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I've seen where it's claimed that this or that good work will get so many years taken off your stay in purgatory. Just what exactly does the RCC teach regarding the length of one's stay there? Is it a millisecond? A million years? Does anyone know, and if so, can they rightly claim that this or that work takes off "X" amount of purgatorial time?
Rob
I believe that if you need purgatory then you are not relying on Jesus as sufficient to forgive your sins.
Purgatory - Is It Biblical?
I believe what people call purgatory is an instantaneous moment
1 Corinthians 3:15
"If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."
Though Mr. Keating does not point out this verse in this E-Letter, he has often appealed to it when trying to present a Biblical text to serve as proof for Rome's doctrine of "purgatory."
I think Rome's apologists especially like this verse because it contains the words that sound like their doctrine of "purgatory:" "suffer," "loss," "fire," "saved," etc. However, like any Biblical text, it must be examined and understood within its immediate and overall context, for "any text taken out of context is a pretext."
Even a cursory examination of the context discloses that the Apostle Paul is not describing a man imprisoned in a place where his sins are being purged through personal suffering and by cleansing fire. In fact, Paul is not addressing sins in this passage at all, but a Christian workman's labor and subsequent rewards.
Paul metaphorically points out that according to the grace of God given to him, as a wise master builder he laid the foundation of Christ in Corinth, and another subsequently builds upon that foundation with valuable, noncombustible materials such as gold, silver and precious stones, or, worthless combustible materials such as wood, hay or straw (3:8-12). The value of the building materials is analogous to the value of the workman's labor, and it is the value of this "work" that "will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work" (3:13). If the work by which he built upon the foundation remains he receives a reward (vs. 14). If any of the man's work is burned up, he suffers loss (of reward, vs. 15).
When read in context it becomes very clear that Paul is not speaking of a future stint for believers in a place called "purgatory." But a future judgment when a Christian worker's labor will be tested (i.e. appraised), and if found valuable, rewarded. There is absolutely no mention of personal sins in the context of this passage, and the fire here is not a means of purging but revealing (vs. 13).
Rome's doctrine of "purgatory" does not comply at all with the Biblical teachings of God's grace toward us through Christ Jesus. And the amazing irony is that those who teach this valueless, totally non-Biblical doctrine, will at that future judgment themselves, if saved, suffer loss as by "fire."
Purgatory is taken from
"At his death, our Lord "preached to the spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3:19). Who were these folks, and where were they? They were those who died before the Redemption was effected and who were bound for heaven--but who were not yet there because heaven was not opened to anyone until after the Resurrection. These people were not in the hell of the damned, since we are told that Christ ended up taking them along with him to heaven (Eph. 4:8-10). Those in hell weren't going anywhere. It would have made no sense for him to preach to them."
BUT THAT place was a waiting place for the time when Jesus was crucified and THEN set them free and is no longer needed.
NOhelp4u,Quote:
Originally Posted by nohelp4u
Thanks for the insight. It would seem that you would argue that the RCC shouldn't teach such things as "3 yrs off purgatory for reading your Bible" , etc.
Rob
AGREE with you, NOhelp4u.. Such an important part of not teaching falsely. Keeping Chirst Holy, and Above All Else believing in His worthyness in body and blood.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Isaiah 42:3A A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench: He shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Matthew 12:20 A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory
To My servant say's God: " I " will trim your wick so that "My" Light of Truth shines bright and "I" have victory.. Amen to that!
Let's just say Nohelp4u sows good seed.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhadsen
Matthew 13:22-23 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
I don't know about specific church denomination doctrines, but the Bible says this:Quote:
Originally Posted by rhadsen
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
NO mention of purgatory in the Bible. Just death, then judgment.
This is a issue of church teachings it is obvoius those that don't believe in it, will not accept its teaching. There is no exact time people, for it. As to the power and authority of the church to do such, it is from the power also to bind or loose sins given to the church though Peter.
Where does the Bible say that a church can bind or loose sin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Jesus said the following referring to spiritual warfare:
Matthew 16:19
And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 16:18-20 (in Context) Matthew 16 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 18:18
“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 18:17-19 (in Context) Matthew 18 (Whole Chapter)
BUT, this does not give us the power to bind or loose sin.
We are born in sin and the only one to forgive our sin and change the iniquity of our heart is the LORD GOD.
EDIT:
I was wrong to assume. Jesus did command us to forgive others sins.
Fr. Chuck: Please forgive me?
John 20:22-24 (English Standard Version)\22And when he had said this, he(A) breathed on them and said to them, (B) "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23(C) If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."
Denominations can claim anything they want the thing is studying to figure out what the Bible says and means.
I think that's why I go to a non-denominational church. We just use the Bible for our instruction, not what someone else said we should be or do.
This is the problem. Too often the denomination or church leadership is put in place of the true authority - scripture. Once they claim that they are alone are to interpret scripture or that you must follow their interpretation, it is time to leave that church since they have taken on a role which scripture says that they ought not to assume:Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
2 Peter 1:19-21
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV
It is not of private interpretation of man - no man! Scripture interprets scripture.
Fr. Chuck.
Please see my edit on post #8. I was wrong.
Kelly
My opinion is we have freedom of choice. The freedom we arrived to achieve in America years ago. We have freedom to religion. This all accounts for the free will God gaves us. Follow in His Light or follow darkness. Scripture does not say give up your free will to the church authorities or priest. Nor does scripture say God gave your free will to the authorities of the church. Scripture tells us that God has fore told us all things. It does not say the church authority were the only ones fore told all things. All will be accountable to their actions, and Jesus does hold the Book to which your actions are held accountable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
(Revelation 20:12)And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.
God told us this was all shown to John and he was told to write it in a (book) that book is call Revelation.
Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
The churches are the people, believers and non believers, the church authority had no power given except to feed the sheep. What should they feed? Truth, The Word of God being Christ. God sent angels (messengers) within the church. These angels / messengers are the priest...
Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.
Christ had in His hand seven stars which are angels Revelation 1:20 does explain that fact. And out of Christ mouth was the Word like a 2 edged sword, and Christ's countenance as the sun, being as the Light, and His Light is the law in strength.
Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
The angel Christ sent are the authority of the church, and they are to testify these things noted: Who is Christ!
The Sabbath, Holy thou art
The power given to church is the power to accept members (to bind) and to excommunicate them (to loose); not to bind and to loose sins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
If you could notice the restriction of the power, it is only earth-based.
Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Assuming for the sake of argument that purgatory does exists, and the power pertains to binding and losing of sins, then, even the church has no power to loose the sin of those who are in it because the power given to the church is only earth-bound.
Good points. It is also important to note that the reference in Matthew 16 is not given to a specific person, persons or church denomination, but rather to the universal church of those who are saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
Also, we need to be careful regarding what those keys are. They are not the keys to forgive sin and thus determine who can enter heaven and who cannot. Jesus retained those keys.
Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV
We do have another set of keys mentioned in scripture.
Luke 11:51-53
52 Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."
NKJV
The key of knowledge - they only key of knowledge that would stop ((bind) one from entering the kingdom would be the knowledge of the gospel. They knew the truth that was in scripture, and bound others from enter by not giving them the truth, and choose not to enter themselves. This key (he truth of the gospel) was given to the church and we were given the commandment to spread the gospel make disciples.
Hopefully everyone will agree that with your free will, you would choose to do the Will of God... But one will believe that the priest was sent as the messenger, (angel) and does seek the Will of God with glory given to God.. and not himself or itself.
John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Roman catholic ideas about purgatory (and prayers to help those in purgatory), were not the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. Such were not taught within the Romish church to any great degree until around 600 when Pope Gregory the Great made claims about a third state, a place for the purification of souls before their entrance into heaven and did not become an actual dogma until the Council of Florence in 1459.
During the twelfth century, a legend was spread which claimed that St. Patrick had found the actual entrance to purgatory. In order to convince some doubters, he had a deep pit dug in Ireland, into which several monks descended. Upon their return, said the tale, they described Purgatory and Hell with discouraging vividness. In 1153, the Irish knight, Owen, claimed he had also gone down through the pit into the underworld. Tourists came from far and near to visit the spot. Then financial abuses developed and in 1497, Pope Alexander VI ordered it closed as a fraud. Three years later, however, Pope benedict XIV preached and published a sermon in favor of Patrick's Purgatory. ( Babylon, Mystery Religion pages 70-71)
The Catholic church derives it's doctrine of paying indulgences, (paying to get sinners out of Purgatory) from 2 Machabees 12:38-46, a book that is full of doctrinal errors and so was not included in the collection of books we now know as the Bible.
In this story, Judas, an army commander, went into battle and in the course of things, took away the slain. The slain had idols under their coats and were supposed to be slain because of the just judgement of God. He sent 12000 drachmas of silver to Jerusalem to pay for the sacrifice to be offered for the dead, for he hoped that they that were slain would rise again from the dead. He considered that they who had fallen asleep had great godliness and had great grace laid up for them.It says in 2 Mach. 12: 46," It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they be loosed from sins. "
These guys were worshipping other Gods,. I'm sure that God would welcome them into Heaven because some-one paid a bit of cash... NOT!
It is contradictory to Deut.26:14, Psalm 49:6-7, 1 Peter 1:18, or when the sorcerer tried to buy the gift of God in Acts 8:20, Peter said to him "to hell with you and your money. how dare you think you could buy the gift of God". This is the literal translation of this verse, according to J.B. Phillips.
Also, Jesus said it was hard for a rich man to enter into Heaven, if buying indulgences was true, then Jesus was wrong, ( and I don't think that that is the case.)
Cheers. :)
I believe that binding and losing is dealing with the Kingdom of Heaven, that is, binding and losing those that have been afflicted by the enemy. We bind the demonic forces and loose those who are bound by them. The actual translation is " whatever you bind on earth, shall HAVE BEEN BOUND in Heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall HAVE BEEN LOOSED in Heaven.
We can only bind and loose what has already been bound or loosed in the heavenlies.
Jesus could only do what He saw his Father do, or say what He heard His Father say, it is the same for us, we can only do that that has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit.
We do things by faith, but we are led to do it by the Holy Ghost.
We know that all sickness comes from the devil (Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. )
So we know Jesus assignment was to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.)
This is also our assignment, but we must hear and see what God has already bound in Heaven and whom He has loosed, so that we can do His work here also.
Luke 9
1Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
Luke 10
1After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
21In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Cheers. :)
Yes... I'll go along with that, there followers will also believe without question all of their teachings, as of course they should... so it goes on until someone questions itQuote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Just so you remember, pointing a finger at one to blame, there will be three fingers pointing back at you.. Responsibilities and accountability is in you. Satan can tempt you, but it up to you to rebuke satan, in the Name of Jesus with power that does cut off the devil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
Example: David to reap what was sown from not rebuking satan.. I Chronicles 21:1
Read for you must learn what following satan causes..
~Thank God for His teaching and blessing in "ALL" the Word
Luke 10:18 And 1161 he said 2036 unto them 846, I beheld 2334 Satan 4567 as 5613 lightning 796 fall 4098 from 1537 heaven 3772.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
Meaning of 2444
1) to be a spectator, look at, behold
a) to view attentively, take a view of, survey
1) to view mentally, consider
4098 metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation
satan = Example of evil
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Isa 14:12-15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning...
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
That is what Jesus 'beheld'
Sndbay, I'm not sure what you are saying, is English your second language, I think you mean rebuking. I know you mean well, I just don't understand. No offense meant. :)
Sndbay, what does all the numbers mean, they don't relate to Strongs Concordance of the Bible, where are they from and what is the point you are trying to make? Cheers :)
Yeah I think it is Strong's too
yes I corrected the spelling error... on rebuke "please forgive me"Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
As for the numbers they refer the original Hebrew or Greek word of the scripture. Held in safe keeping by what is called The Massorah.
The Massorah. - Appendix to the Companion Bible
Very definitely apart of Strongs Concordance , and my point was just to show that we are told of the evil that satan puts before us. Our decision is to be friend satan in darkness or follow Christ in the Light = Law. That verse really puts the fact out there of how we are shown he is evil.
1 Corinthians 3 2 I gave you milk to drink, not meat; for you were not able as yet. But neither indeed are you now able; for you are yet carnal.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhadsen
In teaching the truths of the faith, the Church has frequently used simplistic terms which would help the uninitiate understand the custom more easily.
That is why heaven and hell have frequently been depicted as material places but they are spiritual truths. Going to heaven is being joined with God. God is Spirit. Not a place.
Yet it is much easier to envision heaven as a place than as a State of being.
The same with hell. Hell is not a place, it is the state of being in opposition to God for all eternity.
But since we are temporal beings, we envision hell more easily as a place of torment and fire.
What does that have to do with Purgatory?
Well, its easier for us to think of Purgatory as a place where punishment occurs for our sin for a certain amount of time. Yet, Purgatory is outside of time and space. How can time elapse there? It can't.
So, speaking of Purgatory in terms of time and space was simply for us to more easily grasp the concept of "temporal" punishment for sin as opposed to "eternal" punishment for sin (i.e. hell).
In recent years, the Church has changed this manner of speaking:
How to Get an Indulgence (This Rock: September 2006)
Sincerely,
De Maria
The problem is that scripture does not mention purgatory at all, and the doctrine denies the gospel, because if we can pay for even a small part of our sin, we could pay for it all, and Christ died on the cross in vain.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The doctrine of purgatory contradicts 1 John 1:9.
Basically all that does is cover 'Judgement day'
Where works will be burned up or refined but the believer will be saved
NO purgatory involved
Scripture does not mention purgatory explicitly. But Scripture describes purgatory frequently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
Apocalypse 20 5 The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
What is St. Paul doing when he says?Quote:
and the doctrine denies the gospel, because if we can pay for even a small part of our sin, we could pay for it all, and Christ died on the cross in vain.
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:
Why must we suffer in order to be glorified with Christ?
Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.
2 2 Timothy 2 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
How does suffering in the flesh do away with sin?
1 Peter 4 1 Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins:
1 John 1 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.Quote:
The doctrine of purgatory contradicts 1 John 1:9.
On the contrary, it supports Purgatory. Cleansing us from iniquity is precisely what Purgatory does for us.
Sincerely,
De Maria
That is precisely what we call Purgatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
''judgment day'' does not require or involve
Temporal punishment
Does not categorize sins as venial and mortal
Does not imply something you have to atone or make up for
Why do you say that? Is there some resource upon which you are basing your information?Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
That was not purgatory, but rather Abraham's bosom (See Luke 16). Nothing here suggest a fiery punishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Nothing about purgatory here. This is the resurrection of the dead.Quote:
Apocalypse 20 5 The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Note that this speaks of works not speaking of people in fire.Quote:
1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
Note all of these refer to what he is suffering while alive in the flesh. Reading scripture in context does wonders at resolving this supposed claims.Quote:
What is St. Paul doing when he says?
I note that you ignored 1 John 1:9.
True. Nothing here about Abraham's bosom either. And Luke 16 also describes Purgatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Not yet. The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished Where were they for 1000 years?Quote:
Nothing about purgatory here. This is the resurrection of the dead.
Sins are works of straw.Quote:
Note that this speaks of works not speaking of people in fire.
But didn't you say that our suffering did not expiate sin, otherwise Christ died for naught. Do I have to quote you?Quote:
Note all of these refer to what he is suffering while alive in the flesh. Reading scripture in context does wonders at resolving this supposed claims.
And in this verse, St. Paul says he suffers for us filling in his flesh was was WANTING in Christ's.
So, please answer the question posed to you. How can St. Paul suffer for our sin?
How can we suffer for our sins as explained by St. Peter, he who suffers in the flesh CEASES with sin.
Is it perhaps that Jesus died on the Ctross to give us a model that we should follow in His footsteps. He suffered for our sins so that we could suffer for our sins as well?
1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.
Once you understand the teaching of vicarious suffering, you will understand the concept of expiation of sin, on this earth and in the next.
Matthew 12 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.
No I didn't.Quote:
I note that you ignored 1 John 1:9.
I quoted it, bolded the words "cleanse us of sin" and explained that the verse substantiates the concept of Purgatory. It is in purgatory that those who die in an imperfect state of grace are "cleansed of sin".
Sincerely,
De Maria
Because then Jesus died for no reason. The Bible says that God casts our sins away as far as the East is to the West. Do you really believe that we walk around for years carrying our sins until Purgatory? Jesus said cast our burdens on him not walk around with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
We do not pay for our sins
Where is the fire? Where are people paying for their own sins? No, not at all. Not even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Sigh! Did you notice that there were two resurrections? Did you notice that those who were saved were in the first resurrection. Those who were unsaved were in the second.Quote:
Not yet. The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished Where were they for 1000 years?
Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJV
So if I were to accept your argument, purgatory is only for the unsaved before they go to hell.
1 John 1:9 says that Jesus paid the price for ALL sins of those who are saved. The context is that straw are works not honoring to Christ - there is yet nothing about people going through fire to pay for their own sins.Quote:
Sins are works of straw.
So where does scripture say that we suffer to pay the rpcie for our own sin?Quote:
But didn't you say that our suffering did not expiate sin, otherwise Christ died for naught. Do I have to quote you?
I missed where it says that Paul suffered to pay the rpice for our sin. Please point that out to me.Quote:
So, please answer the question posed to you. How can St. Paul suffer for our sin?
24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
What is happening to Dives? Why is he there being tormented in flames? Why does he want Abraham to send someone to his brothers?Quote:
Where are people paying for their own sins?
Are you sure? Now that I've pointed out the fire, please reread it.Quote:
No, not at all. Not even close.
Yes, I did. Did you notice that there were some people already given judgement before the first resurrection? They were already sitting on thrones.Quote:
Sigh! Did you notice that there were two resurrections? Did you notice that those who were saved were in the first resurrection. Those who were unsaved were in the second.
4 And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
No. You are misreading the Scripture. Not all in the first resurrection avoided the suffering of Purgatory. Only those listed. However, those who did not live for a thousand years were also part of the first resurrection.Quote:
Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJV
So if I were to accept your argument, purgatory is only for the unsaved before they go to hell.
In addition, you seem to have consigned all in the second part of this Scripture, all in the Second death, died and went to the pit of fire. But not all in the second group were part of the Second death. Many were part of the Second Resurrection.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was no place found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne,
These were part of the Second Resurrection.
But the following:
and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. 14 And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.
Were part of the Second death.
You are reading a great deal into that Scripture:Quote:
1 John 1:9 says that Jesus paid the price for ALL sins of those who are saved.
1 John 1 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Sins are not honoring to Christ. Therefore they are burned away. Divide the Word rightly. Remember that overly emphasizing the literal interpretation kills the Spirit of the Word:Quote:
the context is that straw are works not honoring to Christ - there is yet nothing about people going through fire to pay for their own sins.
2 Corinthians 3 6 Who also hath made us fit ministers of the new testament, not in the letter, but in the spirit. For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth.
1 Peter 4 1 Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins:Quote:
So where does scripture say that we suffer to pay the rpcie for our own sin?
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:Quote:
I missed where it says that Paul suffered to pay the rpice for our sin. Please point that out to me.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Read carefully - the person who said this was not in Abraham's bosom.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Luke 16:22-23
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
NKJV
Nothing about purgatory. I read all of your comments and still nothing which speaks of purgatory and nothing which says that 1 John 1:9 is in error. I undersdtand the part about the judgment and so on and so forth, and there is nothing which says that anyone pays for their own sins in purgatory, nor did any quote that you gave say so.Quote:
Yes, I did. Did you notice that there were some people already given judgement before the first resurrection? They were already sitting on thrones.
Quite a statement after reading how you read purgatory into everything!Quote:
You are reading a great deal into that Scripture:
Did you notice this line:Quote:
1 John 1 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity
No some, not leaving some for us to cleanse ourselves from, but ALL.
I wasn't yet referring to the person in Abraham's bosom. But since you've brought it up again, where is Abraham's bosom?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
And where is Dives? Consider the following, he is in a place of suffering where he can look at his fellow souls and cry out with affection saying, "Father Abraham!" and Father Abraham does not repudiate him but responds calling him "Son....".
Where is this man? Is that a description of the hell of the damned? Does any love exist in the abode of the damned?
What is "Hades"?Quote:
Luke 16:22-23
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
NKJV
Nothing about purgatory.
I never said 1 John 1:9 is in error.Quote:
I read all of your comments and still nothing which speaks of purgatory and nothing which says that 1 John 1:9 is in error.
But that is a typical Protestant confusion. You are confusing YOUR INTERPRETATION OF 1 JOHN 1:9 with the Scripture.
It is your interpretation of that verse which I contend is in error. Not the Scripture.
But you've ignored all my question concerning the verses where St. Peter and St. Paul both explain that we pay not only for our own sins but for each others.Quote:
I undersdtand the part about the judgment and so on and so forth, and there is nothing which says that anyone pays for their own sins in purgatory, nor did any quote that you gave say so.
And you still haven't addressed any of the questions I asked.Quote:
Quite a statement after reading how you read purgatory into everything!
Did anyone say that we cleanse ourselves from our sin in Purgatory? Who?Quote:
Did you notice this line:
he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity
No some, not leaving some for us to cleanse ourselves from, but ALL.
And it is Scripture which says that one who suffered in the flesh has ceased with sin and that St. Paul rejoices in his suffering for us. So please address those questions which I asked. How can we cease with sin by suffering in the flesh? And how can St. Paul rejoice in his suffering for us? Not only that but filling in his flesh that which is WANTING in the suffering of Christ?
You keep accusing me of ignoring your questions. But I've answered every one of them. Now its your turn. Answer my questions.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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