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Are christians averse to researching anything that would contradict the bible no matter how true they might find it to be upon reading ? Every thinking christian owes it to themselves to research every source of possible contradiction, if for no other reason than being able to refute the contradictory material. Here are two good sites that every christian of intelligence ought to look into: God vs. the Bible & The Age of Reason.
Religion is faith/belief... just what a person choses to believe regardless of facts and knowledge. If Christians were interested in facts, they would reject ignorance and learn about sciences of all kinds.
This Christian is not averse to "knowlegde." This Christian has a doctorate and deals with life and death every day at work.
Your game is evident.
You come and pose these questions to try to sway believers.
Let me ask you this.
How does science explain the origins of dna. Life from non-life?
How does science explain the big bang?
How does science explain HOPE?
How does science explain LOVE?
Does science provide this to its belivers?
Or does science also concur with the fact that we will all die?
That this life is it. Survival of the fittest and all.
Does science explain suffering any better than religion?
How does a deist have any HOPE in believing that the creator just created everything and left everything to "nature."
Grace and Peace
Seeing as how we believe that the Bible is the true Word of God, not conradicting in any way, shape or form, untrue, or wrong on any level we have no need to study your supposed contradictions. We would rather spend our time studying the Bible to learn all we can and continue growing spiritually. I have to agree with inthebox.. your focus is on trying to sway believers, or making them look the fool. Why aren't you better spending your time growing in your faith and studying your beliefs to gain as much knowledge as you can. The only time I like to study what someone states is contradictions is to get a better understanding. Usually so called contradictions are centered on the tough scriptures. It doesn't hurt to study and get a better understanding of those scriptures. You know deist.. the "contradiction" you mentioned in Ezekiel in one of your other posts had never been brought to my attention before. Upon studying it last night God revealed the truth to me. Though it wasn't acceptable for you or a "poor explaination" in your opinion is not the point. I put it out there. I studied it, after a while of reading several times and cross studying I understood. I let you know what I learned. Whether you except it or not is no longer my concern. I did what I could, what I think God would have me do. It is not a Christians job to argue.. matter of fact God doesn't want us to do that. But at the same time we should not ingnore people's questions and let them them go on thinking what we believe to be incorrectly. Whether they end up agreeing, learning, or seeing is up to them, but at least we did what we could. Know this deist... God cannot reveal truth to you if your learning experience of the Bible is with a one sided mind. How can you see truth if in your mind there is none?
That's just it.. it is fact to us. It can't be undeniably proven, but it is proven to us through God. We believe in something, we practice it, we study it to gain as much knowledge as we can... that is far from being ingnorant. It's actaully quite the opposite whether you agree with the material being learned or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Choux
Focusing your attention on something you do not believe in, instead of the things that you do is ignorance.
There is nothing wrong with learning about all things, but you are better off focusing more and learning more about the things you do believe in.
A lawyer focusing most of their learning attention on how to perform surgery instead of law.. not too smart eh?
Christians aren't close minded nor ignorant because they don't want to focus their attention on your "contradictions". They're smart not to.
I'm a deist not an atheist. I believe God created the universe. Or more specifically I believe God created the original singularity that exploded in the big bang to form the universe. Everything else, by intention of God, evolved from that through natural laws that God also intended. I don't believe in original sin, or that human suffering stems from it. Suffering is just a part of living in a world where creatures live & die, it is neither good nor evil. I believe mental states such as hope & love evolved along with everything else as a part of the human mind that also evolved. And it is a fact that christians & muslims try to sway people everyday. That's the reason for Jesus' Great Commission, "Go ye into all the world & preach the gospel to every creature". Christians are trying to sway people when they go out on visitation to witness door to door. Muslims are trying to sway people everyday to convert to Islam. But my main purpose is not to sway, but to get people to think, to question, to quest. Deism is a thinking philosophy. Did God give us the gift of reason & a rational mind, only that we should reject it, not use it, & just accept things on faith without questioning ?Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
To me only doubt causeth reasoning
I have to tell you a fact, it is a muslims duty to remind people IF the reminder benefits.Quote:
Originally Posted by deist
And we are not doing any swaying of minds/hearts one way or another .It is by the will and mercy of the Almighty that anyone is guided.
No ones heart is in our hands to force it to believe one way or another.
When the Almighty guides to His light no one can take a person away from it, and when the light is taken away from a person then there is no one who can guide him back to it except the Almighty.
Doubt causeth reasoning ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marily
From freedictionary.com... Reason: the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.
Are you saying here that you lack this capacity ?
To each of your questions - the same answer:Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
Not yet with certainty perhaps, but be patient - it will happen.
People don't "believe" science like religious people "believe" their religion. There's a huge difference, science requires itself to prove things before they are believed.
Religious people continuously use things that are currently unknown to try to provide reasons for God. Why try to prove something by saying the other person cannot explain it satisfactorarily either. That doesn't prove you're right.
Find some better reasons for us to take you seriously. It doesn't take much thought to say "God did it" now does it?
If I say there is a purple monster living in your house that you will never find - prove me wrong. If you can't then I must be right - yes?
Here's a question for you, why did God do this? Why create the universe, earth and everything on it?
Why did God do this? Here's my answer... the same reason my daugther draws a picture of her family and puts it on the fridge 1) she loves what is in the picture 2) she is proud of it 3) she created it for other people to enjoyQuote:
Originally Posted by StuMegu
We are here to worship a living God and enjoy the things he has provided.
Answer the flip side... if God didn't do any of this Why are we here and to what end?
In my opinion, there would be no reason to live, if it was all a coincidence.
So, what your saying is that God had nothing to love (before the universe etc)so he created something for him to love? You don't hear the lonely God explanation very often but I'll admit it has merit.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
2, He can't have created something because he was proud of it - that's just in the wrong order.
3, I see this one, He created the universe and everything to show off to his other Godly friends. Now that's a good reason! Tell me more about all the other Gods that our God is trying to impress by creating the universe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuMegu
Thank you for analyzing the entire analogy and not getting the "big" picture. And also did you forget or miss the question I asked you?
Back to the original question I asked that started this thread. Are christians (& muslims for that matter) averse to researching anything that might bring their view of the bible (or the quran) into question ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by deist
The seed of doubt can be easily implanted into the minds of anyone including believers strong in their faith... for that reason I am skeptical to hold any amount of creditability to any research that looks to put the Bible in question.
Could you be specific on what you mean by averse?
Give a list of something's that you have in mind.
If you don't check out the sources that claim to put the bible in doubt how can you know they are in error ? And if you don't know what arguments they present how can you refute them ?Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
Quote:
Originally Posted by deist
I can refute them because I have a Biblical world view to refute them with. I know that the sources are in error because it comes from man with the intention of discrediting God and the Bible.
I'll rephrase the question. Are christians or muslims disinclined (averse) to research anything that might bring the bible or the quran into question ?Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
I submit that the bible comes from man also, & is interpreted by man.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
It was written by man but authored by God. I hold it as true and accurate in all regards!Quote:
Originally Posted by deist
I accept the Quran as the word of the Almighty without question or doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by deist
So there is no question of me trying to disprove it or to disprove it is the word of the Almighty.
Now if you have questions regarding the Quran and Islam, if possible I will find answers for them (I say this because I am just a muslim and not an Islamic scholar).
But when you ask do bear in mind that a lot of belief in the Quran involves faith in the Almighty and you will not understand this nor will you accept it.
Another thing is that you are already prejudiced against the Quran and hence whatever I say, you will counteract with your comments about how it is not proof.So when you do ask questions keep an open mind and read to understand even if you do not accept.
And if you wish to ask questions in Islam, please use the appropriate topic and start a new thread.
See my question under the thread on Revelation or hearsay, & the thread Failed prophecy.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
Why are we here? - No reason - chance, inevtibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
Now that I have answered your question please answer mine - Why did God do it?
Or another, what did god do before he made the universe?
Or another, why is the universe so big? What else does it contain - other worlds with other people on like you and me?
Please don't use the "big picture" excuse with me, it really doesn't work. Either answer the question or don't.
Can I ask another question to everyone out there please?
If I were to choose a religion from a neutral view point which should I choose?
Of course they are adverse to research. They have been brainwashed and told for centuries not to empower themselves and instead believe what they are told. They are like soldiers just believing what they are told and contradicting themselves all the time because they are more involved with the shiny badges that represent their religions, and they have forgotten that to be spiritual means to also do spiritual things, create spiritual events and address spiritual concerns that will empower and educate the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by deist
That never happens, what usually happens is that a religion goes into a village and forces their religion upon another at the expense of the villages cultural ideas and customs. If it hurts no one, it can't be that bad. If its creating great havoc in the world, its something that needs to END.
These types are as common as the penny Im afraid. For all the good they think they do, they are nearly always hypocritical. I don't have the time to write a thesis on the subject, but it's a very old one for me.
Of course it was, that's why we are in such a mess these days and always have been. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by deist
The most sane quotes come from Jesus, mostly everyone else in there sounds like an egotistical madman whose number one obsession is to believe they are right and everyone else is wrong. Its quite sickening and immature.
Of course. There is no room for doubt in that belief thought construct. If they began to question their beliefs which are so entwined with their identity, they feel in their subconscious that they would then lose their identity and not know who they are. The ideas of spirituality that they are told to accept usually begins early on in their lives, by the time they grow up, they are too mind controlled to do any independent research. They have become one with their doctrines and dogma's. This is why there is so much war, everyone thinks they are right, that they are spiritual, and their idea of spirituality is to kill each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by deist
That's SOME spirituality isn't it? Its insane. Its all about ego. In their relentless pursuit for "the truth" they forgot to be spiritual.
They are constantly lamblasted with ideas of "faith" and very few real answers that will work in their personal lives and in the world. Its embarrassing to be around one as I always feel like Im around a little child who never grew up.
This is not to say Im not spiritual, I have had incredible visions, dreams that came true etc. I am not part of religion or atheism, I do my own fearless research and I have a conscious working mind. :eek:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cerulean
Who else matters but JESUS! He is the "way the truth and the light, no man comes to the Father except through Him"
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuMegu
I think many people have a big problem with "religion" and I don't blame them. They also have a problem with the hypocrisy in the church, with religious leaders, and with christians in general; and I don't blame them for that either. Religion is a set of beliefs that can or cannot be in-line with what Jesus taught. Jesus did not spend as much time with religious leaders as he did with his friends or in prayer with his Father. He many times said for "His Father's will to come and be done on earth" not the will of the religious in power or a certain religious philosophy. So I believe your "religion" should be your personal relationship with God the Father through belief and trust in Jesus our savior; nothing more nothing less
So, do you need God to make you do that then? Would you be a bad person if it wasn't for God watching your every move?Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
To me, compassion and love do not depend on a God to threaten me into it.
If, when I die, it turns out I was wrong and there is a God, will I go to hell just for not believing in him? I think that I am a fairly good human being, does that not count for anything in the final reckoning?
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuMegu
God is not an evil commander in the sky waiting to punish you. I know a lot of people have that view for whatever reason or experience. We all face trials and pain in our life but don't blame it on God when it occurs. Find the good in your experiences and grow from them.
Wow! I find it absolutely amazing that you follow this God then, He places NO value on good deeds, only belief. As you yourself say, good deeds will not get someone into heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
When you die I hope you are both happy together - I will not support such a selfish God who takes brainless followers over people who do good deeds for the sake of it. You should be ashamed of your religion for such rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuMegu
You do not seem understand the concept... You are only saved by God's grace, if you believe and trust in Him. Good works are not required for that criteria but of course He does place value on good works. The two greatest commandments from God are 1) Love God with all your heart, soul, mind 2) love your neighbor as yourself... I don't know about you but loving people is a good work and something I have to try really hard to do in many cases. We as believers will be rewarded in heaven for the works we do here on earth.
And I am not ashamed of my beliefs and I am glad you are amazed that I follow this God because so am I!
You don't seem to understand what you are advocating. That all good people from the entire globe (apart from those who follow your religion) should go to hell for eternity.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
HELL!! For all eternity!! For what crime - not believing in God.
How do you people sleep at night?
If you all believe that this is good and just then I just hope you never serve on a jury.
You don't seem to understand what you are advocating. That all good people from the entire globe (apart from those who follow your religion) should go to hell for eternity.
Advocating hell. We're not in favor of hell or people going to hell. It's the exact opposite actually. It is not our choice whether people go to Heaven or hell... never was.
HELL!!! for all eternity!!! for what crime - not believing in God.
What you should be wondering is why someone who doesn't believe in God should go to Heaven. It's like your employer paying you for not working. Besides, if someone does not believe in God then Heaven and hell does not exist for them.
How do you people sleep at night?
Do you think we don't care? It is a sad thing that there will be many people that will go to hell, even good people. If we are doing what we are supposed to do then we will be trying to win over as many souls to Christ as we can. You do what you can and let God take care of the rest. No one could sleep at night if they dwelled on it. It's no different than dwelling on all the bad in the world... cancers, AIDS, child abuse, poverty, etc. How do you sleep at night? Because you don't dwell on it.
If you all believe that this is good and just then i just hope you never serve on a jury.
No true Christian would believe hell is good. It is because of our belief that we ask for salvation. It is through God's grace that we are saved. And it is because of all three that God gives us eternal life/Heaven.
Christians don't have to chase after the truth, and why research contradictions when you know you have the truth. Why do we know we have the truth, because Jesus told us. He frequently said I tell you the truthQuote:
Originally Posted by deist
Wait, what? :confused: Why research contradictions when you know you have the truth? That makes no sense...Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
If you (not you, but the general "you") claim the bible is without error, and there are no contradictions, then how can you explain away obvious contradictions? And what does the "truth" have to do with anything? If I say, "The sky is blue" and you say, "The sky is purple", one of us is right, and the other is wrong. So how can two portions of the bible, which contradict one another, both be right? How do you find the "truth" when you are being told two different things? Doesn't logic tell you one must be right and the other is wrong? And thus, the bible is not without error?
I'll even point to a discrepancy:
John 19:17; Jesus carries his own cross
John 19 King James Bible
Mark 15:21-22; Simon carries Jesus' cross
Mark 15 King James Bible
I've got more, if you want 'em.
I find it hilarious when people make comments like this. It is assuming that Christians walk around afraid to question. Like we're afraid we are going to see something to shake our faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by deist
I am very sure of my faith and what I believe. I have no problem reading other things, I find some things funny and some things I explore a little further. With God all things are possible, so it all comes back to HIM. Perhaps people such as yourself should not be so afraid you might believe and open your heart to what God has for you.
You are only considering this as an ether/or. It is actually both. The verses do not say at what point Simon was forced into taking the cross. Nor do the verses mean that Jesus carried the cross the whole way. John omits the details of Simon being forced to carry the cross. That does not mean that he didn’t. Mark does not say that Jesus carried the cross himself for a while. That does not mean that he didn’t.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
For example: What did I do today? I woke up and went to work. After work I had supper and now I am at my computer. This is all true.
Now I will tell you about my day again. I woke up, took a shower, had breakfast, and drove to work. After work I drove home, on the way home I stopped by the store and picked up some food for supper. This is all true as well.
These two stories do not contradict each other.
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