Oregon Gov. Kate Brown privately signed a bill last month ending the requirement for high school students to prove proficiency in reading, writing, and arithmetic before graduation. So Oregon announces that reading, writing, and math are no longer important. But they will, as I understand it, enforce new testing centered around cell phone proficiency and transgender pronouns.

https://news.yahoo.com/oregon-governor-signs-bill-ending-154100667.html

shocking !! What are tax payers paying for if there are no minimal standards ? Reading and math to be replaced with making Molotov cocktails and umbrella tip sharpening .....basic skills . Kind of surprising . You can't teach Communism or the 1619 project curriculum without basic reading skills ..... or are all lessons in video and crayon drawings ?

Pink Floyd --- We Don't Need No Education - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG1fgCHvDNQ)

Kids have mobile phones and youtube these have replaced schooling for the great unwashed

And I've been hoping schools will add courses in penmanship, art and music appreciation, hands-on art and music, first aid, personal finances, et al.

Then you'll be happy to know that Mississippi offers all of those courses. The school I was in was a relatively small school and we taught them all.

Then you'll be happy to know that Mississippi offers all of those courses. The school I was in was a relatively small school and we taught them all.
Grade schools AND high schools? Required or electives?

Depends on the course you're referring to.

Here's the problem schools face. Fifty years ago, schools met for about 7 hours a day, 180 or so days a year. Now schools still meet for about 7 hours a day, 180 or so days a year, but the demands made on school curricula increases and varies practically every year. Everyone has their pet projects. Some are understandable such as computer courses. There has been an on-going emphasis on increased academic rigor for several decades now. I graduated in 71 (1971, not 1871) with 18.5 credits. In our state now you cannot graduate with fewer than, if I remember correctly, 24 credits. Kids are taking algebra 1 in 8th grade to get a jump on grad requirements. So there is an ever increasing demand on time, but time is still 7 hours, 180 days. The powers that be add demands but only rarely remove anything. Special ed requirements are incredibly more complex than even thirty years ago. Many more sports are played and the arts are more emphasized. That's all fine and good, but at some point some of the supposed smart reformers need to wake up and realize that schools are pretty well saturated. There is no more money to throw at the problem. If you want to add things, tell me what you want to take away to free up resources for all of those new courses. Or point out time and resources that are presently being wasted that could be redirected. I can tell you that in our state, that would be very hard to do.

And none of that, of course, excuses the actions being taken by the liberal dems in Oregon to not just lower, but even remove academic standards. It's inexcusable.

What would the daily schedule be for, say, a fourth grader?

Students at my old school spent 50 minutes in PE three times a week. They also spend 50 minutes in art once a week and 50 minutes in music once a week. This was K-4. Cursive writing is a required course in elem. The rest of the day was packed with math, language, science, social studies, lunch, breaktime, library once a week for 50 minutes, remedial work in math and reading, computer work, remedial work for dyslexic kids, talented and gifted courses, special ed courses, and all of that "et al" that you mentioned earlier. By the end of the day, students and teachers alike are tired. They have worked hard. It's largely pleasant, even enjoyable, but still work.

You sure do spend a lot of time in school and yet you learn so little

Yet another unbiased, non-bitter remark from the little Pacific country. Turns out that, as usual, you have your own set of problems.


Australian school children are well behind a host of other countries when it comes to reading, mathematics and science, according to a new report.

The Progress in International Reading Literacy Study has revealed that a quarter of Australia's year 4 students failed to meet the minimum standard in reading for their age.

Australia ranked 27th out of 48 countries in reading, with its mean score similar to that recorded by New Zealand, Poland and Lithuania.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-11/aussie-schools-flatline-in-international-education-tests/4422532?nw=0

Yes well our children arn't left behind where it matters


College Graduation Rate
1. Australia (https://worldtop20.org/australia) – 77
2. Belgium (https://worldtop20.org/belgium) – 74
3. Greece (https://worldtop20.org/greece) – 70
4. Latvia (https://worldtop20.org/latvia) – 70
5. Lithuania (https://worldtop20.org/lithuania) – 70

27th out of 48th. Yeah, that's really great.

What about college vs. vocational education?

Once again JL is focused on the wrong statistic you should research drop out rates your country has a high drop out rate, it is useless keeping kids at school longer to teach them things that many will never use

it is useless keeping kids at school longer to teach them things that many will never use
What are several good ways to keep kids in school, to make learning worthwhile to them and maybe even fun?

It’s the wrong stat because it shows how your Ed system is underperforming?

Our education system doesn't have dropouts

Oh? Then what do you call the 23% who DON'T graduate from college?

And how do you explain this if there are no dropouts???


Drop out rates vary throughout different locations in Australia. Students that attend school in remote communities have a higher chance of not completing year 12 (56.6%), whereas students that come from a wealthy background share an average completion rate of 90%.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropping_out#cite_note-abc.net.au-11) These remote schooling programs serve primarily indigenous students. Indigenous students to have lower rates of completion: the gap between indigenous and non-indigenous year 12 graduates is over 40 percentage points. As a result of this substantial difference, lower socioeconomic students who drop out are considered at-risk-students (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-risk_students) and are ultimately prone to unemployment, incarceration, low-paying employment and having children at early ages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropping_out

Might also point out that our high school completion rate (92%) is higher than yours (85%). Hmmm. That would mean our dropout rate is lower. Oh well. Maybe you should look before you leap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_secondary_education_attainmen t

I call it a more successful program than yours which has a 50% dropout rate. Now you want to bring up drop out rates for indigenous students, how many of your indigenous students drop out. We are well aware of the disadvantage of our indigenous remote area populations but we have implemented specific programs to help these people and none of them live in poverty except by choice. These peoples also retain their traditional languages and so have to jump hurdles you have no idea about because they are not written languages and there is no tradition of reading, maths or science among them. Once again I suggest you focus on fixing your own problems since you have nothing practical to contribute to solving ours

As to those who don't complete higher education, I suggest they are mismatched to the discipline they are being instructed in

I call it a more successful program than yours which has a 50% dropout rateSheer lunacy. I just gave you the data about our dropout rate. Read a little before you post such a ridiculous figure. It's not even close to being correct.

I do read, where do you think I got that statistic but you only believe statistics selectively

You got that statistic from your own prejudiced imagination. It is ridiculously wrong. But you are welcome to post a link if you can find one that agrees with that foolishness.

You only read links that agree with you so why should I bother trying to educate you?

You can't because you have nothing. Your bitterness and hatred have once again led you into a blind alley. No one here is foolish enough to believe the dropout rate in the U.S. is 50%. It is sheer nonsense. You're just mad because, as it turns out, your dropout rate is higher.

"College dropout rates average at 40% each academic year for undergraduate students. College dropout rates are 20% higher for male students in comparison to female students. 44% of students who take part in a four-year college course manage to graduate within the first six years. Public universities have a higher than average dropout rate of 50%."
https://www.thinkimpact.com/college-dropout-rates/

The discussion was about high school dropout rates, not college. Still, I would certainly agree that our college dropout rate is abysmal, though it seems that it is more like 40% than 50%. I would imagine that much of the problem centers around poor planning by young people heading off to college.

This site has a ton of material.


The issue of dropout is most prominent in the American higher education system. Approximately, one in three students who enroll for higher education is never able to earn a degree.


The overall college dropout rate in the U.S. is 40% for undergraduates, wherein the U.S. ranks 19th in graduation among 28 countries in OECD studies.

https://admissionsly.com/college-dropout-rates/

Regarding Australia's performance, this makes me very suspicious of what they are doing. "Essentially anyone who wants to go to university can do so through a number of alternative pathways — even if he or she has done poorly in high school or dropped out. Universities have been required to increase supports for these students — to get them in and then to graduate them."

https://hechingerreport.org/australia-beating-u-s-graduating-first-generation-low-income-college-students/

Every year, over 1.2 million students drop out of high school in the United States alone. That’s a student every 26 seconds – or 7,000 a day.[1] (https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-high-school-dropout-rates#fn1)
About 25% of high school freshmen fail to graduate from high school on time.[2] (https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-high-school-dropout-rates#fn2)
The U.S., which had some of the highest graduation rates of any developed country, now ranks 22nd out of 27 developed countries.[3] (https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-high-school-dropout-rates#fn3) https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-high-school-dropout-rates#:~:text=Every%20year%2C%20over%201.2%20milli on%20students%20drop%20out,to%20graduate%20from%20 high%20school%20on%20time.%20%5B2%5D

About 25% of high school freshmen fail to graduate from high school on time.[2] (https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-high-school-dropout-rates#fn2)

If you check the reference, that figure is for Los Angeles, not for the entire country. The national drop out rate is around 10 to 15%. I don't like dishonest articles like that one.

Bear in mind that the national drop out rate does not factor in those students who later get a GED.

More info. "In 2017–18, the ACGRs (graduates from HS in four years) for American Indian/Alaska Native2 (74 percent), Black (79 percent), and Hispanic (81 percent) public high school students were below the U.S. average of 85 percent. The ACGRs for White (89 percent) and Asian/Pacific Islander3 (92 percent) students were above the U.S. average." That does not factor in those students who get a diploma in a fifth year of high school.

https://nces.ed.gov/FastFacts/display.asp?id=805

If you check the reference, that figure is for Los Angeles, not for the entire country. The national drop out rate is around 10 to 15%. I don't like dishonest articles like that one.
Please quote the sentence(s) in that referenced article that say that.

This is the article referenced, but there is no link to get to it. Still, it clearly says it is about Los Angeles.

Silver, David, Marisa Saunders, and Estela Zarate. "What Factors Predict High School Graduation in the Los Angeles Unified School District." Attendance Counts. Accessed February 18, 2015.

Now I did what you did not do. I troubled myself to find the article. Here it is. I'll let you browse through the 25 or so pages looking for the stat. But it is simply not true to say that the 4 year dropout rate for the entire country is 25%. I've given you plenty of evidence for that. All that is necessary is for you to read it. The NCES is the National Center for Education Statistics. It is widely recognized and accepted as opposed to "dosomething.org", but take your pick. All up to you.

http://www.attendancecounts.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/LAUSD-Study-2008.pdf

I read it before I posted it as a link (with .pdf and also a wp text)

I was referring to your post 28. You have never posted the pdf link I posted in link 31. That was the reference used in the "dosomething.org" site. The Thinkimpact site you linked to in post 26 had a gazillion stats with no specific references as to where they came from. So I just picked one of the random links they had. It took me to "admissionsly". That site said the college dropout rate was 33%. So with all due respect, your links do not agree with each other.

Of course. As always, I'm bad; you're good.

Nothing's been said about being bad or good. It's just that you cannot respond to points that are made. The college dropout rate is not 50%, and I know you are disappointed about that, but it's simply the way it is. But as I said 10 posts back, I completely agree with you that the dropout rate in our colleges is too high. There are many things wrong with our universities, excessive cost being one of them. It puts higher ed out of reach of low income people, and means that far too many young people graduate with a load of debt around their necks. So we are basically in agreement. OK??

So we are basically in agreement. OK??
Nope. Higher ed (college) is too often a crock -- and much too expensive for what is supposedly achieved. We need much more teaching for and learning of practical careers.

You said, "Higher ed (college) is too often a crock -- and much too expensive for what is supposedly achieved."

I said, " There are many things wrong with our universities, excessive cost being one of them. It puts higher ed out of reach of low income people, and means that far too many young people graduate with a load of debt around their necks."

So in what way are we not in agreement? Sure looks like agreement to me.

You said, "Higher ed (college) is too often a crock..."
Do you know what I meant by that?

Perhaps not. Expand on that.

But we do agree that the cost is too high. Correct???

Perhaps not. Expand on that.
What did you learn in college that helped you throughout your career?

But we do agree that the cost is too high. Correct???
Yes.

What did you learn in college that helped you throughput your career?I was an Animal Science major. I never really went into that field since jobs were few and far between at that time and I was too uncertain of myself to really pursue it well, but when I started teaching science, much of it was very useful. My masters program for becoming a school principal was rather poorly done. Thankfully I worked as an assistant in an inner city school for three years with a principal who was very good. I learned more in that time by far than I did in the college courses.

But bear in mind that this thread was really about what is being done in Oregon in removing all testing requirements for high school graduation. It really amounts to child abuse.

And that's pretty much what happened when I was in college -- "So Oregon announces that reading, writing, and math are no longer important. But they will, as I understand it, enforce new testing centered around cell phone proficiency and transgender pronouns."

Of course, the three Rs are exceedingly important important subjects that should be taught at the elementary level -- PLUS proper cellphone use and LGBT issues.

My undergrad curriculum had dissolved into courses that we would "need" in order to successfully answer questions on "Jeopardy" (which I am able to do), rather than manage and teach a classroom of 30 children. Years later, when I attended a Catholic university's secular master's program, I learned so much during my two internships (18 month's worth) and the very informative yet practical coursework.

But they will, as I understand it, enforce new testing centered around cell phone proficiency and transgender pronouns."That was actually sarcasm.

I think we might agree that there are some things which are difficult to teach in a purely classroom setting. Surgeons, for instance, do classroom work but also do a LOT of surgical work. Teaching is the same way. I went right from being an animal science major to teaching school. I figured most of it out on my own because I had to. What I learned in courses afterwards added very little.

so, if I understand you, you are self made man, and a very flawed example of your handiwork

Could very well be. Depends, I suppose, on who you ask. However, since you started your sentence with a lower case letter and ended it with no punctuation mark, then I guess it can be said we are quite similar in being "flawed examples".

Is that how it's taught in Australia? Or could it be a result of the high school dropout rate??

Well by your definition I am a high school drop out but with two fellowships and a higher degree. What you do in your teens doesn't define your life. I have sailed before the mast, pioneered a vineyard, and been a leader in my endeavours. So my punctuation isn't always PC here, but then I didn't have the benefit of a US high school education where you are taught to look down upon others because they don't meet your standard of perfection. When I was at school, there wasn't the same emphasis on finishing secondary school as there is today, because jobs were plentiful and the attraction of earning money was strong. In any case, I was the child of a working class family living in an industrial area. a family that had lived through the great depression. There are no longer any high school drop outs here, a standard of secondary education is mandated, not optional

There are no longer any high school drop outs here, a standard of secondary education is mandated, not optional No high school dropouts in Australia? That has already been shown to be a ridiculously false claim.

I didn't say you were a high school dropout. I do question your writing skills, but this is just a message board, so perhaps you are simply being overly informal.

No high school dropouts in Australia? That has already been shown to be a ridiculously false claim.

I didn't say you were a high school dropout. I do question your writing skills, but this is just a message board, so perhaps you are simply being overly informal.

let's call it lazy, shall we and a tip of the hat to not being PC and following your incredibly bad spelling and grammar rules

Lazy? Well, I wouldn't go that far in your case. It's bitterness, jealousy, and hatred that's really the big concern.

Not for me, I wouldn't be in your shoes if you paid me. You see I don't believe the myth, they don't serve koolaid here

Do you have anything other than myths and shoes? At least you aren't contending that there are no dropouts in Australia. That's progress of sorts.

You know, you are like our legendary monster, the Bunyip, you keep popping up in unexpected places. No I take that back, you are like that other monster that inhabits the shadows, the Yowie.

oh to be by the billabong when the Yowies are in bloom. Yowoeeeee!

Hmm. This is still appropriate. "Do you have anything other than myths and shoes (and Yowies)? At least you aren't contending that there are no dropouts in Australia. That's progress of sorts."

The only dropouts we have are the dropbears that terrorise Yankee tourists

That's already been shown to be untrue.

How do you know? Have you ever been here? This is a delightfully place, full of protected species, Koalas, emus, dingoes, aboriginees, just one big national park and barbquearea. I look our my window to the far away hills and thank God I am so blessed

How do you know?Because there is an abundance of reference materials out there that show otherwise. I've already posted them. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=848344&p=3872860#post3872860

I'm glad you like your country. I'm sure it's a wonderful place in many ways. I have no idea why you cannot love and appreciate where you live without constantly tearing down and criticizing where I live. There's a bitterness there that is hard to explain.

I've told you before, I don't like the actions of your government, I'm sure the landscape is beautiful, the people warm and loving, but, something gets lost there somewhere

Sure looks and sounds like bitterness at work. Just sayin.

No I just an observer, I wish I had something else to observe but your actions dominate the news cycle

Bitterness. Jealousy. Very ugly to watch.

Bitterness. Jealousy. Very ugly to watch.

Then don't watch, the solution is in your hands

This from a Wall Street Journal op ed :
'The Real Structural Racism
Is it OK that black eighth graders aren’t proficient in math and reading?"



Embarrassed by the way our big city public school systems are failing black children, progressives answer not by making it easier for these kids to get into schools where black children are achieving, whether this be charter or parochial schools. Instead, they focus on getting rid of the embarrassment by getting rid of the achievement tests that expose it, doubling down on race preferences and trying to hamstring the schools that show black children can and do learn in the right environment.

The Real Structural Racism - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/systemic-structural-racism-naep-report-card-harvard-law-suit-supreme-court-affirmative-action-black-educational-achievement-11630956788)

That should be the question of the day. It is obvious that we are discriminating against poor blacks by confining them to under performing schools. It should be a national disgrace.

Shaffer said that expecting students to use proper syntax and grammar “are all made up rules. They're arbitrary. They were created by Westerners in power, in linguistic justice” and part of "white supremacy" that "runs deep," adding that she tries “to undermine that BS in my classroom as much as I can.”

"We study linguistics and the rules that we actually use to communicate instead of the made-up rules that white supremacy created for when we write papers and stuff, which is what scholars call the 'language of power.'"

She continued, "Well, let's look at how we write essays [where we] start with an introduction that includes a thesis, always cite your sources, use transition words like ‘however’ and ‘therefore.’ These are all made-up rules. They were created by Westerners in power. Which got me thinking, what if I started my school year with a unit honoring how we talk rather than teaching students how to write properly."

California English teacher says proper grammar is ‘white supremacist,’ refuses to teach it | The Post Millennial | thepostmillennial.com (https://thepostmillennial.com/california-english-teacher-says-proper-grammar-is-white-supremacist-refuses-to-teach-it)

Good for her! Now maybe she can tackle that "white supremacist" math next. All of this 2 + 2 = 4 stuff is just a creation of western power-seekers.

The liberals are still hot on the trail of educational equality. A city university in NY is being occupied by the students. Their demand? That all students receive a grade of A in every course in which they are enrolled. This is from the article. '


"We demand that every student receives a final course grade of A as well as the removal of I/Z grades for the Fall 2022 semester." The letter insisted, "Attendance shall have no bearing on course grade." (According to the New School’s website, an "I" grade is a "temporary incomplete" and a "z" grade is an "unofficial withdrawal.")

If the students genuinely believe that idea is a sensible proposal, then it tells us all we need to know about the quality of education they have received so far since, according to their demands, a student who does not attend class and does no work should still receive an A in the course. They evidently cannot understand that giving out A's to everyone makes the grade of A entirely meaningless. It would amount to nothing more than a participation trophy.