I believe that no man or women should ever be allowed to serve as a minster or a leader of any church that represents God. Why?

To be frank, the Bible condemns homosexuality. No amount of verbal hocus-pocus can make scriptures like Leviticus 18:22 and Romans 1:26, 27 disappear.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Mankind has become very tolerant and will make all kinds of excuses and take the Bible and twist it to fit what they want it to, so as to do their own thing. They even go as far as saying that if a Christian is to love all people then they need to love the gay person. As a Christian myself, I do love all people including homosexuals, I though hate their behavior and their choice to go against God's laws. I am able to separate the person from their behavior or actions. God does not approve of homosexuality but He also does not approve of a Christian treating anyone harshly or to hate them in any way. I also feel that gays are welcome into the congregation I attend, but they will be asked to respect God's house by obeying His commandments and laws about proper conduct. A gay person would not be serving as a leader in the congregation that I attend. How could they? They are suppose to be representing the supreme Sovereign of the universe. They can not serve God and Satan. The Bible forcefully admonishes, "O you lovers of God hate what is bad." Psalm 97:10 Homosexuals who want to serve God must do so on his terms, not there own.

If Leaders in the Congregation of God allows these gays to enter into a leader position and to try to teach others to do God's will and they themselves are not obedient to God's laws, and they approve of homosexuals becoming priest and leaders of their church, this is detestable in God's eyes and I truly feel sorry for the future generations. Gay or homosexual behavior is not approved by God nor should their conduct be welcomed in any place of worship of those claiming to serve God.

As a minister of God, I welcome all persons gay, straight, thieves, murders and sinners, but once you enter the congregation of God, all the conduct that God does not approve of will never be welcomed. We can not serve the God of the Bible and not obey his laws against homosexuality. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroy in Lots day. Why? Homosexuality was one of the reasons. One reason I don't go to the churches of this world is because of this very thing. As a Christian, Jesus Christ is the head of the Congregation. Those who take the lead in the congregation must become workers for the members of the congregation, under Christ. There are requirements that those taking the lead in the congregational affairs must adhere to. Notice what the Bible says these qualification are. Here is God's view on the matter.

I quote:
(1 Timothy 3:1-7) 3 That statement is faithful. If any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. 2The overseer should therefore be irrepressible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 4a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; 5(if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God's congregation?) 6not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil. 7Moreover, he should also have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the Devil.

(Titus 1:5-9) 5For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might correct the things that were defective and might make appointments of older men in city after city, as I gave you orders; 6if there is any man free from accusation, a husband of one wife, having believing children that were not under a charge of debauchery nor unruly. 7For an overseer must be free from accusation as God's steward, not self-willed, not prone to wrath, not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, not greedy of dishonest gain, 8but hospitable, a lover of goodness, sound in mind, righteous, loyal, self-controlled, 9holding firmly to the faithful word as respects his [art of] teaching, that he may be able both to exhort by the teaching that is healthful and to reprove those who contradict.

1 Thess. 4:3-8: "This is what God wills ... that you abstain from fornication; that each one of you should know how to get possession of his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in covetous sexual appetite such as also those nations have which do not know God; that no one go to the point of harming and encroach upon the rights of his brother in this matter, because God is one who exacts punishment for all these things, just as we told you beforehand and also gave you a thorough witness. For God called us, not with allowance for uncleanness, but in connection with sanctification. So, then, the man that shows disregard is disregarding, not man, but God, who puts his holy spirit in you."

Eph. 5:5: "No fornicator or unclean person or greedy person-which means being an idolater-has any inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and of God."
People do change though and many who used to practice homosexuality are now Christians and serving God and obeying his laws. They learn God's way of Cleanliness and they have changed their ways to gain God's approval and with His approval comes many blessings. You see, God is love and he does forgive, if we choose to obey Him and do things his way, not the way of this world. God wants his followers and servants to be clean because He is clean. Anyone overseeing the Christian congregation therefore will have to be clean in God's eyes.

Comments?
Take care,
Hope12

Those that live a life style where they are living with someone they are not married to, should not be a leader in a church.

So they can not be living unmarried to a man or women and be a leader.
Also marriage is considered by the church as a union of a man and women, so that leads gays out.

Those chuches that allow this are no longer truly Christian.

Religion is in a bind, especially Roman Catholicism, because being a Minister or Priest attracts male homosexuals, just like hair dressing and interior decorating. Always the scandals as the church members get outraged when their minister turns out to be gay.

In the American Catholic Church it is estimated that 50% or so of priests are homosexuals.
Being a minister is not an attractive job for a healthy heterosexual male in Catholic America; there is a shortage and priests are imported from Latin America and other countries such as India.

I have never seen statistics on FundiEv Christian churches, but there is always some kind of sexual scandal in the news, not necessarily over homosexuality. Recently, we had Ted Haggard seeing a homosexual prostitute. After he left his large mega church, the membership dropped precipitously. Who can forget Swaggert, Bakker and the others? FundEv ministers who are ambitious are able to make an extremely good living blowing smoke and staging mirrors so their faithful are lulled to sleep.

It would be wonderful if there were more Billy Grahams, but that era has passed, unfortunately.

As commissioner to Presbytery, I was part of voting down ordaining any not living in fidelity in marriage or chastity several years ago. Unfortunately the church leaders are allowing homosexuals to flout the constitution.

If enforced, it would also deny most lay leadership roles in the PCUSA

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Originally Posted by labman

As commissioner to Presbytery, I was part of voting down ordaining any not living in fidelity in marriage or chastity several years ago. USA

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In other words Labman, you would not disqualify a person from being ordained (or being your own minister) if that person was homosexual, but chaste. Well, that's a good starting point.

I guess someone here has to stick up for the liberal wings of the various US denominations that have ordained openly gay clergy - it may as well be me. I understand that anyone on this board whose religious views are driven by a belief in the literal interpretation of the english language version(s) of the bible is not likely to be persuaded. However, a few points to ponder:

As I believe Labman would agree, one can be gay and non-sexually active and still be ordained and could make a terrific minister or priest. Anyone disagree?

So let's address the issue of ordaining homosexuals who are in active, committed, monogamous, and loving relationships - that's where most of the controversy lies. The english language translations for many of the biblical passages regarding homosexuality inevitably are about male prostitution and promiscuousness. The concept of sexual orientation as we understand it today wasn't even considered back when the bible was formulated - for example, any male-on-male sexual activity in those days was considered a form of prostitution because people who did this there were inevitably involved with multiple partners, performing in orgies, etc. The bible is virtually silent on the issue of homosexuality between committed, monogamous, and loving partners.

Much of the argument in the liberal denominations in support of ordaining openly gay clergy has been based on a model of balancing (a) scripture, (b) reason, and (c) traditions in determining what the church should do on this issue. If you believe that only (a) applies, then there's no reason to be against slavery (which no where does the bible condemn) or child labor, or supportive of women's rights, at least from a religious perspective. The more liberal denominations have tended to believe that the bible should be read and understand in terms of broad themes, such as loving one's neighbor, forgiveness of sins, etc. and not so much word-for-word analysis of passages written by men from cultures long ago. These denominations do not believe the bible is inerrant, especially as translated into english by men who most certainly had their own biases. They also firmly believe that homosexuality and heterosexuality are not choices, but are part of who each of us are, and so to treat homosexuality as inherently evil is counter to the notion that we are all God's children. And once again, to be clear, we are talking only about people who are in committed, monogamous, and loving relationships, which is a concept the bible does not address.

I'm all for equal rights (because of one of my best friends) but in all honesty, no, a person who is gay/lesbian should not be aloud to be a church leader. It is a sin and it would set a bad example unto the rest of the congregation.

Oh the intolerance.

Justifies why many don't belong to churches / groups who judge so ignorantly.

They have their own relationships.

Definitely agree

YESS!!! YOU FREAKIN ROCK!!! SOMEBODY THROW YOU A COOKIE!!! So many time i want people to understand that just because you are homosexual does not mean you are any worse than anyone else. we have all fallen short and the wages of ANY sin is death... but you have to make the committment to change, out of love. Freaking bonus points to you

The Bible has a definition for chastity which makes certain lifestyles incompatible with its definition. In short, a murderer, habitual, thief, habitual liar, adulterer, fornicator, idol worshipper, habiutual sloth, a person who is habitiually violent, or even one who entertains evil thoughts though he doesn't carry them out doesn't qualify as being virtuous. Now, we can disagree, ignore, and go our own way. But what we cannot say is that the Bible approves of these behaviors. Only that WE don't see it the way that the Bible sees it and bvased on that we will classify these behaviors as we see fit.

As for intolerance, the Bible doesn't describe God as tolerant of all behavior. It is very specific in telling us that he does view certain behaviors as wrong. Actually, only an idiot would be tolerant of all behaviors since many behaviors are violations of the human rights of others and toleration of them would lead to anarchy.

Quote:

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Also marriage is considered by the church as a union of a man and women, so that leads gays out.

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You mean single gay people who are chaste, cannot be a model or leader, in the christian church?? You mean they can't have a same sex roommate either??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ebaines

In other words Labman, you would not disqualify a person from being ordained (or being your own minister) if that person was homosexual, but chaste. Well, that's a good starting point.

I guess someone here has to stick up for the liberal wings of the various US denominations that have ordained openly gay clergy - it may as well be me. I understand that anyone on this board whose religious views are driven by a belief in the literal interpretation of the english language version(s) of the bible is not likely to be persuaded. However, a few points to ponder:

As I believe Labman would agree, one can be gay and non-sexually active and still be ordained and could make a terrific minister or priest. Anyone disagree?

So let's address the issue of ordaining homosexuals who are in active, committed, monogamous, and loving relationships - that's where most of the controversy lies. The english language translations for many of the biblical passages regarding homosexuality inevitably are about male prostitution and promiscuousness. The concept of sexual orientation as we understand it today wasn't even considered back when the bible was formulated - for example, any male-on-male sexual activity in those days was considered a form of prostitution because people who did this there were inevitably involved with multiple partners, performing in orgies, etc. The bible is virtually silent on the issue of homosexuality between committed, monogamous, and loving partners.

Much of the argument in the liberal denominations in support of ordaining openly gay clergy has been based on a model of balancing (a) scripture, (b) reason, and (c) traditions in determining what the church should do on this issue. If you believe that only (a) applies, then there's no reason to be against slavery (which no where does the bible condemn) or child labor, or supportive of women's rights, at least from a religious perspective. The more liberal denominations have tended to believe that the bible should be read and understand in terms of broad themes, such as loving one's neighbor, forgiveness of sins, etc., and not so much word-for-word analysis of passages written by men from cultures long ago. These denominations do not believe the bible is inerrant, especially as translated into english by men who most certainly had their own biases. They also firmly believe that homosexuality and heterosexuality are not choices, but are part of who each of us are, and so to treat homosexuality as inherently evil is counter to the notion that we are all God's children. And once again, to be clear, we are talking only about people who are in committed, monogamous, and loving relationships, which is a concept the bible does not address.

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Okay first of all to address your statement on ministers who are not acting out on that impulse... the notion that for instance "Once an alcoholic always an alcoholic" or anything else, is a secular point of view. And you can not combine the secular viewpoint with the christian.

If they are no longer maintaining a gay stance then they must think its wrong, therefore, have repented, therefore as God has forgiven them so should the congregation and they are no longer homosexual.

Also... the notion that homosexuality is something people are born with... secular viewpoint.
People are all born with a sin nature.
Some people are more likely to want to steal, some to lie, some to rebellion... and one in the same, some people are born with the tendency to want to be homosexual... but sorry, its not a gene.

As with anything, you can fight off any of those desires... but everything in society today revolves around accepting and acknowledging your wants and desires. If you want to have sex on the first date... GO For iT! Just make sure to wear a condom. If you want to get plastered at a party go for it... just don't drink and drive.

Im sad for the people. People who are brought up to believe such things therefore making it so much more difficult to acknowledge the fact that so many of these things are in fact wrong.
They continue to hurt themselves and get more and more violent and or depressed, but "its not what they are doing, its a chemical condition that requires medication to fix. not prayer nor repentance, jsut more and more pills."

God made the laws that he did to keep us from pain... because he loves us and no matter how much you want to contort the bible or say that it was meant differently, he told the writers of the bible what to write so even the most belligerent or unlearned people could understand and follow, but only if they want to.

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Originally Posted by Starman

The Bible has a definition for chastity which makes certain lifestyles incompatible with its definition. In short, a murderer, habitual, thief, habitual liar, adulterer, fornicator, idol worshipper, habiutual sloth, a person who is habitiually violent, or even one who entertains evil thoughts though he doesn't carry them out doesn't qualify as being virtuous.

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Is it your position then that church leaders must be virtuous, per this definition? Do you know of any church leaders who measure up? I would bet that all people have had "lust in their hearts" (to quote Jimmy Carter) at some time in their lives - clergy included. I submit that this doesn't disqualify a person from being ordained. What's important is how one choses to act (or not) on these "impulses." So, I ask - as a first step: what is it about a person with homosexual tendencies who is chaste that in your view would disqualify that person from being an outstanding church leader? And would you also disqualify a heterosexual who has an occasional fantasy regarding the opposite sex?

There is a difference between fantasyzing and doing...

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Originally Posted by Canada_Sweety

There is a difference between fantasyzing and doing...

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Correct - so you therefore agree that a chaste homosexual person would be OK as a church leader, right?

Hmmm... there is still a difference between a homosexual and a heterosexual. But I'm begining to see what you mean..ish.

SnaveLeber the only difference between a true christian a sinner is the Holy Ghost:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ebaines

Is it your position then that church leaders must be virtuous, per this definition? Do you know of any church leaders who measure up? I would bet that all people have had "lust in their hearts" (to quote Jimmy Carter) at some time in their lives - clergy included. I submit that this doesn't disqualify a person from being ordained. What's important is how one choses to act (or not) on these "impulses." So, I ask - as a first step: what is it about a person with homosexual tendencies who is chaste that in your view would disqualify that person from being an outstanding church leader? And would you also disqualify a heterosexual who has an occasional fantasy regarding the opposite sex?

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No one measures up. The only reason we are accepted is based on Jesus Ransom sacrifice. However, the stipulations for church leadership are found in the Bible itself
And are very clear and they disqualify a practicing homosexual. That you suggest they be ignored shows that you hold the Bible in little esteem. Which of course is again your privilege. But please allow others their right to respect the biblical view.


There are countless scriptures I could show you which encourage us to keep our minds free from evil thoughts. But since my computer doesn't permit it at present that will have to wait.

(1 Timothy 3:1-7) 3 That statement is faithful. If any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. 2The overseer should therefore be irrepressible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 4a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; 5(if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God's congregation?) 6not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil. 7Moreover, he should also have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the Devil.



From the op's biblical reference , I do not believe a homosexual should be church leader.
But not only does it speak to the issue of homosexuality, which everyone gets their underclothes in a wad about, but also about other character traits.

I certainly would not qualify, because I've been divorced [? Husband of one wife - or is that in reference to polygamy] and most of the time my kids are too rambunctious.




Grace and Peace

Well everyone knows that there aren't many people who can even qualify as it is. The people who do were chosen by God himself to lead the rest of his people in said community.

Hmmmmm... I think the church should focus on the bigger problem of getting rid of all the pedophile church leaders before even attempting to take a stand on this positition

You're right, but for some reason if we tackle the slightly less important issues, more gets done? <-sarcasm of course.
Getting rid of the pedophiles (church leaders or members) should be our number one task within our chuches. But on an over all basis I think is meant, because the church leaders influence sooo many people and set an example.

I find it strange that someone that possesses this quote:

"God Loves all People from all Nations. That being the case, why and what right do people have to hate one another?"

would have such a strong feeling toward this.

Is a homosexual not qualified to teach the Word of God? Whether you believe they are living in sin is one thing. But then again, show me a man who does not live in sin? They are few and FAR between.

How deep should the church dig into someone's personal life to ensure that they are NOT living in sin? Should the church set up secret scenarios to make sure someone isn't a pedophile? Or secretly gay? Or just to ensure they don't have a lustful eye? Or to ensure that they do not approach a woman during her time of uncleanliness? Or..?

Whoa now... I can see where you're coming from. But you're kind of right which i didn't want to admit because I try debating things when I don't believe them. But as far as I know as Christians we are suposed to be more understanding. And a strange way of looking at it taht jsut popped into my head is:
If love can teach someone of itself then why can't the word of God do it too?
I hope that makes sense to more people then just myself.:p

Makes perfect sense. Obviously, there is no one worthy of such a true position... and yet, the higher up the ranks you go, the more unworthy they become.

So where is the line drawn? At the one section where many religious heads focus the worlds attention... which most likely is to keep the world from seeing far worse truths?

Oh my... you're totally right and making me think. But that's where a God loving Christian becomes a stuck up Christian... when they are wanting to make the church look good more then to face true everyday issues.

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Originally Posted by DrJizzle

I find it strange that someone that possesses this quote:

"God Loves all People from all Nations. That being the case, why and what right do people have to hate one another?"

would have such a strong feeling toward this.

Is a homosexual not qualified to teach the Word of God? Whether or not you believe they are living in sin is one thing. But then again, show me a man who does not live in sin? They are few and FAR between.

How deep should the church dig into someones personal life to ensure that they are NOT living in sin? Should the church set up secret scenarios to make sure someone isnt a pedophile? Or secretly gay? Or just to ensure they dont have a lustful eye? Or to ensure that they do not approach a woman during her time of uncleanliness? Or.....???

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"This should not be strange at all. I love the person but I have some of the things they do. "We can separate the two things. God hate when we sin and yet he does not hate us. So my quote is honest, I hate no one. I do though hate what God hates and he hates the act of homosexual conduct and I am to hate what God hates. I though never would hate the person, just their actions.

Have a good evening.
Hope12

Well put. Agreed.

But why is it JUST homosexuality? As I said before, why not investigate further into someone's life before ordaining them?

Im curious to know how people that hold this belief would react after learning that the minister that has led your church for YEARS, the minister that has helped you grow to be the best Christian you can be, the minister that has reached out to so many suddenly exposed the truth that he was gay and had been hiding this from both his wife and his church.

Would all those years just negate themselves?

Dr Jizzle true christians that have the life of Christ inside them ( Holy Ghost) sin no more, because it is not the person that lives anymore but God in the person, and God can't sin ;)

By pointing a finger at each other doesn't erase GODs decision that Homosexuality is WRONG. Leadership implies you are an example to others with your behavior and actions. If a you are a businessman that is expected to lead a company.. you had better know your business inside and out. If you are to be a leader in the Church you had better have a good grasp on how to lead the congregation as GODs word directs. As a leader in a church you must accept your life is under close observation. God holds you responsible if you mislead his children away from his teachings. You cannot live as a thief or a drunk or a homosexual and guide others in GODS teaching. GOD made the rules regarding homosexuality not man. It is a leaders responsibility to uphold what GOD commands in his house. It doesn't mean christians are judging if we uphold GODS rules. It is by obeying GODS rules that we are hope and light to a dark and thirsty world. GODS demands from us to OBEY. GOD is the judge not us. He is the only one that has the right to judge us all. As Christians its true we all sin and can ask for forgiveness through the mercy and grace of GODs son Jesus. If you practice homosexuality you are sinning. If you steal you are sinning. If you gossip or judge others you are sinning. All are welcome in GODS house to come and hear the good news of salvation and join the body of Christ. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Jesus is the ONLY way to GOD. Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through me" I welcome all sinners to my church. The church is for sinners... thats what it is there for... I have not seen scripture that says accept a thief or a drunk or a homosexual and guide others in GODS teaching. The bible says to confess the sin ask for forgiveness and sin no more! I don't hear that here.. I hear we should have tolerance to sin. God does not want tolerance he wants us to OBEY.

Yes, we should not be tolerant to sin;)

And if God had issues with gays leading churches... he made them like that why?
Cause homosexuals are born not made.

Homosexuality is not something that is instilled from birth. Sorry to break it to you. It's a choice.

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Originally Posted by XMouse

And if God had issues with gays leading churches.... he made them like that why?
Cause homosexuals are born not made.

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You must be thinking of another God. Because if you're believing in the Christian God, then you have to abide by the entire Bible... and that means the parts that say that Homosexuality is a sin. Also the part that says God would never allow you to face a trial that you can't defeat. Homosexuality is just another temptation to something that is wrong, just like lying or stealing. Just anothing thing you need to deny to yourself, just like premarital sex.

There is nothing wrong with being gay. At all. In any way.
And some of the gay people I know are much better people then most of the straight or "normal people'

SnaveLeber - you said:

"homosexuality is not something that is instilled from birth. Sorry to break it to you. Its a choice."

Do you have any evidence for this? Or is just something you believe because it fits with your world view of homosexuality being a sin, therefore if anyone is pre-disposed to it they must be sinful? How do you know it's not simply a matter of whatever genes one happens to be born with?

This is really the crux of the matter - one side (yours) views homosexuality as a choice, like deciding to rob a bank, and the other side (mine) views homosexuality, or heterosexuality for that matter, as a pre-disposition one is born with, like having red hair.

The Gay life style is contrary to Christian morals so a gay cannot be a minister. There are a number of references in the Bible to homosexuality as sin so Christians should not be led by a person who espouses sin in any form.

Well of course, because everyone is born with sin, but not one fixated sin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XMouse

There is nothing wrong with being gay. At all. In any way.
And some of the gay people i know are much better people then most of the straight or "normal people'

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Xmouse the standpoint of homosexuality as a sin is based in the Bible. Apparently you don't agree with the Bible. Thus to argue regarding evidence is moot. A world without Gods laws is left to its own morals. Morals that change like the wind to suit personal desires. No God?. then No rules. You exist to chart your life as you see fit. Problem with that is someone may want to take what they want of your life for themselves. You may think stealing is wrong. Someone else may think its fun. They would think you're a chump and take your car. That's OK since his morals are different than yours. You can't expect him to abide by YOUR morals. Does that make sense to you? Its Gods morals and views that matter. Note one thing. You CAN be a wonderful person and still be a sinner. I have no problem with Gays more than I do other sinners. Its not an issue until they intend to be a leader or a example to others in Gods house. The Bible does not allow them to teach others while openly displaying a lifestyle unacceptable to God. There is much more going on than just outright choices when it comes to sin. Environment, childhood, abuse, neglect... we all are a product of an environment. Still as a society, or as a portion of the body of Christ, rules are placed. A thief cannot say... its because of... blank... I'm a thief. Or I was born to be a thief... its much more complicated than that. The fact remains if you steal.. society punishes you.. and rightly so. In Gods society... sin is wrong. To sin and say you had no choice I was born this way.. won't wash. You will be judged. NOT by me, but by God whom is the one that has the right. Homosexuality is not an acceptable behavior... its not "normal" Its wrong it so many ways. Just because its more accepted by the world we should ignore what the Bible says? Should God adapt his expectations to our NEW tolerant world? If stealing became more acceptable would that make it right? Realize by repeating the Bible to the world Christians are not judging the world. We are warning the world. Gods Grace and forgiveness is a finite thing. They day will come when it will be to late to repent.

If you walked into your house and your child was dead and your husband was sitting in the living room watching TV and tells you "I didn't shoot her, not my fault." Would you be able to just be okay with that and not hate him passionatly ? Why can god not be held up to the same standards as a common man ?