Yes they are separate issues to a point. Here is the problem with that scenario, per the lawyer I have already spoken to. There is no guarantee that I will get support without him receiving some kind of visitation. What I know about him is very hard to prove, even with a written statement from his wife if he were willing. She has never reported him for the abuse he has given her, her son from a previous marriage and the neglect he is showing the almost 2 yr old daughter they have now. I could be awarded child support, then he could go after visitation. If I could prove what I know then yes I can't believe any judge in their right mind would grant him any contact. That would be like granting a known sexual predator access to a school yard. But the problem lies in the other scenario. If the judge didn't see things my way and granted him visitation, even if it was supervised at first, it would eventually be unsupervised. Then it would be too late for me to prevent her from being hurt until he actually did something against the law that I could then take back to court and have that order re-evaluated. I am just not willing to take that risk. Do I wish I could get the support she deserves... Yes. Am I willing to risk the welfare of my child in the hands of a court system that has let many down in the past... No! I appreciate all the advice, and if I have taken anything the wrong way I apologize. Keep in mind it's a very touchy subject for a single mother who is just trying to do what is in the absolute best interest of her one and only angel.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

Asking, I haven't disagreed that it would be better to forego support then the risk the child. I'm just not sure that its necessary to do so. And that's where the judgement issue comes into play.

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Well, it seems quite clear that he doesn't care enough that he has asked for any visitation or custody yet. However, I would bet a GREAT deal of money that if she went after child support not only would he go after visitation he would probably threaten going for full custody. We've read about it here time and time again. That in the long run will only cause a great deal of pain and a lot of time and money in court. Which won't do any of them any good.

MJM, you sound like you are a GREAT mom. Keep doing what you are doing. You are blessed to have family support. I wouldn't go after the support in your situation as you have explained it. And God will provide for you. I am sure He shown you that already. Just keep trusting and praying and let Him lead you in your decisions.

Good luck. Blessings.

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Originally Posted by melissaj_murphy04

Here is the problem with that scenario, per the lawyer I have already spoken to. There is no guarantee that I will get support without him receiving some kind of visitation. ... I could be awarded child support, then he could go after visitation. ... Am I willing to risk the welfare of my child in the hands of a court system that has let many down in the past...No! I appreciate all the advice, and if I have taken anything the wrong way I apologize. Keep in mind it's a very touchy subject for a single mother who is just trying to do what is in the absolute best interest of her one and only angel.

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The only thing that bothers me here, at this point, is why did you bother asking for opinions? In your original post you started saying; "I would like some opinions on my situation and what I should do." Yet you appear to have already made up your mind and have gotten advice from an attorney more familiar with the full situation.

I'm not saying you aren't making the right decision. Based on the subsequent details you provided, it probably is the best decision. Its just that you asked for opinions and you got good ones based on the info you supplied, but you really had already decided what to do.

I concur with Scott. Your initial post did kind of reek of self-righteousness and therefore left a bad taste in a lot of peoples' mouths, mine included. However, as you've stated more facts, things now make a lot more sense. It is true that, if you were to go after child support, he could very well likely pursue visitation and/or custody and as you yourself have said, it'd be very difficult to convince a judge that he is totally unworthy of any kind of visitation with his child, despite his patterns of abuse and neglect. And as you've also correctly pointed out, as time goes on his visitation rights would become more and more liberal, thereby making her totally vulnerable to the abuse and neglect that he's already dished out to his other family members. But I continue to stand by one thing that I stated in my initial response, and that is you should leave his wife out of it. You've already decided that it's not worth pursuing him for child support and that him having visitation with her is not in her best interests, so he's basically out of the picture. That being the case, I feel that his wife should be out of the picture as well. It's not likely that any judge would ever entertain any testimony from her, either on behalf of or against her husband as a spouse would not be regarded as an objective, credible witness. Furthermore, by encouraging her to continue to speak disparagingly about her husband, loser though he may be, that could actually work against her should there ever be any question about custody or visitation with any children that he has with her. If he has it on record that she's spoken disparagingly about him with someone who, like I pointed out in my first response, was a potential plaintiff in an ongoing lawsuit against him, not to mention the mother of his other child (and remember, things that are communicated via e-mail or IM can be printed out), that could set her up as the bad guy should she ever need to separate from him and try to block him from visiting her children, for the same reasons that you don't want him visiting your daughter. I know that you feel that you've been a source of strength and support for each other, but things being what they are you could actually be hurting her by continuing to communicate with her the way you've been doing.

I didn't pick up on any “self-righteousness” in the original post, but I have been thinking that a lot of what Melissa added later was pretty much obvious to me from the start and I can see now that it probably wasn't obvious to others. If you have dealt with an abusive spouse before, or spent time reading about abusers, then a lot of the information that seemed to be "missing" from Melissa's original post was implicit. Abusers tend to behave in predictable, stereotypical ways-- "as if they all read the same book" is how some people have put it. So because I knew that he was abusive, I could guess a lot of things about him, including that if he was asked to pay child support, he would probably want to punish Melissa by trying to get custody.

Some people here may not know that abusive fathers are statistically more likely to seek custody than non-abusive fathers. (It doesn't matter whether it's physical abuse, sexual abuse, or verbal abuse.) AND, when they go to court, abusers are more likely to GET custody than good fathers. This seems contradictory, but apparently it's true. Abusers seek custody because it's a good way to hurt or scare their ex partner and it also allows them to create lots of situations that will upset the ex. For example, if he forgets to pick up the kids, he could make her late for work. If she then loses her job, he can tell people she's unreliable. If she gets angry and shouts at him, he tells people how patient he is with her bad behavior. I'm just making up these examples, of course, but these are pretty typical ploys by people who do this stuff.

Abusers get custody (sometimes even full custody) because they are good at creating a great first impression. Judges and social workers can be taken in by the abuser's charming "great dad" persona, especially if there's no paper trail to show how he really behaves when alone with his partner or kids. It isn't anybody's fault that this happens, except the abuser for being really good at deceiving people, I guess.

So, anyway, if Melissa's ex boyfriend is abusive, that means that statistically he is more likely to react to a request for child support by trying to get custody of the little girl. (And he's likely to succeed, through charm and perseverance.) The lawyer Melissa consulted probably knows that. I wish I'd said this earlier; maybe it would have helped avoid some of the conflict. I just assumed that it was obvious, but now I realize that really it's not obvious at all. (Most people would think that an abuser would be less likely to get custody, not more... ) I think if the ex boyfriend were a responsible upright dad, like I think Scott was assuming (or at least wishing), then Scott's advice would be totally right. Why would a person ask for custody of a child he's never seen or tried to see? It seems illogical. Unfortunately, when dealing with an abuser, you have to think a little differently. Hope this helps make the situation seem less strange.

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Originally Posted by asking

I think if the ex boyfriend were a responsible upright dad, like I think Scott was assuming (or at least wishing), then Scott's advice would be totally right. Why would a person ask for custody of a child he’s never seen or tried to see? It seems illogical. Unfortunately, when dealing with an abuser, you have to think a little differently. Hope this helps make the situation seem less strange.

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No, I did not make that assumption. My assumption was that a judge would look at the situation where the father had previously made no attempt to be part of the child's life. The judge would look at evidence of violence and abuse. The judge would then conclude that the request for visitation was a spite move to try and prevent support and would deny it.

I still think that is a possibility. But if a local attorney familiar with the courts in her area was advising against it, then the local courts may have a history of not seeing it that way.

If you can raise this child on your own, do it. There is the potential for too much drama here. And why are you in constant contact with his wife?

After reading more of your post, you decided to have this child knowing the butt he is, you knew he didn't care about this child, so it's on you. Raise her yourself. She does not need all of this irresponsible adult behavior in her life. He's a loser. You don't need him and neither does your daughter.
You decided to do it on your own, so do it on your own

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

No, I did not make that assumption. My assumption was that a judge would look at the situation where the father had previously made no attempt to be part of the child's life. The judge would look at evidence of violence and abuse. The judge would then conclude that the request for visitation was a spite move to try and prevent support and would deny it.

I still think that is a possibility. But if a local attorney familiar with the courts in her area was advising against it, then the local courts may have a history of not seeing it that way.

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I see. Sorry that I imputed thoughts to you. I shouldn't have tried to guess. I agree with you about it looking bad that the father has not been a part of the child's life so far. But the father could assert that the girlfriend wouldn't let him to see the daughter and that he had given up. He could even say he didn't know where they were, which sounds like it was true for a while. So unless she can actually document that she tried to get him involved, it might just be her word against his.

As far as violence and sexual abuse, these things are often even harder to prove. Basically, someone must go directly to a doctor and (1) document the injuries or sexual act AND ALSO (2) document that they were inflicted by the abuser. He either has to admit it in writing or else a third party has to witness the abuse or something like that (unless DNA testing would work in this case).

Twenty years ago, my ex husband assaulted me and fractured my arm, which he freely admitted to our marriage counselor. We both heard the bone snap and it hurt for a year. The counselor didn't write down what he said and I didn't go get an X ray, so I can never prove it. But my not being able to prove that he broke my arm doesn't mean I made it up either. I hate it when people boil things like this down to "he said, she said," as though that automatically means that nothing significant happened.

I agree that it would be so much better if Melissa's daughter could get the child support she deserves.
Asking

Ok in response to s_cianci, I wasn't being self righteous about anything and I can't imagine where you would possibly get that idea. However, one major problem with discussing things online, as it has become very apparent in the responses to my original post, is delivery and perception. It is very difficult to try and determine how someone may or may not have meant a statement. Therefore, words and meanings very easily get misconstrued and misunderstood. I obviously did not do a very good job in explaining the situation fully by as Asking said I thought it would be understood. Since I was abused I do have that mindset as she laid out in her post. Where the wife is concerned, that information has been misunderstood as well, to no one else's fault but my own. I am no longer in contact with his wife. I haven't spoken to her in months. I am fully aware conversations can be printed from online conversations. I, myself, have saved all the conversations and emails I have traded with both of them, for precautionary reasons. She provided me with valuable information and I am grateful, however, since he did make his intentions clear and she does offer up a lot of drama and more information than necessary I cut communication with her when the situation ended. I am not sorry I talked to her because otherwise I would be in the dark about many things, which would not be good for me or my daughter. But to ease people's minds, that situation has stopped. In closing, when I posted my question originally I had not spoken to a lawyer or made up my mind. I have done so since my original post. All the advice here has been very helpful in making my decision. One final response to Homegirl 50's comment. I was not aware of how bad of a person he was when I found out I was pregnant. As a matter of fact, even though we weren't together, we were still communicating in a friendly manner while I was pregnant. He got transferred out west around the time of her birth and it wasn't until after I found him again that I found out I was having his child. However even if I had known, I do not believe in abortion and I didn't want to give her up because I love my daughter and have since day 1, so him being the father may have complicated things, but it has and shouldn't have any bearing for anyone as to whether they are going to love and raise their child. What kind of person would I be if I got rid of my child just because I didn't like her father, that would be dumb and completely heartless.

Great answer, Melissa! I think you are doing great and am so impressed with your strength and courage.
Asking

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Originally Posted by melissaj_murphy04

One final response to Homegirl 50's comment. I was not aware of how bad of a person he was when I found out I was pregnant. As a matter of fact, even though we weren't together, we were still communicating in a friendly manner while I was pregnant. He got transfered out west around the time of her birth and it wasn't until after I found him again that I found out I was having his child. However even if I had known, I do not believe in abortion and I didn't want to give her up because I love my daughter and have since day 1, so him being the father may have complicated things, but it has and shouldn't have any bearing for anyone as to whether they are going to love and raise their child. What kind of person would I be if I got rid of my child just because I didn't like her father, that would be dumb and completely heartless.

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I never mention nor even though about not having your child. I don't believe in abortion. All I am saying is, now that you know the kind of person he is, why would you invite all of that drama in your life and the life of your daughter. If you can support her on your own, do it. If not, I wish you the best in trying to get money from him.

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Originally Posted by Homegirl 50

After reading more of your post, you decided to have this child knowing the butt he is, you knew he didnt care about this child, so it's on you. Raise her yourself. She does not need all of this irresponsible adult behavior in her life. He's a loser. You don't need him and neither does your daughter.
You decided to do it on your own, so do it on your own

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In the first sentence you say I decided to have his child knowing the butt he is, and that's just not true, since I didn't know the type of person he would turn out to be. Nor did he express any ill will of having children. He only started acting this way once he found out the child was actually his and that's all I was getting at.

I misunderstood you, but now know the kind of person he is, and the type of drama you are going to be in for... any way. I wish you the best.

Was he married when you got pregnant?

No, he didn't get married until our daughter was almost 1. I would never get involved with a married man, if they don't have finalized divorce papers it's not happening. That's would be just asking for all kinds of drama and trouble.