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The Scriptures say that the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) and that if we don't hear the Church (Matt 18:17) we should be treated as heathen.
Yet some people say we should neglect the Church and listen to Scripture alone?
Why, if doing so is to disobey Scripture?
Tradition in the Orthodox Church
Some of the reasons for churches tradition. But Orthodox perspective
What Church should we listen to when they teach so many variations?
I am not saying we should not learn from the church but it is no better to believe everything they say.
The Bible also says to study to show yourself approved and not believe everything you hear but test the spirits and the doctrine
I believe it is good to go to church though
The entire Matt 18:17 is
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Mat 18:15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Which is referring to someone who has fallen away from the faith rather than the church itself.
Hi, thanks for the polite response.
For me, it's the Catholic Church.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
The reason, because I believe Jesus established one Church:
Matthew 16
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
And since I can trace the Catholic Church historically back to the Apostles, I believe It is the one that Jesus built.
Since Scripture says that the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15), I believe it is what God wants that we should do. We should believe the Chuirch.Quote:
I am not saying we should not learn from the church but it is no better to believe everything they say.
The Church teaches the faith and all who believe in this faith are members of His body, the Church:Quote:
The Bible also says to study to show yourself approved and not believe everything you hear but test the spirits and the doctrine
I believe it is good to go to church though
The entire Matt 18:17 is
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Mat 18:15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Which is referring to someone who has fallen away from the faith rather than the church itself.
Colossians 1
18 And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy:
Sincerely,
De Maria
For me I believe the Assemblies of God church is closer to the right interpretation of the Bible.
Where does Scripture say that priests shall not marry? Don't you get a bit of concern that things are read into Scripture?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The rule on the priests not to marry is not part of the doctrine, it is merely a church rule. And some priests do and can marry, There are other Rites besides the Roman Rite that allow married priests and even in the Roman Rite, pastors from the Orthodox Church, Lutheran Church, Anglican Church and independent Catholic groups have all went into the Catholic Church as married priests, we have had one of our bishops in years past before vatican 2 go back as a married Bishop. So the rule is not 100 percent only for new priests coming though for new ordinations.
It is merely a rule not part of the church doctrine.
I don't think it says that. The "discipline" which the Church imposes on those who want to be priests comes from Paul's admonition:Quote:
Originally Posted by George_1950
1 Corinthians 7 32 But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife, is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. 33 But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. 34 And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
No. But if you give me a for instance, we can look at it together.Quote:
Don't you get a bit of concern that things are read into Scripture?
As for me, I believe the idea of Sola Scriptura is read into Scripture. No where in Scripture does Scripture say that Scripture alone contains the Word of God. In fact Scripture admonishes us to keep the traditions of word and epistle. Which we interpret to mean of word and Scripture.
2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
And Scripture also tells us that the Word of God is passed on by oral teaching.
1 Thessalonians 2 13 Therefore, we also give thanks to God without ceasing: because, that when you had received of us the word of the hearing of God, you received it not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the word of God, who worketh in you that have believed.
So, based on Scripture, I see no basis for a doctrine known as Scripture alone or Sola Scriptura.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Okay lets take that for a 'for instance'
The Bible says do not add to the word. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19
It also says
"Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? [Y]e made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites."
Matthew 15:3, 6, 7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...
And he said unto them, Full well YE REJECT THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, THAT YE MAY KEEP YOUR OWN TRADITION.
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mark 7:5-9, 13
We are told in the New Testament to study the word and RIGHTLY divide it. That means don't be misinterpreting! Tell the truth about the Bible, not lies:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
Ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Do you mean that you believe the Church has added to the Word of God? Please show me where?Quote:
The Bible says do not add to the word.
As I understand it, this admonition is against adding any words to the book of Revelation. But even if it were an admonition against adding to the entire Bible, which word did the Catholic Church add to the Bible?Quote:
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19
As I have heard, Luther added the word "alone" behind the word "faith" in Romans 3:28. But I've never heard that the Catholic Church added any words.
So, could you be more specific.
The Catholic Church keeps all the Commandments and teaches us to keep them.Quote:
It also says
"Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? [Y]e made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites."
Matthew 15:3, 6, 7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...
And he said unto them, Full well YE REJECT THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, THAT YE MAY KEEP YOUR OWN TRADITION.
And Scripture tells us to keep the traditions by word and epistle(2 Thess 2:14).
So, the Catholic Church teaches us to keep the Commandments.
And to keep the traditions of God.
And to kieep the tradition of Scripture.
But to reject the traditions of men. For instance, Sola Scriptura. We believe it is a tradition of men who want to justify their denial of the Church which Scripture calls the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).
But what does it mean to divide the Word rightly. Did you know that the Word of God has a Spiritual component? Do you take this Spiritual component into account when you interpret Scripture?Quote:
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mark 7:5-9, 13
We are told in the New Testament to study the word and RIGHTLY divide it. That means don't be misinterpreting! Tell the truth about the Bible, not lies:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
2 Corinthians 3 6 Who also hath made us fit ministers of the new testament, not in the letter, but in the spirit. For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth.
Sincerely,
De Maria
The spiritual component IS the MAIN thing I take into consideration.
Traditions of man
The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII
Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (1st Timothy 3:2,5, and 12; Matthew 8:14-15).
Fish Friday -Fasting on Fridays and during Lent were imposed
Imposed by popes said to be interested in the commerce of fish. Some authorities say, began in the year 700. This is against the plain teaching of the Bible. (Matthew 15:10; 1st Corinthians 10:25; 1st Timothy 4:1-3).
Praying to Mary -The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church
(Matthew 11:28; Luke 1:46; Acts 10:25-26; 14:14-18)
Jesus did not appoint Peter to the headship of the apostles and forbade any such notion. (Luke 22:24-26; Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18; 1st Corinthians 3:11).
Nor is there any mention in Scripture, nor in history, that Peter ever was in Rome, much less that he was pope there for 25 years; Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks that "there is no real 1st century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome."
Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV
Every believer and follower of Christ is called saint in the Bible. (Read Romans 1:7; 1st Colossians 1:2).
Confession of sin to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III. in the Lateran Council
The Bible commands us to confess our sins direct to God. (Psalm 51:1-10; Luke 7:48; 15:21; 1st John 1:8-9).
Confessing to the one you offended and refers to asking forgiveness and showing repentance. Not meant for confessing to Priest.
The doctrine of Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma of faith by Council of Florence
There is not one word in the Bible that would teach the purgatory of priests. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins. (1st John 1:7-9; 2:1-2; John 5:24; Romans 8:1).
The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX
The Bible states that all men, with the sole exception of Christ, are sinners. Mary herself had need of a Savior. (Romans 3:23; 5:12; Psalm 51:5; Luke 1:30,46,47).
No help 4 you,
You quoted from the book of revelation and THAT is the book Paul referred to, NOT the bible itself which was promulgated centuries later.
Many of the apostles wrote letters and information that they were taught by Jesus or by some of the original twelve which us not in today's bible.
Those teachings and information that was written is called oral tradition which the bibke tells us that we should follow.
Yes, one of the apostles in the bible says to falllow "the traditions I have taught you".
The bible its self is a tradition; written Scripture tradition.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Tis not my own horn but I'll toot it anyway. Here's a bit I wrote about Sola Scriptura elsewhere:
About Sola Scriptura (the "Bible Alone")
Sola Scriptura is the idea that the Bible is sufficient of itself to be the only source of Christian doctrine.
If we believe in this doctrine, then we should find it in the Bible, right?
In fact, we do not.
The scripture passage so often cited by proponents of Sola Scriptura is 2 Timothy 3: 15-17, however you shall see that Paul teaches nothing of the sort:
2 Timothy 3: 15-17:
"...from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Here there is not even the slightest implication that Scripture is the sole source of doctrine. Indeed, it affirms the value of Scripture - and that it is from God (which Catholics are taught), however nothing implies that it is all we need. To say that Scripture is "useful" is one thing, but to say it is the only writing that ought to be followed is another altogether.
Not only is the idea of Sola Scriptura not found in Scripture, itself, the New Testament, in fact, teaches against it:
2 Thessalonians 2:15
" So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."
1 Corinthians 11:2
"I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you."
2 Timothy 1:13-14
"What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us."
2 Timothy 2:1-2
"You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others."
The Bible is indeed the Word of God and without error, but neither Christ nor the Bible teach such an idea as Sola Scriptura.
Catholic Truths: Ecumenical Apologetics. Sola Scriptura
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
In my opinion you can not ask this question... The church or temple would be Christ, and the ground truth again is Christ. So if you don't hear Christ the foundation of church we should be treated as heathen.. No question about that..
Has the church become a structure? Has the Sabbath become a day? Nay.. it should not be so..Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Follow scripture is walking with Christ.. He is our Sabbath.. He is our Church.. He is the Word in scripture.
~In Chirst
Yep like I said the Matt 17 is about falling away from the faith not the church (building).Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
RickJ,
Exceptionally well said.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I believe the differentiation is between Scriptural traditions and man's traditionsQuote:
Originally Posted by arcura
So we can argue throughout time about tradition but what IS backed up by scripture?
The Bible DOES warn against man made tradition taught as truth.
NoHelp4You,
Which man's tradition is the problem. Jesus and his apostles were men.
It is their tradition that I rely on, not that of others who want to discard their traditional teachings as mentioned in the bible and in later writings.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
So whose to say what traditions are acceptable and what ones are not if a church can just make traditions and doctrines. Any religion or cult should be able to make up traditions because the apostles were men and taught tradition?
I already replied above with a list.
Should we say man made church traditions and teaching. I follow in Christ Word, and in Christ teaching.
In Acts Peter told who they followed when they were brought before the council and the high priest.
KJV Acts 5:27-29 And when they had brought them, they set [them] before the council: and the high priest asked them, 28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? And, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Are you saying that all traditions of men are wrong? For instance, I don't see "altar calls" in the Scriptures. Are they wrong?Quote:
Traditions of man
And you haven't commented on the fact that you believe Sola Scriptura, yet it is nowhere to be found in Scripture. Why don't you consider that a tradition of men?
All that is true. But Christ also gave the Church authority over all men:Quote:
The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII
Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (1st Timothy 3:2,5, and 12; Matthew 8:14-15).
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
And even over heaven:
1 Corinthians 6 3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? How much more things of this world?
That isn't true. Fish are prevalent in Christian theology because Jesus Christ multiplied and because the Greek word for fish, Ichthius was used as code for Jesus Christ God.Quote:
Fish Friday -Fasting on Fridays and during Lent were imposed
Imposed by popes said to be interested in the commerce of fish.
The first letter I stands for Jesus (Greek form Iesu) and the C for Christ and thius for Theos which means God. In other words, IC Theos or JC God.
Fasting is of course in imitation of Christ fasting in the desert and in obedience to His prophecy:
Matthew 9 15 And Jesus said to them: Can the children of the bridegroom mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then they shall fast.
None of these Scriptures which you referenced speak of fasting. So please explain the commection which you make.Quote:
some authorities say, began in the year 700. This is against the plain teaching of the Bible. (Matthew 15:10; 1st Corinthians 10:25; 1st Timothy 4:1-3).
Praying is communication with God. But from antiquity it also meant to request from men. That is why we still occasionally hear a phrase such as "I pray, pass the butter." That doesn't mean you are adoring the person passing the butter. It means you are requesting the butter.Quote:
Praying to Mary -The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church (Matthew 11:28; Luke 1:46; Acts 10:25-26; 14:14-18)
Praying to to Mary for intercession is exactly that kind of prayer. And it recognizes the fact that Jesus Christ was the first to "pray" (i.e. request) from Mary things which benefited His life. He was her little boy. Therefore He, by definition had to ask her for sustenance, for hugs, kisses, and many other things which children require of their mothers.
And we imitate Jesus.
But more, we also imitate Scripture. Scripture attests that God sent an Angel with a prayer of praise to Mary:
Luke 1 26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
The Scriptures also record that a Saint also praised Mary:
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.
These are the words of Angels and Saints recorded in Scripture. And Scripture is the Word of God therefore these are the words of God who inspired them. If God wills that Angels and Saints praise Mary, why do you do less?
If Jesus Himself asked her for material goods, why would you do less?
The only way to miss this appointment is if you ignore the Spirit of the Scriptures.Quote:
Jesus did not appoint Peter to the headship of the apostles and forbade any such notion. (Luke 22:24-26; Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18; 1st Corinthians 3:11).
Let us examine the chief appointment verse.
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Note that Jesus has renamed Simon, Cephas or Rock:
John 1 42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter.
And we know that the only Rock in Scripture previously was God Himself. Therefore Jesus has given Simon the name which represents God.
Has this ever happened before? Well yes. God appointed a man before to represent Him before other men. That man was Moses.
Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
History records that St. Peter was the Bishop of Rome and was there martyred. Only recent anti-Catholic rhetoric has begun to question what has for centuries been accepted as truth.Quote:
Nor is there any mention in Scripture, nor in history, that Peter ever was in Rome,
Where? Please provide the reference so I can confirm this isn't simply made up. Otherwise, I'll chalk it up to anti-Catholic propaganda. In the meantime, lets see what another contemporary had to say:Quote:
much less that he was pope there for 25 years; Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks that "there is no real 1st century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome."
Irenaeus states: "Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, also handed down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter" (AGAINST HERESIES 3, 1, 1).
That is true. And the Church also calls every believer Priest, every believer King and every believer Saint.Quote:
Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV
Every believer and follower of Christ is called saint in the Bible. (Read Romans 1:7; 1st Colossians 1:2).
But there are certain believers who allegedly do miraculous things. And in order not to quench the Spirit, the Church tries them to see if they are good. And if they are good, they are canonized as Saints:
Mark 16 16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name they shall cast out devils: they shall speak with new tongues. 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay their hands upon the sick, and they shall recover.
No, Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sin and the Apostles passed this power on to their successors:Quote:
Confession of sin to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III. in the Lateran Council
The Bible commands us to confess our sins direct to God. (Psalm 51:1-10; Luke 7:48; 15:21; 1st John 1:8-9).
Confessing to the one you offended and refers to asking forgiveness and showing repentance. Not meant for confessing to Priest.
John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Scripture also says:
James 5 16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
Sure there is. The Bible doesn't mention the word Trinity but teaches about the Trinity. In the same way, the word Purgatory is not in the Bible but it is taught in the Bible:Quote:
The doctrine of Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma of faith by Council of Florence. There is not one word in the Bible that would teach the purgatory of priests. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins. (1st John 1:7-9; 2:1-2; John 5:24; Romans 8:1).
1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
Certainly Mary needed a Savior. But her salvation was much different than yours and ours. Let me ask you, would you rather be hit by a truck and saved by the physicians in the hospital? Or would you rather that someone warn you the truck is coming so you could avoid it?Quote:
The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX
The Bible states that all men, with the sole exception of Christ, are sinners. Mary herself had need of a Savior. (Romans 3:23; 5:12; Psalm 51:5; Luke 1:30,46,47).
Of course you would rather avoid it. And that is how Jesus saved His Mother. He saved her before she sinned.
In addition, Scripture does not say that Mary sinned. Anyone who says that is reading that into Scripture.
If you would like, we could start a detailed thread on any of those subjects. However, I believe they are beyond the scope of this thread. I'm wondering why people believe in Scripture alone when Scripture Itself says that one should believe in traditions by word and scripture and in the Church?
Sincerely,
De Maria
That is true. But then why would some say that you must obey Scripture but you need not obey the Church? If the Church is Christ then we must obey the Church. And Scripture is clear, the Church is Christ:Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:
That is why Scripture says:
Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
Do you mean an organization? Yes. Jesus made it so. The Church is the Body of Christ on earth but it is also the Kingdom of God on earth. With authority and power over our souls.Quote:
Has the church become a structure?
The Sabbath has always been the Seventh day. That is what Sabbath means. Seven. But the Sabbath also represents our resting in Christ. And yes, we enter shall enter that rest when when we rest from our labors on that day:Quote:
Has the Sabbath become a day? Nay.. it should not be so..
Hebrews 4 3 For we, who have believed, shall enter into rest; as he said: As I have sworn in my wrath; If they shall enter into my rest; and this indeed when the works from the foundation of the world were finished.
Why do you reduce Christ to Scripture? Where does Scripture reduce Christ to Scripture?Quote:
Follow scripture is walking with Christ.. He is our Sabbath.. He is our Church.. He is the Word in scripture.
Jesus is the Word of God but the Word of God is carried in our hearts, in our actions, our prayers, our ceremonies, our doctrines, in short in our Traditions. Including the Tradition of Scripture. But not in Scripture alone.
In His Peace,Quote:
~In Chirst
Sincerely,
De Maria
Would be interested in your view on altar calls.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Rick covered that pretty well.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
How does that make Peter representative of the teachings the church has initiated since his death?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Yes you can interpret it that way just as we interpret Christmas, Easter and pagan holidays as okay because the church has intertwined the beliefs. But where does Jesus or the Bible say to not eat meat on lent Fridays?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
No problem with fasting. It IS in the Bible was referring to the fish thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Blessing, praising, asking and praying are different things and the Bible even rebuked praying to Mary. The Bible says there is ONE intercessor.
So what are the teaching of Peter that we are to follow?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The scripture says the Church is Christ
So my church is Christ and it does not teach many of those traditions and doctrines
My friends church is Jehovah Witness and their church does not teach most of those traditions and doctrines.
As I understand an altar call, the minister calls for people in the congregation to come before the altar and make a commitment to Christ. I don't see that in Scripture. But perhaps you could point it out to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Rick's pretty knowledgeable. Have you been to his website?Quote:
Rick covered that pretty well.
The office of Peter has been passed on:Quote:
How does that make Peter representative of the teachings the church has initiated since his death?
Acts Of Apostles 1 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.
2 Timothy 2 2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.
Quote:
Yes you can interpret it that way just as we interpret Christmas, Easter and pagan holidays as okay because the church has intertwined the beliefs. But where does Jesus or the Bible say to not eat meat on lent Fridays?
The Bible doesn't mention that to my knowledge. It is a discipline imposed by the Church in remembrance of Christ.Quote:
No problem with fasting. It IS in the Bible was referring to the fish thing.
Really? Where and when?Quote:
Blessing, praising, asking and praying are different things and the Bible even rebuked praying to Mary.
True. But if we read the Spirit of the Scripture, the Bible is asking all to intercede:Quote:
The Bible says there is ONE intercessor.
1 Tim 2: 1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:
Romans 8 34 Who is he that shall condemn? Christ Jesus that died, yea that is risen also again; who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
We are all intercessors by God's grace. Jesus is the One Intercessor by nature.
The teachings of Christ.Quote:
so what are the teaching of Peter that we are to follow?
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
Sincerely,
De Maria
I never claimed to go by scripture only but that everything should be able to be backed by scripture. I already replied with the traditions not always being of God.
"Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? [Y]e made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites."
Matthew 15:3, 6, 7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Really? you have never seen fasting in the Bible?
Moses was the first recorded faster in the Bible.
Matthew 4:2 = And when he had fasted fourty days and fourty nights, he was
afterward an hungered.
Jesus said "when you fast" (Matthew 6:16)
Matthew 6:16 = Moreover when ye fast be not, as the hypocrites,
of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men
to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. Notice, Jesus said when
you fast he expected and expects his followers to fast.
"Then the followers of John came to Jesus and said, 'Why do we and the Pharisees often fast for a certain time, but your followers don't?' Jesus answered, 'The friends of the bridegroom are not sad while he is with them. But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and then they will fast.'" (Matthew 9:14-15).
Praying to Mary
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).
Did you read any of the verses included with my post??
I think ONE of the verses used for altar call is 'let the children come unto me' and we are God's children,
So what are the teaching of Peter that we are to follow?
The teachings of Christ.
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
That didn't tell me anything
Great! Sorry for the misunderstanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Excellent! That is, in fact, Catholic Teaching. The difference as I've noted between nonCatholics and Catholics is that nonCatholics want everything explained in Scripture. Whereas for us, doctrines must be "consistent with" Scripture.Quote:
but that everything should be able to be backed by scripture.
For instance, Purgatory and the Trinity are not expressly explained in Scripture. But they are consistent with Scripture.
Correct. "not always" being the key words. Sometimes, traditions are consistent with and in accordance with Scripture.Quote:
I already replied with the traditions not always being of God.
"Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? [Y]e made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites."
Matthew 15:3, 6, 7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
I can see where that was confusing. If you remember, we fast during Lent in imitation of Jesus fasting in the desert. I meant that I have not seen in the Bible where anyone is required to eat fish on Fridays. That is a Church discipline.Quote:
Really? You have never seen fasting in the Bible?
Unless you write them out and explain how you interpret them as I do for you, I don't go searching the Bible and trying to figure out what you mean or how you arrive at that conclusion. That is too much work.Quote:
Praying to Mary
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).
Did you read any of the verses included with my post??
I also posted Scripture for you about Mary and I explained how we interpret it. But you seem to have ignored them.
Anyway, as we understand the verse you've posted above, Jesus is the One Mediator by nature. But we are also mediators by His grace. We bring people to Christ.
James 5 19 My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: 20 He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.
In other words, no one gets to the Father but through Christ. That is why we lead everyone to Christ.
But I don't see those children required to make a commitment when they come to Christ. It seems totally unrelated to the practice of altar calls.Quote:
I think ONE of the verses used for altar call is 'let the children come unto me' and we are God's children,
And yet I don't see anything wrong with it. It is a doctrine of men which does not contradict Scripture nor God's Commandments. The fact that it is not in Scripture does not automatically make it wrong.
An Apostle is one who is sent by Christ to teach what Christ taught.Quote:
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
That didn't tell me anything
Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Did you think that we follow Peter because he taught something other than what Christ taught?
No.
84 The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei), contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 84
Sincerely,
De Maria
Based on some evidence you arrived at the conclusion that the various Churches are Christ. But the Bible says that Christ is not divided. Christ is one. And He made one Church which taught one faith:Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Ephesians 4 4 One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling.
Ephesians 4 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
Romans 12 5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
So, based on that evidence I searched for the one Church which is considered the most ancient. Since Christ only made one Church, that must be the one which Christ made.
That is why I believe in the Catholic Church.
Sincerely,
De Maria
So you are saying Catholic church is the ONE and only church??
That is your believe by what you have been taught as Cred0 would say.
I have not seen where you can back up a lot of what you believe with the Bible.
You seem to simply trust what the leaders of the church have declared and you take it as the gospel truth. I see too many contradictions in what you believe and I have pointed SOME of them out.
That is what I believe after studying all the evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I admit I was taught. After all, it isn't as though I knew Jesus when He was walking the earth with the Apostles.Quote:
That is your believe by what you have been taught as Cred0 would say.
Is there something wrong with being taught? Weren't you taught?
I thought I did a pretty good job.Quote:
I have not seen where you can back up a lot of what you believe with the Bible.
Since Scripture says that the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) and I believe Scripture. I have no problem believing the Church.Quote:
You seem to simply trust what the leaders of the church have declared and you take it as the gospel truth.
Yes, you did point out what you saw as contradictions. I sought to explain why they aren't. If the explanation was not convincing, so be it.Quote:
I see too many contradictions in what you believe and I have pointed SOME of them out.
Sincerely,
De Maria
The explanations were not convincing because the topics themselves were not backed up with the Bible but that just because you and the Catholic Church believes they are the only true church that Popes can make rules throughout the years even if they do not line up with the Bible.
Fish, altar calls, the Trinity and some other things have some Biblical basis argued for or against by various churches, but I do not see many of the other things fitting in what the Bible says. In fact contrary to what the Bible teaches.
I believe I did back them up with Scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I believe they do line up with Scripture. And I believe I have shown how.Quote:
but that just because you and the Catholic Church believes they are the only true church that Popes can make rules throughout the years even if they do not line up with the Bible.
Well, you claim not to believe in the Bible alone. And that is good because I think that doctrine is definitely against what the Bible teaches.Quote:
Fish, altar calls, the Trinity and some other things have some Biblical basis argued for or against by various churches, but I do not see many of the other things fitting in what the Bible says. In fact contrary to what the Bible teaches.
But, I'm willing if you are, to compare my Catholic beliefs to your Assembly of God doctrines and see which line up with Scripture.
For instance, do you believe that the Eucharist is the Flesh and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ? I do.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I did not say I believe everything that the Assemblies of God teach but that they seem closest to what I believe the Bible teaches.
I am not even trying to argue which is right the trinity or not, the eucharist or symbol of the flesh and blood or anything like which do you believe and not believe but where do you see it backed up by the Bible.
What verses prove the church is Catholic?
What verses say it is okay to pray through Mary?
What verses back up the rosary?
NOHelp4u,
That is not what I meant.
I was speaking of Jesus Christ's teachings all of which are not in the bible as the bible its self tells us.
The apostles Jesus taught by word and deed taught others those things and they were recorded in letters and documents which were not included in the bible. They are often referred to as writings of The Church Fathers or oral tradition.
Discussions about who taught where, what they taught, about baptism, about Mary, about Easter, about when Jesus was born and much more including the Apostles' Creed are in those documents.
A list of those documents can be found at this site
Early Church Fathers
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Then I think the Catholic doctrine of the authority of the Church fits Bible teaching better than your attitude towards your Church which seems completely unbiblical. Unless you can show me a Scripture which says you should not believe the Church.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Scripture says:
1 Timothy 3 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
This is also what the Catholic Church teaches. Therefore, since the Catholic Church teaching lines up with Scripture. I believe it.
And what I'm trying to do is level the playing field. You claim that our beliefs don't line up with Scripture. So, then show me your beliefs in Scripture. Lets compare and see which line up better.Quote:
I am not even trying to argue which is right the trinity or not, the eucharist or symbol of the flesh and blood or anything like which do you believe and not believe but where do you see it backed up by the Bible.
There are many. The Church described in Scripture gives us our daily bread. The Catholic Church does so today:Quote:
what verses prove the church is Catholic?
Luke 11 3 Give us this day our daily bread.
Acts Of Apostles 2 46 And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart;
Does the Assemblies of God break bread daily?
The Catholic Church has priests who accept your confession and forgive your sins:
John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Does the Assemblies of God?
The Catholic Church teaches prayer in the name of Prophets and Saints:
Matthew 10 41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive the reward of a prophet: and he that receiveth a just man in the name of a just man, shall receive the reward of a just man.
Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me,.
Does the Assemblies of God teach that prayer in the name of a Prophet is efrcacious?
Along with those above about praying in the name of prophets, we also have the verse where Jesus give His mother to us:Quote:
what verses say it is okay to pray through Mary?
John 19 26 When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. 27 After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.
The Bible condemns vain repetition. But the Rosary is an example of effective repetition. It is a prayer composed of Scripture verses and Scripture meditiations. And yes, they are repetitive. Jesus said:Quote:
what verses back up the rosary?
5 And he said to them: Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go to him at midnight, and shall say to him: Friend, lend me three loaves,
Luke 11:6 Because a friend of mine is come off his journey to me, and I have not what to set before him. 7 And he from within should answer, and say: Trouble me not, the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee. 8 Yet if he shall continue knocking, I say to you, although he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend; yet, because of his importunity, he will rise, and give him as many as he needeth. 9 And I say to you, Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.
Therefore Jesus wants you to repeat your prayers persistently.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Receiving prophets and Mary is not the same as praying to them.
I do not see where you get that.
It meant receiving them into your house and receiving their teaching
De Maria,
That was excellent!
Don't forget that Jesus founded what He call My Church with Peter as it's first leader and the bible called it The Church which name was later changed to The Catholic Church to identify it from others who tried to call themselves a church.
That is biblical and actual hisorty.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
The words, "in the name of a prophet" do not insinuate receiving into your house. They insinuate making a petition to God in their name.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I would love to see the exact history on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Thanks Arcura. I'm sleepy so I'm going to bed now. But I look forward to reading more of your messages in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Good night and God be with you,
Sincerely,
De Maria
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