I stand by my comments from over a decade ago

Beyond paranoia (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/beyond-paranoia-498212.html)

The idea that a women from China can hop on a plane ; give birth to a child ;and then return to China with the guarantee that the child has the full rights and privilege of an American citizen is absurd beyond belief.

The same is true for the child of a family who crosses the border illegally .

But that is how the law currently stands due to a complete misunderstanding of the intent of the authors of the 14th amendment .

The citizenship clause of the amendment was intended to permanently reverse one of the worse decisions in SCOTUS history ;the Dredd Scott decision. It was designed to make it clear that the children of former slaves were in fact entitled to American citizenship.


“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”

Later ;by laws passed in Congress ;the; Native Americans were granted full US citizenship even if born on autonomous reservations
Indian Citizenship Act - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Citizenship_Act#:~:text=The%20Indian%20Citi zenship%20Act%20of,United%20States%20are%20US%20ci tizens.)

If the authors of the 14th amendment were told that the amendment now applied to any foreigner (except diplomats ) who were on American territory legally here or not when they were born ....the authors would've spit out their coffee .

I don't know if an amendment is needed to eliminate this absurd cut out or not (I believe Congressional action could change it although I would prefer a permanent fix) . The time to correct this has long passed .

JD Vance addressed the issue on Face the Nation yesterday


MARGARET BRENNAN: There are five legal challenges already to one of the other immigration actions, the order on birthright citizenship. A federal judge, appointed by Ronald Reagan, who I think you'd agree, has some conservative credentials, paused the order to end birthright citizenship, calling it "blatantly unconstitutional." How do you reconcile this challenge to the 14th Amendment to the Constitution?

VICE PRESIDENT VANCE: So, I actually disagree with that judge and these things will be litigated. That's the nature of our constitutional system.

But here's the basic idea of President Trump's view on this. If you are a lawful permanent resident or a legal immigrant who plans to stay, your children, of course, should become American citizens. But let's say you're the child of an ambassador, you don't become--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --but that's not part of it.

VICE PRESIDENT VANCE: Well, that's an important principle--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --there's already a carveout having to do with kids of diplomats.

VICE PRESIDENT VANCE: But we're saying that that carve out should apply to anybody who doesn't plan to stay here. If you come here on vacation and you have a baby in an American hospital, that baby doesn't become an American citizen. If you're an illegal alien and you come here temporarily, hopefully, your child does not become an American citizen by virtue of just having been born on American soil.

It's a very basic principle in American immigration law, that if you want to become an American citizen, and you've done it the right way, and the American people in their collective wisdom have welcomed you into our national community, then you become a citizen. But temporary residents, people who come in here, whether legally or illegally, and don't plan to stay, their children shouldn't become American citizens. I don't know any country that does that, or why we would be different.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, this is a country founded by immigrants. This is a unique country.

VICE PRESIDENT VANCE: Well, this is a country founded by--

This is a very unique country, and it was founded by some immigrants and some settlers. But just because we were founded by immigrants, doesn't mean that 240 years later that we have to have the dumbest immigration policy in the world. No country says that temporary visitors, their children will be given complete access to the benefits and blessings of American citizenship. America should actually look out for the interests of our citizens first, and that means, again, if you're here permanently and lawfully, your kid becomes an American citizen. If you're not here permanently, if you're not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and don't plan to be, why would we make those people's children American citizens permanently?


About that "Reagan appointed judge"

Often horse trading is done during the appointment process . It is typical give and take. We'll allow this legislation to pass if you appoint this judge when an opening occurs. I'm sure such deals are being cut for Trump's cabinet appointees too .

In this case it is U.S. District Court Judge John Coughenour of the Ninth Circus ; liberal bastion known for it's wrong decisions.

But that does not keep the compliant press from saying the judge is a Reagan appointee as if he were a mirror image of Robert Bork.

Great post. I copied the first one to Facebook.

and here the unstated is stated


“Coming out of a presidential election where they lost all seven swing states Democrats are facing a demographic challenge that could reduce their path to winning the U.S. House of Representatives or the White House for the long term.”

Democrats are threatened by shrinking blue states | AP News (https://apnews.com/article/electoral-college-democrats-2030-census-election-republican-0d3c8e8d34cbfc87412a21796dddbd38)

The great migration to red states from blue states ,that milk their constituents and make life a living hell ,has changed the electoral map.

What happens when states like California lose their future constituents to a crack down on illegal immigration ? California alone has over 2 million . (page 5)

Estimates of the Unauthorized Immigrant Population Residing in the United States: January 2018 to January 2022 (https://ohss.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2024-06/2024_0418_ohss_estimates-of-the-unauthorized-immigrant-population-residing-in-the-united-states-january-2018%25E2%2580%2593january-2022.pdf)

Yes it is all in the demographics.


That's why Guv Newson devoted $50 million to "Trump proof " the state. Money better spent fire proofing the state .

Gavin Newsom and California Democrats reach $50M deal to Trump-proof the state - POLITICO (https://www.politico.com/news/2025/01/13/newsom-california-democrats-trump-legal-fights-00197784)


The same is true in most deep blue states

Pritzker warns Trump: 'You come for my people, you come through me' (https://www.sj-r.com/story/news/state/2024/11/08/pritzker-warns-trump-you-come-for-my-people-you-come-through-me/76119550007/)

This is in lieu of them making their state more attractive for Americans to remain in and migrate to.(for now we still have that choice).

John L. Lisenbe - From another site: The idea that a woman from... | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/john.l.lisenbe/posts/pfbid036fgAm9bRMUF65z6yrAsXamqZP5a6LqdUYWyYMjP7ui7 swB3sVh4CT1xunCZLnsKgl?comment_id=645402854524426&notif_id=1737989564535173&notif_t=feed_comment&ref=notif)


The problem with the blue wave of emigration to red states is that they tend to bring, in many cases, their dumb ideas of liberal governance with them, thus making the red states somewhat less red.

Yeah Mark Levin complains of the locust migration . However most of the transformed people I have met in SC appear to have conservative values even as the elected leaders who claim to be conservative are more in the Lindsey Graham conservative
mold (especially Guv McMaster )

"I think our governments will remain virtuous for many centuries; as long as they are chiefly agricultural; and this will be as long as there shall be vacant lands in any part of America. When they get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, they will become corrupt as in Europe."

(Thomas Jefferson's letter to James Madison )
To James Madison from Thomas Jefferson, 20 December 1787 (https://founders.archives.gov/?q=%20Author%3A%22Jefferson%2C%20Thomas%22%20Recip ient%3A%22Madison%2C%20James%22%20Period%3A%22Conf ederation%20Period%22&s=1111311111&r=59)

Copied that last post to FB.

Whatever happened to WG?

she left this cryptic comment yesterday . I have no idea what she meant .


You do realize how difficult life is becoming to so many (including you), don't you?
Another strange nomination by Trump - Page 3 (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=852140&page=3&p=3899552#post3899552)

All the evil Trump does to "undocumented"/"illegal" immigrants or people of color etc. during his reign will come back to haunt us all, even haunt him. Many of those people are low-paid farm workers, tree trimmers, auto mechanics, custodians, low-level hospital workers, warehouse workers, restaurant/fast-food workers, and so many others, all doing jobs that MAGAs refuse to do. (Oh yeah,Trump can make french fries! Yay!!!) Plus, most of the unempathic MAGAs are descendents of immigrants who stole this country from its Native Americans.

Perhaps they should've gotten proper visas and work permits then . Yes I am a descendant of immigrants . My family got screened at Eliss Island . They came with no guarantee they would be given entry . They were screened including a health exam . They followed the rules .

Tell me a time in the post Civil War era where there were not immigration laws that had to be followed.

If you don't like Trump's deportation program you'd love Ike's Operation Wetback.
1.3 Mexicans were deported in a very short time( 4 months ) . Most of those were the indispensable crop pickers .

I am surprised the left encourages worker exploitation like that.

Flashback 1861

If the slaves are freed ,who will pick the cotton ?

All the evil Trump does to "undocumented"/"illegal" immigrants or people of color etc. during his reign will come back to haunt us all, even haunt him. Many of those people are low-paid farm workers, tree trimmers, auto mechanics, custodians, low-level hospital workers, warehouse workers, restaurant/fast-food workers, and so many others, all doing jobs that MAGAs refuse to do. (Oh yeah,Trump can make french fries! Yay!!!) Plus, most of the unempathic MAGAs are descendents of immigrants who stole this country from its Native Americans.I actually have a little sympathy for this argument. I'd like to have seen Trump give these illegals a grace period (6 months??) to get to some federal or state office and get some documentation to allow them to stay for some period of time. But truthfully, that would likely have been overwhelming for millions of people, stupidly and foolishly allowed in by the worst president in my lifetime who should be prosecuted for his dereliction of duty, to have to get some sort of card and get it all entered into a data base. So we are left with this disaster and nothing to do but tell the people to leave and then have an opportunity to return properly documented. It's what we get for voting for a democrat president who was as dumb as a post.

If the correct figure is ten million illegals, and we send them all back by plane with 150 on a plane, then it will take about 66,000 flights to get the job done. Good luck.

I believe the correct figure is closer to 20-25 million over time

Yale Study Finds Twice as Many Undocumented Immigrants as Previous Estimates | Yale Insights (https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/yale-study-finds-twice-as-many-undocumented-immigrants-as-previous-estimates)

Then we are closer to 150,000 flights. It all strikes me as bordering on impossible.

That is if the assumption is that all will be deported . I think ultimately a new Amnesty deal will be negotiated like 1986 Amnesty for the good hard working illegals who are "farm workers, tree trimmers, auto mechanics, custodians, low-level hospital workers, warehouse workers, restaurant/fast-food workers" etc today...... a guarantee of border security Tuesday .
https://otb.cachefly.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/wimpy-hamburgers-i-will-gladly-pay-you-tuesdsay-for-a-hamburger-today-whimpy-sad-hill-news.jpgThen it will be wash ;rinse ;repeat

I think you are right, Tom. Get rid of the worst ones aggressively, BUILD THE WALL, determine not to elect idiots like the last guy again, and then work out some compromise. At this point, that's about all you can do.

But it raised an interesting question. How is it that all of these farm workers, tree trimmers, auto mechanics, custodians, low-level hospital workers, warehouse workers, and restaurant/fast-food workers are able to get jobs when they have no documentation? Sounds like we have a major problem in that area as well.

Agreed . When I was hiring immigrants (and I hired many ) it took a couple weeks of vetting . We were required to copy visas or proof of citizenship etc and send them to Washington

Employment Eligibility Verification | USCIS (https://www.uscis.gov/i-9)

I believe there are a lot of forgeries ; and some employers who bypass this process so they can hire illegals at slave wages .

btw ;my staff was not farm workers, tree trimmers,,,,,, they were highly trained professional manufactures of pharmaceuticals and foods supplements using sophisticated equipment . Even the custodians and warehouse workers operated under strict FDA good manufacturing standard operating procedures .

Trump's EO on birthright citizenship is on judicial hold for now . I expect it will go to SCOTUS as well as all the citizenship questions raised by the 14th amendment language

Assuming SCOTUS rules in favor of Trump's EO . Does that end birthright citizenship.

You would think the answer is yes . You would be wrong.

That is because there is a growing surrogacy industry

According to Google AI

The surrogacy birth industry is a multi-billion dollar industry that involves paying a woman to carry and give birth to a child for another person or couple. The industry is growing due to medical advancements and changes in social attitudes.

So what happens when a Chinese male or any other male from a foreign nation hires an American woman to carry his baby to term .

International gestational surrogacy in the United States, 2014–2020 - Fertility and Sterility (https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(23)02142-8/abstract%20(accessed%20July%2016,%202024)

It's a growing industry

Under the EO the child born is an American even though it may live it's entire life in a foreign nation and have allegiance to that nation.

The New Face of Birth Tourism: Chinese Nationals, American Surrogates, and Birthright Citizenship | The Heritage Foundation (https://www.heritage.org/china/report/the-new-face-birth-tourism-chinese-nationals-american-surrogates-and-birthright)


In the meantime, if such an executive order is deemed legitimate in whole or in part, which is unlikely, it would still likely not apply to intended parents from other countries engaging in surrogacy in the U.S. simply because the scope of the order is to apply to children of parents are residing in the country illegally.

Trump Administration Executive Order re: Birthright Citizenship and what it means for Surrogacy - IFLG - International Fertility Law Group (https://www.iflg.net/trump-administration-executive-order-birthright-citizenship-and-what-it-means-for-surrogacy/)

and many of these clinics service Chinese.

Pacific Fertility Center (PFC) Marks the First Year of its Chinese Patient Program | Fertility Blog (https://www.pacificfertilitycenter.com/blog/pacific-fertility-center-pfc-marks-first-year-its-chinese-patient-program)

A bill in the Senate by Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham does not cover this loophole

C:\Users\mcc\AppData\Local\Temp\MCC25100.loc (https://www.lgraham.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/af3a9413-3386-4292-8985-f01c46a96c7e/birthright-citizenship-act.pdf)

This eliminates the need to have a pregnant woman get on a plane to give birth .A couple in a foreign nation can hire an American women to carry their child to term .Then when they bring the child back to their nation to live they know that child has all the rights and privileges of an American citizen.

SCOTUS will take up the question about birthright citizens. The 14th amendment is straightforward about children born in the country by parents legally here . The open question is ;does it cover children born here by parents not legally here ;or to parents who legally come here for the purpose of giving birth to children they have no intention to raise American ?
Like it or not ;the court will probably not recognize that distinction even though the 14th amendment citizen clause was intended to deal with freed slaves and their children. . It will take an act of Congress or an amendment.

listen to Rep Wesley Hunt's opening statement about reforming birthright citizenship.
Congressman Wesley Hunt Ignites Debate at Birthright Citizenship Hearing! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIXAdjY8Bd8)

He makes it clear that the 14th amendment was intended to make former slaves and their children American citizens .

This whole notion of a birthright citizenship is against the whole founding principle. Free people are not bound to citizenship by birth. We renounced that feudal notion with the Declaration of Independence.

The intent of the clause language 'subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States” is willfully misinterpreted . Senator Jacob Howard who authored the clause made it clear when arguing for passage that native Americans ;who were born within the geographic United States and subject to the jurisdiction were not eligible because the intent of it was "allegiance " Their allegiance was to their tribe . He went on to add that it not only excludes Native Americans. The exact quote is .....

This amendment which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.

The reason this was necessary was to constitutionally reverse the Dredd Scott decision wrongfully decided by the Roger Taney SCOTUS declaring that Blacks and their descendants could never be citizens .

Native Americans were later granted the right under an act of Congress in 1924.
Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 - Immigration History (https://immigrationhistory.org/item/1924-indian-citizenship-act/)

This set a precedent that Congress could use today to define who is eligible .

SCOTUS recent ruling clipped District Judge's powers against nationwide injunctions a little . But it really did nothing to answer the 14th amendment citizenship question .

1st nationwide injunctions. SCOTUS left a crack open that they could be used in class action cases. Even though Alito and Kavanaugh warned them against exploiting the exception in their concurring opinions ; at least 2 of them have already issued injunctions based on a supposed class action that was not really a class action.

Judge's middle finger to the Supreme Court shows why Trump wants to move fast on deportations (https://nypost.com/2025/06/26/opinion/judges-middle-finger-to-the-supreme-court-shows-why-trump-wants-to-move-fast-on-deportations/)

It will still be the practice of Trump's opposition to forum shop courts for judges who will decree universal injunctions by claiming the case meets the class action criteria.

Again ;the actual issue of birthright citizenship was not addressed even though Justice Sotomayor made a rather pretzel logic attempt in her dissent. She claims that SCOTUS has already ruled and there is precedence.

But the main case she cites is one where the parents were lawfully and permanently residents of the US. (US v Wong Kim Park) .This cherry-picking ignores the language of the authors of the 14th amendment which made it clear that the 14th applied to people in the country who were COMPLETELY subject to the jurisdiction AND allegiance to the US


Sen. Lyman Trumbull, a key figure in the drafting and adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, noted at the time that “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States meant subject to its “complete” juris­diction, “[n]ot owing allegiance to anybody else.” The clause therefore mirrored and constitutionalized language that was already in the 1866 Civil Rights Act: “All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States.”
Thomas Cooley, one of the preeminent constitutional law writers of the 19th century, agreed. As he noted in The General Principles of Constitutional Law in America, “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States “meant full and complete jurisdiction to which citizens are generally subject, and not any qualified and partial jurisdiction, such as may consist with allegiance to some other government.”


No, birthright citizenship isn’t required by the Constitution – New York Daily News (https://www.nydailynews.com/2018/10/31/no-birthright-citizenship-isnt-required-by-the-constitution/)