I never said that, but did imply it didn't I? You see, I don't want a teacher for my child who hits. I want a teacher who knows alternative ways of discipline, ways that makes my child use their minds rather than be fearful and cover their butts.

I personally think that spanking is cruel and inhumane, but that is my opinion. I have found many different ways to discipline that do NOT include laying on of hands of any way shape or form, and they are VERY effective.

In my opinion, spanking is cruel and unusual punishment. I don't deserve to get hit, and neither does my child. If my husband hits me, that is domestic abuse. In the same sense if I hit my child it should be domestic abuse.

As I have said before, I have 4 children, all of them have only been spanked once. ONCE. You lose the shock value in spanking if it is continuously done as a form of discipline.

So discipline is cruel and unusual punishment? I think that if today's criminals had a little more discipline when they were younger they wouldn't be the way they are today. Just my opinion.

Besides, my son hasn't done anything bad enough lately to get spanked. What I do now is, if I catch him doing something bad, I make him sit between my legs and I cross them so he can't get out, for 2 minutes of course, because he's 2. That gets through to him, he hates it. The redirection has started to work in some cases, but not all. Crayons and coloring books work wonderfully, that is when he wants to take the redireciton bait.

No discipline is not cruel and unusual punishment, but In my opinion spanking when we are just trying to get our point across is.

Discipline takes many forms, spanking just one of them.

Speaking of criminals, LOL, I was watching Court TV today, it was about Pelican Island, they interviewed many criminals, at least half of those had been spanked as children for reasons that alternative methods of discipline could have been used.

Our children don't need to be spanked when they do something wrong, it doesn't teach them what they did wrong or why it was wrong. It just hurts their a$$es. That's all they know. What is wrong with telling them that they did something wrong, why it was wrong and telling them never to do it again. Sure we have to do this over and over, but repetition is how children learn.

You can spank your child if you want, that is your right, but that doesn't mean I think it is right.

Well I have seen things on television as well (who hasn't? TV really isn't a good source) about people that were in prison. Some of them said if they had gotten the discipline they needed and deserved, they wouldn't be where they were today. One guy even said he wished his mom had taken him to the side and beat is butt for him sometimes.

Some people are thinking that spankers are the anti christ. What you don't understand is, I don't "beat him" until his a$$ is black and blue. I swat him on the butt 2 or 3 times, usually doesn't even make his butt red. If he even does cry, it is usually because the sound of my hand hitting is diaper startles the crap out of him.

And like I also said before, I have started trying some of the methods you described to me earlier. Some of them work great, and some of them need more work. He has started being a really good boy. Not all people who are spanked grow up to be a piece of crap.

Did I say that everyone who is spanked "grow up to be a piece of crap?" I don't think I did.

If you want to spank that is your prerogative, your choice. But I have been a mother for 21 years now, 4 children, I have experience, not only with my children, but with my schooling. I am not trying to change you or your parenting techniques, I am only trying to show that there are other methods that are better than hitting an innocent child.

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Originally Posted by J_9

Did I say that everyone who is spanked "grow up to be a piece of crap?" I don't think I did.

If you want to spank that is your prerogative, your choice. But I have been a mother for 21 years now, 4 children, I have experience, not only with my children, but with my schooling. I am not trying to change you or your parenting techniques, I am only trying to show that there are other methods that are better than hitting an innocent child.

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I believe I already said I have taken your advice and tried to apply it to my child. And trust me, he is not always innocent.

Its just all comes down to a matter of personal choice and opinion.

Excon thinks people who spank children are poor and misguided. Many would think he is the poor misguided person.

My grandmother who has been a mother for 65 years and my mother who has been a mother for 35 years have found that spanking if used correctly is a fine tool in parenting and they wouldn't have it any other way. Others will disagree.

Neither is right or wrong. How can anyone begin to tell an 85 year old women who has raised dozens of children and grandchildren to be outstanding citizens (and all of them are) that she was wrong in the way she brought them up? They cant.

It is clear that to this question there is no right or wrong answer.

I feel some children do benefit from spanking... I haven't swatted my son on the butt in a long time but when I did he would not do whatever I swatted him for... when I used the quiet time method it failed... now that he is older the best punishment is to be sent to bed without his after dinner cookies... of course for the original question we are talking about a 5 month old use your best judgement try different form of punishment to see which as the best effect.

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J_9 agrees: But he is ONLY 2 for crying out loud!!

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So because he is 2 he can do no wrong?

It is very clear Skell. Everyone has different parenting methods and different parenting skills

I was spanked, I don't spank, doesn't mean I don't believe it has it's place, but I do believe that it is overused.

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Originally Posted by nauticalstar420

So because he is 2 he can do no wrong?

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I didn't say that did I?

Wow, you really read between the lines don't you?

Most 2 year olds do wrong every waking hour of the day. How do they learn NOT to do wrong is the question.

And I teach him not to do wrong in any way possible. If I have to give him a swat on the butt, so be it. You give your own personal parenting advice, which is really good advice, but I don't think you understand that not all children respond to it.

The famous psychologist, Albert Ellis, who died last week at the age of 93, said something to the effect that repeatedly telling a child (when he is spanked or otherwise punished) that he is bad shames the child. The child feels worthless, believes he is no good, will never amount to anything.

On the other hand, if a parent is careful to tell the child that he did a bad thing and this particular punishment (spanking, time-out, grounding, etc.) is the consequence, there may be created in the child a feeling of guilt, but guilt that the child knows can be paid for and dealt with.

That's the difference between shame and guilt, Ellis said. Shame = "I am bad" whereas Guilt = "I did bad".

LOL, I am 43, I have 4 children and have taught parenting classes as well as been a preschool teacher, yes, all children do respond to it if done properly.

I think we should let this question rest... everyone has a different way and opinion... every parent does what they feel is right and knows their child the best...

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The famous psychologist, Albert Ellis, who died last week at the age of 93, said something to the effect that repeatedly telling a child (when he is spanked or otherwise punished) that he is bad shames the child. The child feels worthless, feels like he is no good, will never amount to anything.

On the other hand, if a parent is careful to tell the child that he did a bad thing and this particular punishment (spanking, time-out, grounding, etc.) is the consequence, there may be created in the child a feeling of guilt, but guilt that the child knows can be paid for and dealt with.

That's the difference between shame and guilt, Ellis said. Shame = "I am bad" whereas Guilt = "I did bad".

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That is awesome! I never tell my son he IS a bad boy. I tell him what he did was bad. I usually have to do it a couple of times, but he gets it eventually. THAT is why I have not had to spank him in a while. I know he is not dumb, he just either doesn't always pay attention, or doesn't always respond to the method I use for discipline.

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Originally Posted by jrb252000

I think we should let this question rest...everyone has a different way and opinion....every parent does what they feel is right and knows their child the best.....

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I agree. I'm done with this. When opinions clash, nothing ever gets resolved. Besides, I don't come here to argue and have to defend my parenting skills.

NS, I was so looking forward to bringing the gang over to your place for brunch tomorrow morning! Now what am I going to do with all these chocolate chip, blueberry, and apple-cinnamon muffins??

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bekah876 agrees: I know this isn't a laughing matter, but hearing all the things your little one has done I can't help but laugh. You and him will share some good stories later in life.

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Sometimes the things he does make me laugh too. He usually gets up around 7:30 in the morning. Well the other morning he must have gotten up extra early. I woke up and he was sitting on the floor beside my bed with 2 boxes of cereal, one arm in each one. It made me laugh, and it was a funny thing to wake up to.

Just for the record, I am not here to argue, or make enemies. Everything I have said is my own opinion. For that reason, I don't want to argue anymore :)

I totally agree with you NS. I was as of the same belief as you with my youngest who will soon be 21. But age, wisdom, and education has shown me different ways of discipline.

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Originally Posted by J_9

I totally agree with you NS. I was as of the same belief as you with my youngest who will soon be 21. But age, wisdom, and education has shown me different ways of discipline.

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I know as he gets older he will be much easier to deal with. He is just at "that age" right now. I know my youngest will pull the same things when he is my oldests age, but hopefully he will respond better to other methods.

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Originally Posted by nauticalstar420

I know as he gets older he will be much easier to deal with. He is just at "that age" right now. I know my youngest will pull the same things when he is my oldests age, but hopefully he will respond better to other methods.

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Whoa, a common misconception. Each child is different. Just like we attempt to help women and their periods and we tell them that their bodies are different. What may work for your oldest may not work for your youngest. What trouble your oldest may get into may be different than what your youngest may get into.

Thus, the reason for learning many different parenting skills so that you can use them on each child to see what works best.

By the way, I am sorry if I offended you in any way. That was not my intention whatsoever :)

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I'm α new pαrent, my bαby is only 5 months old, αnd I wαs thinking one dαy αbout spαnking.. I don't wαnt to hit shαylα but then αgαin I know sometimes I will wαnt to... like every other pαrent hαs wαnted to do so αt some point or other..

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Hun I do believe you were talking in the present tense.

5 Months old? I realize that you are a new mom and I totally respect your reaching out for help in this matter. We all get frustrated with our little ones. I have stayed up countless nights with my three. I know, and I think that you do as well, that it's never okay to hit a child. Not to say that I haven't popped mine a few times, never I might add, when they were infants. Brought nothing but sadness and grief to my heart to have done so. Didn't have the tools I have now, the maturity and the know how, which all come in time.

Thing is, you are young and new to all this, and you may get frustrated, but the frustration is not with the baby. The frustration lies in your inability to know what to do when she is fussing or being unagreeable. Thing is babies are sometimes intolerable because the lines of communication are closed when it comes to reasoning with them. You try and you try and again, and still they cry and scream or persist in their stubbornness. But I think that if you truly love this sweet, unknowing and sometimes completely infurating little girl, then you should know that guilt will be all you feel if you laid nothing but a loving hand upon her. She is learning, just as we all have. Patience, love and sometimes putting her down in a safe spot and walking away is the only solution. Let her cry. She will live and you will maintain your place in her life as her safe haven and the one she trusts mostly in the world.

Have you ever thought of a few parenting classes? Books? Check it out, but mostly, love her. She won't be this little forever and believe me the road just gets rockier. Take care of her, and take care of yourself. Don't forget a hot bath and a good book goes a long way. ;)

I know I'm coming in a bit late here, but it sparked my interest, as My sisters and I often have this debate.
I am of a belief that spanking is fine. Now there is a significant difference between spanking a child on the thigh and slamming them into a wall or beating them with a belt. I raise my child so that he knows to do what I say, and not to argue. At his age, he doesn't know well enough what is best for him. If he refuses to listen after adequate warning he will be popped on the thigh. I don't hit hard, just enough for a little sting, and more often than not, it is a good few months before I need to do it again.. if he doesn't want the dinner I made, he can go to bed hungry. I think though, that once a child is of an age where they understand things better (6/7/8 years old) then the form of punishment will change. At that point, the spanking becomes ineffective, they need to have items taken from them. My husband remembers a certain time in his life, where he sat in an empty room with a mattresss... he had lost everything due to punishment. He never went that far again. I came from a strict household, and my husband an even stricter one (MP parents). A child that is less than four, but older than two, doesn't quite have a grip on time out or even lengths of time for that matter. I used to threaten my son with time out and he would put himself there... whatever he was doing was worth that punsihment to him... but a spanking, is a different story... children that age are ver self centered. They weigh things... ie: will the punishment be worse than the thing deserving the punishment... and that is what makes the difference in how they choose. They just don't understand right and wrong all the way. They understand good and bad, but its not quite the same... I have never had an issue with a tantrum in public. My son understands that if he behaves he will be rewarded with a sucker from my purse or a sticker, or maybe a toy from the dollar rack. Not always, I don't bribe, but we keep track of the good decisions he makes on his "good choices" chart, and when he reaches a certain amount, he gets a prize... when he makes a bad decision, he starts over... it is kind of like a game... and that is something that he understands.

An infant, younger than a year and a half (in my opinion) really doesn't understand. The only thing that worked with my son at that age was a pop on the hand and a firm "NO!" but it really isn't getting through to them at that age...

My sister refuses to discipline her children other than a brief time out in the chair, and she is notorious for the 1... 2... 3... 3 and a half... 3 and 3 quarters... approach... she never follows through, and her children show that.

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Originally Posted by intherapy

Hun I do believe you were talking in the present tense.

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No if you reαd in previous posts I wαsn't sαying now-- for heαven's sαke she's α bαby! I meαnt lαter on...

I think with most parents it is a trial and error sort of deal with punishment... the best thing is to work together and follow through. That way she will learn that she can't get away with anything if one of you is not around.

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RubyPitbull agrees: There you go! Creative thinking! Keep it up with the positive redirection!

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Thank you! :)

NS, one thing I have noticed that no one has mentioned (Curlybenswife actually touched on it in her comment to you that you didn't quite understand) and may help you is the fact that everything your son does is attention seeking behavior. Negative attention is better than no attention to two year olds. You have noticed that he enjoys cleaning and helping you. That is because you are working with him and giving him attention. When your back is turned because you need to go to the bathroom or take care of the baby, he is doing something else to get your attention. He does know the bad stuff upsets you because of your reaction, but in his little mind, you are still paying attention to him. I would suggest that you reward him with Mommy time for a job well done and you give him the complete cold shoulder when he does something bad. Believe me, he will not like being ignored, and given enough of that treatment, he will start doing more of the helpful positive attention behavior and doing less of the negative attention behavior.

Regarding hitting, I read from her original post that Sarai knows full well that hitting a 5 months old is not even open for a discussion. I don't know why anyone misunderstood that. Sarai, regarding spanking as your child get older, I am in agreement with J_9's and excon's perspectives. I was one of those children who was spanked, slapped, and hit with a strap. I don't remember when it stopped but I believe it was when I was a young teen. I was a pretty good kid and didn't cause too much trouble. I knew the difference between right and wrong. My parents created a very stiffling and stressful environment by putting the fear of their wrath in our heads. I can tell you that I remember every punishment inflicted. I left home at 18 and never went back willingly. As an adult, I recognized that I loved my parents, I just didn't like them too much. They weren't people I would choose as my friends and I minimized the time I spent with them when they were alive. I don't regret that choice. So, for those of you who feel hard discipline is the correct way to go, you may just end up with a child who you won't see too much when they are grown and gone.

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Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

NS, one thing I have noticed that no one has mentioned (Curlybenswife actually touched on it in her comment to you that you didn't quite understand) and may help you is the fact that everything your son does is attention seeking behavior. Negative attention is better than no attention to two year olds. You have noticed that he enjoys cleaning and helping you. That is because you are working with him and giving him attention. When your back is turned because you need to go to the bathroom or take care of the baby, he is doing something else to get your attention. He does know the bad stuff upsets you because of your reaction, but in his little mind, you are still paying attention to him. I would suggest that you reward him with Mommy time for a job well done and you give him the complete cold shoulder when he does something bad. Believe me, he will not like being ignored, and given enough of that treatment, he will start doing more of the helpful positive attention behavior and doing less of the negative attention behavior.

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Ohh okay I kind of see what she was saying now. I still don't understand the "making him do it" part though. I understand what you are saying about the negative attention. I actually just got done with mommy time with him.. lol. We were singing songs and playing games. Now I'm trying to get him to use his potty chair but he doesn't seem to be in the mood. He has used it before, but it has to be when he wants to, which is okay. I will try just ignoring him next time I see him doing something. I'll let you know how it works. Thanks! :)

I tried the "dont do that again"no spank with my 2 year old but you know what?she did it again so she got a spanking.I would reather spank than have her die because people think spanking is abuse.you know what is right and what is abuse so keep that in mind if you spank.and know what she should get spanked for.sometimes saying no loud works.as far as in a store goes I haven had to leave or spank her she also hasn't hit the I want that stage yet.I also only use my hand.

By the way, I don't mean completely ignore. Take the time to explain that his behavior his bad and why it is bad. He may not understand the explanations now, but he will. It also trains you to explain things to him so that when he is older it will be second nature to you. My point is not to lose your cool with him. I know it can be a challenge with a two year old and a two month old. But, if you keep it short and simple and don't give him any more attention than you have to at those times, he will get the message.

I have to sign off now. Have a good night everyone.

As Ruby so eloquently said, (I believe CBW touched on this also), children crave attention, good or bad, doesn't matter what kind, they really don't care as long as they get it.

I have been stressing positive redirection all along but was met with resistance and that spanking is okay. Yes, it is okay in the most severe cases.

Parenting is basically a lot of repetition and consistency. You don't need to touch a child in any way shape or form to get your point across. But repeat consequences to actions, be consistent in your discipline. But laying on of hands is not necessary.

And to Sarai, I apologize that this thread took on a life of its own. I am so sorry it veered off the track that you set.

My mother, years ago, and later I, when I had kids, found that moving one's body (yes, yes, it's often difficult to stop what one is doing and get involved) and picking up the child, then moving him to a safe or more interesting area, getting him involved in something constructive instead of destructive or harmful was the better way to do it instead of slapping a little hand or swatting a little thigh which too often becomes a game. Of course, my mother always had something interesting or fun for us kids to do in a child-safe part of the house if she couldn't be directly involved. Also, we were put into playpens when we were under age 2. Maybe that's an evil thing now, but it sure worked well, and the child could still be within mom's line of sight.