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Rapture, a word coined many years after Jesus spoke about his return. This we all seem to agree on.
So the question of the day,
Do you believe in Pre-tribulation Rapture,
Post tribulation rapture
Or does it really matter to you when God chooses to send Jesus for his church?
No matter. Be ready today and it will not matter.
Is the Rapture when all of God's followers will be brought to Heaven so they are not on earth when the battle between god and the devil starts? I forget it's been a looooong time since religion class.
To many the "rapture" is the point in history where Jesus comes in the clouds to take his church, the restraining force here on earth, away. At that time satin is free to rein here on earth. In laymen's terms this is the tribulation period. At the end of the tribulation Jesus and all the saints returns to earth for the second time in history for the great battle of armageddon. At this time the false profit and all his cohorts are cast into the lake of fire. Satin is bound for a thousand years.Quote:
Originally Posted by spitvenom
I am a Pan-millenialist.
That is; I believe it will all Pan out in the end... because God is in charge and all of our theories and conjectures will not change God's immutable will in this matter. All we are accomplishing by conjecture is to become angry with each other for having different opinions about something God has chosen not to reveal precisely .
1 Cor 4:6
6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written."
NIV
I believe in the pre trib rapture and I think it matters very much!!
There are so many opinions on forms of "millenium"(a 1,000 years, 7 years, etc) and when the tribulation started, will start, will end, that I certainly don't want to argue the matter. We just don't know any more about that than we know the era or day when God will end this world.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
The people of God ARE in tribulation right now. We are constantly being attacked. The attacks seem bolder now that we are in a "post-Christian" era in this country.
John 16:32-33
32 The hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, every man to his home, and will leave me alone; yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me. 33 I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
RSV
Acts 14:22
22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.
RSV
2 Cor 1:3-4
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation , that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2 Thess 1:4
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
KJV
The expectation of many is that there will be a greater "tribulation" than we are suffering now. But no matter what that is, we, the elect, will be sustained by God.
As far as "rapture"(not a word used in the Bible) is concerned, the rising of all the saints together to meet in the air is on one particular day. And that Day will be the end of the present heaven and earth:
Matt 24:30-31
30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
NIV
1 Cor 15:50-54
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet . For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
NIV
1 Thess 4:13-18
13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
NIV
2 Peter 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
NIV
These words God gave to us not so that we would be afraid, but as they say; that we might be comforted by the assurance of God's love and power to keep us strong in our faith. So we are encouraged to stay close to Him that our faith in Him will not wane.
If the Lord's return is imminent, then only the pre-trib rapture could be true.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
If the rapture takes place at the mid-point of the tribulation than Jesus cannot return for at least another 3 1/2 years.
If the rapture takes place at the end of the tribulation than Jesus cannot return for at least another 7 years.
Does it matter? Absolutely. The eternal promises given to Israel are made null and void if it is the church going through the tribulation period.
450donn,
I do not believe in the rapture as it is taught in the last days series of books.
I believe that Jesus will return but once only and all the world will be aware of it when it happens via world wide media coverage.
I do believe we are now in the midst of the tribulation period which began during World War I.
We are now in the tribulation period of the Church.
It is fragmenting more rapidly than ever before with many denominations having serious problems while at the same time more people are leaving the church and becoming secular.
Note that many counties which were once very Religious are now becoming more and more secular.
Believe in God is being attacked my many governments and courts.
I pray for world wide peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
I accept the pre-trib idea of the rapture. Paul gives us more information on it than anyone else.
II Th 2:7-8
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(KJV)
This tells us that The Anti-Christ cannot be revealed until "he" that hinders the Anti-Christ be taken out of the way.
A lot hinges on who this "he" of verse 7 is.
I believe this "he" is the Church.
The true Church is portrayed as the "body of Christ". What has been going on ever since that day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was sent to the Church has been a spiritual war. While the Church has never been in the majority numerically, it has been a spiritual influence that has had its effect on civilizations, and is still holding back the full impact of the forces of evil at the present time.
Prayer does work, when used.
Galveston1,
I think that your interpretation of "he" in that verse is a vast stretch.
Taking the Church (which will prevail even against the gates of hell) out of the way to reveal the wicked dose not make sense.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I believe if there is a rapture as we understand it with Jesus coming in the clouds is will not be pre trib. I believe many Christians are being lead to believe pre trib so they do not prepare for the end times because they will be magically removed before any real unendurable hardships happen to them.
I believe that when God says in Revelations about his people having a seal in the end times it will mean that we are protected and given special abilities to withstand the tribulation just as Daniel in the lions den and Shadrac, Meshak and Abendigo in the fiery furnace.
Christians now adays want an easy gospel and the Bible never promises that. It talks about martyr's crowns and warriors.
We have become lazy and materialistic to the point we are the foolish virgins the Bible warns about.
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
And five of them were wise, and five were foolish
They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Also many people deceive themselves by saying we can not know when the end is near because of the last line but the Bible DOES say we WILL know the season and I believe we are very close to the tribulation, even to the point of already being in the very beginning of it.
N0help4u, Veru interesting observations you have.
But...
I still believe the bibles says that there will be but ONE return of Jesus Christ.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Yes I believe Jesus will return but I don't think it will be quite what we expect or when we expect ---especially not the pre trib way.
N0help4u,
I suspect that you are right that Jesus' return may not be what we expect.
Fred
That has been a verrrrrry long 7 years, Fred!Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Fred,
How could the tribuation period start back during World War I? Israel was not even a Nation. There is so much confusion on this topic. I am amazed!
classyT
It is just what I think because the "war to end all wars" was a terrible tribulation for the world.
Of Course WWII killed far more people and very brutally so.
They MAY not have been a part of the biblical tribulations for they sure enouph were tribulations.
I also believe that numbers mentioned in the bible are very often symbolic.
1000 means a lot, 5000 means a great many, 7 means a few; less than 1000.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Yeah true the Bible does say that there will be false prophets, anti christs and many end time things before the actual end so you do have a good point there.
There have been many "tribulations", but only one called "The Tribulation", which is the term that you use in your last message.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I have found that history shows the Bible to be quite accurate in the timeframes prophecied.Quote:
I also believe that numbers mentioned in the bible are very often symbolic.
1000 means a lot, 5000 means a great many, 7 means a few; less than 1000.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
N0help4u,
Thanks,
Fred
Fred, if the "he" in 2 Thes is not the church, restraining the full release of evil in the earth, then who or what do you think that restraining person is?
As far as tribulation, Christians have had tribulation from the very first, staring with Steven. This is entirely different from the Great Tribulation which has a definite time frame.
Yes, Jesus will return only one time. He will not come to the earth to call His Church.
There will be multitudes saved during the Great Tribulation, and they are the tribulation saints.
It really amazes me how many interpretations of the Word of God there are? The end of this age is clearly marked my the Jewish return to their home land (1948). The signs are everywhere, one man can speak and instantly be heard around the world, atomic bomb that will incinerate a person before they can feel any pain. The gospel is being heard around the world. We are clearly in the last days. The question remains, do You believe that we ( the church of Christ) will be taken away and this will signal the beginning of the 7 years tribulation or do you believe that the church will live through it?
Personally, the rapture (snatching up of the church) will signal the beginning of the end. That satan will be loosed to rein for 7 years. The actual tribulation period will begin when the antichrist makes the covenant with Isreal for peace in the land. But half way through 93-1/2 years) he breaks the promise and that is when God releases the apoloclips as revealed in Revelations. Am I right or wrong and why?
I believe we will live through it and if there is a pretrib rapture it will be the Christians that have been really living it and have their lives right.
The seven years will begin when the conformation of the covenant is signed. Bush wanted to be the one to sign it before he left office but so far he hasn't.
This is where I have to disagree. Whether we are living our lives right or not, I don't that that would make a difference on whether we partake in the rapture. All of us are sinner whose only righteousness is that imputed by Christ for thopse who have received him as Saviour.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Galviston1,
Read the whole passage. The 'he" is definitely not the Church...
2 Thessalonians 2
From the New Jerusalem Bible
The coming of the Lord and the prelude to it
1. About the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, brothers, and our being gathered to him:
2. please do not be too easily thrown into confusion or alarmed by any manifestation of the Spirit or any statement or any letter claiming to come from us, suggesting that the Day of the Lord has already arrived.
3. Never let anyone deceive you in any way.
It cannot happen until the Great Revolt has taken place and there has appeared the wicked One, the lost One,
4. the Enemy, who raises himself above every so-called God or object of worship to enthrone himself in God's sanctuary and flaunts the claim that he is God.
5. Surely you remember my telling you about this when I was with you?
6. And you know, too, what is still holding him back from appearing before his appointed time.
7. The mystery of wickedness is already at work, but let him who is restraining it once be removed,
8. and the wicked One will appear openly. The Lord will destroy him with the breath of his mouth and will annihilate him with his glorious appearance at his coming.
9. But the coming of the wicked One will be marked by Satan being at work in all kinds of counterfeit miracles and signs and wonders,
10. And every wicked deception aimed at those who are on the way to destruction because they would not accept the love of the truth and so be saved.
11. And therefore God sends on them a power that deludes people so that they believe what is false,
12. And so that those who do not believe the truth and take their pleasure in wickedness may all be condemned.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Even in the version you quote, Fred, there is still a restraining force. I believe it is the Church, but you still haven't told us what you think he is.
You must have some idea of your own about it or you would not disagree with me. Right?
The Bible does differentiate between Christians that live a Christian life and it says God will spew lukewarm Christians out. It does talk about Christians that he even will say depart I never knew you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
If they are neither hot nor cold, what makes you think that they are Christians?Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
If He never knew them, then they were NOT Christians.Quote:
It does talk about Christians that he even will say depart I never knew you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
True but many believe they are and from that perspective many will be left and will have to re evaluate and get it right.
The Bible says there will be Christians during the tribulation and many say they will be the ones that said they believed but didn't live a Christian life or backslid.
People believe all sorts of things. But I would think that if those people truly had a love of truth, they would follow the Holy Spirit where He leads them. And the Holy Spirit responds to a persons love of truth. So I do not think that there will be very many who care about truth who will be left behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Galveston1,
I have no idea who the "He" is.
The Church is called a she, the bride if Christ.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Gal AND Arcura,
Couldn't the HE be the Holy Spirt that indwells every believer? When every believer is raptured out of here, HE goes to. "HE"is the restrainer. Now I am not suggesting that the Holy Spirit will leave the earth completely. Certainly he was here before he indwelt the believer.. but HE won't be INSIDE us anymore and that is going to make a HUGE difference. What say you?
classyT
That's a thought to ponder.
Thanks,
Fred
Give us the scripture reference so we can consider it.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
1 Cor 12:27
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
(KJV)
Eph 4:11-12
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(KJV)
With all due respect, I doubt the "he" is the Holy Spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
God is omnipresent, so there never will be a time when He is not here. (as you say) Also, Jesus said plainly that no one comes to Him unless the Father draws that person. We know many will accept Jesus during the time of Anti-Christ, so the Holy Spirit will be active all through most of that period.
Even if you are completely right, doesn't that still make the church the restraining force?
This passage is interpreted to be the marriage of Christ to His bride The Church who is making herself ready for His coming.
Rev 19: 7. "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
8. And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9. And he said to me, "Write, `Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, "These are true words of God."
10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Gal,Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
I believe the Church is the restraining force because of THE HOLY SPIRIT! And if you will read my post.. I said he ( the holy spirit) will not completely leave the earth but he will not be operating through us. I think the he you refer to is the Holy Spirit and I do not think think the Lord would refer to the Church as a he... I agree with Fred that we are the Bride. But I agree with you that the church that is indwelt with the holy spirit and HE is restraining the Anti Christ RIGHT NOW.
classyT,
Actually I believe that the Holy Spirit remains with us or within us through all time.
It is through Him that I believe we become one with the triune God as Jesus prayed for us to become.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred, scripture says that those who are saved do have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
John 14:16-18
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV
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