WARNING, if anyone has not read the book and wants to or plans on seeing the movie instead, I suggest they not read this thread. Discussion of the themes of the book may reveal plot twists and spoil enjoyment of the book.

I just finished reading the book and found it very interesting. It's a better than average thriller but the historical themes I found extremely interesting. Some things I had already known, but others were new to me. In fact I was surprised that I had not known about them.

One of the main points is that much of the New Testament was written by the Roman Emperor Constantine 300-400 years after the death of Christ. Constantine saw Christianity rising and apparently took the attitude, if you can't beat 'em join 'em. Rather then let Christianity bring down the Roman Empire he decided to take control of it. The plethora of pagan symbology in Christianity seems to support this.

Another thing I found interesting is that, apparently, much of the historical points made in the book are not new or unknown but have been suppressed from being made widespread knowledge because of damage it might do.

For example I looked at the Last Supper and the figure to Christ's right is clearly a woman and not John. I consider myself pretty widley read yet I'd never heard of this before.

Anyone else want to comment?

Scott<>

Scott.Odd that you should bring this up.Last night,here in the UK,on National Geographic channel,was a two hour special on the Gospel of Judas.Explosive stuff or what.30 Gospels or more,only four chosen for the New Testament.Mathew,Mark,and Luke's Gospels,were not written by them.Judas's Gospel is dated (carbon dated),to about 170-200AD.He has a bad press,Jesus told him to betray him.Judas was Jesus's favourite.Wow.And that's just the first 45 minutes.
Before all this,same channel,Dan Brown was on,talking about unwrapping the DaVinci Code.Mary Magdelene was Jesus's wife.They had a daughter called Sara,and lived happily every after.
That painting by DaVinci,The Last Supper,does indeed show a woman,to Jesus's right.Both he and her,are in a "V" shape apart.A clear suggestion of the womb,and that both were "married".
The movie comes out May 25th,here in the UK.I can not wait to see it.Do I believe any of it... no.

Hi,
Since you posted this in the Religion Category, I will only add that Christians' religious beliefs come from the Bible and the Church. Books are written all the time, but the only one that counts is the Bible.

Nez, Yes I've been reading Judas documents. Apparently the document was stored in a safe deposit box in a bank where I do my banking! Oddly enough though, I think the revelations of that document actually support the concept of Jesus's divinity. Why would he ask Judas to betray him if he didn't anticipate what would happen? It indicates that he set the whole thing up.

Getting back to The DaVinci Code, do I believe that descendants of Christ exist? I don't know. I would have to see more evidence then contained in the book. Do I believe that the Church has suppressed facts and evidence that don't support its carefully crafted story of Christ? You bet I do!

There is no question that Jesus Christ was not one of the most, if not THE most, influential characters in recorded history. His teachings about peace and love should be followed and revered. But was he the son of God? Sorry, but I don't believe in that.

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Originally Posted by fredg

Hi,
Since you posted this in the Religion Category, I will only add that Christians' religious beliefs come from the Bible and the Church. Books are written all the time, but the only one that counts is the Bible.

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Counts in what way? Are you saying that anything that contradicts the Bible doesn't count? What is the Bible, but a book?

The idea and teaching about the "judas" documents are really nothing new, we studied various *other documents or writings* and the idea that Judas was merely acting on Jesus instruction is a concept that some have accepted. One of the other things is that the greek word we use for betray actually means to "turn over" so it does not automatically mean that he turned him over against his wishes or will, but merely he turned him over.

The only way we know if it was a betrayal, is to know the idea of the use of the word. Christian teachings have assumed betrayal but if you change the word betrayal in the bible to merely handed over, it will give you a different outlook.

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Originally Posted by fredg

Hi,
Since you posted this in the Religion Category, I will only add that Christians' religious beliefs come from the Bible and the Church. Books are written all the time, but the only one that counts is the Bible.

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Most will agree that you are completely wrong about this.

The vatican CONTROLS EVERYTHING religion... you will never see the total truth about Jesus and you will not see ALL the gospels... as is the vatican knows of new gospels according to Mary Magdelene but will never print them because who she was... to me the bible is nothing more than a bunch of stories written by different people and different periods... can they all be true.. NO... why? Because people interpret what they hear and see in different ways and write them down to make it more exciting... humans makes mistakes.. there are many INCONSISTENCIES in the bible... if you don't believe me do a search... the Vatican is the final word when it comes to what we know about Christianity... is there more somewhere... MOST Definitely... will we ever see it.. NO... thats why I take this religion with a grain of salt... I DON'T BELIEVE ANY RELIGION IS PERFECT OR ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY CENSOR THEIR OWN WRITINGS... do I believe there is 1 powerful being who made all the universes and galaxies and decided EARTH will be the ONLY 1 with LIFE.. OH HELL NO!

Chuck,
That was my understanding. I was somewhat surprised by the hype about these new documents since I always thought there was at least differing schools of thought.

This actually points out how things have gotten garbled over the ages. It is clear, that the name of Judas has become synonymous with betrayal and treachery. That Judas' alleged betrayal is the root of anti-semitism. So, if these new documents confirm what some scholars have thought it takes away much of the reasons for Christians (at least) to hate Jews.

As a side note,The Roman Catholic Church has never officially stated that it believes Judas is in Hell, it does not know where his soul is.In other words, if he had not hanged himself,but repented his actions,it would still have been possible? For him to be made a saint, as was (Saint) Peter who had denied Christ three times.
As for the (Church) surpressing "important" historical documents,I believe that this probably happened.After Jesus's death,and the Romans attempt to keep the lid on Christianity,various sects would have had their own agenda.When Christianity became the main (Roman) religion,the Vatican,as it was later to become,must surelly have sensored documents to keep the masses "on the correct" track.I'm not saying that Catholisism is bad by the way,as I know many Catholics,wth whom I can have many rational discussions,even though it's not my view point.Yet that ugly word politics always rears it's head from time to time,and once again we have many different views upon the subject,which will continue long after all of us have gone to dust.

Related to hiding or suppressing documents:

Remember, "the Church" is generally not who discovers ancient texts... and to boot, most of the most famous ones were found by either non-Christians or non Catholic Christians: neither of which are interested in protecting the name of Catholic Christianity.

I'm not so sure about that, Rick. Firstly, in more ancient times, literacy was mostly the province of the Church. So, any documents found were more likely to be brought to the Church. Secondly, ancient documents discovered in modern times were often bought to the church for translation and/or verification.

I disagree on both counts.

1. Can you cite reputable source claiming that "literacy was the province of the Church"?

2. Can you name an ancient document discovered in modern times that was brought to the Church - with the exception of Codex Vaticanus?

Until the last couple hundred years, even the Church itself was not so interested in discovering old documents: I cite, for example, the discovery of the Codex Sinaiticus in 1859 in the rubbish bin of a monastary.

Despite that Archaeology was all but non-existent until the 18th century, "the Church" has always had plenty of enemies. Surely a huge reward would await the person who discovered something that proves what the church teaches or believes on a significant issue is wrong.

I believe the evidence shows that the Church is far more interested in truth over protecting a false belief. Example: the Church's allowing the Shroud of Turin to be tested. Granted the tests are not conclusive, but most Catholic Scholars agree that it does not date back to the time of Christ.

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... Constantine saw Christianity rising and apparently took the attitude, if you can't beat 'em join 'em. Rather then let Christianity bring down the Roman Empire he decided to take control of it. The plethora of pagan symbology in Christianity seems to support this...

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True, Constantine was more interested in political union within the empire than in true worship. That's why many of those who were baptized were allowed to retain their unChristian beliefs. The result was that Christianity began to fall away from the original teachings. This merging with the world had been warned against.

1 John 2:15-17; James 4:4; Rom. 12:2. James 1:27

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org...hi/church6.htm

Thankfully the Church has recovered. A close examination of the beliefs and practices of today's Catholicism/Orthodoxy, along with an examination of what we have available to us from the writings of the earliest Christians, we find, an incredible consistency.

Thankfully, we now have an abundancy of ancient texts incredibly close (far closer than nearly any other ancient texts) to their dates of original composition - of both books of the NT and of writings of early Church Fathers - to affirm this.

:)
Hello everybody!
Will you allow an ignorant Jew to join this debate?
When I say "ignorant", I mean it: my knowledge regarding Christianity and the way it reached it's present "forms" so toeasto say, is merely nerolgeneral, and derived from History classes during high school (I oftenl regret not having a broader history knowledge - I find it necessary - almost imperative in many daily situations).
So:
I've read "Da Vinci Code" as a fascinating thriller. I regarded it as a wonderful historical fiction book.
Then, all of a sudden, there was a "burst" of nON FICTION programs dealing with the core of this book.
On the Natl. Geog. Channel, debates on the BBC Prime channel, on Discovery channel. To my great astonishment, I found out there were serious considerations regarding the most important issues brought to light in this book, and now, to spiced it even more, the whole story of Judas gospel was brought to public attention.
I'm not even trying to join the debate concerning the question of what is the truth, or why is it presented (or not) as it is, and how did it happen that Christianity reached it's state today, and how and why Constantinus turned to Christianity.
|I only wish to make one point, without getting involved in the debate concerning the origin of the Bible: I know that HUMAN beings decided which books were included in the Old Testament, and there are books we know about, but were excluded, although they already existed at that time, like for example the two Maccabean books.
If we, the Jews have knowledge of all our excluded books? How can I know, but I know there are more than one.
In the same manner, and for all the possible reasons one might think of, the same might have happened with the books concerning the beginning of Christianity.
I apologize if I might have hurt anybodies feeling, I had NO intention to do that.
Bye,
Millie

I don't think anyone will be offended by what you say.

I, too, am always amazed when fictions like The Davinci Code and The Last Temptation of Christ get so much hubbub.

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Originally Posted by rickj

I disagree on both counts.

1. Can you cite reputable source claiming that "literacy was the province of the Church"?

2. Can you name an ancient document discovered in modern times that was brought to the Church - with the exception of Codex Vaticanus?

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1. Well I can't cite any specific source, but googling Medieval literacy brings back several links that appear to support what I said. Maybe if I rephrase it you will understand better. Most people could not read into medieval times. Peasants and such were not educated. News and entertainment were brought by minstrels or travelers. Literacy was something that was taught by the church to clergy and the nobility. Schools were almost always run by clergy.

2. No I can't, but then archeology is not my field.

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Originally Posted by milliec

:)
Hello everybody!
Will you allow an ignorant Jew to join this debate?

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Millie,
All are welcome who wish to participate with open minds and/or civil discourse.

You make a valid point. I think the issue may be why certain books were excluded. The premise of The DaVinci Code is that they were excluded because they didn't support, or worse contradicted, the books that were included. Not sure if that is true of anything omitted from the Old Testament.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

2. No I can't, but then archeology is not my field.

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Oh, so saying "Secondly, ancient documents discovered in modern times were often bought to the church for translation and/or verification." was just a guess?

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Originally Posted by rickj

Oh, so saying "Secondly, ancient documents discovered in modern times were often bought to the church for translation and/or verification." was just a guess?

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No, it was an impression I had based on things I must have read in the past, but nothing I could specifically cite without spending more time then I have in research, so I retracted it.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

Millie,
All are welcome who wish to participate with open minds and/or civil discourse.

You make a valid point. I think the issue may be why certain books were excluded. The premise of The DaVinci Code is that they were excluded because they didn't support, or worse contradicted, the books that were included. Not sure if that is true of anything omitted from the Old Testament.

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Hello,it's me again!
I don't want sound like my answer is soundly based on knowledge, I merely try to recollect whatever I was taught 46 yrs. Ago!
As far as I can remember, the reason for excluding some of the books had to do with different aspects which might nit have been in complete agreement with the "main stream"
- I'll try ro see if I can obtain something more substantial- I refer to the Old Testament ONLY.
I'll share with the forum here any further information I'll have, if and when I do.
Millie

One more thing:
Even if one believes the Bible was written, dictated, or at least inspired by a divine entity ,
I don't think we would disagree much that HUMAN BEINGS decided which books were included in the final
Form of The Book.
Millie

Just wanted to add, I haven't read the book or seen the movie, but my adoptive mom is really into this stuff. She read the DaVinci code with relish and saw all the little spin-off shows about it. Now she is reading a book called "The Pagan Christ", which she says is very good. I believe it says in it though that Jesus (and Mohammed and Buddha, etc) never existed. And that's rather a controversial and not well proven theory. However, she is really enjoying it, so I thought I'd recommend it to anyone who's interested in the subject.

First off, wow, there's a book that says Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha never existed? Now there's a controversial statement if I ever saw one, and one that I definitely do not believe.

After looking over this thread, I want to make several comments.

The first thing I want to say is that I was very intrigued by reading this book and could not get myself to put it down for hours, prompting my dad to make fun of me that I was actually devouring an adult novel (but that's another issue entirely). Having been raised in a culturally Jewish household and coming to terms with my own religious beliefs, which are Christian, the book presented issues to me that, as I'm sure Dan Brown intended, made me question my beliefs, although not to the point of changing them, as I think my parents would have liked.

Although The DaVinci Code discusses some real people, real organizations, and real works of art, and presents actual myths (in other words the book contains some facts), this is a work of FICTION and is not to be taken to heart. Earlier in this thread, it was said that the Bible is the only book that counts. In my eyes, ANY book that makes the reader think "counts" and the thinking process the reader goes through is what makes the book a good read. As for "counting" in terms of religion, there definitely are inconsistencies within the text and questions raised by the text of the Bible. For example, how do we know for sure that Jesus walked on water or raised the dead? We don't. But some Christians have FAITH that these and other events occurred, and instead of immediately branding them as "wrong" we should accept that that is their belief, even if we disagree. Or you can go with what I believe, which is that it's not about the specific examples of Christ's work, it's not about every thing that the Bible tells us He did. It's about believing in Christ's message that we should respect and love each other as human beings.

Enough with my dealing with specific Christian beliefs, though. The DaVinci Code is an exciting work of historical fiction that takes the reader in, presents ideas for the reader to think about, and keeps the reader interested right to the end, which is what a great book SHOULD do. The ideas presented are not there for readers to say "yes this is true," but for readers to think "could this be possible?" I know I personally looked up several things mentioned in the book and was surprised to find them to be true, but did not take it as fact just from the book.

I personally cannot wait for the movie to come out and I know my parents and I are planning on seeing it as soon as it does, and I also know I'm looking forward to seeing what the movie keeps in and leaves out.

I've rambled for long enough now and if you've read the whole thing, thank you.

The deal had to go down in any case. Jesus, GOD in human form, had to walk among us then suffer the greatest sacrifice there is. After all, what great leader would have his people do anything that He Himself would not?
When it was time for the Christ to die, I doubt that any of the disciples would turn him over on their own for a few pieces of gold. Unless of course, Judas did not believe there is a GOD! Still, the master plan had to unfold so I don't find it too great a stretch that Christ picked Judas and told him what had to be done. In any case, we will all find out for sure very soon! As far as the Davinci Code goes, RUBBISH! The problem with people today is that they will fall for anything as long as they are fat and happy. That goes for me also. The only thing is, I woke up one morning not to long ago and realized that Bible prophecy was really coming true. The globalists are promoting a one world government and the new age movement is promoting a new religon and we sit by and watch it happen. Sovereign nations will soon cease to exist and a single global economic system is beginning to take shape. Yet we sit and argue about why Judas did what he did and wonder if the Christ, GOD in the human form, really just slipped away and had children instead of dying on the cross for you and me. Well, I guess the powers that are taking over our world as we once knew it have us exactly where they want us.

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Originally Posted by milliec

One more thing:
Even if one believes the Bible was written, dictated, or at least inspired by a divine entity ,
I don't think we would disagree much that HUMAN BEINGS decided which books were included in the final
form of The Book.
Millie

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If we believe that he took time to inspire it, then it's only logical to conclude that the almighty author also made sure that only the books he wanted included were included. Otherwise we would be thinking inconsistently.

Human beings did decide which books would be included in the bible.

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Originally Posted by magprob

Human beings did decide which books would be included in the bible.

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I didn't say they didn't. I Only pointed out that if God can be thought of as having inspired humans to write, then he can be thought of as having inspired humans to choose which ones were included. If we deny this then we are being illogical.

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Originally Posted by Starman

I didn't say they didn't. I Only pointed out that if God can be thought of as having inspired humans to write, then he can be thought of as having inspired humans to choose which ones were included. If we deny this then we are being illogical.

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Well Starman dear, I guess we can attribute this to some kind of "inner voice" we've been discussing in another thread not far away from this one, only, maybe, somewhat different. The question is: did they obey and followed the instructions without personal intervenience?
Millie

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Originally Posted by magprob

As far as the Davinci Code goes, RUBBISH! The problem with people today is that they will fall for anything as long as they are fat and happy.

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Can you be a little more specific? What about it was "rubbish"? I checked out a few things mentioned in the book and most were verifiable. I think the only point that wasn't was the issue of the existing bloodline.

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Originally Posted by milliec

Well Starman dear, I guess we can attribute this to some kind of "inner voice" we've been discussing in another thread not far away from this one, only, maybe, somewhat different. The question is: did they obey and followed the instructions without personal intervenience?
Millie

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An almighty God would prevent that--correct? So I understand the rhetorical question you pose as casting doubt on God's existence or else his motives, wisdom, and power. I agree, anything can be attributed to anything we wish to attribute it to. For example, many evolutionists attribute the existence of life anywhere to the mindless process they call evolution while believers see the hand of God. Believers see evidence of intelligent design everywhere around us while many evolutionists see occurrences chance. Each group has its own view to which it is entitled.

Me? I share the Apostle Paul's view as expressed in the following scripture.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. NIV

I also share his view on the Bible

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,. NIV

That doesn't mean that YOU have to share it, it simply means that I do.


BTW

I don't believe in extensive debates since they tend to lead nowhere.
So my posts are not intended as challenges to anyone else's beliefs but merely the expression of my views with which others may or may not agree.

Sometimes I have needed guidance and I would just open the bible to a random place. Lo and behold, that spot in the bible would have the answer to my problem and would be comforting. Now Starman, I don't want to hear about scientific variables and such because there is nothing empirical about it, let alone logical... I only want you to ponder the fact that the word of God is... alive. Yes... it is a living thing and an entity all IT'S own, because of the energy behind IT and in IT. To sit and split hairs is nothing but a waste of time. Yours and mine. The greatest minds throughout history have never made a logical link from our plane to the spiritual plane of existence. I doubt that you will here... now "In the beginning there was the word." Christ is refurred to as the word. Christ is GOD in human form. Yes, it is true that people through the ages have tried to suppress that, however: they can never suppress GOD HIMSELF-The word.
By the way, the pseudo intellects usually lead us nowhere when the debates become extensive.

On a related note: I enjoyed Angels and Demons almost more than Da Vinci Code.

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Originally Posted by magprob

The greatest minds throughout history have never made a logical link from our plane to the spiritual plane of existance.

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Agreed. The practice of religion and the worship of any entity has no basis in logic. It exists purely as a matter of faith. Many people's faith is extremely strong and provides them with strength and comfort. Other people prefer facts and/or logic to justify their beliefs. Whatever floats one's boat.

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Originally Posted by magprob

Christ is GOD in human form. Yes, it is true that people thru the ages have tried to supress that, however: they can never suppress GOD HIMSELF-The word.

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I don't believe that anyone has tried to "suppress" that. Instead I think the word is "refute". Not everyone believes as you do. Msny people believe differently. Such people are comfortable in their own beliefs as you are on yours. They are also entitield to those beliefs as you are to yours.

Was Jesus Christ the son of God? I don't believe so. Was he one of the most influential characters in recorded history? Unquestionably! Was some of his teachings and philosophy worth passing on? Yes, I think they were.

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Originally Posted by magprob

Sometimes I have needed guidance and I would just open the bible to a random place. Lo and behold, that spot in the bible would have the answer to my problem and would be comforting. Now Starman, I don't want to hear about scientific variables and such because there is nothing empirical about it, let alone logical...I only want you to ponder the fact that the word of God is...alive. Yes...it is a living thing and an entity all IT'S own, because of the energy behind IT and in IT. To sit and split hairs is nothing but a waste of time. Yours and mine. The greatest minds throughout history have never made a logical link from our plane to the spiritual plane of existance. I doubt that you will here...now "In the beginning there was the word." Christ is refurred to as the word. Christ is GOD in human form. Yes, it is true that people thru the ages have tried to supress that, however: they can never suppress GOD HIMSELF-The word.
By the way, the pseudo intellects usually lead us nowhere when the debates become extensive.

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Reason and faith are not mutually exclusive. It's OK to use reason in the service of faith. Ever hear of Thomas Aquinas? http://publish.uwo.ca/~dgault/phil20/reading2.htm


Not all Christians agree with your opinion on Jesus. Actually, what we all agree on, at least I am assuming we agree on, is that Jesus died for our sins and that salvation depends on recognizing that he did and living a life which honors that sacrifice.

BTW
Namecalling is not a Christian virtue.

So you believe as the New Age groups believe. Christ, Budha, Gandi were all just enlightened humans trying to bring peace to the planet. That's fine with me. The point that they discount GOD is not fine with me, however, I am fine with the fact that you have the right to believe anything you want to. There are as many paths as there are humans. Each one of us are somewhere on that path. I, in my own mind, have connected with the reality of this planet and what is happening in the bigger picture to see that the biblcal explanation runs parallel with where we are heading. IE: the globalists which are at this moment creating and implementing a one world government, national ID cards for you and me and, last but not least, the New Age movement with a new religon that works well with the New World Order. So you can believe anything you want to and if that doesn't work... they will tell you what to believe. No one will tell me what to believe when I know in my heart what is right. From that tiny little voice that speaks to us all. That is who I listen to. You have no argument from me as I can see you also have found the reality that works for you. That's where you are on your path.

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Originally Posted by Starman

Reason and faith are not mutually exclusive. It's OK to use reason in the service of faith. Ever hear of Thomas Aquinas? http://publish.uwo.ca/~dgault/phil20/reading2.htm


Not all Christians agree with your opinion on Jesus. Actually, what we all agree on is that Jesus died for our sins and that salvation depends on recognizing that he did and living accordingly.

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Ahhh yes... now you drag me into the trap! I agree with you that a lot can be said about St. Aquinas and the Catholic church as a whole... I isn't going there baby! I will though, ask you to just look at Mexico and then you will have my complete opinion on that subject! As far as what all Christians agree with or don't agree with, I really could not care less what "christians" think. From the one's I have know, they don't think. I do not go to their church's to watch the fashion show and get updated on the latest gossip. No, don't you group me with that ilk!

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Originally Posted by magprob

So you believe as the New Age groups believe. Christ, Budha, Gandi were all just enlightened humans trying to bring peace to the planet. .

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No, I never said that. I said that Christ died for our sins and that salvation comes only by recognizing that fact. I don't place Buddha, Mohammed, Gandhi, or any other human on the same level as Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. NIV


The difference between us is that you believe him to be God while I believe him to be God's only begotten Son. Hope that clears up the confusion.

I said GOD in the flesh. If he is not one in the same with GOD then just how far removed is he. Splitting hairs! He was an immaculant conception so go figure!