So here's the deal. A couple weeks ago my civic just shut off and would not start again. I went through and gave it a full tune-up. (spark plugs, wires, filters, cap & rotor) I ended up solving the problem when I replaced the Ignition Control Module and Coil. I also had some bad gas that had water that was freezing up on me. All the problems seemed to be solved with the ICM, Coil, some new gas and some Heet. So I ended up taking the car on a trip (for the holidays). Everything was going fine, ran like a top all the way there, and most of the way back. I was coming down this hill and all of the sudden it just started lurching. (my foot wasn't on the gas, as I was going down a hill). I stopped at a gas station not even a quarter mile away. When I went to start up the car it started right up, then just quit. I tried to start it again and it started up fine and ran. Going down the road, the rest of the way home (about 40 miles), it occasionally lurched. I brought it home and left it sit overnight. When I tried to start it the next morning, it would fire up fine and run, then just shut off. It did this about 6 times. Finally it stayed running. I took it straight to the mechanic. He hooked up it up to the diagnostics, and the car would not repeat what it had done. He couldn't find the problem. It ran fine all the way home from the mechanics, I shut it off and started it a couple times in between the mechanics and home. The mechanic also said that it did not shut off the entire day that he had it. I do have a check engine light when I before I start it, and it does go out. I also have fuel pump. I checked the main relay when I was searching for the problem last time (coil and ICM), and it clicked twice before the car started. Could the main relay be intermittently failing? Or is there something else? Any help would be great!

I believe the owners of older Hondas (i.e. at least 10 years old) should bite-the-bullet and just replace the ICM, coil, distributor housing, main relay, and ECM, if like-new reliability and performance is important to them. If these cars are their primary means of getting to work, then this advice is even more relevant.

I am getting ready to move, and am trying to keep a budget, basically get the car running good again, but I don't want to replace all of the above if that is at all possible. I'm trying to narrow it down a bit, and maybe replace all the rest at a later date. What does it most sound like to you, a main relay?

Is it possible for a main relay to intermittently fail?

Try resoldering the old main relay and see if that solves the problem; otherwise, just replace it. They run around $45. It could be that when the main relay heats up cold solder joints cause it to fail.

The car runs better when it's warm than when it's cold. When it's cold it just wants to keep shutting off after I start it. When it's warm it barely does it.

Is there any way to test the main relay?

Standard bench testing procedures do not test for intermittent cold solder joint failure, which separate and fail when the relay heats up. You can likely find the standard bench testing procedure on the internet. The problem stems from poor PCB soldering.

Is there any way to test for a bad ECM? And if it was a sensor in the distributor wouldn't I have a CEL?

I developed the K-Test to test for a failing ECM. It's an overall test of the ECM to function like a power transistor. However, it does not test all aspects of the computer. It also does not test subtle problems that can be caused by oxidation on the connector or pins to the ECM--problems that definitely can affect performance. Intermittent problems are notoriously difficult to solve, at times. That's why it's important to establish a "known-good baseline."

I had a Civic distributor that was failing miserably (in fact, destroying itself) and the CEL never came on. Simply amazing.

What do you mean by "known-good baseline"?

Components that are known to be good. You are eliminating as many potential problem areas as possible. Examples are ensuring the battery is fully charged, under-dash and under-hood fuses are okay, ICM is good, coil is fine, etc. Through process of elimination, you focus in on the cause of the problem.

Okay well, the coil and ICM are brand new, cap & rotor are good. I don't know about the ECM, distributor housing, or the main relay. I noticed the main relays are fairly decent priced, so I may go get one tomorrow. If that is not the problem I'll check back with you. Thanks for the help.

ICMs, coils, main relays, and distributor housings are the most common electrical components to go on Hondas. Main relay problems usually show up during the summer, where the car starts okay in the morning, when temperatures are cool, and fails later in the day, when temperatures go up. I recommend drilling ventilation holes in the cover, to help prevent heat buildup.

I just went out and started the car. Its been sitting 3 hrs. It started fine, then shut off. I started it back up, and it almost died, then picked back up before it died. This is new it hasn't done this before. Then it continued to run fine. Does that help narrow it down at all?

It really doesn't sound like a bad main relay. However, it could be if it's really messed up. Your's just would not be the "classic" symptoms most people look for.

. Clean main ECM ground on the thermostat housing. Look for a 3-wire brass connector--remove and clean with abrasive cloth. This is a must!

. Disconnect negative battery cable for 10 seconds, or remove the Backup Fuse in the under-hood fuse box for 10 seconds, to reset the ECM. This is a must!

. Perform K-Test on the ECM. This is a must! Tell me what voltage you record at various times, especially after the engine dies. ECMs that are experiencing intermittent failure show 5 volts, when everything is okay, and .3 volts, when problems arise.

. Using a mechanic's stethoscope or large handle screwdriver, can you hear each fuel injector click, when the engine is running?

. Check vacuum hose connections, particularly to the MAP Sensor.

Okay so I ended up taking the main relay out. When I went to do so, I just barely wiggled the relay (before taking it out) and then the car wouldn't even start after I did this. And this is like 10 mintues after it was just running fine. I then continued taking it out. When I got it out, I noticed that it had been mauled up some, looked like someone had been into the insides of it. So I took it apart. Someone has already resaudered it and it looked horrible. Definitely just globbed on there. There was one that is definitely cracked around the bottom rim of the sauter joint. I tried to get a new one, but it's on order until Tuesday. Does it sound more like the main relay or am I still barking up the wrong tree?

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It really doesn't sound like a bad main relay. However, it could be if it's really messed up.

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I think you nailed it! You definitely need to replace the main relay. Again, most problems Hondas have are related to issue with ICMs, coils, main relays, ECMs, and distributor housings.

All right. I just went and put the main relay back on and it still doesn't start. I am getting all three clicks though, that doesn't rule it out though right?

No. At this point, the only thing you can do is wait until you install the new main relay on Tuesday, or try resoldering the relay yourself for something to do. I would wait and do the job right. It's part of establishing a known-good baseline.

Im just concerned that this is a never ending money pit. I really wanted to narrow it down to something I could know for sure before I throw more money at it. (as I'm moving in 2 weeks and am in no condition to be spending a lot of money) I really don't want to replace this relay that is 70.00 and then find out it's the distributor or something else.

Go to RockAuto.com--much cheaper ($46.79):

RockAuto Parts Catalog

ACDELCO Part # 212486 {#19113330}
RELAY,F/INJ CONT MDL
* Non-stock item--shipping delayed up to 12 business days *

$46.79 $0.00 $46.79

Otherwise, go to a local salvage yard.

If there was a bad sensor, wouldn't the ECU be sending a signal for my CEL to come on? I was just trying to make sure that it wasn't a sensor.

When you are talking about the main relay you are talking about the PGM-FI Main relay correct? The part number you gave me for RockAuto went to Fuel Injection Pump Relay?

PGM-FI Main Relay. You never told me if you had a DX, LX, or EX, or the exact engine you have; therefore, you need to ensure the part no. is correct. Basically, I wanted you to know where you could get a new part for a lot less than $70. Always shop prices and warranty.

I looked at Rock Auto.com the prices were great... but I'm moving in 2 weeks and need the part quicker. They charged like 25.00 for 3 day. Also I was wondering if a sensor was bad would the CEL be on?

I found a mistake I have made on a previous repair... one of the spark plug wires was apprently not correctly plugged into the cap. It looks like there's been really bad arching there because the cap is burnt in that hole (for that spark plug wire) and the connector on the spark plug wire is black. I need to know... can this have damaged something? I'm going to take the cap off and check in there for abnormalities, I'll wait to hear back from you.

I just took out the (brand new) coil and from my readings it is bad. Could the previous mistake I mentioned cause this? Or is there something deeper... I really want to know before I stick another 80 dollar part in there for it to fail 300 miles later. My numbers were 14.68 on the secondary and on the primary 1.8 (which to my knowledge that means the primary ready indicates a bad coil). I literally just put this part in about a week and a half ago.

Oh and when I took the cap off there was a white talcy powder in there. The ICM looks good, but it looked good last time it failed ( it was replaced with the coil about a week and a half ago). I know that one of the signs of a bad distributor is if the shaft is loose, but it is secure in there. Any ideas?

The resistance in the primary circuit appears too high. I don't think it should be higher than about .8 ohms. I don't know what the white powder is.

If the distributor cap, rotor, and spark plug wires are not in kept in good shape (i.e. too high resistance), the high secondary voltage will be discharged on the electrical system itself. This will be the path of least resistance. This is how ICMs and coils often experience premature death.

I did just replace the plugs and wires , cap & rotor... so do you think it was the spark plug wire not being in there all the way... like I said there was black soot on the metal connector on the plug wire, and the hole for the wire to plug into on the cap was melted and definitely some arching had gone on there. I just want to know if in your opinion this could have caused the problem. From what I'm hearing it sounds like it very well could have. I just want to double check before I put a new coil in that I'm not asking for it to do it again.

If what you are saying is that one of the spark plug wires was not firmly connected to the distributor cap, then yes. The easiest way to ruin a coil is to stress it to the max by removing a spark plug cable from the distributor cap, while the engine is running. It's being forced to put out maximum voltage, which it can only do for so long before it is ruined.

Yes that is what I am saying. Looks like something that I overlooked caused the problem. One of the spark plug wires was not connected firmly, and I drove it about 300 miles that way on a trip. I guess that's probably what did it. Thank you for all of your help. I could not have diagnosed and fixed the car without it. It's really greatly appreciated! I will let you know the outcome when I get it fixed. I think I'll replace that main relay as well, it probably needs it from what I seen when I took it apart. Oh just one more question... since this has happened will that spark plug wire be damaged? Again, thanks for everything.

No, the spark plug wire should be fine.

A final thought. If you ordered the main relay and coil from RockAuto.com, it would likely be cheaper than buying it locally, even if you paid for overnight delivery. It might be worth looking into. The TEC coils that I've checked out from RockAuto.com are OEM Honda coils for a fraction of the price. The TEC coil for your Civic (Part # 30510PT2006) would cost $42.99. This is the identical coil I installed in my Civic 19 months ago.

Well I went back to Shucks where I originally got the part... and they exchanged the coil for a new one. I put it in today and the car fired right up. I double checked on the spark plug wires (this time I didn't want the same thing to happen). I just had another quick question. When my car is idling, it will drop down to a lower RPM and it almost sounds like its backfiring through the exhaust. Then it will pick up a little bit of RPM and smooth out. Is this just because it is cold here? By the way thank you so much for your help with all of these ignition troubles.

Possibly. Make sure you are only using 5W-30 engine oil. You may need to check the idle rpm:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-t...tml#post219948

The IAC Valve may need cleaning or replacing. Also, you may want to change the PCV Valve and ensure the PCV hose is clear, including where it enters the throttle body.

I took it back to the mechanic and it turns out my PCV valve was stuck and somehow my idle adjustment was way off. Thanks for the help.

Okay I went to pick it up from the mechanic and it purred like a kitten... then when I went to drive away it surged harder than it ever has and burnt up the third coil. The mechanic says this may be a shorted/frayed wire from the distributor... do you have any ideas why it's burning these coils up?

Very unusual. Go over everything that has been done. Ensure the ICM, rotor, distributor cap, spark plugs, and spark plug wires are the correct ones for your car. High secondary voltage is being turned on the coil itself and is destroying it. There's major resistance somewhere, where the path of least resistance is not through the spark plug wires.

Inability of the system to correctly jump the spark plug gap will force inappropriate ground paths through other secondary ignition components, such as coils, rotors and spark plug insulators, destroying them as well. Old wires can also cause misfiring under load. There may be a problem with the new spark plug wires you installed. Also, check the spark plugs (NGK only) and spark plug gap.

The mechanic just called me back and told me that the wires from the distributor are all fine, but I do not believe that I have had 2 coils that were bad from the start. Something is frying the coils and I really need to get to the bottom of this before I move and have to take the car over mountain passes. I did replace the wires and plugs the first time I replaced the ignition control module and the coil. The coil lasted a week the first time, and now it's only lasting a day. Do you think that when I left that spark plug wire not completely connected the first time that it might have harmed the spark plug wire and now there is a ton of resistance in that wire? Could that have harmed the plug itself?