either christian or not. You can't be 'well, I'm 20% christian, but not 100%"
If you are not 100% christian, I don't believe you are a christian AT ALL.
There. I said my peace (or piece. How ever its suppose to be said) lets see what anyone has to say about that ;) hehe
Just like Jesus only "tasted" death on the cross?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Heb 2:8-9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
NKJV
Does that mean that He did not really die?
Partaking of the Holy Spirit is the same term used by peter to describe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:4). Is Peter speaking of people who are not really saved?
Tom,
I don't know because I haven't study it out. ( about Peter's terminology and use of the word) Of course the Lord really died, he didn't stay dead though and last time I checked everyone that has died so far has stayed DEAD. ( that is their earthly bodies anyway) So in that way I could see why Paul says he 'tasted" death. These obviously are just my thoughts...
But He was really dead and came back to life.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Just like those who taste of the Holy Spirit. Really saved and then cease to be. They tasted of the Holy Spirit just like Jesus tasted of death.
Let me add this. The word tasted is geuomai, which according to Strong's means:
a primary verb; to taste; by implication, to eat; figuratively, to experience (good or ill):
The word "partakers" referring to being partakers of the Holy Spirit is metochos which, again according to Strong's, means:
participant, i.e. (as noun) a sharer; by implication an associate:
I understand your difficulty is seeing how a person could be saved and then turn away from it. I share that difficulty. I find it more difficult to argue that scripture does not say that there are some who do leave the faith after being saved.
Scripture tells us that God is equal, and HIS way is equal for all. Everyone has the same equal way to live in Christ, in Faith of all that is written. The gospel is profitable unto godliness, and (all souls belong to God. Eze 18:4)Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniepepsi
It is man that is not equal, nor are his ways equal.
EXAMPLE: Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? Are not your ways unequal?
When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die... However! Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? Are not your ways unequal?
********
When you say God does not use a pencil and eraser to what we are doing, I find HIS judgement to be upon righteousness. God certainly cares for each of us, and God does watch over us, and give us reprove and tries us. (That is HIS pencil and eraser...) The book of revelation speaks of those who will be clothed in fine linen, and it is the righteousness of acts that makes us ready as a bride for the wedding. (Revel 19:7)
Those who follow Christ are clothed in fine linen, clean and white.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
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