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Car was running fine when I shut it off the next day went out to start and would not start. Vehicle rolls over fine. The ICM, distributor, coil have been changed it seems to now be receiving great blue spark. Also getting plenty of fuel to the cylinders. The plugs are soaked when you check them. Also check engine light comes on for two seconds before going out before trying to start the vehicle. I am stumped its been a lot of money and time wasted yet no answer
Which ECU are you using and what are the codes Flashing? Who did the swap and has it ever run yet?
Which 1.8 did you use? Was it an ODB0, or ODB1 swap?
I've done the B series swap myself, but it was an ODB0 B16A1
The ecu is a obd0 and no codes at all. It just flashes once before attempting to start. I have owned the car for two month and it has always ran fine. This is super frustrating...
OK... that tells me that all the hard stuff has to be right. You did have the water pump... Idler and Timing belt replaced when you put the engine in I hope.
I can't check the Manual I have for the ODB0 B series engine until I get home... that will be in about 3 or 4 hours, as I don't remember the codes off the top of my head. I did the swap about 5 or 6 years ago, still runs like a champ.
When I bought it motor was said to have less than 10,000 miles. There is no timing cover on it currently and the best looks brand new. Unless somehow it slipped when I shut it off that day, which doesn't seem likely,but is possible?
Best= Belt * my fault on the typo
You can download and print FSMs for the ODB0 B series Vtec here
Online Honda Service Manual List
Since there was never an ODB0 VTEC engine sold in the USA the SiR manual from England is the only English language service manual you will find. They wee introduced in the 1994 Del Sol but that's a ODB1 engine with a lot of differences.
I assume you don't have the non-VTEC B18 from an early integra.
Yeah it is actually a non v-tec twin cam b18 with headers and all the goods. I'm not sure why the person before me wouldn't just put the v-tec motor in instead...
Age has as much a factor as mileage on that belt... you can assume its past its age limit. Do the water pump and idler at the same time... if any one siezes it WILL take out the belt and you will bend valves, its guaranteed. Honda is an interfereance type engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrek
A code for a timing jump is not a single flash (forget what it is but its not that for sure)... Gates timing belts are garbage on Hondas... get one from the dealer. I went through two that kept stretching and jumping time EVERY time I went over 5,500 RPM. UNTIL I got a belt from the dealer then I've had it to 9,200 rpm without issue many times. (Mine IS a B16A1 and has upgraded valve springs, Cams, 4-1 JDM header and chipped ECU) You won't pull those reves on less than an B18C5 without issues.
We get it running first , THEN change those items. They are on borrowed time.
OK... NON V-Tech... you need to reffer to the US market Accura integra engine Service manual for that period... Do you know what year engine it is for certain?
Just to be certain... you are sure its not the D Series ZC Twin Cam that is a 1.6?
That's a totally different beast... and a nice engine. I've run that as well. Wish I had kept it. It got 10 mpg better than the B series and still had a lot of power.
Yeah well that's the thing the guy I bought it from said that timing belt shouldn't be an issue cause it was changed when the motor went in. Ah I see the belt could just be crap and not handle anything above 5,500. I mean this belt literally looks brand new and I don't know what kind of belt it is. He said it was professionally swapped from the 1.5l to the non-vtec 1.8l... thank you for the info about the belt, If it did indeed slip when I shut it off, then I will be sure to have it replaced with one from a honda dealer.
1990
Trust me... timing belts per Hondas suggestion should be replaced every 60K miles or was it 5 or 6 years. Yes they can be 15 years old and look brand new... don't let looks fool you.
So... 1990 1.8 non-Vtech Integra engine. That HAS to be US market as the other markets had the B Series V-tech beginning 1990. I am assuming that's the 1.8 Integra LS engine. Yeah.. 130 HP, you would have been better off with the B16A1 with 160Hp stock... that was on par with the DOHC ZC that would run on regular gas that had 138 hp stock. THe US Integra didn't get a 1.7 VTEC until 92.
Honestly NOT as familiar with that specific engine so it would reguire me digging around a bit. The Manual I have won't cover that and it will be a Different ECU in any case.
Hopefully someone will have that info like TXGreasemonkey before I can dig something up.
The motor is a b18a1 1990 non-vtec twin cam
Yep I am starting to wonder if it did jump a tooth or something because I am not sure of what else can cause a no start? It is indeed the 130 hp motor I bought it cause I needed wheels and it is in great shape and it is a quick bugger.
The belt is tight though and that's all I did was shut it off at idle speed. The motor is fresh at 10k and the belt is supposed to be that old as well . I hope I wasn't being lied to ,but who knows people do lie...
You shouldn't ever see the check engine light on... towards the bottom of the page are the pertinant codes...
Honda OBD1 & OBD0 ECU trouble codes
OBD1 ECU Codes:
Code Meaning
1 O2A – Oxygen sensor #1
2 O2B – Oxygen sensor #2
3 MAP – manifold absolute pressure sensor
4 CKP – crank position sensor
5 MAP – manifold absolute pressure sensor
6 ECT – water temperature sensor
7 TPS – throttle position sensor
8 TDC – top dead centre sensor
9 CYP – cylinder sensor
10 IAT – intake air temperature sensor
12 EGR – exhaust gas recirculation lift valve
13 BARO – atmospheric pressure sensor
14 IAC (EACV) – idle air control valve
15 Ignition output signal
16 Fuel injectors
17 VSS – speed sensor
19 Automatic transmission lockup control valve
20 Electrical load detector
21 VTEC spool solenoid valve
22 VTEC pressure valve
23 Knock sensor
30 Automatic transmission A signal
31 Automatic transmission B signal
41 Primary oxygen sensor heater
43 Fuel supply system
45 Fuel system too rich or lean
48 LAF – lean air fuel sensor
54 CKF – crank fluctuation sensor
58 TDC sensor #2
61 Primary oxygen sensor
63 Secondary oxygen sensor
65 Secondary oxygen sensor heater
Honda ECU trouble code data:
1 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
85-98 86-98 97-98 85-91 93-97 95-98 85-98
Oxygen Sensor “A” (Primary)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
2 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
85-89 86-87 n/a 85-87 85-91 n/a n/a
Oxygen Sensor “B”
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
3 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
85-98 86-98 97-98 85-91 93-97 95-98 85-98
MAP Sensor (Manifold Absolute Pressure)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
4 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
90-98 88-98 97-98 88-91 93-97 95-98 85-98
CKP Sensor (Crankshaft Position Sensor)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
5 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
85-98 * 86-98 97-98 85-91 93-97 96-98 85-98
MAP Sensor (Manifold Absolute Pressure)
mechanical problem / disconnected piping
* exc 94-95
6 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
85-98 86-98 97-98 85-91 93-97 95-98 85-98
ECT Sensor (Engine Coolant Temperature)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
7 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
85-98 86-98 97-98 85-91 93-97 95-98 85-98
TP Sensor (Throttle Position)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
8 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
85-98 86-98 97-98 85-91 93-97 95-98 85-98
TDC Sensor (Top Dead Center)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
9* Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
85-98** 86-98 97-98 85-91 93-97 95-98 85-98
CYP Sensor (Cylinder)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
* not a valid code for any throttle body injection Hondas
** not a valid code for V-6 engines
10 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
85-98 86-98 97-98 85-91 93-97 95-98 85-98
IAT Sensor (Intake Air Temperature)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
12 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
85-98 86-98 * n/a 85-91 * n/a 95-98 85-98
EGR Lift Sensor (Exhaust Gas Recirculation)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
* not a valid code if car is not equipped with an EGR valve (some Civic models are not)
13 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
85-98 86-98 97-98 85-91 93-97 95-98 85-98
BARO Sensor (Atmospheric Pressure)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
14 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
88-98 88-98 97-98 88-91 93-97 95-98 88-98
IAC Valve (Idle Air Control)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
15 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
90-95 88-95 n/a 88-91 93-95 95 88-95
Ignition Output Signal
missing or defective ignition output signal
16 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
90-95 88-95 n/a 88-91 93-95 95 88-95
Fuel Injector System
defective circuit or unplugged / defective fuel injector
17 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
88-98 88-98 97-98 88-91 93-97 95-97 88-98
VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
19 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
n/a 88-95 n/a 88-91 93-97 n/a n/a
Automatic Transmission Lock Up Control Solenoid Valve
defective circuit or unplugged / defective solenoid valve
20 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
90-98 88-98 97-98 88-91 93-97 95-98 92-98
Electrical Load Detector
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
21* Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
94-98 ** 92-95 n/a n/a 93-95 n/a 93-95
VTEC Solenoid Valve
defective circuit or unplugged / defective solenoid valve
* not a valid code if car does not have a VTEC engine
** not with V-6 engine
22* Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
94-98 92-98 n/a n/a 93-97 98 93-98`
VTEC Oil Pressure Switch
defective circuit or unplugged / defective oil pressure switch
* not a valid code if car does not have a VTEC engine
23 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
98 * 96-98 n/a n/a 94-97 n/a 92-98
KS (Knock Sensor)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
* not a valid code if V-6 engine
30 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
90-98 * n/a n/a n/a n/a 95 92-98 *
Automatic Transmission Signal: “A” / SEAF / SEFA / TMA or TMB
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
* not a valid code for 1996
31 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
90-95 n/a n/a n/a n/a 95 92-95
Automatic Transmission Signal “B”
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
41 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
90-98 92-98 97-98 n/a 93-97 95-98 90-98
Primary Oxygen Sensor – Heater
circuit malfunction
43 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
90-95 92-95 n/a n/a 93-95 95 90-95
Fuel Supply System
defective or malfunctioning fuel supply system
45 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96-98 96-98 97-98 n/a 96-97 96-98 96-98
System Too Lean or Too Rich
malfunction in the fuel monitoring systems
48 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
98 92-98 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a
LAF Sensor (Lean Air Fuel)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
54 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96 96-98 97-98 n/a 96-97 n/a n/a
CKF Sensor (Crankshaft Speed Fluctuation)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
58 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
98 * n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a
TDC Sensor 2 (Top Dead Center)
defective circuit or unplugged / defective sensor
* with V-6 engine only
61 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96-98 96-98 97-98 n/a 96-97 96-98 96-98
Oxygen Sensor, Heated – Sensor 1 (Primary)
high voltage, low voltage, or slow response
63 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96-98 96-98 97-98 n/a 96-97 96-98 96-98
Oxygen Sensor, Heated – Sensor 2 (Secondary)
high voltage, low voltage, or slow response
65 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96-98 96-98 97-98 n/a 96-97 96-98 96-98
Oxygen Sensor Heater (Secondary)
malfunctioning or defective oxygen sensor heater
67 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96-98 96-98 97-98 n/a 96-97 96-98 96-98
Catalyst system Efficiency Below Threshold
malfunctioning or defective catalyst system
70 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96-98 96-98 97-98 n/a n/a 96-98 96-98
Automatic Transmission
malfunction with the automatic transmission controls
71 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96-98 96-98 97-98 n/a 96-97 96-98 96-98
Cylinder 1 Misfire or a Random Misfire
a condition is present that is creating a cylinder misfire
72 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96-98 96-98 97-98 n/a 96-97 96-98 96-98
Cylinder 2 Misfire or a Random Misfire
a condition is present that is creating a cylinder misfire
73 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96-98 96-98 97-98 n/a 96-97 96-98 96-98
Cylinder 3 Misfire or a Random Misfire
a condition is present that is creating a cylinder misfire
74 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96-98 96-98 97-98 n/a 96-97 96-98 96-98
Cylinder 4 Misfire or a Random Misfire
a condition is present that is creating a cylinder misfire
75 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
98 * n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a
Cylinder 5 Misfire or a Random Misfire
a condition is present that is creating a cylinder misfire
* valid code for V-6 engine only
76 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
98 * n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a
Cylinder 6 Misfire or a Random Misfire
a condition is present that is creating a cylinder misfire
* valid code for V-6 engine only
80 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96-98 96-98 n/a n/a n/a 96-98 96-98
Exhaust Gas Recirculation
insufficient flow detected
86 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96-98 96-98 97-98 n/a 96-97 96-98 96-98
ECT Sensor (Engine Coolant Temperature)
circuit range / performance problem
90 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
97-98 96-98 n/a n/a n/a 98 97-98
Evaporative Emission Control System
leak detected in the fuel tank area
91 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96-98 96-98 n/a n/a n/a 98 97-98
Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor
low input
92 Accord Civic CRV CRX Del Sol Odyssey Prelude
96-98 96-98 97-98 n/a 96-97 96-97 96-98
Evaporative Emission Control System
insufficient purge flow
How to read Honda OBD0 trouble codes without a scanner:
OBD0 Check Engine Light (CEL) Codes:
When the Check Engine warning light has been reported on, turn the ignition on, pull down the passenger's side carpet from under the dashboard and observe the LED on the top of the ECU. The LED indicates a system failure code by blinking frequency. The ECU LED can indicate any number of simultaneous component problems by blinking separate codes, one after another. Problem codes 1 through 9 are indicated by individual short blinks. Problem codes 10 through 44 are indicated by a series of long and short blinks. One long blink equals 10 short blinks. Add the long and short blinks together to determine the problem code.
you have to jump a service connector located on the passenger side right under the dashboard near the door. The connector has two pin inputs. Connecting them with something like a paper clip will force the check engine light on the dashboard to display the codes. When u pull the kick panel on the right side floor board where your ecu you there will be an extra plug hanging I believe its green or blue, put the paper clip in it, turn the ignition to the on position and count the number of blinks on the check engine light.
codes 1-9 are indicated by a series of short flashes; two digit codes use a number of long flashes for the first digit followed by the number of short flashes for the second digit. So a code 43 will be represented by 4 long and 3 short flashes.
The position of codes in a sequence can be helpful in doing diagnostics. A display showing 1-1-1-pause-9-9-9 indicates two problems occurring at different times. A sequence showing 1-9-1-9-1-9 indicates two problems occurring at the same time.
Note: OBD0 is for ECUs in the years 1988 – 1991.
Self-Diagnosis
Indicator Blinks System Indicated
0 ECU
1, 2 Oxygen Content
3 Manifold Absolute Pressure
4 Crank Angle
5 Manifold Absolute Pressure
6 Coolant
7 Throttle Angle
8 TDC Position
9 No. 1 Cylinder Position
10 Intake Air Temperature
13 Atmospheric Pressure
14 Electronic Air Control
15 Ignition Output Signal
17 Vehicle Speed Sensor
21 Spool Solenoid Valve
22 Oil Pressure Switch
43, 44 Fuel Supply System (KX, KS, KG)
If codes other than those listed above are indicated, count the number of blinks again. If the indicator is in fact blinking unusual codes, subsitute a known-good ECU and recheck. If the indication goes away, replace the original ECU. The Check Engine warning light and ECU LED may come on, indicating a system problem, when, in fact, there is a poor or intermittent electrical connection. First, check the electrical connections, clean or repair connections if necessary. If the Check Engine warning light is on and LED stays on, replace the ECU.
***this was taken from the Helms manual for 88-91 Civics.
However my personal experience with JDM ECU's is there is no jumper to get codes up... they come up right away and can be seen under the carpet on the firewall under an access panel over the ECU... should be a hole to see it, which you have found.
Try clearing the ECU and see what it gives you, you do this by the following method.
The Hazard fuse (10 amp) is in the main fuse box under the hood. Pull that for ten sec. That should clear the ECU of any stored codes... a hard reset in effect.
See if after that you get any codes.
One quick flash when you turn to the key battery just means the ecu is telling you its alive and everything is working properly
Having a hard time finding the location to jump the codes. Not seeing any two pin connectors anywhere under the dash on both driver and passenger side?
See if this helps:
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-t...tml#post832012
Read the bottom of that page... ODB0 codes will flash on the ECU itself, not the check engine light, without prompting. That's under the passenger side carpet on the firewall. Can't miss it... its under a gold anodized metal plate if they bothered to put it back.
I don't have that plug either. Swapped a Twin cam D Series engine into mine in 2000 (a 1989 engine) and about 5 years ago swapped the B Series into it. So I've rewired TWICE now since mine was a DX and not an Si when I started.
But I'm willing to guess you have no codes... any code usually trips the Check engine and it stays on.
But its best not to assume anything.
Ah I see then I don't have any codes stored dang
Checked plugs seem to be fine, getting a blue spark out of them. Now the only thing I haven't changed in the ignition system is the distributor housing.Not sure where to go next computer isn't throwing a code?
If its more than one tooth out of time it should trip a code... and still start and run... even at two... three you run a risk of valve contact and if it got as far as four you already bent valves and have bigger problems. You should be abel to HEAR if that happened, compression test will easily prove it too, as in you won't have any.
Check the obvious and make sure your rotor cap hasn't come loose. If the set screw fell out it WILL... trust me, cost me a tow bill once when it did and I had NO tools to fix it along the road.
Remember you need three things for it to run... Ignition, Fuel and Compression... if you have all three and doesn't run it's a matter of the timing they are delivered.
I checked the rotor cap its good, ah yeah I am not hearing any issues with the valves. I don't have a compression tester ,but it the car is getting fuel and spark. If the distributor housing sensors weren't working it should throw a code too.
I am getting frustrated no codes no start belt intact and not loose. At most it could have jumped a tooth or two,but again no codes. Hmmm
If it jumped even two teeth it will start and run... not with a lot of power but it would run.
Hearing a grossly bent exhaust valve would take listening to from the tailpipe when someone cranked. The intake from the throttlebody. I could tell the sound was off, can't guarantee it would be obvious to everyone however.
Should be easy to check the timing anyway... crank it until the TDC mark is at the arrow. There is more than one mark keep in mind on the crank pully. There are timing marks on the camgears they shoud be verticle or a tad pigeon toed... both slightly towards each other like they are pointing at a common mark 20 feet or so above the car. Hondas are reverse rotation, meaning they run counter clockwise... never turn one backwards even a few degrees. It will jumpt time
That's a good point. I have a question the car does seem to be getting a good amount of fuel. Could it flood? Can fuel injected vehicles technically flood? If It were the sensors in the distributor housing it wouldn't start correct?
Oh yeah you can flood it, easier than you might think... and it's a bear to start if it is. You have to stop trying and walk away for maybe an hour before you try again when that happens.
There are a LOT of things that could keep it from running... but assuming its getting fuel when it should, spark when it should, and has sufficient compression... and no codes... then it should at least try to start. One of those is not as it seems if it won't.
Yeah It sounded like it stumbled earlier ,but won't start, it becomes more apparent it won't start the more its cranked. That's why I was wondering if it was flooded. Do you have a diagram of the way timing should look?
Your problem is likely distributor related. Most aftermarket distributors for Hondas have not worked at AMHD. I only recommend using genuine Honda distributor housings, where it's fine to install an aftermarket ICM and coil to keep the cost down. Your engine may be sparking but not at the right time. In all likelihood, one or more internal distributor sensors (CKP, TDC, or CYP) are bad. Try installing a known good distributor.
I do have msd Coil and Msd ICM as well as MSD cap. I don't know about the housing though, it maybe aftermarket? I will look at finding a honda one to replace it.
Here are some diagrams... but by the time it was far enough off to not start you would have serious problems due to valve/piston contact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrek
Yeah my marks for the cams are not facing straight up currently? They are both on a angle one slightly more than the other. I'm not sure about the crank mark.
Never mind I was checking it at top dead center, still however one cam sprocket seems to be set ahead of the other by a two teeth? Which doesn't make sense. Also went out and cranked it and it almost started.
Wasn't checking it at top dead center*
You have to use the 0 BTC mark when checking the cam timing.
You use the others when doing Ignition timing.
If one jumped time... it might be harder to start but should start...
If one IS in fact two teeth off, set it right... then make SURE you set the tension correctly or its going to happen again. Too tight you risk frying the bearings in the tensioner or water pump... and either will take out the belt and do serious engine damage.
Too loose and it will jump time and if it goes far enough serious damage will occur.
I'm guessing it's the front cam (the exhaust) that is off, right? That's the one I had the trouble with when I used a Gates timing belt... before I went and got an OEM belt.
Your ignition timing is also subject to the rear cam (intake) timing as the Distributer is driven off that one.
Sort out the cam timing first... then sort out your ignition timing, IF it needs adjusted. But it might not.
The cam closet to the front of the car is the one that seems to be off a little bit. The other seems OK. I am going to have to take it to a mechanic to make sure and let him take care of it. I don't have the resources for to change the belt
Good idea... its a hard task to explain since the manuals use cryptic specifications... like Nm etc... I've done this enough I know what is in the ballpark and when something isn't right... but its hard to pass that on to another, particularly when it all has to be paraphrased.
If you lived say... next door, it would be a LOT easier to show hands on. If any of that makes sense.
One tooth off you will feel and notice if you have driven it when it was right.
I think you have several possible things wrong, and TXgreasemonkey might be on target with one of them...
And I'm just trying to extablish some easy to check baselines are as they should be... as they can affect other things that can compound the issue. I like to check the obvious before replacing parts. And I like to check one thing at a time... it saves causing other problems before you find what went wrong first. Trust me... thats a hard learned lesson.
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