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Specific proof of God's existence

I've spent much of today reading post about the word "know" vs the word belief.
I've always thought the word "know" was thrown around too loosely. For example. I BELIEVE that my dog in the next room is still breathing. I would not KNOW it, unless I went to him and saw his chest rise, etc.

There are VERY FEW things in this world that we can say we know100% . If I said "I know my car is still in the garage" I'd feel pretty confident with that assumption. BUT, if I was ask to bet my child's life on that, I would very quickly reduce that KNOW to an "I BELIEVE my car is still in the garage.

Now, everyone seems to be getting this except Tom. He insist that he knows there is a god, there is proof of god and he has evidence to back it up. The only thing is, you haven't showed us your proof or evidence. I happen to believe there IS a god, but notice I said believe.

Please share your proof with me. Bible scripture does not do it because there is no proof that it is correct.

No, all Christians KNOW there is a God, only those that are unsaved or those that serve Satan wish to deny there is a God.

We know because we feel him, we hear him and we know him, just like I know the person living in the house down the street, he is just as real.

Proof, the world, the wonders of the universe that could not just happen without God doing it.

I could share with you many "proofs" but you have to find your own "proof". It will only be relevant to you. Belief in God requires "blind faith". It requires that faith & you must trust that He is really there. When you have a problem or a decision to make, tell God your concerns, put those concerns on his shoulders, let His will be done & then relax. You have given those concerns up to Him & the best decision for you will be made by God. You never really had control anyway. The proof for you will be when things start to become easier or better. It may not be the route you would have taken but when it actually works out better for you in the long run then you will understand that He is really there & cares for you. That will be your proof!

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

No, all Christians KNOW there is a God, only those that are unsaved or those that serve Satan wish to deny there is a God.

We know because we feel him, we hear him and we know him, just like I know the person living in the house down the street, he is just as real.

Proof, the world, the wonders of the universe that could not just happen without God doing it.

I don't deny God or worship satan. I believe God is real. I just would not be so arrogant as to say to someone, "YOU are unsaved and going to hell because you have a different belief." You know the person down the street because you have met him in the flesh, face to face.

Your belief (and mine) is based on faith. It is real to me but it is still a belief, not a fact. That was the point of my OP. Tom kept saying he KNOWS and has proof. What proof would convince a non believer? The wonders of the world is not proof. That is just biology. Come up with something that can't be argued. That is my challenge.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

I've spent much of today reading post about the word "know" vs the word belief.
I've always thought the word "know" was thrown around too loosely.

I agree about the use of the word "know". But to make knowing dependent on our senses leaves us with knowing nothing except, perhaps, the existence of our thinking ability.

Solipsism is very logical in saying that we "sense" a lot of things in our dreams even though they are not real. And too, our physical senses when awake sometimes deceive us. We really can't get past "believing" that we have a body which can sense a world beyond our thinking ability.

We do live by faith. The only difference between you and I as Christians and the unbelievers is that our faith is focused on God (as He has and is revealing Himself to us) as the real "reality".

We put our faith on His word above our physical senses.

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Originally Posted by bones252100

I could share with you many "proofs" but you have to find your own "proof". It will only be relevant to you. Belief in God requires "blind faith". It requires that faith & you must trust that He is really there. When you have a problem or a decision to make, tell God your concerns, put those concerns on his shoulders, let His will be done & then relax. You have given those concerns up to Him & the best decision for you will be made by God. You never really had control anyway. The proof for you will be when things start to become easier or better. It may not be the route you would have taken but when it actually works out better for you in the long run then you will understand that He is really there & cares for you. That will be your proof!

I never said I did not believe. The point is, I do believe but that does not make it a fact for everyone. It is not for me to shove my belief down the throats of people who believe differently. The audacity to say my way is the only way is wrong.

I do lift my concerns to my god. That is when I "Be still and know that I am God" . God is in my soul, not some white robed man floating around in the heavens. If I stop trying to control everything and give it to God, that is "being still", that is listening for Gods will.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

I don't deny God or worship satan. I believe God is real. I just would not be so arrogant as to say to someone, "YOU are unsaved and going to hell because you have a different belief."

You are mixing apples and oranges. If someone says "I know God is real," that doesn't disrespect the other person or mean he is going to hell. Those are two different things. I know God is real but what you know or believe has nothing to do with it.

The proof cannot be displayed nor given to anyone. Each person must learn it by experience. Our duties as believers is to live our lives as an example so non-believers will see that example & allow us to tell them how to find the proof of God's existence.

That is my point. It can not be PROVEN and I am really hoping to hear from TJ3 aka Tom. He is the one that kept repeating how he had evidence and proof. I am waiting on him to back it up.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

No, all Christians KNOW there is a God, only those that are unsaved or those that serve Satan wish to deny there is a God.

We know because we feel him, we hear him and we know him, just like I know the person living in the house down the street, he is just as real.

Proof, the world, the wonders of the universe that could not just happen without God doing it.

Please, tell me that I am usaved, that I serve Satan. Cast out of Christian dogma, I am saved.

Proof, the world, the wonders of the universe are not limited by the mind of man, it was created by something much wiser. There is a design so intricate and perfect there, we should admire what little of it we can perceive, not fight about it. The world of God is not even describeable to us, let alone written down in a book. The Bible is a very positive icon, but I can not limit my universe to it. I feel her, hear her and know her too, please don't attempt to obscure that with rules you subscribe to.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

I've spent much of today reading post about the word "know" vs the word belief.
I've always thought the word "know" was thrown around too loosely. For example. I BELIEVE that my dog in the next room is still breathing. I would not KNOW it, unless I went to him and saw his chest rise, etc.

And once you saw his chest rise, would you cease to believe it because you knew it?

To believe and to know share a common element. All we have to do is look at a definition:

4 know
be aware of the truth of something; have a belief or faith in something; regard as true beyond any doubt; "I know that I left the key on the table"; "Galileo knew that the earth moves around the sun"
Definition of know - WordReference.com Dictionary

In essence, to know is to believe without a shadow of a doubt.

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There are VERY FEW things in this world that we can say we know100% . If I said "I know my car is still in the garage" I'd feel pretty confident with that assumption. BUT, if I was ask to bet my child's life on that, I would very quickly reduce that KNOW to an "I BELIEVE my car is still in the garage.

I would say there are many things which we know 100%. I know I'm here. I know this desk is in front of me and this PC. I can't count the number of things in my immediate proximity which I am certain are here.

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Now, everyone seems to be getting this except Tom. He insist that he knows there is a god, there is proof of god and he has evidence to back it up.

Although Tom and I agree on few other things. This in one in which we agree wholeheartedly.

I also know that God exists, there is proof of His existence and that the evidence is even available to you.

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The only thing is, you haven't showed us your proof or evidence.

The proof is evident to me. But even objective evidence is challenged. Because the object is viewed differently by each subjective mind.

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I happen to believe there IS a god, but notice I said believe.

I would ask you then, to explain why you believe in God and perhaps I can begin from there to explain why I know that God exists.

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Please share your proof with me.

I'm fairly certain that the same proof you have which leads you to suspect that God exists is the same evidence which has convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt.

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Bible scripture does not do it because there is no proof that it is correct.

Scripture is one of the proofs of God's existence. We must remember that these are first hand, eyewitness written testimonies of God's existence.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by simoneaugie

Please, tell me that I am usaved, that I serve Satan. Cast out of Christian dogma, I am saved.

Proof, the world, the wonders of the universe are not limited by the mind of man, it was created by something much wiser. There is a design so intricate and perfect there, we should admire what little of it we can perceive, not fight about it. The world of God is not even describeable to us, let alone written down in a book. The Bible is a very positive icon, but I can not limit my universe to it. I feel her, hear her and know her too, please don't attempt to obscure that with with rules you subscribe to.

Which rules do you speak of, the Ten Commandments?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

And once you saw his chest rise, would you cease to believe it because you knew it?
No, I would more than just believe it, I'd know it for sure. It is a step further than believe.
To believe is to assume. To know is to have solid evidence or absolute proof.

I believe my old school is still standing, I wouldn't know it unless I drove over there and looked at it. Having someone tell me that it is still standing is not absolute proof. That is assuming they are telling me truth. This sounds petty I know, but it shows us how many things we think we know, but really just assume because the odds in in favor of it.

To believe and to know share a common element. All we have to do is look at a definition:

4 know
be aware of the truth of something; have a belief or faith in something; regard as true beyond any doubt; "I know that I left the key on the table"; "Galileo knew that the earth moves around the sun"
Definition of know - WordReference.com Dictionary

In essence, to know is to believe without a shadow of a doubt.

Correct, without a SHADOW of a doubt

I would say there are many things which we know 100%. I know I'm here. I know this desk is in front of me and this pc. I can't count the number of things in my immediate proximity which I am certain are here.

Although Tom and I agree on few other things. This in one in which we agree wholeheartedly.

I also know that God exists, there is proof of His existence and that the evidence is even available to you.

What is this proof? What is this evidence? I can't get this from you or Tom. I "feel" like there is most likely a higher power because my conscience has conversations with me in my head. I believe that is God speaking to me. But that's just me. I can't tell someone else that the existence of god is a fact. There is no way to prove it. You just choose to believe or not.

The proof is evident to me. But even objective evidence is challenged. Because the object is viewed differently by each subjective mind.

Again what is your proof? What if this were a court of law? Do you just have "circumstantial evidence?" I am not trying to "disprove" God. I hope and pray and believe there is a god, but I have yet to hear something concrete enough to go around telling others that they are wrong if they don't believe.

I would ask you then, to explain why you believe in God and perhaps I can begin from there to explain why I know that God exists.

]I believe mostly because I want to. I would hate to think I am out here on this limb called life all by myself.

I'm fairly certain that the same proof you have which leads you to suspect that God exists is the same evidence which has convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Scripture is one of the proofs of God's existence. We must remember that these are first hand, eyewitness written testimonies of God's existence.

I do not believe this is any kind of proof. Too much time has gone by, been through too many translations, been left up to too many interpretations, and the variables are too many. Just because someone wrote it doesn't mean they got it right. You just assume they did.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I can't disprove him, but I can't prove him either. I just want to know what those who say they have proof to spell it out with something concrete.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

I can't disprove him, but I can't prove him either. I just want to know what those who say they have proof to spell it out with something concrete.

There's an old saying, "for some no proof is necessary, for others no proof is enough".

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No, I would more than just believe it, I'd know it for sure. It is a step further than believe. To believe is to assume. To know is to have solid evidence or absolute proof.

Good, you would not cease to believe it, but would believe it with more certainty. With absolute certainty.

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I believe my old school is still standing, I wouldn't know it unless I drove over there and looked at it.

And would you cease to believe it as soon as it was out of sight again?

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Having someone tell me that it is still standing is not absolute proof. That is assuming they are telling me truth. This sounds petty I know, but it shows us how many things we think we know, but really just assume because the odds in in favor of it.

You are trying to make a point. Which I understand. But I'm trying to tell you, which I haven't yet a chance to do so, that if it is true that you don't know that God exists, you really don't believe.

The demons believe. They know that God exists. But they don't BELIEVE IN God. And there is a difference between believing that God exists and believing in God.

Believing in God means that we assume His Goodness and Love towards us. We can't believe in His Goodness and Love if we aren't certain that He exists. Can we?

Do you believe that God loves you? How can you if you aren't even certain of His existence?

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Correct, without a SHADOW of a doubt

Glad we agree. Therefore, those who believe that God exists can know that God exists. TJ and I fall in that group. I hope you will as well.

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What is this proof? What is this evidence? I can't get this from you or Tom. I "feel" like there is most likely a higher power because my conscience has conversations with me in my head.

That's one. Even when I was an atheist, I found myself having these sorts of conversations.

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I believe that is God speaking to me. But that's just me. I can't tell someone else that the existence of god is a fact. There is no way to prove it. You just choose to believe or not.

Great! I advise that you test every spirit. For me, testing would require making certain that the spirit is teaching me in accordance to the Church or at the very least is not saying anything against the Church.

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Again what is your proof? What if this were a court of law? Do you just have "circumstantial evidence?" I am not trying to "disprove" God.

Great! I'm glad you mentioned a court of law.

1. The Scriptures are not circumstantial evidence. They are eyewitness testimonies. And they hold up in court.
2. Historical evidence confirming the Scriptures also holds up in court.

For me however, my belief in God came like a bolt of lightning. One moment I didn't believe, the next I couldn't understand why I had not believed.

It was after my wife conceived our first child. I was on cloud nine. One of the things which came to my mind is, "How? What did I do?" I hadn't done anything. I mean, the experience was enjoyable. But certainly, something else had happened which was beyond my control.

From that moment, I looked at everything differently. It was as though I could see the hand of God in my life. I looked at the common, ordinary things in my life, a blade of grass, a leaf in a tree and I could see that only God could be responsible for that. No doubt in my mind since then.

That's my proof. I keep telling as many people as will listen. But few understand.

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I hope and pray and believe there is a god, but I have yet to hear something concrete enough to go around telling others that they are wrong if they don't believe.

Remember this:
2 Kings 6:17
And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

I pray that the Lord may open your eyes to see His Hand in your life and you may be certain of His existence.

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I believe mostly because I want to. I would hate to think I am out here on this limb called life all by myself.

No problem. Wanting God, desiring God and His Love is the right reason to believe.

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I do not believe this is any kind of proof. Too much time has gone by, been through too many translations, been left up to too many interpretations, and the variables are too many. Just because someone wrote it doesn't mean they got it right. You just assume they did.

My faith in God teaches me to have faith in people. And our system of Magisterium, Tradition and Scripture ensures that interpretations, translations and other variables are always checked and triple checked back to the Source.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Which rules do you speak of, the Ten Commandments?

I was not speaking of the Ten Commandments. Rules that limit us, keep us from God-like action and interpersonal caring are in the way, in my opinion. You are free to disagree. The point is, that as a non-Christians, when we disagree you tend to get defensive.

The Truth that is believed or known to Christians, and not believed or known by non-Christians causes apparent human failure. Christians have failed in their word-spreading and recruitment. Non-Christians are lost, serve Satan, are going to a Christian hell.

I don't think any of us are failures, except when we choose hate, superiority and derision over love, tolerance and acceptance. Making the hateful choice is forgivable, always. Christians I've met, spoken and lived with, then walked away from can't seem to understand this point of view. Can you?

The universe had to start somewhere and so far scientists have not been able to create matter out of nothing. Jesus's body could not be found. 500 people saw him rise and most if not all were crucified for it from what I can remember.

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Originally Posted by ingrid119

The universe had to start somewhere and so far scientists have not been able to create matter out of nothing. Jesus's body could not be found. 500 people saw him rise and most if not all were crucified for it from what I can remember.

I'm not following.:confused: People who saw him rise were crucified? And how does this connect to the OP?

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Originally Posted by simoneaugie

I was not speaking of the Ten Commandments. Rules that limit us, keep us from God-like action and interpersonal caring are in the way, in my opinion.

Which rules are those?

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You are free to disagree. The point is, that as a non-Christians, when we disagree you tend to get defensive.

I tend to see it the other way around. When we disagree with non-Christians, they seem to get defensive.

Maybe we're biased.

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The Truth that is believed or known to Christians, and not believed or known by non-Christians causes apparent human failure. Christians have failed in their word-spreading and recruitment. Non-Christians are lost, serve Satan, are going to a Christian hell.

Has someone on this forum said that?

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I don't think any of us are failures, except when we choose hate, superiority and derision over love, tolerance and acceptance. Making the hateful choice is forgivable, always. Christians I've met, spoken and lived with, then walked away from can't seem to understand this point of view. Can you?

That depends on what you mean. Sometimes people think that love means tolerating every evil intention they have in their heart. I don't see it that way. There are things which are intrinsically evil.

Homosexuality for instance. It is intrinsically evil. Yet many claim that those who participate in that sin are showing "love".

So what do you mean? Do you mean that to show "love" I must tolerate every sin which people consider good?

Sincerely,

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Originally Posted by cozyk

I'm not following.:confused: People who saw him rise were crucified? And how does this connect to the OP?

You asked for specific proof of God's existence. I figured that you wanted facts instead of "we feel him". What I mean by the people who saw him rise is that when Jesus actually rise to heaven there were 500 documented accounts of seeing him do so and all (or most) of them were nailed to crosses to die.

Quote: De Maria
Homosexuality for instance. It is intrinsically evil. Yet many claim that those who participate in that sin are showing "love".

So what do you mean? Do you mean that to show "love" I must tolerate every sin which people consider good?

Yes, love your neighbor can only be taken as exactly what it directs. Does it have a different meaning if you neighbor is a sex offender or a convicted murderer, or simply an enemy? My next door neighbor is a Christian and a homosexual. Should I be intolerant of the fact that he is not me at the moment?

You asked me what rules I was referring to, right after I told you what they were. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Here are the rules in a linear and negative format:

1. Be intolerant and judgemental of others who you feel are not following the rules you have set for yourself.

2. Outline those characteristics and personal qualities that you deem to be intrinsically evil. Refuse to love and verbally condemn those who exibit those characteristics.

3. Start murderous wars or inquisitions to show how strong and determined you are to dominate and control. Your religion demands it.

Yes, if someone killed me, they would be making a choice. The choice is forgivable, all of our actions are, yours and mine. If you call a thing evil or intolerable, you're calling God that. He created the heavens and the earth and all living creatures. To separate the evil ones out is to remove part of that which can't be separated from itself, God.

This I both believe and know. If you do not agree, I tolerate our differences, agree to disagree. You do not.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

No, all Christians KNOW there is a God, only those that are unsaved or those that serve Satan wish to deny there is a God.

We know because we feel him, we hear him and we know him, just like I know the person living in the house down the street, he is just as real.

Proof, the world, the wonders of the universe that could not just happen without God doing it.

Im a christian as well. Well kind of.

And you don't know. You believe, you don't know.

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Originally Posted by simoneaugie

Yes, love your neighbor can only be taken as exactly what it directs.

You have a different interpretation of love than we. Love doesn't mean "tolerate". Love means to admonish those who are going down the road of perdition so that they may also save their souls.

Ezekiel 3:18
When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

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Does it have a different meaning if you neighbor is a sex offender or a convicted murderer, or simply an enemy?

Yes, it does. We are not to be party to evil:

1 Corinthians 5 1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

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My next door neighbor is a Christian and a homosexual.

He is either a Christian and a FORMER homosexual or a homosexual. If he is a practicing homosexual, he may profess to be Christian, but he isn't.

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Should I be intolerant of the fact that he is not me at the moment?

You can do what you want, I will follow Christ.

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You asked me what rules I was referring to, right after I told you what they were. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Here are the rules in a linear and negative format:

1. Be intolerant and judgemental of others who you feel are not following the rules you have set for yourself.

As Christians we follow the law of God. The rules we set for ourselves are all based on the Law of God.

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2. Outline those characteristics and personal qualities that you deem to be intrinsically evil. Refuse to love and verbally condemn those who exibit those characteristics.

That's how you take it. We see it as warning them of their error. If you had a friend driving a road that headed over a cliff, would you simply let him drive to his doom?

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3. Start murderous wars or inquisitions to show how strong and determined you are to dominate and control. Your religion demands it.

Don't believe the hype. The murderous wars were begun by enemies of Christ.

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Yes, if someone killed me, they would be making a choice. The choice is forgivable, all of our actions are, yours and mine. If you call a thing evil or intolerable, you're calling God that. He created the heavens and the earth and all living creatures. To separate the evil ones out is to remove part of that which can't be separated from itself, God.

See the Scripture above, 1 Cor 5, which instructs us to separate ourselves from those who persist in sin after they've been warned to stop their evil behaviour.

Essentially, you are telling us to disobey God. But obeying God is how we demonstrate our love for Him.
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And if we don't obey God, we won't inherit His Kingdom:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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This I both believe and know. If you do not agree, I tolerate our differences, agree to disagree. You do not.

Sure I do. But that doesn't mean we have to hang out together. You are free to believe whatever you like. But your beliefs will lead you down the road of perdition. I don't intend to go down that road.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[QUOTE=De Maria;1449305]You have a different interpretation of love than we. Love doesn't mean "tolerate". Love means to admonish those who are going down the road of perdition so that they may also save their souls.

Different interpretation??? That is the problem with following the words of the bible. It is cram packed full of words left to interpretation. And that's just us. Previous translators and interpreters have also used THEIR idea of what God was really trying to say.

1 Corinthians 5 1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

All this scripture does nothing but jumble my brain. Also, I believe it has done more damage than good since some people interpret it to support their agenda and then bang people over the head with it. All in the name of love by the way.

He is either a Christian and a FORMER homosexual or a homosexual. If he is a practicing homosexual, he may profess to be Christian, but he isn't.

NOT How can love, caring, supporting, dedicating your life to another person ever be called wrong. We don't know what causes a person to be a homosexual. Born that way? Who knows, but don't you think that IF they had their "druthers" they would choose the more accepted, much smoother road to go down than the one that is ridden with people like you and others who condemn them? Some homosexuals lose their families, jobs, friends, because of who they love. That is a crying shame. It is already a hardship for gays that were wired this way for whatever reason. I think it behooves us as "christians" to be loving and accepting of them.

You can do what you want, I will follow Christ

Ask yourself, What would Jesus do? Remember those bracelets? WWJD, I loved them? I don't believe a loving god would turn his back on his children.

As Christians we follow the law of God. The rules we set for ourselves are all based on the Law of God.

That's how you take it. We see it as warning them of their error. If you had a friend driving a road that headed over a cliff, would you simply let him drive to his doom?

Good point. I really do believe you mean well. I just believe God is bigger than to be so unforgiving of people who are sharing their life, making their home, loving, respecting, and caring for their partner, and just happen to be the same sex.

Anytime two people are doing this is a good thing. Whether they are male/female or same sex.
Anytime two people promised to do this, but have not lived up to their promises and made a mockery of their vows is a bad thing. Whether they are male/female or same sex. I think God has a MUCH bigger concern with this scenario.

This is just it, God is a jealous god, he hates sin, he must punish sin, he did love mankind more than anything, and that is why he sent Jesus to be a way to save us from the punishment that we deserve.

The trouble with many is they will not accept and admit that some of their actions are wrong and a sin.

a person who steals know it is wrong, and would confess and try to stop stealing when they become a christian. They may fail sometimes, but they know it is wrong when they do it. The person who does not know it is wrong, has to be convicted by the Holy Spirit in their heart to know it is wrong before they can repent.

So it is with all of the sins, until the sinner will admit their sin and confess it, and repent, there is no forgiveness for the sin.
Without being forgiven and repentance, there is no salvation.

So it is true, that one is not really a Christian, if they will not admit their sin and try and turn from their sin.

The trouble with many is they will not accept and admit that some of their actions are wrong and a sin.

Personally, I have no problem recognizing sin, knowing when I'm doing it, and changing my ways.
Maybe gays are not admitting it is a sin because they don't believe they are sinning. I don't think they are. God made them the way they are. This is not a matter of stealing, killing, being unkind, or anything else that is a choice. This is an innate trait like being born with brown eyes, or possessing a certain talent.

a person who steals know it is wrong, and would confess and try to stop stealing when they become a christian. They may fail sometimes, but they know it is wrong when they do it. The person who does not know it is wrong, has to be convicted by the Holy Spirit in their heart to know it is wrong before they can repent.

Christians do not corner the market on morality. It doesn't take being a christian to know what is right and what is wrong.. Many christians think atheist behave with evil intent. Not so. They can be just as good or better than any self proclaimed christian.

So it is with all of the sins, until the sinner will admit their sin and confess it, and repent, there is no forgiveness for the sin.
Without being forgiven and repentance, there is no salvation.

So it is true, that one is not really a Christian, if they will not admit their sin and try and turn from their sin.

This is what makes me move away from my christian up bringing.
Christians have taken a book that is filled with contradictions, interpretations, translations, a god that supports slavery, killing, treating women as lesser humans and take it as factual black and white. No gray area at all. I don't get the reasoning there. General guide book, okay. The literal truth, I don't think so . It's been through too many human fallible hands. But, that is just me.

__________________

I've been thinking about this thread for a couple of days now and still feel a bit uncertain about entering into it, mostly because I have sympathies with both sides of the debate. The attempt to prove God's existence is, of course, very old indeed. Typically, these attempts come in two forms: empirical proofs (e.g. Aguinas's famous--or infamous--Five Ways) and a priori (e.g. Anselm's brilliant Ontological Argument--which has probably accounted for few if any conversions). The trend in the discussion so far has been to look for empirical proof for God's existence, and here an awful lot turns on one's notion of what counts as *evidence*. To borrow Russell's famous example: If I put out a saucer of milk and come back later to find the milk gone, this may count as evidence that there's a cat in the house because that's the best explanation for the disappearance of the milk (I know, giving cats milk is a bad idea--I'm not sure Russell knew that). This is typically called inference to the best explanation: Given the facts as we have them, the best explanation is... People who adduce the complexity of the universe as proof of God's existence often avail themselves--implicitly or explicitly--of inference to the best explanation.

Of course, there is no guarantee that our best explanation is the right explanation. Science depends upon this, for instance: The progress of science depends upon the defeasibility of its claims, the fact that the best explanations of today may be superceded by the best explanations of tomorrow. And so science advances. This means, however, that any best explanation that we have available to us at any given time is only probabilistic, not apodictically certain. And this leads some to crave an a priori proof, one that isn't so contingent upon our best, but probabilistic and so defeasible, explanatory practices.

As someone who was an atheist for a good many years, I must say that I don't think I was just stupid to find proofs for God's existence uncompelling. And though I am not now an atheist, I find atheism perfectly reasonable: The mere fact that we do not now have a complete science, one that explains the creation of the universe, etc. does not by any means prove the existence of God.

The grounds for belief in God's existence are, I think, different from the grounds for belief that there is a cat in the house: The two have evidentiary bases that are different in kind. To ask for justification of the belief in God's existence is a bit more like asking someone to justify their reasons for loving the things they do. There are reasons there, of a sort, but they're not the kinds of reasons that, once offered, are necessarily going to compel another to love the same things.

I also find very distasteful the quickness with which many Christians are disposed to pass judgment. At the same time, though, De Maria brings up a point which is important, and salutary in these contexts: Friendship comes with obligations, responsibilities, and among these is the duty to tell your friend when he's out of line. If I have a friend who is abusing heroin, I am not being a good friend to him if I say nothing; so too if I have a friend who is cheating on his wife. If I truly care about someone, then I have an obligation to try to help him to be a better person, even if I am not one myself (i.e. even if I'm not better than him). Mutual correction is important in friendship. A friendship where the parties aren't concerned about each other's evolution into better versions of themselves is a shallow friendship indeed.

That said, I am constantly amazed by how many Christians will speak out against homosexuality because it is sinful, while remaining tolerant of avarice, which is also a sin. It's not okay to be in a same-sex relationship, but it is okay to busy oneself with the acqisition of wealth and the perquisites that come with it. It isn't okay to be in a same-sex relationship, but it is okay to exploit the labor of others. Etc. Christ said a whole lot more about the sinfulness of avarice and acquisitiveness than about homosexuality, after all. And the social ills that derive from the former far outweigh any reasonable case that can be made regarding the latter.

Akoue,
Thanks for taking the time to address this. Gives us all something to ponder. You made some good points. ( Even if I did have to look up some of the big words!):D:D:D:D:D

I don't know if this is the "proof" you seek:

I think it is in the lives of those that believe.
I work in the medical field, so it is unfortunantly all to common to treat people that have or had problems secondary to some addiction. Now some in recovery manage to do it "on their own" but the majority that I have seen attribute their recovery to God. That is their proof. Some of the roughest looking characters I've met, willingly and often joyfully give credit to the Lord. The other second hand proof that I see is harder to intuitively fathom : in those that are suffering. Suffering from the loss of a loved one, and though grieving still believe and trust in God's goodness. In those that are suffering and dying due to a physical ailment yet at are at peace in the knowledge of there place in eternity, knowing and believing in God despite the current situation they're in.

G&P

Recently I read a book written by Francis S. Collins which was a scientist presents of evidence for belief. Book Title: The Language of God.

The author follows much of C.S. Lewis work, and tends to find his inspiration from Lewis. His question is pointed to, whether the mind of free will in choice does wish for, or desire something such as a good job, or a good wife? The answer being yes we know that we think with our mind and heart. Thus it is possible that this inner desire is the conscience of our belief knowing that this can be fulfilled. Creatures are not born with desire unless satisfaction for the desire exists. This conscience is present and can be felt as an experience of longing which can be more then wishful fulfillment, but rather a pointer towards something beyond us.

He too uses the idea of selfless heart, can it be the conscience of our connection with what is known as faith/God. This example of course would show no scientic proof of the worldwide material factor proven in evidence, yet he concluded that everyone does own some form of selfless conscience in a spiritual dimension known as moral law.

The challenge is to read this book and see what the outcome of views would be thereafter.

Personally I find the idea is one of conscience love for what is right over wrong.. Good over bad... as well as desire..

God tells us in scripture that Love holds the highest level in regards of wisdom. God loves us, and wants our love in return. God being perfect holds no tolerance to less then what he gives in his law. And God fights against the opposite which is satan, and what satan intends to achieve of his pridefulness. Thank goodness for The Grace of God..

I saw a tombstone in a television show, a tombstone from long ago. The words on the stone were:

"Here lies_____________
in hope of a
glorious resurrection"

This really captures the nature of Christianity and their God. I think it is beautifully expressed.

Religion is what some folks chose to believe. Religions use holy scriptures, not textbooks, to tell their story, and Christian new testament books have been heavily edited, as well as some old testament stories such as Creation.

Enjoy Belief. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozyk

Different interpretation??? That is the problem with following the words of the bible. It is cram packed full of words left to interpretation. And that's just us. Previous translators and interpreters have also used THEIR idea of what God was really trying to say.

What happened to the tolerant loving person you claim to be?

I am a Catholic and I follow the interpretation of the Church. That interpretation has been the same for the past 2000 years. And for the Old Testament the same for the past 7000 years at least.

The problem is that you don't like that interpretation and you want us to change it to fit your beliefs.

Quote:

All this scripture does nothing but jumble my brain. Also, I believe it has done more damage than good since some people interpret it to support their agenda and then bang people over the head with it. All in the name of love by the way.

Lol :)

Still you not tolerating my belief. The Church has interpreted the Scriptures the same since the Scriptures were written. In fact, the Church wrote the NT so they very well know what it means and explain it.

Quote:

NOT How can love, caring, supporting, dedicating your life to another person ever be called wrong.

When it evolves into deviant, unnatural behavior which is not the will of God.

Quote:

We don't know what causes a person to be a homosexual.

It doesn't matter what causes it. God gave us a will and a conscience so that we would fight sin and control our nature.

Quote:

Born that way?

All men are born with a fallen nature. Adulterers and fornicators have to resist the very same lustful impulses.

Quote:

Who knows, but don't you think that IF they had their "druthers" they would choose the more accepted, much smoother road to go down than the one that is ridden with people like you and others who condemn them?

The road to perdition? Everyone finds that road easier. The one that requires a little bit of will power is the one that everyone finds a little more difficult. But in my opinion, it is worth every bit of effort to travel down that road.

Quote:

Some homosexuals lose their families, jobs, friends, because of who they love.

Because of their lust. Penalties are a part of every sin.

Quote:

That is a crying shame. It is already a hardship for gays that were wired this way for whatever reason. I think it behooves us

Us?

Quote:

as "christians" to be loving and accepting of them.

It behooves us as Christians to be honest about what is sin and what is life. And to teach them how to get on the road to life.

It behooves us as Christians to avoid those who prefer to revel in their sin.

Quote:

Ask yourself, What would Jesus do? Remember those bracelets? WWJD, I loved them? I don't believe a loving god would turn his back on his children.

He hasn't. That is why He made His Church. So when they get ready to come back to Him, they have a home to return to. But if they choose their sin over His Love, then they have condemned themselves.

Quote:

Good point. I really do believe you mean well. I just believe God is bigger than to be so unforgiving of people who are sharing their life, making their home, loving, respecting, and caring for their partner, and just happen to be the same sex.

Leviticus 18:22
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

Quote:

Anytime two people are doing this is a good thing. Whether they are male/female or same sex.
Anytime two people promised to do this, but have not lived up to their promises and made a mockery of their vows is a bad thing. Whether they are male/female or same sex. I think God has a MUCH bigger concern with this scenario.

Because you don't understand the Scriptures nor the power of God:

God said:
Matthew 19 5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife,

Cleave to his wife, not boyfriend, not male lover. But wife. A woman.

Quote:

and they two shall be in one flesh.

And they shall bear a child. That is the one flesh in which they are one. The child born of that union is the two made one. Every child is a living symbol of a man's love for his wife and the wife's love for her husband.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

....That said, I am constantly amazed by how many Christians will speak out against homosexuality because it is sinful, while remaining tolerant of avarice, which is also a sin. It's not okay to be in a same-sex relationship, but it is okay to busy oneself with the acqisition of wealth and the perquisites that come with it. It isn't okay to be in a same-sex relationship, but it is okay to exploit the labor of others. Etc. Christ said a whole lot more about the sinfulness of avarice and acquisitiveness than about homosexuality, after all. And the social ills that derive from the former far outweigh any reasonable case that can be made regarding the latter.

The key is that avarice is not always a mortal sin. Those forms of avarice which are mortal sins are railed against as much or more than homosexuality. Actually, even those which aren't. Even perceived avarice gets a strong negative response throughout the world. What happens when the price of gas goes up at the pump?

Whereas homosexuality is always a mortal sin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Leviticus 18:22
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

the Bible says that a man shall not lie with another man. That is true. But it also says, in the same book, that adultery is an abomination. And the just punishment for this sin is execution. So, who will execute the first adulterer? Please step on up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

....As someone who was an athiest for a good many years,

You were an atheist? So was I. Perhaps we can hear your testimony one day?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

the Bible says that a man shall not lie with another man. That is true. But it also says, in the same exact book, that adultery is an abomination. And the just punishment for this sin is execution. So, who will execute the first adulterer? Please step on up.

The Catholic Church teaches that law has been fulfilled. The Law of Christ tells us that adulterers condemn themselves by killing their soul in mortal sin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

The Catholic Church teaches that law has been fulfilled. The Law of Christ tells us that adulterers condemn themselves by killing their soul in mortal sin.

What is the Law of Christ? Where is it written?

There's no hope of forgiveness and heaven for adulterers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What is the Law of Christ?

The Law of Christ is the Law of Love.
Galatians 6:2
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

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Where is it written?

In our hearts and in our minds and in the Church and in Scripture and Tradition.

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There's no hope of forgiveness and heaven for adulterers?

If they repent, yes. Not if they don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

It behooves us as Christians to be honest about what is sin and what is life. And to teach them how to get on the road to life.

It has nothing to do with teaching them something. Homosexuality is not taught or extinguished. Their brains are wired differently. No one wakes up one morning and says, "Yo, it's the first of the month. I'm going to be gay this month. Woo woo!"

Quote:

Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

Lev. 19:27 says (World English Bible), "You shall not cut the hair on the sides of your heads, neither shall you clip off the edge of your beard." I trust your forelocks and beard have never been trimmed, De Maria.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

It has nothing to do with teaching them something. Homosexuality is not taught or extinguished. Their brains are wired differently. No one wakes up one morning and says, "Yo, it's the first of the month. I'm going to be gay this month. Woo woo!"

Lev. 19:27 says (World English Bible), "You shall not cut the hair on the sides of your heads, neither shall you clip off the edge of your beard." I trust your forelocks and beard have never been trimmed, De Maria.

Hey, why'd you have to bring forelocks into this? Come on, keep it PG people!

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