Usually visiting a restaurant in town on Friday afternoons, we often see a family where the father (his wife isn't there often, just sometimes) acts strict, but rather than a parent, more like a 20th century dictator of a totalitarian government-dictator ship state (no mentioned, no forgotten) to his two children (who seem to be like 10-14 something), consisting of two daughters. There seem to be no major problem with the children, but he shouts at them for everything he doesn't like. The girls are always required to be dressed up when going there, wearing a white blouse and a black skirt. Last Friday he was shouting at the little girl for accidentally spilling on her blouse sleeve, and when she said she was sorry for the mistake, he told her not to talk back like that. She begun to cry, and was comforted by her bigger sister, but when everybody were looking at them, even the waitstaff, feeling sorry for the girls (one waitress girl was about to cry), but the father just took his daughters with him, and they all left in their car.

The girls often look afraid of doing any mistake which would cause their father to shout at them, and just have to sit down and eat, if not he refers to them as "careless girls" who "can't behave like a girl shall" and how their behaviour is "unacceptable". Usually nothing happens. Sometimes he at least tell them they did well.

They don't seem to like being dressed up, but I can accept if he wants them to do that sometimes (even if it's not the kind of restaurant most people dress up for), but it's no excuse for threatening them like that. The funny thing is that their father himself shows up wearing ordinary clothes.

We also require our daughter to dress up for special occasions in a blouse and a skirt even if she doesn't like it, but even if we act strict sometimes, we would never threat her anything like this. Sometimes parents raise their voice, but what he does is far much more than acceptable.

First time we saw them was years ago, when they were just 5 or something. I only know that their parents are upper class (have "always been") and very strict, not much more, our daughter doesn't know them from school. But I really feel poor for these two little girls. Who knows about their home conditions? If I ever meet them or one of them alone in town, I would not hesitate to ask them about their problems. Once I asked a waitress girl in the restaurant about how often they came their, and she said usually Fridays (the same as us).

What do you think about this threatment? I will not take our daughter (12 years old) there anymore for a while, since she became so sad seeing all this last Friday, she has been crying almost for the rest of the weekend (she doesn't want to go anymore), feeling sad for these little girls. And I can just agree with her.

So why did you not walk over and tell him such behavior was not socially acceptable.

I've heard someone who did it, he just said it was his children.

And that is the truth... they are his children. He sounds very strict, with high expectations... perhaps a cultural situation? You mentioned this is how it has been for years, so it is the norm for their family.

Uncomfortable situation, no doubt, but unless there was evidence of neglect or abuse, there is not much anyone can do.

I think you are wise to visit on a different night to avoid further upset.

Sad. Even if we are angry at our daughter sometime, we always comfort her if she begins to cry and tell her how we love her. But he just seems to continue to shout at them, even when they start crying, or shout even more. They also have emotions.

There used to be a woman who yelled and screamed at her 2 children at the bus-stop just outside my home. Every single morning. My children used to hear it, well anyone within a hundred yards probably could in all honesty, and it did upset them. Not to mention it was quite early on a morning so it was sometimes the thing that woke us all up.

I had a word and explained that although it is entirely her decision how she chooses to discipline her children it was not fair that her behaviour was upsetting my children, and that ourselves and the neighbours being woken by the volume was unpleasant.

The problem vanished. I discovered later that she started using a different bus-stop. I had hoped that it might make her think about her behaviour to her children. I suppose a whole lot of other people had a new problem to contend with but at least we didn't have to hear it anymore.

It is up to this guy how he disciplines his kids, even though I'm sure it would make me very uncomfortable to witness. However if his behaviour is upsetting other people then those people have a right to let that be known. I assume the fact he is shouting makes it impossible to ignore, rather than it being people going out of their way to listen in. If he is upsetting the waiting staff and other customers I would think it was time the restaurant management had a quiet word. Maybe a word in their ears if not his?

Why did she scream? Did they behave bad? How did it end? Was she drunk? He is definitely not. But as she seemed to scream psychotic with as high noise as possible, he first look into their eyes, then shouting, striking fear into his daughters.

The way I see it you have a few options.

1. Instead of just feeling bad, do something about it, tell him that you find his behavior appalling and that your own child was crying because of the way he treats his daughters.

2. Continue to do nothing and just ignore the behavior.

3. Go to the restaurant on Saturday instead of Friday so you can avoid this man.

Unless he's beating his children or neglecting them, there's little you can do legally. Personally I'd go up and tell him exactly how I feel about what he's doing, but that's just me.

Good luck.

When you talk of it, I think I will go there next Friday, without our daughter and tell him. Our daughter is crying now again. The problem is that if he stops shouting or going there, I don't how often his daughters experience the same at home.

In response to your further question, the children in question were a little boisterous because they were bored waiting for the bus. Nothing a little distraction wouldn't have taken care of. The mother wasn't drunk, just not very effective at handling her own kids. Seemed to think the louder she shouted the better. Didn't seem to occur to her it wasn't actually having the desired effect.

Got to spread the rep but agree with Alty. I would be inclined to tell him his behaviour was ruining my meal and upsetting my kids.

Sadly there's nothing you can do about how he treats his daughters in general, unless you personally witness violence or neglect. I know, we all feel bad when we witness this sort of thing but all you can do it what is right for you and yours in this case.

Do you thin I shall tell him in front of his children, or try like if he goes away or something (like returning from the toilet).

Thanks. Our daughter is still crying. We comfort her, she knows we will never threat her so (even if we thik behaviour is important too, and dress for special events). She says she feels sorry for the girls, and have enough of seeing this for years.

If it will make you feel better, say something, but not in front of his children. Just be prepared to hear the same thing... they are his children. I don't know of too many parents who would welcome such an encounter as no one likes being told how to raise their children or that they aren't doing it correctly.

Who knows, maybe it will give him something to think about, but I doubt it.

Again, unless there were a true safety concern, there isn't anything you can do.

Be careful not to draw it out with your daughter and inadvertently make it harder for her. Simply explain that some mothers and fathers do things differently than you do, including discipline. She has likely seen that in her friends' homes that some of the rules and expectations may be different.

What do you think of starting with asking him why he seems always requiring his daughers being so well-dressed (they mostly wear white blouses and black skirts, sometimes white button shirts and black pants) but he shows up wearing ordinary clothes?

How he dresses and requires his children to dress is his concern.

Your only real grounds for confronting him is that the shouting is affecting you and your child enjoying your meal in peace. I agree with Doula that it would be best to try and keep his children out of it. Yours too. All you can reasonably do is try and have a quiet word about the fact that his behaviour is upsetting your child and that it is unpleasant to hear his shouting whilst you are trying to enjoy a family meal.

I do feel sorry for his kids, but it's just not something you can fix.

I agree that you should pull him aside to talk to him. When you do remember that he will most likely not like it that you're trying to interfere with his kids. He's a bully, and bullies don't like to be told to stop.

The only reason I'd confront him is in hopes that if enough people do, he may finally realize that what he's doing is affecting his children, and the people around him. Will he change after you talk to him? Unlikely. Will he change if many people talk to him? It's a bit more likely but still up to him.

I feel bad for his kids too, but unless you actually see abuse, there's not much you can do.

As for your daughter. Remind her that sadly this is the way the world is, that there are many kids out there going through much worse than those two girls. What you do about it when you see it is what counts. There are those that see someone beating a child, molesting a child, or worse, and they do nothing. Then there are people like you that cannot sit by and watch a child being treated poorly, and it's people like you that make a positive difference, even if only in the lives of your children.

Be proud that your child has this much compassion for others. She's obviously a lot like her mother, and that's a good thing. :)

I find it strange that you've witessed the verbally abusive behaviour of this father toward his children, over five years, yet say now that if you had an opportunity, you would talk to the girls. Why now, and not during the years prior to now.

You can talk to the waitress, and note all the fine detail of the nature of that families conversations, and their apparel, right down to observing the older child comort the younger one.

If this is a regular part of your outing with your own family, I have to ask you, why did you not leave when their behaviour was apparently so bothersome that your own daughter is disturbed to the point of crying. Why would you subject yourself and your family to this, and not leave.

Do you stick around and watch the aftermath of a good car crash too?

There is much you could do, beyond nothing.

You could re-visit this establishment the following day, and let the proprietor know that the behaviour of this family is disturbing to you. Let him know what you have observed, and the reaction of staff as well. Staff should not have to cope with an abusive father anymore than an abusive drunk.

You could offer an olive branch, and call the girl's mother, and ask if their girls could come over to visit, or for a birthday party.

You could also confidentially visit the school counsellor and tell her of your concerns, and the obvious verbal abuse you have personally witnessed. If what you say is in the ballpark, they are most likely quite aware of problems with the family.

You could call the mother, an ask her over for coffee. Perhaps she is as isolated as her children are.

You could stop gossiping and guessing, and instead extend simple human kindness and see if you can't make some positive moves to better their lives and broaden their friendships.

Being critical and unhelpful will only serve to further ostrasize these girls.

Step up and do something.

As I said before, I've seen their mother too, but just sometimes. She also acts strict to them, telling them what to do and not, but at least not shouting at her daughter's that way. The girls behave very well, but no mistake seems to be accepted.

Thanks for posting. I will tell him. I don't fear abuse, but that they have no childhood, and are just always supposed to appear perfect. A girl spilling on her blouse sleeve by accident is no reason to be so mad. They seem to always do their best.

As I said, I'm going to talk to him the next time I see him. I'm not going to talk angry, just tell how I feel, and how upset my little daughter has been.

I read this post with interest,my first impression was the kids were being taken out for a social occasion,they were well dressed,clean,well behaved,and the father corrected their behaviour when HE thought it was out of line.

OK,so the girl spilled food on her blouse and he gave out,I can't tell you the amount of times I have given out to my kids when they were younger for getting their good clothes dirty,as a parent I know I can put my hand up and say I have given out when that has happened,I have also corrected their behaviour in public and I have in the past threathened to chop off my daughters legs if she continued to kick the table in a restaurant!

Many times I have seen feral children run havoc in restaurants and the parents looking on blissfully ignoring the whole thing.

This guy may be strict,but I bet the kids are well fed clean,have a routine,don't miss school,have a bedtime and know their manners,that's not such a bad thing really.

The only recourse that you may have is too not go there any more,or a different night, or if it happens again to say it to the staff.

You don't really know the whole story,for you he may have seemed over the top,for someone else it may have seemed perfectly fine.

Just be careful if you decide to approach him,you may get an earful.

Is this the only time you have seen this family. Or have you seen the same outside of the restaurant?

While he sounds harsh, telling his children what to do and what not to do is not abuse. You even mentioned that he will praise them as well. If this is the only place you see them, or all that you know of them, it does not mean that they have no childhood. Many kids do not like to dress up. Kids sometimes play around or don't pay attention to what they are doing and spill their drinks. Accident, sure, but parents often get after their child to be more careful. Some have a shorter fuse than others.

Yes, they may be more strict than you would be, yes, he may raise his voice louder than he needs to, but be very careful that you don't make assumptions based on snipets of conversation and observation.

I understand that this upsets you and your daughter, so say something, it may cause him to give some more thought and perhaps tone things down, at least at the restaurant. But again, they seem very confident in how they are raising their daughters.

I wish you well with the situation... I'd be curious to hear how it goes.

Yes, please let us know how it goes.

Like other I have also told my daughter not getting her blouse dirty with a strict voice when she's dressed up, but not shouting like that. If she starts to cry we always comfort her and talk, not continue to shout at her making her even more sad. .

Yes, we also have our daughter dressed up in a blouse and a skirt for special events. She doesn't like it, but does it too. . It's what I have heard, that their parents are super strict with so much. I don't know much more, and try avoid gossip.

Maybe it's not officially emotional child abuse, but I'm worried for how all these years of shoutings will affect his daughters. It can make them sad, or afraid. Afraid of their parents, and afraid of doing misstakes.

If I go there on Friday and discover him, but he doesn't shout at his daughters that time, do you think I still shall try to talk with him that time, or wait for another time?

This is what happened last Friday. I went there without my daughter, and soon he arrived with his two daughters. The girls were dressed up in their blouses and skirts as usual, and their father seemed to correct them for everything, talking strict to them like "–Don't sit like that", "–Don't talk so loud" and they had to reply like "–Excuse me, father".

Then he calmed down, as his daughters managed to follow his instructions, but when the younger girl sat floundering with her legs a little bit, just like anyone would do, he begun to raise his voice again. When he discovered the older girl wearing her blouse a little bit un-tucked, his shouting about "–Careless girls" begun again, not so loud as last Friday (which was his worst shouting ever), but the girls started crying a little bit and told they were sorry for their mistakes.

Then, he went to the toilet, the moment I had been waiting for. I could hear the girls talking to each other, and the older one comforted her sister, drying her tears and saying how much she loved her, and was so tired of this, both in the home and in public. I was so touched and it was not so many people there this time, and I had to go there and ask how they felt, and if they were abused. The older girl, who said she was 14, told they weren't abused, but she and her sister did anything they could to follow their parents' strict rules and dress codes, as they loved their family, but were usually only met with a raised voice or shouting for every single little mistake, especially by their father. I told them they have always seemed to behave well, and even told how upset my 12 year old daughter was last Friday.

I asked if they were afraid, and they said not of abuse, but they had a big pressure to do well at school, to avoid their father shouting. I also asked if they were ever comforted, and the big girl said only when they were really sad, like if a loved one died or something.

The younger girl, who told she was 10, then said that for every weekend, holiday and special event, they had to put on these blouses and skirts to "look good in clothing". I said I also require my 12 year old daughter do so for special events and holidays, but not so often. The older girl said the same, but she at least accepted it, but the big problem was not that, but their father shouting.

I even told that my daughter would like to meet them, and that I would invite them one afternoon if their parents said yes. The older girl told me she has seen my daughter, and she seemed to behave well without any shouting.

When I saw he went back I went towards him, asking what he was doing to them. I told him his shouting last Friday made my daughter very upset, and worried for them and that I talked to them. He raised his voice a little bit, but nothing compared to how he does to his daughters sometimes, telling me it was his daughters, and he has the right to raise them as strict as possible to teach them good behavior and respect until they were 18. He also said they do not belong to me, any other person the state, and he would always love them and never abuse them. I asked him if he was threatened that way himself, he said "–No", but also seems very conservative continuing "–But my daughters are girls, and from an early age, a girl shall always be taught good behavior, respect and know how to dress well" (How I wanted to say –OK, but it's 2010 now, but didn't).

I asked him why he continues to shout when they cry, telling that in our family we always comfort our daughter when she cries, not making her even more sad than she already is. He just said he teaches them to behave well.

Finally, I said that that my daughter would like to see his daughters. He just said my daughter could stop worrying and stay with her friends instead. Then he told me he had no more time for talking with me about this, and left the place with his daughters.

When I came home, we told our daughter to sit down with us in the kitchen, so I could tell what happened. She calmed down when I said it was no abuse, but when I told her about what they said, she begun to cry and ask how he could require so much from just two little girls (even if one of them is older than our daughter), and be so mad just because an un-tucked blouse (we have always told her not to wear blouses and button shirts un-tucked when she's dressed up). I comforted her saying it was nothing compared to the thing that is actually called child abuse, reminding her of some years ago when she was upset when I talked to her about real child abuse from a newspaper issue (it was really scary stories, with children being beaten, called names, sexually abused, neglected, isolated, spit at, forced to wear humiliating clothes, parents telling they hated their children and even one about a teenage girl being threatened like a baby and totally broken down for the rest of her life, which was reality and no movies), when I tried to explain how bad some children are threatened when no police or government see, I even reminded her about the extreme Fritzl case (even if that girl was 18 she was taken to the basement).

Before our daughter went to bed we remided her how much we had always loved her and would always do (and if she would become a criminal we would hate the crimes, not her), and whenever she was sad she could talk to us, and cry when she needed, and when we tell her we want her to show respect for us, that's just respect and not fear. I also told her to never give up her hope to meet the two girls again as she wanted, but that we would not go to there on a Friday again, at least not for a while. I told my daughter we are proude of her being such an emotional little girl, her compassion for others may always be her strongest side.

I am impressed that you talked to him, and to his daughters. He will know that he has been 'noticed' and is not immune to his abusive behaviour in public. The daughters will know that there are adults out there who understand things aren't quite right, and that may prove to be a reminder down the road, should they need outside help.

That being said, I'm also glad that you talked to your daughter about child abuse, which doesn't take place in the public eye for he most part. As hard as it may be for your daughter to hear, giving her this learning opportunity by talking turkey about it, is doing the responsible thing. At some point in her life, she will be a better person and parent because she was made aware.

At first I thought you were all talk, no action, but, I am now duly impressed that you did what most of us should do in circumstances where abusers think they are immune to being asked directly about their behaviour, when clearly it is abusive.

I hope that the girls didn't get the third, fourth, and fifth degree when they got home, but by the sounds of things, I would not be surprised if a teacher, or other parent or adult has also talked to these girls, or the parents.

Thanks for stopping in to catch us up on what has happened.

I'm surprised you were able to get so much information from the girls while their father was in the toilet.
I don't imagine you are surprised that he didn't take you up on the offer of having his daughters round to spend time with your daughter.
You certainly gave your daughter a thorough explanation of what constitutes abuse as well.

His toilet visit lasted long, which better allowed me to talk with his daughters.

What can I do to let my daughter see his daughters (they're not in the same school)? Call them? (I know their family name), but fear I will just hear the same "–It's my daughters" again. With today's debate, I know their parents need to accept the invitation, but I can say it was my daughter who would like to invite them for an afternoon, in our home. We don't want to invite their parents.

I also think those girls would feel much better if they, just for some hours, could visit a home where they can meet a and talk with a girl who is always loved for the one she is, can always talk about her fears and problems to her parents, respect is not the same as fear, mistakes are always allowed, crying is comforted and not made worse, and bad behavior and un-tucked blouses or spilling on them are met with a correction, but not shouting.

I will tell them how many adult people out there who understand shouting like that is not OK, but while we can't do so much, there are children experiencing so much worse things (if that's consoling?). I also told my daughter how she can talk with them (ask if they have many friends, if they have any hobbies or activities, which music bands they like most, if they feel better at school, if their schoolteachers know how extreme super strict their parents are, and how they think), but be prepared to do what she can to say something comforting to them if they are sad, and also not talk too much aobut private issues.

What also really touched me is how these girls said they loved their parents so much. OK, so thankfully they aren't beaten, but I also think at least the 14 year old girl would try a least a little bit teenage girl revolt as their parents were so strict (but still love them in her heart and soul), but she just seemed to continue doing and dressing exactly as she was told. Today I asked our daughter if she would love us even if we abused her (just as a question, not me asking to abuse her), and with a crying she replied she would still always do.

I think that you are now in rescue mode, and that would only likely cause more problems.

For one thing, he's made it quite clear that he doesn't wish to have his children on a playdate with your daughter. For another thing, your daughter is put in an awkward position of being an accessory to entertaining them and by the sound of things, the father sounds far too threatened by the outside world, to allow any influences on his daughters. Not to mention that your daughter has spent too much time already crying over their situation and being upset already. I can't see how furthering her involvement with these children, will make things better for all concerned.

To be involved further with the daughters, will mean being involved further with the father (and mother), and my opinion is, you should let it go, because he will not let it happen. Even if he did, he would likely then ask your daughter over to his house, and like you not wanting to invite their parents, he would not want to invite you either. Do you or your daughter feel comfortable with a reciprocal arrangement?

Other than what you have already done, my advice to you is to let the issue rest.

Our daughter doesn't want to play with them, just talk with them how they feel. I also think children comforting each other is a good idea, even in more serious cases but when I read what you write, I also doubt..

One other thing you might want to do, is detail what you have so far. Dates, times, observations, your conversation with him, your conversation with the girls.

You may become aware of others' involvement with this family such as the school, and if and when that happens, you could offer the information you have, in a safe, confidential way, which would be helpful, should an investigation ever occur.

The father is a strange character, but it is not a good idea to further involve yourself with him, as you would have to, should you wish further contact with his daughters.

His attitude that you mentioned, he is quite right. He doesn't have to answer to anybody about how he parents his children, but, at some point, perhaps he will.

To me this sounds either religious or cultural. It is how their family runs. And unless the girls are being abused or neglected, its no one else's business. I know how you feel, it hurts my heart just to hear about it. But they are his children. And he isn't breaking a law by being more strict than other parents are.

As I said, he at least could talk about it.

What happens is him having very strict and conservative upper class view how a girl shall be raised, behave, obey, look, dress and appear (as he told he wasn't threatened strict as child, but they are girls). Our daughter at least feels better now.

Yes, my daughter knows what real abuse is. We have cried together over newspaper articles about abuse, and I explain to her that how these girls are threatened may not go under abuse and be illegal, but can still bring the girls sad memories.

As I said, I was so touched by seeing these two girls being sad. I can just imagine the pressure the girls may feel to meet all requirements and dress codes, or having to listen to him shouting for every little single misstake.