If the SON and the FATHER are one and the same, yet different (a concept which I am still not able to understand fully), whom do we pray to.
Should I pray to Jesus? Or, should I pray to a Christian God?
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If the SON and the FATHER are one and the same, yet different (a concept which I am still not able to understand fully), whom do we pray to.
Should I pray to Jesus? Or, should I pray to a Christian God?
You pray to God * the Father, as Jesus hisself taugh us to pray and
( depending on your desired use of terms) either in Jesus Name, or though Jesus.
Yes, you pray to the father, as jesus did. God knows your heart:
Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thine inner chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee.
Mat 6:7 And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mat 6:8 Be not therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
That question does puzzle me a bit, but I think that when you are praying to God, you are also praying to Jesus. Though Jesus is considered the son of Christ, I believe that if you're addressing either God or Jesus in a prayer, you are addressing them both as one... you understand what I mean? I hope that helped a bit. Have a wonderful day!
<3 kt
John 16:23-24
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
(KJV)
No one does. It's a mystery how that works.Quote:
Originally Posted by carla123
I think it is proper to pray to the Father in Jesus name, however I pray to the Lord Jesus all the time. (it works that way too) ;)
It really is not difficult when you understand how they are one. A good example is a marriage. Is not a husband and wife said to be one? Do not the three musketeers say "all for one and one for all?" God the Father and Christ the Son are one in agreement, objective and purpose. Like father like son. Christ thinks, feels and acts as his Father does. Thus they are one. So they are two distict persons with the same ideals. That being said, Jesus and God says we should pray to God as our Heavenly Father.
Hmmmm? Nope they are exactly the same person in a different form.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriarch
Think about it, a person cannot be his own father and his own son at the same time. If they were the same person Jesus would not have said "my father is greater than I am".-John 14:28 This shows that jesus is not the father but has a father and that his father is "greater" than he is. If they were the same person they would be equal not different.
Besides the material universe, let alone the earth, cannot contain God. Thus king Solomon said "the heaven (the sky) and heaven of heavens (outer space or the material universe) cannot contain thee".- 1 Kings 8:27 thus the universe cannot hold or house God and yet Jesus lived on earth. Again it shows that they are two individuals not one with some abnormal split personality as some misinformed people suggest. God is more massive than the material universe and too powerful to live within it. He does not have to leave the spirit realm but he does send his angelic sons to earth and he sent Jesus to us as well. It seems that when angels enter into our material dimension they reduce themselves in size.
Patriarch, some people don't want to take away from the divinity of jesus, by saying he isn't equal with god. I think it's in the way we ourselves think god should be. I don't think we have enough knowledge about god to make a conclusion. But, we can surmise that with the holy spirit working through flesh, god can do anything he wants. Jesus was the only accepted sacrifice for our sins. Jesus said he was before abraham. Jesus walked on water. Jesus was born of a virgin. And most importantly to us, jesus said he was the way to god. So his divinity is complete, and we should have faith that it is.
Patriarch,
I beg to differ. Jesus also said, I and my father are one... he said if you have seen me you've seen the father. I don't have to THINK about it... my mind is NOT like God's mind. I don't understand it but I believe it. The three are one of the same in different forms. MY MIND says there is no way... but GOD is bigger than us.
A husband and wife is said to be one as well, but they are not the same person. This is similar to how God and Jesus are one.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I do know that Jesus is divine, just as angels are divine, but being divine does not make one equal to God. Angels are spirits and God is a Spirit but that in itself does not make them equal. Just as one man is just as another man but that does not make them the same person.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
No? What does it make Jesus then? Equal to Ganesh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriarch
Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I agree they are one in being in harmony and agreement, having the same purpose in mind. They are in separate forms because one is the Father of the other and the other is the son of the Father. It really is simple logic, we see this all around us in humans. We are like God being made in his image. Just as a man can procreate a son from himself so has God. God did not make the universe for him to enter into it, for there is no reason for him to.
Colossians 1:13 "his dear Son" Jesus is God's Son not God himself
Colossians 1:15 "image of...God" Jesus is in God's image not the actual God
John 3:16 "God...gave his...Son" God gave his Son not himself
John 10:33 "maketh thyself God" The Jews mistakenly thought Jesus
Claimed to be God
John 10:36 "I am the Son of God" Jesus did not nor has he ever claimed to
Be God
John 1:18 "no man has seen God" No person has ever seen God but
They have seen Jesus
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons in one Godhead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriarch
Think of an apple -- apple skin, apple flesh, apple core -- three distinct and recognizable entities in one substance, an apple. An apple skin is different from apple flesh is different from an apple core, yet all three have "appleness."
Think of me. I am a daughter, a mother, and a wife. All are under one "umbrella," Wondergirl, but each one acts differently because of the role that is played. I act differently as a daughter from how I act as a mother and those two are different from how I act as a wife.
No, the Trinity is not explained by logic. We can try to use common ideas to explain how all three Persons of the Trinity are God, but it is not logical or even humanly understandable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriarch
Yes, he has. John 10:30 -- "I and the Father are One."Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriarch
Yes. Check the OT stories. Moses' hair turned white because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriarch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriarch
Patriarch,
No one has seen God as God! The problem is, you don't understand the scripture. The first book of the Gospel of John... read it. It says that in the beginning was the Word (capital W) and the Word was with God and the Word WAS GOD... then drop down a bit and you will see that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is God and until you understand this... you misunderstand scripture.
I would also like to point out that when the Pharasee's spoke to the Lord Jesus and they were trying to trip him up while talking about Abraham... the Lord Jesus said to them... Before Abraham was... I AM. Now... hmmm? Where else have we heard I AM. Oh yeah! Moses was told (by GOD)to go tell Phararoh that I AM had sent him... funny thing about all this is... the jewish pharisees had NO PROBLEM understanding what Jesus had just said. They picked up stones to stone him for saying such a thing. Jesus is GOD. Then add to that... when Jesus said.. if you have seen me you have seen the Father, and I and my Father are one. Jesus is GOD... how many ways can he say it?
In the eyes of the Lord, a married couple is considered one. NOT THE SAME THING in anyway as comparing that to GOD the Father, the son, and the holy spirit. People get divorced all the time and they are "one" again with someone else. Sorry Pat...
Jesus made the WORLD.. he was there in the beginning.. he is the alpha and the Omega. You should consider these things before you continue to stay in your false doctrine. That is my advise.
It is difficult for the flesh body born of this earth to recognize the spiritual realm of life as truely being a second reality to what we see and live.
To understand we need to open our minds to that reality. .
I can picture God's right hand reaching out to us through the spiritual realm into the realm of life we know on earth. This right hand of God would be Jesus, flesh of this earth! Emmanuel
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
As for the question, who do we pray to? Follow Christ, by praying to the Father as Christ did. Christ told us how to pray.. However when we call upon Jesus by asking in His name for whatever we hold in our heart. We are asking for God to offer what we need, just as a child would ask of help. All glory shown to God for all.
This is a great question and one I think all should understand so as not to pray amiss.
The trinity does play in this, but having complete understanding of the trinity is not necessary to understand how all three play a part in our prayers.
~Jesus our mediator
When Jesus died on the cross the veil in the church was rent from top to bottom. This was also symbolic. Meaning a priest is no longer our mediator to God. Jesus became our mediator to God.
1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
~The Holy Spirit
In a conversation between Jesus and his disciples before Jesus was crucified, his disciples were understandably worried and did not want Jesus to die. Not only for the obvious, but because they would miss Jesus dearly. They would miss walking with Him, talking to Him and learning from Him. Jesus then told them not to worry about that because God would send them (and those of us who are saved) the Comforter. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit.
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."
In this next verse Jesus explains who will receive the Comforter and we learn the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.
John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
Here Jesus is telling his disciples that God will send His Holy Spirit to those who believe in Him so that God will, not only be with them forever, but dwell in them forever.
Therefore, upon salvation God sends you the Holy Spirit, not BEFORE, but upon your askance of Him saving your soul.
The Holy Spirit not only dwells in you to lead you and guide you in your Christian walk, but the Holy Spirit is who prays for you.
Romans 8:26 & 27 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with great groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."
The Holy Spirit searches your heart and He is the one who prays for you. For example: God is not going to even hear the prayer of someone asking for a million dollars. Why? Because the Holy Spirit intercesses your prayers. The Holy Spirit is not going to take something like that to the Father. The Holy Spirit searches our hearts and prays for us. This does not mean we shouldn't use words when we pray, or that we should just sit there because we are not doing the work. The point is that the Holy Spirit is not going to take the things you ask for amiss to the Father.
On the same note there has been plenty of times when I have literally knelt and not said a word. I have just cried. I know that God knows my heart and He knows what I came to Him for. I didn't have to say anything and I knew the Spirit did what He does and read my heart and took it to God who chooses to answer.
Now let me put this all together and give you a definitive answer to your question. It matters not whether you address God or Jesus because it is the Holy Spirit who does the work. The Holy Spirit knows who to take your prayers to and what of your prayers to take. All three, the Holy Spirit, Jesus and God are going to know your prayers because the Holy Spirit takes your prayers and Jesus is our mediater to God, and of course God listens and chooses to answer or not. Therefore the exact name you address is of no import. Just so long as you understand and KNOW that God is the one who is receiving your prayers and answering them.
I hope this helps!
And just to add a couple extra things...
There are some people out there who believe in God but are not saved who actually thinks God hears their prayers. For example they believe in God, but have not yet turned their lives over to Him and they will pray to God when they are having a hard time. The ONLY sinners prayer that God hears is the one that is asking for salvation. Why? Because the Holy Spirit prays for us. If you are not saved you do not have the Holy Spirit in you. Therefore, your prayers are not heard.
Another thing... and I might get some flack for this from some Catholics, but I don't care because it is the truth...
As I said before the Holy Spirit is our intercessor to God. Therefore, the Holy Spirit takes our prayers to God. So when someone prays to Mary or any other saint in heaven it does not go to that saint. The Holy Spirit takes our prayers to the one who deals with them and that is God. Mary does not take our prayers to God and nor does any other saint. The Holy Spirit does and the Holy Spirit goes straight to the ONE He is supposed to.
The Holy Spirit is no less important than Jesus and God. He is an equal in the Trinity that is why He is part of the Trinity.
An example of help and making intercess for us. Is that understanding of our needs as Christ noted in Luke 10:40-41 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? Bid her therefore that she help me.And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves
You make you choices in life by the those intercessions which the Holy Spirits leads within you.
The Holy Spirit will help and comfort us to bring intercess of Our Father's Will when we listen and hear. It is very important that we pray, pray for our enemies (Matthew 5:44)that they might find their way, pray to give thanks (2 Cr 1:11) and praise, and God asks us to remind Him of His promises (Isa 43:26)Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves
Hebrew 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Hebrew 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Christ brought us intercession John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
The Three in One
Note the Very Presents of the Holy Spirit is Christ JesusQuote:
Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Absolutely! I couldn't agree more. My point was not to explain the Trinity though as we have done that many times over in past posts, but rather was to help the original poster understand how all 3 work as one as far as prayer goes. And to help the original poster understand how the Holy Spirit plays a huge part, not only in our Christian walk, but in our prayers which was the question. The poster made mention of the Trinity yet never mentioned the Holy Ghost who is very much God and very much a part of our prayers.
While that is true you are not three separate individuals. You are never at more than one place at a time, and yet while Jesus was on earth his Father, God, was in Heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
He was? And where is that??Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriarch
(Good grief! )
[QUOTE=Wondergirl;1293171]God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons in one Godhead.
The term nor the suggestion of the term"godhead" is in the Bible. This is a traditional teaching of men who claim to represent the cloth. I have never read anything that says that God is a Son. But the Bible does reveal that God has a Son. In fact he has many sons.
You mean you don't know where heaven is?? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl[QUOTE
[QUOTE=Wondergirl;1297229]He was? And where is that??
Matthew 3:16, 17 God spoke from the heavens while Jesus was on earth after his baptism
By the way God has no need to be baptized, but his Son did because
He had to learn obedience
Hebrews 5:6, again, God does not need to learn to obey himself.
No it is dogma that has brainwashed the masses in order to distort the true identity and roles of God and Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
One in this case indicates unity, being one does not being literally the same person.
For Christ also prayed that his disciples "all may be one", you do not assume they would be many persons in one abnormal head do you. Jesus wanted them to be unified and harmonious just as he and his Father are--John 17:21
This is a misunderstanding because Ex 33:20 say "shall no man see me and live" and John 1:18 says no man has seen God, thus Moses did not actually see God but merely an angelic representative of God. Otherwise you would mean that what God said and what St. John wrote was a lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Again, pray only to the Father of Jesus, God, and not to Jesus. Jesus never told anyone to pray to himself. Listen to Jesus and not men on earth. Jesus says pray to his Heavenly Father God.----Matthew 6:9, John 20:17 Jesus also prayed to God--John 11:41
Try Hebrews 5:8 ;) Good points too BTW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriarch
[QUOTE
God the Father and God the Son are one with God the Holy Spirit. It is a mystery and no one can explain it. Your little attempts at logic do not explain it either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriarch
[QUOTE=Moparbyfar;1297273][QUOTE=Patriarch
Try Hebrews 5:8 ;) Good points too BTW.[/QUOTE]
I thank you for the correction.
It is a mystery and no one can explain it. Your little attempts at logic do not explain it either.[/QUOTE]
It is a mystery only because it is not of divine origin but is of pagan origin, from ancient Egypt, Babylon and Greece. Mixing pagan beliefs with what the Bible reveals will confuse anyone.
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