Get behind a bill most people support ;like Covid relief .Then load it up with 5,593 pages of porkulus . Get your $600 check ? Good for you.
But how about these other spending priorities ?

$86 million for assistance to Cambodia; $130 million to Nepal, $135 million to Burma, $453 million to Ukraine, $700 million to Sudan. $1.3 billion for Egypt and the Egyptian military which mostly buys Ruskie equipment . $710 million to provide Syrians with weapons and training.

For Pakistan among it's benefits includes $15 million for democracy programs and $10 million for gender programs.


$40 million for The Kennedy Center operating expenses, which received $25 million in the last covid bill. It is not even open at this time. $1 billion for the Smithsonian and an additional $154 million for the National Gallery of Art.


There are funds to study the 1908 Springfield Illinois race riot .
There are funds for the creation of 2 museums ....Woman's History and Latino Museum.

There are funds to create a commission to educate “consumers about the dangers associated with using or storing portable fuel containers for flammable liquids near an open flame."

There is a statement about the Dali Lama's reincarnation or his likely successor ..


The Senate gets $89,615,280 to buy new furniture.
Congress gave themselves a $100,000 raise for all their tireless efforts at spending other people's money ;and monopoly money that does not exist .
Rand Paul blasted both sides of the aisle for this wreckless spending right on ! He may be the only voice of sanity left on Capitol Hill
Senator Paul: Stop Piling Debt on Future Generations, Open the Economy, and Cut Waste in the Budget - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p7P4EOqCG8&feature=youtu.be)

one day you will prevent these add ons to a bill so that debate is about one issue. There appears to be a voice crying in the wilderness of an empty hall

This gets my vote for post of the year. I'm copying it to Facebook.

I'm sure their "fact checkers " will accuse your post of missing context . What is hilarious to me is that the proposal the administration started with was a $1.8 trillion direct for covid relief and it ended up being halved and loaded with pork. And they shelved the most controversial proposals which would've even jacked up the bill more .

So very true. It's the result of pols who have figured out that we, the people, no longer care about balanced budgets. The day will come when we will, but it will likely be a sad day. I can tell you this. It's hard to get much traction in getting anyone interested in the subject.

The Tea Party was formed over outrage about a $900 Billion bill. Here we have another $900 billion bill and the whine is that it is not nearly enough .

Yeah. When Brother Biden gets in, he has already promised to spend two or three tril more of the Monopoly money.

By the time Biden gets there you will be out of monopoly money and will have to use bananas

Just make sure you’re brushing up on your Chinese.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=trump+as+the+grinch+who+stole+christmas&docid=608013107347719846&mid=16825B0077ECF0DB705C16825B0077ECF0DB705C&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
How Trump stole Christmas he vetoed all the goodies

We need someone to do a LOT of vetoing. Only way to get the budget under control. I feel pretty sure that KH/JB won't be the ones doing it.

Just make sure you’re brushing up on your Chinese.

Ne How Ma

I suggest you take your own advice, the Chinese own a lot of US Treasury Notes, much more of yours than they do of ours

Xie Xie

Ne How Ma


Ah Bou How

I suggest you take your own advice, the Chinese own a lot of US Treasury Notes, much more of yours than they do of oursThey actually own a fairly small percentage of the total, something under 10% as I remember.

US debt is $26 trillion .China finances $1.1 trillion. So let's say China decided to destabilize by sell US debt . Do you think there wouldn't be other nations and private actors who would not buy ? China sold off $180 billion in 2015 and the market did not budge.

The concern here is that we keep on adding on to the debt ;not who finances it. The concern here is that fiscal restraint has been stricken from the political debate except for Paul cry from the wilderness. Half of the country think we should be getting into greater debt with their gimmee policies .

Rich people don't care about the debt or the government. Never did. Who you guys trying to fool? You only scream when not enough pie lands in YOUR plate.

There is nothing wrong with small government tal, it is somewhere for fewer people to be employed, but without debt things don't get done, no new bridges, no new aircraft carriers, ah what's the use................

If you're a small country then a small government may be cool, but small we are not and neither is the handling of the peoples business. We may be building planes and boats but bridges not so much. Big government may be inefficient, but smaller government is no better, it's even worse.

without debt things don't get done, no new bridges, no new aircraft carriers, ah what's the use................Things get done without debt all the time, a fact that we will be facing at some point in the future. The stupidity of our Congress is to pass a 900 billion dollar stim package which only sends 150 bil or so to people. Billions and billions go overseas or to large businesses in the U.S. It is lunacy with tax money, and it is far beyond lunacy with borrowed money.

Things get done without debt all the time, a fact that we will be facing at some point in the future. The stupidity of our Congress is to pass a 900 billion dollar stim package which only sends 150 bil or so to people. Billions and billions go overseas or to large businesses in the U.S. It is lunacy with tax money, and it is far beyond lunacy with borrowed money.

Yes but it is a lunacy that is purely your own. Your politicians have been on a steady diet of pork for decades and there is no such thing as fiscal restraint, completely unknown to the current generation. you have grasshopper minds over there, noone can stay on subject but run around pursuing their own agenda, so you spend billions on non essentials

Yes but it is a lunacy that is purely your own.Sure it is.

"Australia is set to forecast a record budget deficit of around A$200 billion ($142.7 billion) for 2020/21 as the government ramps up spending to support the coronavirus-hit economy, with its balance sheet seen in the red for at least the next four years."

https://www.reuters.com/article/australia-budget-preview-int-idUSKBN26M7P5

You've had a budget deficit every year since 09. Selfish, money-grubbing pols can be found everywhere along with a large number of dumb voters who enjoy the temporary fruits of deficit spending.

Sure it is.

"Australia is set to forecast a record budget deficit of around A$200 billion ($142.7 billion) for 2020/21 as the government ramps up spending to support the coronavirus-hit economy, with its balance sheet seen in the red for at least the next four years."

https://www.reuters.com/article/australia-budget-preview-int-idUSKBN26M7P5

You've had a budget deficit every year since 09. Selfish, money-grubbing pols can be found everywhere along with a large number of dumb voters who enjoy the temporary fruits of deficit spending.

again you know very little, the budget deficits were forced upon us because of the GFC, an american financial pandemic. We were just getting back to balanced budget when covid 19 arrived from somewhere over there. Our deficit spending has been to support the unemployed and small business owners who have had to close, not to support a myriad of give me's and yes, it may take a few years to claw back, but we have the discipline to do that

Yeah. There's always those excuses. "It's someone else's fault. We have things we need to buy. We'll get it all under control...tomorrow."

Yeah. There's always those excuses. "It's someone else's fault. We have things we need to buy. We'll get it all under control...tomorrow."

We are a more compassionate society than you are. While we have both conservative and socialist politics at play our differences are not radicalised and so common sense prevails. It is our conservative government who have taken these measures and not in an election year. We take a longer view on some issues and a more short term view on others. Our goals have always been to have a balanced budget and before the GFC hit we were actually paying down debt, but like AGW and the GFC and covid19 we are continually beset by these northern hemisphere problems, things that do not originate with us and have little relevance other than disruption to our unique way of life

The sun is shinning here today as it does on at least 260 days of the year and the issues of covid being on the other side of the mountains seem far away, even though there are a few cases being recorded and dealt with. We are the envy of the world and so your opinion of us and the way we manage things is just american envy

In terms of private giving to charity, we are about six times ahead of you, so don't try and tell me about your wonderful compassion. Many Americans don't use the excuse of, "Let the gov take care of it."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_charitable_donation



but like AGW and the GFC and covid19 we are continually beset by these northern hemisphere problems, things that do not originate with usAlways someone else's fault. I'm not suggesting you have not had to deal with some issues not of your making, but we didn't exactly invent the COVID virus if you remember.

The only solution to deficit spending is to not engage in deficit spending. As long as we retain our cherished excuses, it will not happen. The only proper response is to say, "It's our deal, and we have to solve it ASAP." It will be painful, but if we value our children and grandchildren, we will embrace it.

In terms of private giving to charity, we are about six times ahead of you, so don't try and tell me about your wonderful compassion. Many Americans don't use the excuse of, "Let the gov take care of it."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_charitable_donation


Always someone else's fault. I'm not suggesting you have not had to deal with some issues not of your making, but we didn't exactly invent the COVID virus if you remember.

The only solution to deficit spending is to not engage in deficit spending. As long as we retain our cherished excuses, it will not happen.

I don't know if you did not invent covid, it has not yet proven whether anyone did but as a weapon it is certainly suprisingly effective against you

As to charitable giving you have more millionaires and billionaires with tax problems than we do, and our social security system means there are not as many destitute people to deal with. Which would your rather have, social problems and the wealthy giving or no social problems? Your attitude beggars belief, you are an idiot of the first order, but you come from a long line so it isn't your fault but in reality, it is your fault because you can't see beyond the end of your nose. You cling to out moded ideas and say how superior we are you are diluded

I don't know if you did not invent covidYou are delusional.


As to charitable giving you have more millionaires and billionaires with tax problems than we do,Anyone who knows even a few things about income taxes in America knows that giving to charity is not the way to increase profits. It's a ridiculous idea that suggests that giving away a dollar to save thirty cents is a good idea.


and our social security system means there are not as many destitute people to deal with. How do you know that?


Your attitude beggars belief, you are an idiot of the first order, but you come from a long line so it isn't your fault but in reality, it is your fault because you can't see beyond the end of your nose.One thing I have learned about you. You don't like it when you are confronted with facts which disagree with your prejudiced ideas about your country and ours. We have our problems to be sure, but it's your pretending that everything is rosy in Aussie land that is pretty crazy.

You are delusional.



One thing I have learned about you. You don't like it when you are confronted with facts which disagree with your prejudiced ideas about your country and ours. We have our problems to be sure, but it's your pretending that everything is rosy in Aussie land that is pretty crazy.

It is you who are delusional, what you don't like is that someone has given the lie to your ideas and demonstrated that there are much more successful methods of dealing with these things. You think me prejudiced because I don't kowtow to american thinking, but in reality everything is rosy here, the sun shines, the economy grows, we have a trade war with China and we can laugh, because it isn't doom and gloom, hundreds of thousands are not dying, our hospitals have beds to conduct elective surgeries, the future looks really good, and our borders are closed

someone has given the lie to your ideasAnd you've done that when?


but in reality everything is rosy here, the sun shines, the economy grows, we have a trade war with China and we can laugh, because it isn't doom and gloom, hundreds of thousands are not dying, our hospitals have beds to conduct elective surgeries, the future looks really good, and our borders are closedYou sure weren't laughing about that China trade war or the Afghan problems. Rather strange for someone who is "laughing", don't you think?


a very good reason has just been advanced for Australia and other foreign forces to leave Afghanistan. Soldiers cannot be trusted to act lawfully and these are not the first instances of war crimes being perpetrated in this long and bloody conflict. But we don't need to be there just leave them to the tender mercies of the Muslims, we have all heard what atrocities they are capable of.

Unfortunately the news from China isn't all fake, China has initiated a trade war with Australia and I'll bet our so called allies will take advantage of this and jump into supplying what were our markets led of course by our fair weather friend, the US of A."the Usury States of Amnesia "you do realise that we are now on the front line of your trade war with China. No matter we will find other markets for our products, they demand a premium in the world

And you've done that when?

You sure weren't laughing about that China trade war or the Afghan problems. Rather strange for someone who is "laughing", don't you think?

Yes as I posted recently China has shot themselves in the foot with their trade war with us so we can laugh, while trade with them is big it is a small part of our economy. The "afghan" problems have left the news scene so they will be dealt with in the courts where that sort of thing belongs, it gave comfort to our enemies for a short time. We are of a happy disposition and so we laugh in the face of adversity. As a Christian I know the power of prayer, enough said, shusssss

As a Christian I know the power of prayer, enough said, shusssssOn that we can certainly agree.

Well I guess it's a start for a new year

The power of prayer isn't just an exclusive Christian domain, no more than marriage is.

No, but I don't hear Muslim testimony that prayer works

No, but I don't hear Muslim testimony that prayer works
Muslims don't pray to ask God for stuff.

Muslims don't pray to ask God for stuff.Do they go to the Father through Jesus? I seem to recall that Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me."

Do they go to the Father through Jesus? I seem to recall that Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me."
They certainly are more dedicated to a prayer life and prayer ritual than Christians are!

https://www.wikihow.com/Pray-in-Islam#:~:text=%20Performing%20the%20Muslim%20Praye rs%20%201%20Make,your%20chest%2C%20or%20between%20 the%20two%3B%20More%20

They certainly are more dedicated to a prayer life and prayer ritual than Christians are!Question dodger.

Question dodger.
You and I both know the answer to your question.

Yeah, but I'm the only one willing to say it. Wonder why? And that's not meant to be snarky. I really do wonder why you are so frequently reluctant to answer questions like those.

Yeah, but I'm the only one willing to say it. Wonder why?
It's so obvious an answer....

That's why no one participates here. These threads fall apart into pointlessness.

To say that Jesus is the only way to God is pointless? Perhaps to you, but not to me.

To say that Jesus is the only way to God is pointless? Perhaps to you, but not to me.
You knew the answer. Why start grief with the question?

I didn't ask the question of me. I asked it of you. But's it's alright. You don't have to answer if you don't want to. It's not the end of the world. We can just move on.

I didn't ask the question of me. I asked it of you. But's it's alright. You don't have to answer if you don't want to. It's not the end of the world. We can just move on.
If Muslims believed in Jesus as Savior, they wouldn't be Muslims but would be Christians. And as I said earlier, "They certainly are more dedicated to a prayer life and prayer ritual than Christians are!" And why wouldn't I, a Christian, know the answer to your question?

they are dedicated to ritual, endless intoning the same words is a self righteous thing, but a deception that many follow

Jesus was a Jew, and to the Muslims, a prophet as was the founder of Islam Muhammad. Humans love their labels to separate, while all are the same.

they are dedicated to ritual, endless intoning the same words is a self righteous thing, but a deception that many follow
Like saying the rosary?

wouldn't I, a Christian, know the answer to your question?That's not what troubles me. What troubles is why, as a confessing Christian, you would simply avoid the question rather than answer it.

I think Clete had a good reply, and I would agree with you that saying the rosary is largely meaningless repetition.

That's not what troubles me. What troubles is why, as a confessing Christian, you would simply avoid the question rather than answer it.
Why did you even bother to ask it?

I think Clete had a good reply, and I would agree with you that saying the rosary is largely meaningless repetition.
Yet is there benefit in that "meaningless repetition"? Why do Catholics say the rosary?

Why did you even bother to ask it? Don't worry about it if it bothers you so much. I love answering any kind of question of that sort, but some people don't. It's fine with me.

As to the rosary, I'm not Catholic and not real familiar with it, so I'll leave that to them.

Why did you even bother to ask it?

Yet is there benefit in that "meaningless repetition"? Why do Catholics say the rosary?
It is called religion

It is called religion
No, there's more to it than that. I'll do some research.

From one site:
"With regular rosary prayer, a person will experience significant improvement in their overall mental health. Typical mental health benefits of praying the rosary include: Increased focus and attention. Mental clarity; clears the mind of distractions and negative thoughts. Better thought control and less intrusive thoughts. Fights depression.

Also, improves memory (short term and long term), decreases anxiety and fear, encourages positive thinking and a better outlook on life, reduces stress, increases ability to relax and unwind, is a powerful sleep aid (promotes a restful night's sleep), and increases an overall sense of well-being."
http://www.erosary.com/rosary/benefits/mental.htm#:~:text=With%20regular%20rosary%20praye r%2C%20a%20person%20will%20experience,thought%20co ntrol%20and%20less%20intrusive%20thoughts.%20Fight s%20depression.

Believe what you want all it is doing is inducing a meditative state

Believe what you want all it is doing is inducing a meditative state
I'm not Catholic but I can easily go along with the conclusions on that website. Saying the rosary stills your mind and pulls it into a meditative state so you can concentrate on blessings from God.

if you say the rosary as an exercise in meaningless repetition then that is all you get from it .There are 4 major prayers . The Apostle's Creed which states our faith in a prayer ;the Lord's prayer which Jesus taught us.; the Hail Mary which praises Mary from two Luke quotes (1:28 and 1:42) .Then we ask Mary to intercede for us and for all sinners . It concludes with Glory Be which is doxology in praise for the Trinity (a fundamental Catholic belief) .To the folks who regularly recite the rosary they are getting much more out of it than just a meditative state ,and it is presumptive to assume that .

Honest question. Where in the NT do Catholics get the idea that we should pray to or praise Mary?

Honest question. Where in the NT do Catholics get the idea that we should pray to or praise Mary?

I'm the last person to explain church doctrine .My simplistic take is that I pray for people all the time for their health and well being (James 5:16) ;and all I'm really asking for is for God to hear my prayer . When we ask Mary and the Saints to intercede we are not asking them to do any more than what we are doing ourselves when we ask Jesus directly .We are not praying to her . We are asking her to intervene .
As for praising her, all we are doing is what the angels did . "Hail, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you; blessed are you among women."(Luke 1:28)

The NT says Jesus is the king in fulfilment of OT prophesy .(Luke 1:32) .Mary is the king's mother (Luke 1:43).We believe in the intercession of saints . Mary being the most important saint because she is pure and "favored" means that Mary's intercession is the most powerful and important .

It was Mary after all who had Jesus' ear at the wedding at Cana .Even after he told her it was not his time yet ,he performed a miracle .In doing this he asserts his authority and at the same time submits to her request. She in return told the servants to do whatever Jesus told them to do. If a request is granted it is his will be done .

Thank you for the explanation.

Honest question. Where in the NT do Catholics get the idea that we should pray to or praise Mary?nowhere Jesus taught prayer to the father and down played any veneration of Mary intercession is asking God not the saints
one of the reasons i left catholicism is it all seemed meaningless. Christianity is about relationship that cannot be achieved with repartition

Christianity is about relationship that cannot be achieved with repartition"Repartition"?

Christianity is about relationship that cannot be achieved with repartition
The repetition is for the person praying, not for (to influence?) the One being prayed to.

As for praising Mary, all we are doing is what the angels did . "Hail, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you; blessed are you among women."(Luke 1:28)

We believe in the intercession of saints . Mary being the most important saint because she is pure and "favored" means that Mary's intercession is the most powerful and important.

“He has brought down the powerful from their thrones, and lifted up the lowly; he has filled the hungry with good things, and sent the rich away empty.”


Luke's rendering of the Magnificat of Mary and the Bethlehem narrative with the inn having no room for Mary and Joseph, and the lowly shepherds being the first witnesses of the new baby as hope for the world born in a manger with his homeless parents is not the conquering messiah many were hoping for, but one from the bottom of society in a time of political unrest and massive inequality — sort of like now.

Any gospel that isn’t good news for the poor is simply not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Period. Limited human comprehension of the world’s greatest mysteries is less important than what can transform lives and the world.

Limited human comprehension of the world’s greatest mysteries is less important than what can transform lives and the world. If human comprehension of this great mystery is indeed limited, then how can anyone make any hard and fast statements of truth on the nature of the Gospel?

Poor in what respect?

my limited comprehension of the Good News is that it is for all. Luke 2:10

My limited comprehension would agree with you.

my limited comprehension of the Good News is that it is for all. Luke 2:10

Your limited comprehension is more than enough for Luke's plain statement.

Or for this. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have life eternal."

Or this. "Look unto me and be saved, all ye ends of the earth, for I am God and there is no other."

Or for this. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have life eternal."
If someone has never heard or can't comprehend the Gospel message because of mental illness, a developmental disability, cognitive deficits, then what?

If someone has never heard or can't comprehend the Gospel message because of mental illness, a developmental disability, cognitive deficits, then what?

Well, let's see. You have asked that question a good five or six times, so much that it is difficult to see what your point is. But when you read this passage from Romans 1, what does it say to you? "19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Well, let's see. You have asked that question a good five or six times, so much that it is difficult to see what your point is.
...because I have a serious concern about several loved ones.

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
Yet God Who extends unconditional love takes frailities in understanding into consideration.

God Who extends unconditional love takes frailities in understanding into consideration.It is generally accepted that God does not hold children or those with mental issues accountable.

Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.
Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

...because I have a serious concern about several loved ones.I can sympathize with that. I'm in the same situation.

If someone has never heard or can't comprehend the Gospel message because of mental illness, a developmental disability, cognitive deficits, then what?

Even better - if someone has heard the Gospel, comprehends it, and decides not to believe that Jesus is the only way to "life eternal", then what?

Rhetorical question.

We already know the bizarre answer of the Christian fundamentalist. Even the Catholic Church, the oldest and largest Christian denomination tracing all the way back to Peter and the words of Jesus himself, does not hold that belief. The Catholic Church holds itself to be the fullest answer but never the only answer.

Catholics believe that Jesus is the only way to eternal life . Vatican Ii clarified that one doesn't have to be Catholic to obtain eternal life. One living their life conforming to the way of the Lord is saved . But the even better news is that the truly repentant can obtain salvation even up to the moment of death Luke 23 39-43

Catholics believe that Jesus is the only way to eternal life

The Catholic Church teaches nothing of the sort. Your statement puts Gandhi in hell among all the others who led exemplary lives without believing in Jesus.


Vatican II clarified that one doesn't have to be Catholic to obtain eternal life.

They did more than "clarify". They rejected their own dogma that "there is no salvation outside the Church".

Vatican II document Lumen Gentium, 16) states:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.


Vatican II’s pastoral constitution on the Church in the modern world, Gaudium et Spes, taught that conscience is “the sanctuary of man, where he is alone with God, whose voice echoes within him”. The CChurch hedged on this, claiming a conscience must be properly "formed".

In Amoris Laetitia , Pope Francis maintained that Catholic consciences "must be informed but not replaced". And he stressed the distinction between one’s conscience—where God reveals himself—and one’s ego that thinks it can do as it pleases.


One living their life conforming to the way of the Lord is saved.

How do you define "conforming to the way of the Lord"?


But the even better news is that the truly repentant can obtain salvation even up to the moment of death Luke 23 39-43

And Matthew 20:9

John 14 6 I've done more than my share of religious discussion in this thread for the year . Happy New Year

John 14 6 I've done more than my share of religious discussion in this thread for the year . Happy New Year

Tom, so true to form.

When you receive posts that show you to be wrong as in this case, you run away like a scared rabbit. I first noticed that in your inability to defend your take on socialism, meaning you were clueless about it. Now it's the Catholic Church. A man would have acknowledged his errors.

The lesson for you is to not speak about that which you know nothing.

Even better - if someone has heard the Gospel, comprehends it, and decides not to believe that Jesus is the only way to "life eternal", then what?



John 14:6 – Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Acts 4:12 – And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
John 3:16 – For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Rom. 10:9 – Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
2 Cor. 4:4 – In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
John 3:36 – Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Acts 10:43 – To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.
John 8:28 - "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”




And then there is the Matthew 25 passage which has been posted many times.


Athos does not like to believe what Jesus said, nor any scriptures which do not agree with his preconceived ideas. That is his choice, but a day is coming when Jesus will also exercise His choice. What a somber warning.

There ya go with your proof passages again, JL, those "gotcha" Bible verses. If we go with those, it sounds like only (maybe?) 829 people will end up in heaven, people who were able to cut the mustard according to the narrow qualifications you have squeezed out of the NT.

Uhm...10 passages amounts to an avalanche of “proof passages” I would think. How many would you consider sufficient? As to your figure of 829, I have no idea of where that comes from. The glory is in the simplicity of the arrangement. “Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone...and he who believes in him will not be disappointed.”

And by the way, where is your accusation of meanness towards Athos for his ugly comments towards Tom? Why are you so selective in your disapproval? And why did you not correct Athos for his use of the ONE passage from Luke as a proof text??? Why the seeming prejudice? If you want to be taken seriously, then shouldn’t you be consistent?

If you want to be taken seriously, then shouldn’t you be consistent?
Athos and I are. You and Tom missed the boat.

Athos and I are. You and Tom missed the boat.Thank you for taking absolutely nothing seriously. But I will agree with you on one point. You are Athos certainly are consistently opposed to the idea of exalting Christ as the source of salvation for man. If I was you, I would be worried about that.

You can tell when it is a slow news day when we start debating the good news of Jesus the one piece of news which is beyond debate

That's probably easier than defending the lying cheating incompetent dufus the American people just booted out of office.

You are Athos certainly are consistently opposed to the idea of exalting Christ as the source of salvation for man. If I was you, I would be worried about that.
No, you miss the bigger message of what Christ really means to all of mankind. How interesting that you limit His work as Savior!

No, you miss the bigger message of what Christ really means to all of mankind. How interesting that you limit His work as Savior!OK. What is that message that is "bigger" than Christ as Savior, an aspect you so steadfastly resist? Even beyond that, what does "Savior" mean to you? And as much as you seem to dislike the use of the Bible to support Christian views, perhaps you could do that on this occasion?

OK. What is that message that is "bigger" than Christ as Savior, an aspect you so steadfastly resist?
You've already misread my post and gone off down a side road that will take you to a dead end.

Why am I not surprised? Some things are utterly predictable.

Why am I not surprised? Some things are utterly predictable.
Please respond to my post after reading what I ACTUALLY wrote. E.g., I did not write about a message bigger than Christ. I have not resisted Christ as Savior.

Please respond to my post after reading what I ACTUALLY wrote. E.g., I did not write about a message bigger than Christ. I have not resisted Christ as Savior.Respond to your post? OK. What do you mean when you refer to, "bigger message of what Christ really means to all of mankind?" What is that "bigger message"? And when you consider that I never described His work as Savior, then how would you be able to know I "limited" that role?

Perhaps you could be nice enough to refer to scripture to support your response. I listed ten passages which you dismissed as nothing more than "gotcha" scriptures, which I find to be astonishing. So tell us your meaning with support.

What do you mean when you refer to, "bigger message of what Christ really means to all of mankind?" What is that "bigger message"?
"...THE bigger message of what Christ really means to all of mankind."

Unconditional love.

Well, one thing is for sure. No one can accuse you of using "proof texts", or any other texts for that matter. As to your "unconditional love", read John 3:16 to find out what that is.

Well, one thing is for sure. No one can accuse you of using "proof texts", or any other texts for that matter. As to your "unconditional love", read John 3:16 to find out what that is.
Yep, God's unconditional love for us gave us Jesus. If there wouldn't have been unconditional love, there wouldn't have been a Savior.

Didn’t read John 3:16, did ya? Especially that part about, “whosoever believes in Him.”

Didn’t read John 3:16, did ya? Especially that part about, “whosoever believes in Him.”
Cherry picker! Read the entire Bible to find out how God's unconditional love works.

Cherry picker! Read the entire Bible to find out how God's unconditional love works.I feel sorry for you. You have chosen to believe your own thoughts rather than the repeated teachings of the Bible, and your only weak plea is to appeal to "the entire Bible", though you can't think of a single passage to support your belief. It's really very sad to watch, a woman who refuses to believe.

I feel sorry for you. You have chosen to believe your own thoughts rather than the repeated teachings of the Bible, and your only weak plea is to appeal to "the entire Bible", though you can't think of a single passage to support your belief. It's really very sad to watch, a woman who refuses to believe.
I REFUSE to throw out proof passages! Your continuous scolding and slamming of me says you have no idea what unconditional love is.

You don't "throw out" proof passages because you don't have any. Well, you have been presented with the truth. The rest is up to you.

You don't "throw out" proof passages because you don't have any. Well, you have been presented with the truth. The rest is up to you.
I've spent my life accumulating and memorizing proof passages. They aren't worth the paper they're printed on if I just regurgitate them.

Why am I not surprised? Some things are utterly predictable.it is you who are utterly predictable

it is you who are utterly predictableI certainly hope so. That would make me consistent.

consistently annoying perhaps

You get annoyed because I don't buy all the wild tales you try to spread here. So who's problem is that?

wild tales? anything I say is based on fact, you may not like it but thems the breaks. You need to get some perspective the world is not what you would like it to be

anything I say is based on factHardly, but we'll start tracking that anew. I imagine another wild tale such as you actually thinking you knew more about economics than Trump because you ran a few smallish companies comes to mind immediately. But we'll just track from here on out. It won't take long.

Hardly, but we'll start tracking that anew. I imagine another wild tale such as you actually thinking you knew more about economics than Trump because you ran a few smallish companies comes to mind immediately. But we'll just track from here on out. It won't take long.

In my studies I did several subjects in economics so I am well versed in the concepts of both micro and macro economics and my post graduate studies took me into business systems and government. My qualifications are the equivalent of a MBA so I am well qualified to comment on Trump's performance and theories. What you don't know about me is a great deal and the companies I was involved it over my career were not just small companies

I don't discredit any of that. You know more than Trump? I very seriously doubt that.

Trump has a degree in economics I, as I said have the equivalent of an MBA so we both know similar things and we are both "skilled" in business administration. He had the advantage of millions available to him to set him up, I on the other hand started with absolutely nothing. Some of his economic policies were not soundly based such as using tariffs as sanctions

An MBA is a masters degree, Trump's degree is a batchelor's degree, I also hold two fellowships related to business administration. I do this to pass the time

Trump has a degree in economics I, as I said have the equivalent of an MBA so we both know similar things and we are both "skilled" in business administration. He had the advantage of millions available to him to set him up, I on the other hand started with absolutely nothing. Some of his economic policies were not soundly based such as using tariffs as sanctions

An MBA is a masters degree, Trump's degree is a batchelor's degree, I also hold two fellowships related to business administration. I do this to pass the time


Jumping in here and seeing your post on Trump, your putting in quotes his "skill" probably reflects the truth. His starting advantage of about 400 million, being repeatedly bailed out by his father, and inheriting the father's business does not speak well for his business acumen. It's hard to credit his economic degree since he doesn't understand the basic principles of a tariff - something a fifth grader could be taught. His "deal" making has been a disaster - rejected by N Korea and threatening the allies are hardly the marks of a skilled dealmaker. Inheriting a recovering economy begun by Obama is no credit to Trump.

The man is a disaster in so many ways, and several of those ways will shortly be exposed for all the world to see. Your qualifications are far greater than anything Trump ever achieved on his own.

(Behind me, I 'm hearing the amazing news from Georgia - the Democrats now ahead in one race and tied in the other).

What's so amazing, people like to be on the winning side, not the whingeing side, this is a race being run after the event, the dynamics will be different

What's amazing is the turnout that will put the dems in control of the senate and regulate the "grim reaper" to a minority leader without the power to control the legislative agenda as he has done for so many years. Biden gets his cabinet and judges, and agenda if the dems can consolidate.

The swamp has been cleared of the biggest critter, and the toilet of incompetence has a good chance to be flushed.

PS. I personally think you are more capable than the dufus to run a business openly and HONESTLY, Clete, but getting elected to run government maybe not.

I have no aspiration to lead government, Tal, never was a public speaker, but I have been an innovator and early adopter of technology. As an analyst I can see things that others might miss. No it seems Trump didn't make the difference that was needed in Georgia which must be suffering from electoral fatigue by now

An MBA is a masters degree, Trump's degree is a batchelor's degree, I also hold two fellowships related to business administration. I do this to pass the timeYou kind of failed to mention that he has led businesses a couple of hundred times larger than anything you have led. Now I don't discount your skills, abilities, or accomplishments. But for you to say you knew more about economics than him was really out there.

No academics would disagree

Sure they wouldn’t. I do think they would agree that having the "equivalent of an MBA" is not the same thing as actually having earned an MBA.

You kind of failed to mention that he has led businesses a couple of hundred times larger than anything you have led.
And he --tRump -- did a terrific job of destroying them.

I'd go to 'Clete with my econ questions before I'd ask tRump.

Sure they wouldn’t. I do think they would agree that having the "equivalent of an MBA" is not the same thing as actually having earned an MBA.

I have spent many of my years in study, Jl, far more than Trump, who "earned" an undergraduate degree, the only thing that didn't happen was the confiring of the degree because I took a different path also no organisation that I led or administered in ever filed for bankruptcy, they were all successful, can you say the same for Trump?

Wonder how many of those dufus companies are shell companies for hiding shady deals and money laundering? Not so far fetched since he cheated the government and got booted from rent subsidies, his charities disbanded and he was banned from any future charity activity, and his University endeavors had to pay back the students he cheated.

I doubt Clete has come close to achieving such dishonesty, and no doubt who I would trust with a few bucks.

Did you ever develop over a billion dollars in real estate holdings? How about a tenth of that? A twentieth?

Have you ever seen a poor mobster or dictator? Both are in the realm of possibility just given what we know as stated above.

Yes Trump exhibits all the characteristics of a mobster or dictator. he came in a burst of glory and flamed out in ignomony

He still has his cult followers and they gave a helluva show which the dufus no doubt enjoyed. You think he's done yet? No way.

But his voice has been cut off, he can't twitter any more

Yes he can!

Trump gets Twitter account back with threat he could be permanently banned (yahoo.com) (https://news.yahoo.com/trump-gets-twitter-account-back-121414861.html)

Mr fake news is back

The lies continue, Trump concedes defeat to Biden, says 'outraged by violence, lawlessness in US Capitol' (republicworld.com) (https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/us-news/us-capitol-seige-trump-condemns-attack-and-deploys-national-guard-concedes-defeat.html)

The lies continue, Trump concedes defeat to Biden, says 'outraged by violence, lawlessness in US Capitol' (republicworld.com) (https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/us-news/us-capitol-seige-trump-condemns-attack-and-deploys-national-guard-concedes-defeat.html)

Trump is himself again declaring he will not attend the inauguration - fodder for his moronic followers who will read that as further denial of the election. Without a prompter for his speeches, the real Trump emerges.

Censure, impeachment, or 25th Amendment - any one of them works for me.

All the above plus a perp walk would make my day/week/month/year/decade/millennium. Or looney fringe wingers heads exploding while stuck shoulder deep up dufus A$$!

On live prime time TV!

8O!

Trump is himself again declaring he will not attend the inauguration - fodder for his moronic followers who will read that as further denial of the election. Without a prompter for his speeches, the real Trump emerges.

Censure, impeachment, or 25th Amendment - any one of them works for me.

It's over Tal, be happy with that

It ain't over 'til it's over.

yes Trump dragged kicking and screaming from the WH, I think he will just hop on his jet and fly south for the winter

Extradite his a$$ to where he did his dirt.

Florida is a great place for him almost as far from the seat of power as you can get and right in the path of the next hurricane

Not far enough for his words actions or behavior bordering on dangerously criminal if not downright insane and lunatic.

Nothing new to see here, he was elected as a lunatic, served as a lunatic and exited as a lunatic. Four years of lunatic behaviour didn't get him impeached, but now they have the majority they will do it anyway. You would think after four years they have something better to do

They won't get it through the Senate. They won't get the 67 votes needed. It's just a final eruption towards Trump of extreme liberal dem hatred. You know, the people who say they believe in tolerance and acceptance.

To be a lunatic, he was amazingly successful in many ways.

Lets have the vote and find out. Or do you defend the events of Jan 6th? Maybe I missed your rebuke of such mob actions on our capital as you defend the dufus yet again.

They won't get it through the Senate. They won't get the 67 votes needed. It's just a final eruption towards Trump of extreme liberal dem hatred. You know, the people who say they believe in tolerance and acceptance.

To be a lunatic, he was amazingly successful in many ways.

Yes lunatics sometimes are, rational people don't want to say no to them

Yes lunatics sometimes are, rational people don't want to say no to themOr, much more likely, he is not a lunatic.

The events of Jan 6th is not the evidence of lunatics at work?

Yes Jan 6th will hence forth be known as the day of the lunatic

What will June 22nd be known as?

Troglodyte day, it is the day Galileo recanted

Clever answer, but I was referring to 2020.

slow news day

What will June 22nd be known as?

Wasn't the question. This was...!


The events of Jan 6th is not the evidence of lunatics at work?

slow news dayTherein lies the problem. When it's a BLM group trying to violently get into the White House, and then deciding to burn down a two centuries old church, then it's just a "slow news day". But when it's a conservative group, then it's an insurrection, a reason to impeach a pres, and a reason for a new draconian fed law restricting free speech. Wonder why the double standard? Hmm.

No double standard, google June 22 2020, see what you get

Therein lies the problem. When it's a BLM group trying to violently get into the White House, and then deciding to burn down a two centuries old church, then it's just a "slow news day". But when it's a conservative group, then it's an insurrection, a reason to impeach a pres, and a reason for a new draconian fed law restricting free speech. Wonder why the double standard? Hmm.

There is no double standard just you confusing life and BS! BLM never stormed the capital, nor burned down a church but the dufus did whip up a fringer group to storm the capital and watched while they did.

Free speech is not hollering fire in a crowded theater.

No double standard, google June 22 2020, see what you getWell crud. I had the date wrong. Try May 31st.

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/paula-bolyard/2020/06/01/breaking-rioters-burn-historic-st-johns-church-in-d-c-deface-monuments-across-the-city-n474820

Might also want to shoot for July 21st.

https://metrovoicenews.com/rioters-attempt-to-burn-down-portland-federal-court-house/

Nice try linking BLM to Antifa. Never works though. You can denounce the Jan. 6th mob now.