Right....thats what you want us to think....but the fact is thats not true....many of them will get it free or subsidized....that means someone else is getting shafted picking up the bill....thats those of us who actually work for a living AND pay taxes...unlike them.
Then let's start a major campaign to teach young girls to value themselves enough to not get pregnant by any cute and horny teen guy who comes along.

Then let's start a major campaign to teach young girls to value themselves enough to not get pregnant by any cute and horny teen guy who comes along.

That only works if the targeted audience is intelligent enough to listen... most of them aren't. Because its been tried... they think they know everything already.

Romney tried that rhetoric and he lost.

That only works if the targeted audience is intelligent enough to listen.....most of them aren't. Because its been tried....they think they know everything already.
Then we will keep after them and not give up. I'm think this could be a wonderful bipartisan effort with pizza parties and songs and hand clapping.

And we could change Hollywood and the media along with it!

Tal you are in a seriously SMALL minorrity that likes or even wants Obamacare... not even a majority of Democrats want it know they know the truth about it.

Then we will keep after them and not give up. I'm think this could be a wonderful bipartisan effort with pizza parties and songs and hand clapping.

Only if you first can find a cure for the ignorance and arrogance of youth. Because that has to be surmounted before anything changes.

For the millionth time, only an idiot would be mad at someone else getting what most of us have and paying for it themselves.

The alternative is we go back to paying for them to get what they should have had themselves. Can't believe you are for that.

I cannot tell you how many times I have read, heard and watched some lib wagging their finger at us telling us to keep the government out of our bedrooms. Well my liberal friends, I expect some outrage over this...


Obamacare will question your sex life (http://nypost.com/2013/09/15/obamacare-will-question-your-sex-life/)

‘Are you sexually active? If so, with one partner, multiple partners or same-sex partners?”

Be ready to answer those questions and more the next time you go to the doctor, whether it’s the dermatologist or the cardiologist and no matter if the questions are unrelated to why you’re seeking medical help. And you can thank the Obama health law.

“This is nasty business,” says New York cardiologist Dr. Adam Budzikowski. He called the sex questions “insensitive, stupid and very intrusive.” He couldn’t think of an occasion when a cardiologist would need such information — but he knows he’ll be pushed to ask for it.

It's none of their damn business. Right?


The president’s “reforms” aim to turn doctors into government agents, pressuring them financially to ask questions they consider inappropriate and unnecessary, and to violate their Hippocratic Oath to keep patients’ records confidential.

Embarrassing though it may be, you confide things to a doctor you wouldn’t tell anyone else. But this is entirely different.

Doctors and hospitals who don’t comply with the federal government’s electronic-health-records requirements forgo incentive payments now; starting in 2015, they’ll face financial penalties from Medicare and Medicaid. The Department of Health and Human Services has already paid out over $12.7 billion for these incentives.

Dr. Richard Amerling, a nephrologist and associate professor at Albert Einstein Medical College, explains that your medical record should be “a story created by you and your doctor solely for your treatment and benefit.” But the new requirements are turning it “into an interrogation, and the data will not be confidential.”

Lack of confidentiality is what concerned the New York Civil Liberties Union in a 2012 report. Electronic medical records have enormous benefits, but with one click of a mouse, every piece of information in a patient’s record, including the social history, is transmitted, disclosing too much.

Add the massive expansion of government snooping and I'd say your guy has virtually shredded your right to privacy and mine.

That's not all, this is for you ex...


The social-history questions also include whether you’ve ever used drugs, including IV drugs. As the NYCLU cautioned, revealing a patient’s past drug problem, even if it was a decade ago, risks stigma.

Why does the government need to know this stuff? Come on, convince me some more how Zerocare isn't a clusterfark.

Tal you are in a seriously SMALL minorrity that likes or even wants Obamacare....not even a majority of Democrats want it know they know the truth about it.

Forgive me for doubting the veracity of YOUR truth. The last repeal vote didn't reflect that, quite the opposite.

Only if you first can find a cure for the ignorance and arrogance of youth. Because that has to be surmounted before anything changes.
We youths back in the '50s and '60s were ignorant and arrogant (in our own way) but 99% of us didn't get pregnant. What changed since then? (Miley Cyrus isn't helping.)

For the millionth time, only an idiot would be mad at someone else getting what most of us have and paying for it themselves.

The alternative is we go back to paying for them to get what they should have had themselves. Can't believe you are for that.

THey aren't paying for it themselves... many of them will be getting SUBSIDIES... many will get it FREE... you understand basic economics... nothing is free... someone else has to foot the bill for it. Those of us with jobs that actually pay taxes are who will pay for it in higher taxes.

THey aren't paying for it themselves.....many of them will be getting SUBSIDIES...many will get it FREE......you understand basic economics...nothing is free...someone else has to foot the bill for it. Those of us with jobs that actually pay taxes are who will pay for it in higher taxes.

You already are and have been for decades. DUHHHHHHHHH!!

You already are and have been for decades.

I haven't been paying for Obamacare for decades... but I agree I am now... therefore its not free... its nothing short of being mugged.

And I want my money back... they make the sacrifices to pay for their own.. WITHOUT subsidies... or they can do without.

I managed to do it when I was younger and its was a big chunk of my paycheck... before I spend a dime on anything else... they can do the same. It didn't kill me and it won't kill them.

I haven't been paying for Obamacare for decades
You've been paying for Medicare and Medicaid and SS for decades (and didn't benefit -- yet). Oh, and my husband says thanks for your contribution toward Medicare's paying for his stent surgery.

I haven't been paying for Obamacare for decades... but I agree I am now... therefore its not free... its nothing short of being mugged.

And I want my money back... they make the sacrifices to pay for their own.. WITHOUT subsidies... or they can do without.


You have been paying for emergency room visits by the uninsured for DECADES, not just with your taxes and federal subsidies to hospitals, but also with the cost those hospitals pass to YOU.


I managed to do it when I was younger and its was a big chunk of my paycheck... before I spend a dime on anything else... they can do the same. It didn't kill me and it won't kill them

That's the dreaded mandate my friend, the one you disagree with. Is a tax break a subsidy, no it's a deduction from taxes paid.

We youths back in the '50s and '60s were ignorant and arrogant (in our own way) but 99% of us didn't get pregnant. What changed since then?


The Pill.

Hello again, Steve:

Come on, the examples in this thread alone are proof Nahhhh... All it is, is right wingers flapping their gums and citing right wing sources. What else is new?

Excon

So, none of you care that the feds are invading your bedroom thanks to Obamacare? Really?

Ask Me Help Desk - View Single Post - Obamacare 3.0 (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/3551961-post758.html)

Hello again, Steve:
Nahhhh... All it is, is right wingers flapping their gums and citing right wing sources. What else is new?

excon

Since when are the unions right wingers?

You have been paying for emergency room visits by the uninsured for DECADES, not just with your taxes and federal subsidies to hospitals, but also with the cost those hospitals pass to YOU.



That's the dreaded mandate my friend, the one you disagree with. Is a tax break a subsidy, no its a deduction from taxes paid.

That has nothing to do with it... because are they doing away with that in exchange for this monstrosity... Nope... not they aren't.

You've been paying for Medicare and Medicaid and SS for decades (and didn't benefit -- yet). Oh, and my husband says thanks for your contribution toward Medicare's paying for his stent surgery.

Medicare and SSI have nothing at all to do with Obamacare.

I'm asking again, none of you libs that whine so often about keeping the government out of our bedrooms care that Obamacare is doing just that?

Ask Me Help Desk - View Single Post - Obamacare 3.0 (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/3551961-post758.html)

Your conservative author has been wrong before and is again so I challenge you to find the part of the ACA that backs up what she says.

Your conservative author has been wrong before and is again so I challenge you to find the part of the ACA that backs up what she says.
Yup, the confidentiality thing won't change with ACA.

First of all the confidentiality thing is HIPAA which prevents providers from sharing information with people, such as friends and family, that you haven't authorized to receive such information. It has nothing to do with what Obamacare requires to be provided to the government.

Secondly, I defy you to show me me how the physicians quoted are conservative authors.


“This is nasty business,” says New York cardiologist Dr. Adam Budzikowski. He called the sex questions “insensitive, stupid and very intrusive.” He couldn’t think of an occasion when a cardiologist would need such information — but he knows he’ll be pushed to ask for it.

Is he lying? I don't think so, but you remain naïve to all the nonsense being forced on us and the erosion of our rights. You're once again proving you put policy ahead of people and all your past protests about keeping government out of the bedroom, other invasions of privacy and protecting rights were nothing more than hot air. I'm not surprised at all.

Utter complete BS. Show me where its in the ACA! You refuse to do your own homework before you rattle off some crap the right has been doing for decades. Start with checking out the author of your piece and see her history and advocacy track record. Then check the doctors she trots out. Have you read the other crap she has written?

Or were you to young to remember the Clinton years?

PS, the only time a physician will asks if you own a gun because of the side effects of any medications he wants to prescribe for certain conditions.

Hello again, Steve:

If there's anyone we can trust for her expertise on health care policy, it's Betsy McCaughey, the genius who decided that if Medicare pays for seniors to meet with a doctor to discuss living wills, that's a DEATH PANEL. That's a hell of a lie, and really, there's no way she could hope to top it. But there's still plenty of stuff to lie about, so how about this? In Sunday's New York Post, McCaughey warns (http://wonkette.com/528781/death-panel-inventor-betsy-mccaughey-warns-obamacare-will-force-doctors-to-ask-you-about-buttsex) that as soon as Obamacare goes into effect, The Government will require every doctor you visit to ask intrusive questions about whom and how you are sexing:

Bwa, ha ha ha.

Excon

And you guys still think if we like our plan we can keep it.

Hello again, Steve:
And you guys still think if we like our plan we can keep it.For the most part, yes. Let me ask you this. You're a worker. You're covered by your employer. Are YOU losing YOURS? Why not?

On another matter. Are you satisfied with your health care coverage? Have you USED it? IF you've used it, are you STILL satisfied?

Let me explain.. I have pretty good insurance. Since I think I'm a good buyer, OF COURSE, I'm satisfied with my purchase. But, I have NO idea what I'm covered for. I doubt any of you do either... Certainly the last 50 pages of my policy tells me what they DON'T cover, and I'm afraid if I get sick, I'll get one of those diseases.

That won't satisfy me at all.

Excon

Hello again, Steve:For the most part, yes. Lemme ask you this. You're a worker. You're covered by your employer. Are YOU losing YOURS? Why not?

It's a simple matter of the facts. Unless your current plan meets all of the Obamacare criteria it will not be grandfathered in, period. And if you can't understand that Obamacare's union cheerleaders aren't happy, and that 90 percent of federal workers, including those enforcing it, don't want any part of it you'll never get it.

Hello again, Steve:
if you can't understand that Obamacare's union cheerleaders aren't happy, and that 90 percent of federal workers, including those enforcing it, don't want any part of it you'll never get it.Nahhh.. You're NOT paying attention.

They DO want PARTS of it. The LOVE the part that says kids get to stay on their parents policy until they're 26. That'll NEVER change... They LOVE the part where your insurance company CANNOT deny you because of a pre-existing condition.. We'll NEVER go back to the way it was.

I agree, though, about the part they DON'T like, and that's how to PAY for it... So, the REALITY is, it's HERE to stay. But, instead of trying to FIX it, you'd rather DESTROY your party over it. Makes NO sense to me...

Excon

Dude, you sound just like Obama's other useful idiots (http://spectator.org/archives/2013/09/16/obamacares-useful-idiots). The difference is they've finally noticed they got screwed.

The part you don't acknowledge is negotiations are still in progress and the tweaking continues. No you don't get to use resolution of the glitches as an excuse to repeal it and go back to consumers being gouged.

13 days left.

The part you don't acknowledge is negotiations are still in progress and the tweaking continues. No you don't get to use resolution of the glitches as an excuse to repeal it and go back to consumers being gouged.

13 days left.

SMH... you guys worry me.

The part you don't acknowledge is negotiations are still in progress and the tweaking continues. No you don't get to use resolution of the glitches as an excuse to repeal it and go back to consumers being gouged.

13 days left.

Oh I have no doubt that there is behind the scenes negotiations and promises by the emperor to his union base asking them to ride it out and the "fixes" will come later. Specifically they will agree to extend taxpayer subsidies (the ones designed to help families without employer sponsored insurance )to the union “Taft-Hartley” plans.
This idea was floated by James Hoffa in his scathing letter to Speaker Bonehead and Madam Mimi .

Not even Warren Buffet is still backing this.

Warren Buffett: Scrap Obamacare and Start Over | The Weekly Standard (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/warren-buffett-scrap-obamacare-and-start-over_756302.html)

He wants it scrapped just like most Americans.

Not a surprise you would listen to a rich banker telling you what's good for people who suffer under not being able to afford health care at all, and a right wing news source.

Doctors Readying For Obamacare's New Health Insurance Benefits (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/01/doctors-obamacare_n_3681965.html)

I guess doctors working quietly to help their patients instead of scare them with hollering doesn't make the news as much. Keep squealing and in 13 days when the creek don't rise and the sky don't fall, you will be ignored as a noisemaker after a party is over, and reality takes hold.

But then reality never shuts you guys up as you still try to kill SS, and Medicare after all these years.

Don't leave out all the doctors who are closing up their practices or changing over to botique care exclusively outside of Obamacare where you pay cash... you don't want to appear to be ignoring the reality do you?

Not a surprise you would listen to a rich banker telling you what's good for people who suffer under not being able to afford health care at all, and a right wing news source.

Doctors Readying For Obamacare's New Health Insurance Benefits (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/01/doctors-obamacare_n_3681965.html)

I guess doctors working quietly to help their patients instead of scare them with hollering doesn't make the news as much. Keep squealing and in 13 days when the creek don't rise and the sky don't fall, you will be ignored as a noisemaker after a party is over, and reality takes hold.

But then reality never shuts you guys up as you still try to kill SS, and Medicare after all these years.

Dude, I can say this much for you, you are a faithful soldier in Obama's army. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but you are dedicated to the cause no matter how big a clusterfark it is.

I like this comment from an article --

Q: After personally working on the legislation, what are your final thoughts about Obamacare? Do you think we’re heading in the right direction with this legislation?

A: The Affordable Care Act is an incredibly complex and imperfect law, but this is landmark legislation for American health-care history, kind of the starting place for a lot of important changes. The country was already facing problems of rising health-care costs and this has sort of sparked the changes that needed to happen. More people are going to be able to afford coverage, which is really a moral step in the right direction for everyone. It will be a bumpy road but in about 10 years expect to see a much better health-care system.

What to expect when Obamacare hits full swing in 2014 (http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=214925)

Right out of the WHite Houses Propaganda Ministry.

Right out of the WHite Houses Propaganda Ministry.
Hope I live to see its success.

Hope I live to see its success.

I hope it is history before this year is out... and I certainly will work to get rid of it as long as it takes.

Hello again, smoothy:

I hope it is history before this year is out... and I certainly will work to get rid of it as long as it takes.Then you believe shutting down the government will get it defunded, true? And, you believe that defunding it will get rid of it forever, true? And, you believe that sometime during the last 3.5 years of the Obama administration, that Obama will sign a repeal of his signature legislation, true?

What part of it BEING the CONSTITUTIONAL LAW of the land, do you NOT understand?

Excon

Hello again, smoothy:
Then you believe shutting down the government will get it defunded, true? And, you believe that defunding it get rid of it forever, true? And, you believe that sometime during the last 3.5 years of the Obama administration, that Obama will sign a repeal of his signature legislation, true?

What part of it BEING the CONSTITUTIONAL LAW of the land, do you NOT understand?

excon

What part of OBAMA IS NOT A GOD do you not understand... ANY law ever written can be repealed... especially one this screwed up and bad.. Even one handed down from ontop the mountain by Obama the Messiah.

Hello again, smoothy:
Then you believe shutting down the government will get it defunded, true? And, you believe that defunding it will get rid of it forever, true? And, you believe that sometime during the last 3.5 years of the Obama administration, that Obama will sign a repeal of his signature legislation, true?

What part of it BEING the CONSTITUTIONAL LAW of the land, do you NOT understand?

excon

What part of a majority of Americans didn't want it then and don't want it now don't you understand?

What part of a majority of Americans didn't want it then and don't want it now don't you understand?
Where are you finding this "majority"? That's not what I'm reading about and hearing.

Where are you finding this "majority"? That's not what I'm reading about and hearing.

Health Care Law - Rasmussen Reports™ (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/health_care_law)


This looks like most polls I've seen and heard of.

Hello dad:

What you won is the PR war. They COULD have been better at introducing it..

Nonetheless, like Nancy Peloci said, you have get it before you understand it.

The problem you wingers have, is that your conversation hasn't changed one iota since the bill was being debated. You threw around stuff like Death Panels which was patently untrue, and now you expect us to believe you...

I'm sorry. I don't. It's a GOOD law. It needs tweaking. It ain't going anywhere.

excon

Hello dad:

What you won is the PR war. They COULD have been better at introducing it..

Nonetheless, like Nancy Peloci said, you have get it before you understand it.

The problem you wingers have, is that your conversation hasn't changed one iota since the bill was being debated. You threw around stuff like Death Panels which was patently untrue, and now you expect us to believe you...

I'm sorry. I don't. It's a GOOD law. It needs tweaking. It ain't going anywhere.

excon

Lets face it. Tweaking is something that you do when you need minor corrective changes. This is a disaster. It need much more then tweaking. It needed an overhaul as soon as it was passed. They could have done it correctly and brought it in in stages. But they didn't want to do that. It makes too much sense. Now as America is trying to recover from Obamanomics we will be stuck with this that will further burdern the taxpayers of this country and slow it down even more. What you thought it was free??

Health Care Law - Rasmussen Reports™ (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/health_care_law)


This looks like most polls I've seen and heard of.

By all means, show us the data that shows otherwise.

By all means, show us the data that shows otherwise.

Huh ?

Huh ?

LOL, I meant that for Wondergirl...


Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
Where are you finding this "majority"? That's not what I'm reading about and hearing.

I'd like to see what she's reading.

I bet the people defending this so vigorously have never sat down and actually read it...

Even Nancy Pelosi said we need to vote for this so we can find out what's in it... she didn't even have a clue at the time... and its clear she still doesn't.

I bet the people defending this so vigorously have never sat down and actually read it......

Even Nancy Pelosi said we need to vote for this so we can find out whats in it......she didn't even have a clue at the time....and its clear she still doesn't.

Now that's a great point, did you read it?

Now that's a great point, did you read it?

Its over 5 foot thick... NO legislation NEEDS to be that thick unless its trying to hide a lot of stuff nobody wants to see the light of day..

Read it online that's where the links I gave are. As long as its been online you could have actually studied the thing and not just holler about what you think it says or means.

Being afraid of 5 feet of paper is no excuse for laziness.

Read it online that's where the links I gave are. As long as its been online you could have actually studied the thing and not just holler about what you think it says or means.

Being afraid of 5 feet of paper is no excuse for laziness.

By all means interpret those 5 feet of regulations for us.

Read it online that's where the links I gave are. As long as its been online you could have actually studied the thing and not just holler about what you think it says or means.

Being afraid of 5 feet of paper is no excuse for laziness.

Wasting my time reading 5 feet of crap is...


If it looks like a turd... and smells like a turd... then you know it's a turd without having to taste it too.

Now I know why you have no clue what you are hollering about.

Now I know why you have no clue what you are hollering about.

I know far more about this than you guys do... you've quoting White House propaganda that's been proven time and time again to be nothing but lies.

And you don't even have the majority of your own party behind it... not to mention everyone else. Who are even LESS behind it.

It's come to this... an ad for Obamacare in Oregon.

SLpKDNVU9dA


“We fly with our own wings. Care about the same things. We stand strong together. So let me hear you say. We fly with our own wings. Dreamin’ all the big dreams. Long live Oregonians; we’re free to be healthy. Long live Oregonians; we’re free to be healthy.”

A mere $2 million in taxpayer money to take Oregonians on a magical mystery tour. Not sure what the point is here, but then libs aren't keen on making sense.

Hello again, Steve:

The point is, you've been winning the argument, so it's time to weigh in.. Ok, it was time a couple years ago, but better late than never.

excon

Hello again, Steve:

The point is, you've been winning the argument, so it's time to weigh in.. Ok, it was time a couple years ago, but better late than never.

excon

"We fly with our own wings. Dreamin’ all the big dreams."

Bwa ha ha!

I would point out a bunch of interesting developments and reports about rising costs and such but you guys wouldn't care, so never mind.

Hello again, Steve:

I would point out a bunch of interesting developments and reports about rising costs and such but you guys wouldn't care, so never mind.That's what happens when you scream about the sky falling (death panels). Nobody BELIEVES you when the sky actually falls.

Excon

Hello again, Steve:
That's what happens when you scream about the sky falling (death panels). Nobody BELIEVES you when the sky actually falls.

excon

Says the guy who keeps screaming about global warming that isn't happening. As I said yesterday, a majority of Americans still don't want Obamacare. They're smart enough to see the clusterfark they didn't want in the first place unfolding. It's you true believers who are the chicken littles that got us here in the first place.

Says the guy who keeps screaming about global warming that isn't happening. As I said yesterday, a majority of Americans still don't want Obamacare. They're smart enough to see the clusterfark they didn't want in the first place unfolding. It's you true believers who are the chicken littles that got us here in the first place.
Aon Hewett and Walmart seem to be working things out.

Walgreen moves to new health insurance model - chicagotribune.com (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/chi-walgreen-health-plan-20130917,0,2790575.story)

Aon Hewett and Walmart seem to be working things out.

Walgreen moves to new health insurance model - chicagotribune.com (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/chi-walgreen-health-plan-20130917,0,2790575.story)

That's Walgreen's not Walmart and they're doing exactly as the confused on the left want, push people toward single payer. Meanwhile, it lets evil corporations like Walgreen's off the hook for compliance costs and forces the employee to deal with the exchanges.

7ZqAZzWrI8g#t=40

“I can’t see how this is going to be good for the employee in the future,” said CBS This Morning’s Jill Schlesinger

That's Walgreen's not Walmart
In today's paper, Walmart was mentioned as jumping on the bandwagon too.

forces the employee to deal with the exchanges.

Like going from company pensions (that disappear) to 401(k)s. And the employee has control.

Like going from company pensions (that disappear) to 401(k)s. And the employee has control.

You must think it's going to be a breeze, that's why they hired all those navigators, eh?

I've spent most of the last 30 years dealing with the governmen... one thing I've learned is never underestimate their capacity to screw something up...

Because a chain is only as strong as its weakest link... and thanks to affirmative action and preffered hiring practices... most government employees are weak links.

I would point out a bunch of interesting developments and reports about rising costs and such but you guys wouldn't care, so never mind.

I have been talking about rising costs that go back decades, now all of a sudden you are worried about the ones that are happening now?


Like going from company pensions (that disappear) to 401(k)s. And the employee has control.

401K's that are subject to market forces. Only good to the next crash.

I have been talking about rising costs that go back decades, now all of a sudden you are worried about the ones that are happening now?

You libs, always assuming that things unsaid are a valid argument.

What in the world makes you think I wouldn't be concerned about rising costs? Only liberals want prices to "necessarily skyrocket".

401K's that are subject to market forces. Only good to the next crash.
And be able to roll your 401(k) into some other investment. OR be like my sis and her husband who worked for Kodak for 30+ years and looked forward to a nice pension. Guess where that went...

That's business that's skyrocketing the prices. Not liberals.

I have been talking about rising costs that go back decades, now all of a sudden you are worried about the ones that are happening now?



401K's that are subject to market forces. Only good to the next crash.

401 K was the best thing that happened to my retirement portfolio. I'm doing much better than when the company had my pension in a trust fund.

That's business that's skyrocketing the prices. Not liberals.

Yeah, you still think it's greed and think it has nothing to do with the burdensome taxes and regulations you force on them, who then pass the cost to the consumer. It's not rocket science tal, whatever cost of compliance you force on business always gets passed on to the consumer. Duh.

We all see how well the Government has handled the Social Security trust fund they have claimed was there for decades...

burdensome taxes and regulations
Huh? Which ones? Nothing new that I've heard of. Same as when Republicans were in charge.

Yeah, you still think it's greed and think it has nothing to do with the burdensome taxes and regulations you force on them, who then pass the cost to the consumer. It's not rocket science tal, whatever cost of compliance you force on business always gets passed on to the consumer. Duh.

That was a business practice before Obama, DUH. Consumers always bear the brunt of the costs and none of the profits. Funny. You act like you aren't a consumer like the rest of us.

I guess its better that 90 million fewer people actually have jobs thanks to Obamas practices. Than had jobs when Bush was in office.

I guess the goal of the left is to increace that to 355 million.

That was a business practice before Obama, DUH. Consumers always bear the brunt of the costs and none of the profits. Funny. You act like you aren't a consumer like the rest of us.

I swear, it's like walking into an Orwell novel every day...

Everybody who dislikes ObamaCare is being duped by GOP propaganda, says President Obama. That must include all those unions calling it a disaster, and all those who've lost jobs and pay because of the law.

Telemundo, the only news outlet that appears willing to ask Obama a tough question, pressed him this week about polls showing most Americans oppose ObamaCare. "Is everybody wrong?" the host asked.

"Yes, they are," Obama responded. The problem, he said, isn't his law. It's those evil Republicans who've spent "billions of dollars ... misinforming people."

Let's leave aside the fact that the Obama administration has spent a king's ransom promoting ObamaCare, and that Democrats and the liberal press have devoted three years to extolling its alleged virtues, and the fact that the public never supported this law to begin with.

Truth is, ObamaCare is a rolling disaster that is creating new enemies every day as its harmful effects ripple through the economy.

This week, the prestigious Cleveland Clinic announced plans to lay off as many as 3,000 workers "to prepare for health care reform." And hundreds of franchise owners came to Washington to explain how ObamaCare's employer mandate will force many of them to cut worker hours to avoid its massive costs.

Last week, Connecticut's Lawrence and Memorial Hospital cut dozens of jobs, citing "massive structural change" brought on by ObamaCare. More than a dozen other hospitals have recently announced job cuts.

That same week, the AFL-CIO voted overwhelmingly for a resolution calling ObamaCare "highly disruptive," despite concerted efforts on the part of the White House to convince labor leaders not to do so.

Other unions have been far less polite.

Then there are the jobs killed by ObamaCare's excise tax on medical devices. Last fall, device maker Stryker Corp. laid off 1,170 workers because of that tax — which both Democrats and the GOP are now trying to repeal.

IBD has been cataloguing businesses, public institutions and local governments that have cut jobs or worker hours specifically citing ObamaCare. That list is now more than 250.

Other companies are cutting benefits for part-time workers, spouses, early retirees or their entire workforce, because of ObamaCare. Every one of those workers has a good reason to want the law killed.

On top of this, the public may be noticing the growing pile of ObamaCare's broken promises. Among them:

• Family premiums haven't gone down by $2,500 annually, as Obama repeatedly said they would. They've gone up $2,976.

• Workers are increasingly finding that they can't keep the health plans they like, despite Obama's pledge that they can.

• ObamaCare is adding to federal budget deficits, as IBD recently reported, even though Obama claimed it would cut red ink.

• The law is hurting small businesses, not helping them.

The public even might have noticed that Obama himself has shown the law to be seriously flawed.

According to the Congressional Research Service, he repealed, changed or delayed pieces of ObamaCare 19 times. That includes the employer mandate, the verification rules, the limit on out-of-pocket costs, and the ability for workers at small companies to have a choice of plans in the exchanges.

None of this has anything to do with Republican propaganda.

Neither is Obama's oft-repeated claim true that Republicans have no alternative to ObamaCare. This week, conservative lawmakers introduced a package of reforms they've long advocated that would cut health costs, make insurance more affordable and protect those with pre-existing conditions.

The public's dislike of ObamaCare is real, and it is well-deserved. Now it's up to Republicans to seize on this and stop the law before it can live down to their expectations.


Sorry, Obama, Americans Are Right to Oppose ObamaCare - Investors.com (http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/091813-671589-obama-tries-to-blame-gop-for-obamacare-failures.htm#ixzz2fL2PlKhs)

And that's what baffles me about the true believers, in spite of all of the reports detailing what a clusterfark is been so far they insist is all propaganda. Ask those 3000 clinic workers that last their jobs, the unions and business owners if it's just propaganda. It's reality to them. Or just ask why the people that wrote the law don't want to be a part of it if it's so great.

The same type of mentality persisted in Jonestown... we know how that ended too.

Hello again, tom:


Telemundo, the only news outlet that appears willing to ask Obama a tough question, pressed him this week about polls showing most Americans oppose ObamaCare. "Is everybody wrong?" the host asked.

"Yes, they are," Obama responded. The problem, he said, isn't his law. It's those evil Republicans who've spent "billions of dollars ... misinforming people."

Let's leave aside the fact that the Obama administration has spent a king's ransom promoting ObamaCare, and that Democrats and the liberal press have devoted three years to extolling its alleged virtues, and the fact that the public never supported this law to begin with.Couple things..

When Obama was re-elected in 2010, it WAS an affirmation of his SIGNATURE law, Obamacare. If people HATED it then, as you and your right wing rag suggests, he would have LOST bigtime.

The next lie is how much Obama spent promoting the law.. That's just the problem.. He didn't spend ENOUGH. He actually thought that argument would be OVER, having won the election, and having had the law proven CONSTITUTIONAL... You know, stuff that an ORDINARY person would believe. He just had NO idea exactly HOW much he was hated... I didn't either..

All in all, this crap might as will have been written by Sarah Palin...

Excon

Hello again, tom:
Couple things..

When Obama was re-elected in 2010, it WAS an affirmation of his SIGNATURE law, Obamacare. If people HATED it then, as you and your right wing rag suggests, he would have LOST bigtime.

The next lie is how much Obama spent promoting the law.. That's just the problem.. He didn't spend ENOUGH. He actually thought that argument would be OVER, having won the election, and having had the law proven CONSTITUTIONAL... You know, stuff that an ORDINARY person would believe. He just had NO idea exactly HOW much he was hated... I didn't either..

All in all, this crap might as will have been written by Sarah Palin...

excon

Right on cue, total denial of the facts. You're in deep, dude, you are a true believer.

Actually its been Republicans spending all the money to muddy the water, and in 11 days they will try their last desperate tactic to stop the prez. Shut down the whole government.

Even republicans are panicking over that idea. Wonder why all of them don't agree with Ted Cruz?

Hello again, tom:
Couple things..

When Obama was re-elected in 2010,

All in all, this crap might as will have been written by Sarah Palin...

excon

Hey ex with your grasp of history your posts might be written by Sarah Palin

Actually its been Republicans spending all the money to muddy the water, and in 11 days they will try their last desperate tactic to stop the prez. Shut down the whole government.

Even republicans are panicking over that idea. Wonder why all of them don't agree with Ted Cruz?

If the gvt shuts down it will be at the hands of the emperor. Some eunich Repubics are indeed panicking.

Then you better run from Ted and his minions, and cut a deal. Oh they will be mad at the government, but most of us see, yet again, who is taking hostages and making unreasonable demands, and threaten the republic.

By most of us, I mean both democrats, republicans, and independents. That leaves his base, the loony right to praise this idiot.

Wish we had more like Cruz in the Senate . Here's the deal... Obamacare is not even close to ready for implementation . Most state exchanges are not ready and I haven't even heard of a plan for the Federal exchange. The emperor can't decide who he wants to exempt and who he wants to screw . He has illegally made exemptions and unilaterally and unconstitutionally granted tax credits etc . The Pelosi Reid Congress wrote into the law an unconstitutional provision that extends funding credits to Obamacare for a decade knowing they were being booted out of the majority .
So the compromise that will avoid a confrontation that could result in the emperor and Reid shutting the gvt down would be delay implementation for a year ;and take up this fight again after the 2014 mid-terms .

You got your sequester, be happy with it as it kicks in. You have bills that give money to rich farmers, a few in congress, and cut food stamps by billions. Still you shill for the insurance industry, and note how crazy we are for helping ordinary citizens trapped in the biggest financial disaster of our time. No jobs bill for them even though we have PLENTY of work, and PLENTY of people who need it.

Still you want more from the poor and working poor and give nothing back. Naw! Lets have this confrontation.

we have PLENTY of work, and PLENTY of people who need it.



If, as you say, this is so, what does it take to connect the two. I suggest you are spouting a myth. We saw this myth in operation for many years here. Jobs than no one was skilled for and they created a fabrication something like your green card that allowed foreign workers to be hired

You got your sequester, be happy with it as it kicks in. You have bills that give money to rich farmers, a few in congress, and cut food stamps by billions. Still you shill for the insurance industry, and note how crazy we are for helping ordinary citizens trapped in the biggest financial disaster of our time. No jobs bill for them even though we have PLENTY of work, and PLENTY of people who need it.

Still you want more from the poor and working poor and give nothing back. Naw! Lets have this confrontation.

When you see me supporting subsidies for rich farmers then I'll consider that comment relevant... plenty of work ? You must be talking about those table waiting jobs that are making up the biggest increase in women's jobs. That's your
Obama-recovery . FAIL!!

Well we could build, rebuild some bridges, pave some more highway, you know things besides women waiting table jobs. But whose stopping that? YOU GUYS ARE. Not you personally, but republican elected officials.

I went through this with Reagan, and survived.

Well we could build, rebuild some bridges, pave some more highway, you know things besides women waiting table jobs. But whose stopping that? YOU GUYS ARE. Not you personally, but republican elected officials.

I went thru this with Reagan, and survived.

Bs ;our policies would 'pave the way' for all those infrastructure jobs you think are a cure all .

Hello again, tom:


So the compromise that will avoid a confrontation that could result in the emperor and Reid shutting the gvt down That IS the spin, isn't it? But, NOBODY believes that. All you're doing is guaranteeing that Nancy Peloci will win back her speakership..

Bwa, ha ha ha ha ha... Snicker, snicker..

Excon

bs ;our policies would 'pave the way' for all those infrastructure jobs you think are a cure all .

Just passing the jobs bill would be easier. Like you could have done a few years ago. Naw you were to busy trying to make Obama a one term president and you failed. So what's the excuse now?

The fact is that the emperor has drawn a hard line against even negotiating with Republicans on Obamacare or even the debt ceiling. That's what's leading to the threat of a government shutdown, which the Dems believe will work in their favor.They are probably right given their special relationship with the pretorian guard of the 4th estate .

Meanwhile ,despite Tals claims ,it is the Dems who stand to reap the greatest rewards with their special relationship with the insurance lobby .
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/us/politics/reaping-profit-after-assisting-on-health-law.html?_r=0

Just passing the jobs bill would be easier. Like you could have done a few years ago. Naw you were to busy trying to make Obama a one term president and you failed. So what's the excuse now?

You are stuck in the 30s

The fact is that the emperor has drawn a hard line against even negotiating with Republicans on Obamacare or even the debt ceiling. That's what's leading to the threat of a government shutdown, which the Dems believe will work in their favor.They are probably right given their special relationship with the pretorian guard of the 4th estate .

Meanwhile ,despite Tals claims ,it is the Dems who stand to reap the greatest rewards with their special relationship with the insurance lobby .
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/us/politics/reaping-profit-after-assisting-on-health-law.html?_r=0

But lawmakers have been doing lobby work for years (decades even), so why is it a sin now?

So you approve of it... I thought so.

But lawmakers have been doing lobby work for years (decades even), so why is it a sin now?

I thought you guys hated lobbyists. In fact, I recall a promise the emperor made, and one of the first he broke...


"I am running to tell the lobbyists in Washington that their days of setting the agenda are over. They have not funded my campaign. They won't work in my White House."

There is no difference between a lobbyist, and a consultant, except one is illegal for 5 years after leaving government. It's a loophole, this is one of many. Want to close it? I wouldn't mind.

His political position is untenable, even with the media carrying his water. He will be grinding things to a halt to force Obamacare on the public even though he himself has slashed Obamacare for the benefit of big business and members of Congress
Ordered Liberty » Defund Obamacare! (http://pjmedia.com/andrewmccarthy/2013/09/19/defund-obamacare/)

Now these are FACTS Congress specifically the house has to approve all spending.


When it comes to spending, Congress has primacy, and pride of place rests with the House (the one-half of one-third Republicans control) because the Constitution mandates that spending bills originate in the lower chamber – the one closest to the people. Equally important, the hard jobs in government are the ones where an officeholder has to do something. It is a lot easier when all that's necessary is to refuse to act. Spending requires a positive act by Congress – not a thin dime may be spent unless Congress approves. That is, there can be no spending on Obamacare unless Congress votes to approve it. Thus, the one-half-of-one-third crowd is in the driver's seat. All they need to do is say, “No.” It is President Obama who needs action here – congressional Republicans need only decline to act.

They did, so don't balk when you get the bill. All you had to do was say no. YOU GUYS DIDN"T say NO!!!

McCarthy is not quite correct on that point . Since we are still working on a CR ,a move has to be made to take the funding out of the CR (remember that the Dems added a decade worth of funding in the law when they "deemed "it. )

Well it just passed in the house. One dem and one repub crossed over.

Hello again,

It occurs to me that right wingers AREN'T afraid the law will FAIL, as much as they're afraid that it will SUCCEED and become part of the fabric of the collective conscience. Worst yet, it'll be a clear legacy victory for President Obama. Can't have that.

If they actually think it's a "trainwreck", they should let it be implemented, and when it turns out to BE a trainwreck, it'll be EASY to repeal...

excon

Hello again,

It occurs to me that right wingers AREN'T afraid the law will FAIL, as much as they’re afraid that it will SUCCEED and become part of the fabric of the collective conscience. Worst yet, it'll be a clear legacy victory for President Obama. Can't have that.

If they actually think it's a "trainwreck", they should let it be implemented, and when it turns out to BE a trainwreck, it'll be EASY to repeal...

excon

There's that word 'collective ' again. I heard the emperor use that word yesterday when he was speaking about how important the government was in our lives.
But why would I want a 'train wreck ' implemented just to prove my point ? The right thing to do would be to attempt to prevent a train wreck .

But why would I want a 'train wreck ' implemented just to prove my point ? The right thing to do would be to attempt to prevent a train wreck .
Ah, but there might NOT be a train wreck, and the journey will be through amazing picturesque countryside.

Hello again, tom:

But why would I want a 'train wreck ' implemented just to prove my point ?Because that would be the ONLY way you COULD prove your point... Certainly, flapping your gums ain't doing it.

Excon

Hello again, tom:
Because that would be the ONLY way you COULD prove your point... Certainly, flapping your gums ain't doing it.

excon

So you think I want the economy destroyed to prove my point ? You are talking to me.. not the emperor.

so you think I want the economy destroyed to prove my point ? You are talking to me ..not the emperor.

Progressives want to build a new house we all can live in, and conservative want to fix up the old house for themselves and everybody else can sleep in the back yard.

We gotcha.

Progressives expect a couple of the people to pay for the entire apartment block to be built

Progressives want to build a new house we all can live in, and conservative want to fix up the old house for themselves and everybody else can sleep in the back yard.

We gotcha.

You want to inflict this monstrosity on the people while at the same time delaying corporate mandates ;and exempting government employees. At the minimum the individual mandate should be delayed until the exchanges are set up , the software works ,and there is actually a way to verify eligibility for the subsidies .
But no ;you want individuals to start paying for the plan before there is ever a chance of it working . Let me advise you that the best thing you could do at this point is call your Reps in Capitol Hill and insist that the implementation get delayed until after the 2014 elections.

Nahh this plan is a train wreck that I don't want to see inflicted on the American people .

Hello again, tom:

you want to inflict this monstrosity on the people Round 6 months ago we had a presidential election... One guy said his FIRST job was to repeal Obamacare.. He lost.

Doesn't THAT poll count?

Excon

But no ;you want individuals to start paying for the plan before there is ever a chance of it working

Yes, people with no insurance should get some right NOW! Why is this a big deal if you have insurance already? The only states that aren't ready are the ones the republican governors have dithered on but the insurances companies are ready.

You want to make excuses for the next 8 days, go ahead.

You want to shutdown the government unless its repealed, GO AHEAD.

I know, you don't care, we're supposed to love this thing that most Americans don't want and never did anyway. But here goes anyway, the reason we've had this crap on forced on us? Obama needed a campaign applause line (http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=3D54391A-A0FE-4626-85AD-9AB63471E8E2)...


“We needed something to say,” recalled one of the advisers involved in the discussion. “I can’t tell you how little thought was given to that thought other than it sounded good...

And so from an applause line by the guy who probably wasn't going to win anyway who needed SOMETHING to say, we're screwed. Compare to the Syria red line, he just needed something to say. What else is a product of the guy just needed something to say? Terrific...

Good luck with health care exchanges that aren't ready to go (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/on-small-business/one-week-away-obamacares-small-business-insurance-exchanges-not-all-ready-for-launch/2013/09/23/1d44cc46-2225-11e3-a358-1144dee636dd_story.html) in finding something that doesn't give you fewer choices than you had before.


Lower Health Insurance Premiums to Come at Cost of Fewer Choices
By ROBERT PEAR

WASHINGTON — Federal officials often say that health insurance will cost consumers less than expected under President Obama’s health care law. But they rarely mention one big reason: many insurers are significantly limiting the choices of doctors and hospitals available to consumers.

From California to Illinois to New Hampshire, and in many states in between, insurers are driving down premiums by restricting the number of providers who will treat patients in their new health plans.

...

Some consumer advocates and health care providers are increasingly concerned. Decades of experience with Medicaid, the program for low-income people, show that having an insurance card does not guarantee access to specialists or other providers.

Consumers should be prepared for “much tighter, narrower networks” of doctors and hospitals, said Adam M. Linker, a health policy analyst at the North Carolina Justice Center, a statewide advocacy group.

Over to you for the "it just needs a few tweaks" pablum.

I know, you don't care, we're supposed to love this thing that most Americans don't want
But... but... but... Massachusetts LOVES Romneycare!

Hello:

Over to you for the "it just needs a few tweaks" pablum.In my state, I calculated the cost (http://www.wahbexchange.org/index.php?cID=472) for a 32 year old single person who makes $25,000 a year. His cost for a silver plan (not the best, but not the worst), is $144/mo.

That's not bad. No tweaking needed here.

Yeah... That's the stuff I focus on - the people who'll benefit. That's about 33 MILLION people. If you want to offer an amendment that'll tweak how we pay for it, that'll be GREAT. But, it's HERE. It's the LAW of the LAND, and it AIN'T going anywhere.

If you DON'T suggest a better way to pay for it, then the way the DEMOCRATS did it, will take effect shortly... So, you can be part of the SOLUTION, or you can shut down the government...

How's that going to work for you?

Before I go, let me ask you this: If kidnappers killed your children because you DIDN'T pay the ransom, is their death on YOU, or the kidnappers??

Excon

In 13 states plus DC... premiums will be 24% higher than BEFORE Obamacare.

Interactive Map: In 13 States Plus D.C., Obamacare Will Increase Health Premiums By 24%, On Average - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/09/04/interactive-map-in-13-states-plus-d-c-individual-health-premiums-will-increase-by-an-average-of-24/)

In 13 states plus DC...premiums will be 24% higher than BEFORE Obamacare
Competition will bring that back down. Sit tight. Breathe deeply. This is America, the land of free enterprise.

Competition will bring that back down. Sit tight. Breathe deeply. This is America, the land of free enterprise.

Yeah and right... just like the total cost is now well over triple what Obama promised would be the total cost...


Excuse me if I don't believe an administration that has lied about everything for 5 straight years.

I click on a few states and there was no data yet for the exchange rates. Half the staes cited had lower rates

Most states are seeing rate hikes; some will see reductions


Three states will see meaningful declines in rates: Colorado (34 percent), Ohio (30 percent), and New York (27 percent).


Because Obamacare forces most Americans to buy health insurance, and subsidizes the purchase of that insurance for certain low-income populations, individual-market premiums in many of these highly-regulated states will go down. But in most others, rates will go up

The better the rules and regulation, the cheaper the price. Thanks Smoothy. Oh it says states have to make rules and regulations to keep prices down in the ACA.

That's easy... everyone will have a $20,000 deductible. That's how prices are kept down... services are limited and out of pocket is increased.

That's the differnce between a good and a cheap medical plan now... and its not going to change... you can't get something for nothing.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/09/23/its-official-obamacare-will-increase-health-spending-by-7450-for-a-typical-family-of-four/

http://b-i.forbesimg.com/theapothecary/files/2013/09/CostperFamily.png

Hello:
In my state, I calculated the cost (http://www.wahbexchange.org/index.php?cID=472) for a 32 year old single person who makes $25,000 a year. His cost for a silver plan (not the best, but not the worst), is $144/mo.

That's not bad. No tweaking needed here.

Yeah... That's the stuff I focus on - the people who'll benefit. That's about 33 MILLION people. If you wanna offer an amendment that'll tweak how we pay for it, that'll be GREAT. But, it's HERE. It's the LAW of the LAND, and it AIN'T going anywhere.

If you DON'T suggest a better way to pay for it, then the way the DEMOCRATS did it, will take effect shortly... So, you can be part of the SOLUTION, or you can shut down the government....

How's that gonna work for ya?

Before I go, lemme ask you this: If kidnappers killed your children because you DIDN'T pay the ransom, is their death on YOU, or the kidnappers???

excon

Dude, even the NY Times admits the insurance companies are going to be dictating even fewer choices - and all thanks to a guy who just needed something to say. All he wanted was to win and damn the consequences.

So you think it was okay to pay premiums for years and get kicked out when you get sick?

So you think it was okay to pay premiums for years and get kicked out when you get sick?

Who does that happen to? And not some unsubstantiated story that gets passed down through the office grapevine.

https://www.healthcare.gov/health-insurance-marketplace/
Interesting info...

https://www.healthcare.gov/health-insurance-marketplace/
Interesting info...

Except its by the same people that lied about its true cost for years. The Obama administration.

https://www.healthcare.gov/health-insurance-marketplace/
Interesting info...

Yes it is interesting sort of dispels some of the hype but you should ask yourselves why you would pay twice as much as I do for health coverage, whose getting the benefit of that? And why if you pay 2.5% of your income you don't get a benefit for that

I pay nothing. Nothing to add my spouse (when I had one), nothing to add my dependent. I have no co-pay. I have medical, dental, orthopedic, prescription, vision, chiropractic, and acupuncture. My deductible is $250 per person and tops out at $500. If my employer decides not to provide this insurance, it will cost me thousands of dollars. Using Excon's calculator ( I also live in the same state) I will pay $429/month without the subsidy, and $210/mo with the subsidy - for silver coverage, and I don't think that is including anything besides medical...

I pay nothing. Nothing to add my spouse (when I had one), nothing to add my dependent. I have no co-pay. I have medical, dental, orthopedic, prescription, vision, chiropractic, and acupuncture. My deductible is $250 per person and tops out at $500. If my employer decides not to provide this insurance, it will cost me thousands of dollars. Using Excon's calculator ( I also live in the same state) I will pay $429/month without the subsidy, and $210/mo with the subsidy - for silver coverage, and I don't think that is including anything besides medical......

I think you miss the point, your coverage is provided as a fringe benefit so you get it as part of a salary package how ever defined and therefore you do pay in the form of a lower salary or cash not received. It seems the costs vary greatly from state to state and you have to ask why. When you quote these costs you didn't say whether you have other family members covered but assuming you don't I pay $130 a month for coverage with similar benefits, so ask yourself who gets the benefit of the difference

You have to remember age play a factor in insurance costs as well.

We've had a PPO, meaning we can go to any doctor or specialist that accepts the insurance without a referral (that's almost any we have tried)... had a $15 copay per visit... and a zero deductible... for about $450 a month and I am just over 50 and she is just under it. No way is Obamacare going to improve on that. And that's for a family... not per person. Or even just two.

I think you miss the point, your coverage is provided as a fringe benefit so you get it as part of a salary package how ever defined and therefore you do pay in the form of a lower salary or cash not received. It seems the costs vary greatly from state to state and you have to ask why. When you quote these costs you didn't say whether you have other family members covered but assuming you don't I pay $130 a month for coverage with similar benefits, so ask yourself who gets the benefit of the difference
Well, I'm not salary, I'm hourly.
Also - as I said, there is no extra cost to add a dependent, be it one child or four, and no cost to add a spouse (my son is covered, and my ex-husband was covered while we were married). There is NO COST to me whatsoever. You can refer to it as 'fringe benefits' if you want, I am fully aware of what a fringe benefit package entails (I don't have one) it makes no difference. My point is - it's going to cost some people, like myself, money. Thousands of dollars to pay for something inferior to what you may already have.

Well, I'm not salary, I'm hourly.
Also - as I said, there is no extra cost to add a dependent, be it one child or four, and no cost to add a spouse (my son is covered, and my ex-husband was covered while we were married). There is NO COST to me whatsoever. You can refer to it as 'fringe benefits' if you want, I am fully aware of what a fringe benefit package entails (I don't have one) it makes no difference. My point is - it's going to cost some people, like myself, money. Thousands of dollars to pay for something inferior to what you may already have.

But weren't you told 'if you like your plan you can keep it ' ? I haven't me a person yet who can tell me that is true when the rubber meets the road. At a minimum it will cost the lucky ones a lot more money in contributions to existing plans (so far my case ) . The unlucky ones?. well ask IBM retirees ; ask Home Depot and Walgreens ,and Trader Joe's employees .


As the official start date for Obamacare draws ever closer, there is more evidence that the law simply won't perform as advertised and, in fact, will cause even greater harm to American society than without the "healthcare reform" it was supposedly crafted to deliver.

Particularly hard hit will be businesses that are going to be required to provide certain levels of health insurance coverage to their employees. The result is going to be a) higher costs to the businesses' customers; and b) a net loss in employment, especially full-time employment.

A new employer survey has found that a plurality of mid-sized and large businesses - 40 percent of 420 companies surveyed - said they are planning changes to the designs of their insurance plans next year and other changes to reduce employee related costs as a new excise tax imposed by Obamacare approaches with pricier plans.

Also, according to Towers Watson, the firm conducting the survey, 60 percent of companies look at private health insurance exchanges as one way of controlling their healthcare and administrative costs by dumping their employees into the state-run health insurance pools called for under the law
Forty percent of U.S. companies to alter health care plans, drop coverage, due to Obamacare (http://www.naturalnews.com/041815_US_companies_healthcare_plans_Obamacare.htm l)
Deloitte estimates that 10% of the companies in the country will drop their employee coverage and opt for their employees to enrole in these new exchanges (many of which are not even close to being ready to implement ) .

But that was the plan all along . The Dems knew that this system would collapse the private health insurance industry . They wanted it to happen that way so they could get around to their real goal... full central state run and control of health care .

but weren't you told 'if you like your plan you can keep it
Not quite. I work for a union shop, I am a non-bargaining member, as is every employee who is not an electrician ( project managers, estimators, office managers (moi), etc.. ) we have no say in union matters, don't pay dues, but do get the benefits. If my employer decides to no longer offer the benefits to us, we lose it. Done and done.

Not quite. I work for a union shop, I am a non-bargaining member, as is every employee who is not an electrician ( project managers, estimators, office managers (moi), etc..) we have no say in union matters, don't pay dues, but do get the benefits. If my employer decides to no longer offer the benefits to us, we lose it. Done and done.

And you are saying your union brothers won't defend you, shame! But surely if it is a union shop the other ranks can have a union too

and you are saying your union brothers won't defend you, shame! But surely if it is a union shop the other ranks can have a union too
Hmm... in what world would a bargaining member 'defend' a non-bargaining member?! That makes no sense. Anyhow - my point stands. If my employer decides to cut our coverage, it will cost us money. It does not benefit us in any way, it is quite the contrary. (btw - in regards to 'the other ranks can have a union too' - that's not how it works.)

Hmm...in what world would a bargaining member 'defend' a non-bargaining member?! That makes no sense. Anyhow - my point stands. If my employer decides to cut our coverage, it will cost us money. It does not benefit us in any way, it is quite the contrary. (btw - in regards to 'the other ranks can have a union too' - that's not how it works.)

How can you be a non-bargaining member? You mean you are just there to make up the numbers. What you are saying is your union brothers forged an agreement where non members are included in the benefits. You don't understand unions, any erosion of benefits is an attack on the union's rights and benefits and they will defend these because they know if you are excluded they are next

How can you be a non-bargaining member Umm have you never heard of this? I didn't make it up. I work for an electrical contracting company that is in the union with IBEW(International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers)but I am not a 'laborer' (in this case an electrician) I work in the office. The owners signed an agreement with the union that allows the same health benefits the union (electricians) members get for the non-bargaining (non-electricians)employees.

you mean you are just there to make up the numbers Make up the numbers? What numbers - explain this.

You don't understand unions, Huh - I don't? Enlighten me, please.

any erosion of benefits is an attack on the union's rights and benefits and they will defend these because they know if you are excluded they are next
Again - I am a non-bargaining member (you should really look that up) Sure - any erosion on the unions benefits would be seen as an attack. Again, (and again) I am a non-bargaining member, what happens to the office employees health benefits have no sway whatsoever on the union members - at all. You suggesting so makes me think that you don't understand unions.
Anyhow, this thread is being side-barred - my point, again, is that Obamacare will cost a lot of people a lot of money. A lot.

Umm have you never heard of this? I didn't make it up. I work for an electrical contracting company that is in the union with IBEW(International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers).

Let me enlighten you if I can?

Firstly; as an office worker I was a member of a union for many years, I didn't have to be but like you I enjoyed the flow on from what the unions negotiated, a somewhat similar situation to yourself. As a member of middle management I felt I should show my solidarity with those I worked with, I was both card carrying and paid up. Notice that word solidarity, it is the key to unions.

Secondly; I was raised in the home of a staunch member of a union, my father fought against communist control of his union. the Miners Federation. So I understood the nature of unions from an early age. Not many shed blood for what they believe but he did. This is also in the nature of unions

I fail to understand that you say your company is in the union, I hope you mean they have a contract with the union. Now I also understand that life in our two nations is different but one in all in is a universal union principle

I was both card carrying and paid up. Notice that word solidarity, it is the key to unions.
Solidarity is key, for members. I carry no card, I pay no dues. I WORK for a union shop. I am not IN the union.

I fail to understand that you say your company is in the union, I hope you mean they have a contract with the union. Yes - that is what I mean. I work for a company that has an agreement with PSEW IBEW (Puget Sound Electrical Workers International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers) Local 46.
The company I work for employs union electricians. They do the labor. The office staff of course, are not electricians, therefore we do not belong to the electricians union. We are lucky enough that the owners of the company wanted to provide for us the same benefits that are given to the electricians, they signed an agreement with the union that would allow us such. If at any time, the owners want to 'cancel' this agreement, it makes no difference to the actual union members at all.
Their medical coverage (included in their fringe benefit package - which is actually around $17.48/ HR) is unphased and unchanged. I don't know how this became a union lecture - I was trying to say that Obamacare is not good for a lot of people. I am very happy where I am coverage wise - and am worried sick (no pun intended) that my employer will decide to drop it, and I will find myself with just one more expense for something half as good. Boo and boo.

and you are saying your union brothers won't defend you, shame! but surely if it is a union shop the other ranks can have a union too

You know as well as I do that the unions are DESPERATELY petitioning Congress to change the provisions of Obamacare that they are getting burned over .

Solidarity is key, for members. I carry no card, I pay no dues. I WORK for a union shop. I am not IN the union.
Yes - that is what I mean. I work for a company that has an agreement with PSEW IBEW (Puget Sound Electrical Workers International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers) Local 46.
The company I work for employs union electricians. They do the labor. The office staff of course, are not electricians, therefore we do not belong to the electricians union. We are lucky enough that the owners of the company wanted to provide for us the same benefits that are given to the electricians, they signed an agreement with the union that would allow us such. If at any time, the owners want to 'cancel' this agreement, it makes no difference to the actual union members at all.
Their medical coverage (included in their fringe benefit package - which is actually around $17.48/ HR) is unphased and unchanged. I don't know how this became a union lecture - I was trying to say that Obamacare is not good for a lot of people. I am very happy where I am coverage wise - and am worried sick (no pun intended) that my employer will decide to drop it, and I will find myself with just one more expense for something half as good. Boo and boo.

You are justified in being concerned. Some companies have calculated the added expenses of carrying their employees in a company sponsored plan. But I suspect many are going to be hit square between the eyes when are confronted with these escalating costs . Many will make the raw calculation that the exchanges are a real alternative.

Hello again,
Many will make the raw calculation that the exchanges are a real alternative.Companies like Trader Joe's supplement their employees purchase of health care on the exchanges. It results in LOWER costs for the company, and GOOD coverage at NO additional cost for their employees.

I think that's the way it's supposed to happen.

Excon

you know as well as I do that the unions are DESPERATELY petitioning Congress to change the provisions of Obamacare that they are getting burned over .

Unions do what Unions do particularly when the government is sypathetic to their views. This what happens when you allow industry lobbies to write legislation I wonder did the forerunner of the NRA write the second amendment

did the forerunner of the NRA write the second amendment
Yes... the people demanded the right to arm. They told the people writing the Constitution that if they tried to take their arms ,to meet them in Concord.

Well, I'm not salary, I'm hourly.
Also - as I said, there is no extra cost to add a dependent, be it one child or four, and no cost to add a spouse (my son is covered, and my ex-husband was covered while we were married). There is NO COST to me whatsoever. You can refer to it as 'fringe benefits' if you want, I am fully aware of what a fringe benefit package entails (I don't have one) it makes no difference. My point is - it's going to cost some people, like myself, money. Thousands of dollars to pay for something inferior to what you may already have.


Are you positive on this? Employer paid healthcare is a benefit as well as paid holidays and such. It should be spelled out in your contract how much the contribution is.

Are you sure there are no payroll deductions for part of a health care premium? If not then having to pay something would surely be an added expense, and I know many unions, and non union shop that have increases in their contributions for employer based health insurance.

I am a union guy, and many union shops have contracting out language in their contracts that cover private employees of the company. You sound like an employee of the company that works at the companies discretion, as needed. I don't know if there are enough of you that want a union, but you do have the right to form one or join one, dues and benefits to boot. However if your own contract does indeed cover the total cost of insurance in lieu of pay, then the company can compel you to pay a part of that cost at anytime, Obama Care, or NOT.

However while the right uses the dissatisfaction of unions to bolster the claim that they are against Obama Care, what he fails to acknowledge is the unions in question are still negotiating with the government to iron out a few details that are sticking points and actually are a narrow portion of the total union membership. Much like the exemption for religious organizations.

Many will find out the insurance they have is not what they thought, or the costs that are shifted to you from companies are higher than they were. But the costs for insurance has been going up for companies for a long time, and many can no longer absorb those costs or must shift a higher burden to the employees. Union, or non union. Been there, done that, and that was years ago, well before Obama Care.

I don't know what state you are in, but that has more impact on your costs than the company you work for. It's the state that regulates insurance companies, and some will implement the rules and regulations differently, and frankly, cost will rise until the standards are more uniform between ALL the states.

Yeah free is better than paying a dollar, so you better find out what you actually have before you decide to like it. Trust me companies have used many network restrictions to mitigate those costs to them for decades. Cost shifting is old as dirt.

Read your contract and what your health care calls for under that contract, then you will actually know if you are getting a great deal, or bamboozled by things you don't know. I suspect your deductibles for service are high as hell just from what you wrote. And I bet you get no bills as to what the actual costs for service is.

Blow your mind if you found out that through your deductible you were paying half the bill out of pocket wouldn't it? Find out, and then make a decision whether you like what you have, OR NOT.

(I don't know what state you are in
You sound like an employee of the company that works at the companies discretion, as needed (I'm in the state of WA - work 40 hrs a week. I guess technically every employed person is working at the owners discretion, but for the last 7 years his discretion has been to have me come in at 7:45 to 4:30 every single day ;) )

When I was offered this job I couldn't believe it. I thought the insurance (the main reason I took this job) was too good to be true but I found that it was good, and it was true! On my offer letter, it reads: Healthcare - 100% paid by (company), same plan that electricians have. (Those are the exact words).

My employer pays $500.00 per month,(that's a flat fee, it doesn't matter how many dependents I have or if I'm married or not) per office employee (there are five of us, 3 project managers/estimators, the owner, and myself) to the union to cover our insurance. My deductible is $250 per person topping out at $500.

One of my tasks is to run the reports and issue the payments for the monthly benefits to the union. I know exactly how much is paid out by my company. Another of my tasks is payroll. The only deductions I have on my pay is medicare, fed tax, social security, and state industrial (L&I). That's it. Pretty dang lucky.

As I said earlier, you can call my coverage 'fringe benefits' if you want, it was not presented in my offer letter as such, but it doesn't change what I'm saying, (I suppose when I think of that term I associate it with what the electricians have as a fringe benefit package - pensions, annuities, healthcare, apprentice training, benefit funds, etc.) if the coverage is dropped insurance will become an extra expense for me. That's the truth! I know what I already have, and me likes it.

I suspect the union is picking up a good percentage of the cost of your plan. Your change may not come immediately.. but change is coming and it will result in you having to shell out more $$$$$$$$$$$$$

'Cadillac' Health Plans Taxed By Obamacare - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/cadillac-health-plans-taxed-by-obamacare-2013-8)


Under Obamacare, the government won't start taxing employers who offer so-called “Cadillac” health benefits to their workers for another five years, but companies are already starting to cut back on such plans.

“Employers can't wait until 2018 and make one huge change to their plans,” says Tracy Watts, a senior partner with Mercer. “They're already starting making changes now, so that in 2018 it won't be as hard for employees.”

Under the Affordable Care Act, companies will have to pay an excise tax on plans that cost more than $10,200 for an individual or $27,500 for a family. The employer will have to pay a 40 percent tax on the cost each plan above those levels. (There will be higher thresholds for retiree health plans and for high-risk professions, though the details of those have yet to be announced.)

Many people would be surprised to learn that their current plan would be considered a “Cadillac” plan under Obamacare rules.

“Most of us pay high premiums, and don't feel like we have a high-cost policy,” says Cynthia Weidner, vice president of health and welfare and consulting at HighRoads. “Everyone thinks, 'I don't have a Cadillac plan, my coverage stinks.'”

Actually, even the average health plan costs more than the Cadillac thresholds mandated by Obamacare - about $10,522 per employee, according to the Society for Human Resource Management. (The law includes premiums paid by both the employer and the employee.) At that price, employers would pay a 40 percent tax on the $322 difference—about $130. For a company with 10,000 employees, that equates to a $1,300,000 tax bill.

However, it's not just large companies that are worrying about the excise tax. “It's an issue for every single employer, particularly for state and local governments,” says J.D. Piro, senior vice president of Aon Hewitt's health and benefits legal team. “Governments tend to offer more expensive health benefits than private businesses, and workers often accept lower wages in exchange for those benefits.” (For this reason, unions strongly objected to this provision in the law before it was passed.)

Making it more difficult for employers, some of the minimum requirements of health plans under Obamacare are driving up the cost of plans, just as employers are looking for ways to push costs down. All plans, for example, must now fully cover all preventative care treatments, maternity care, and emergency care.

A Mercer study conducted last year found that 42 percent of employers said that if they made no changes to the plan, they'd be hit by the excise tax in 2018. Mercer projects that it will hit 55 percent of employers by 2022. The survey found that 59 percent of employers would take steps to lower the cost of their plan, with 26 percent saying they'll do whatever is necessary to lower costs below the threshold amount.

"yes .... the people demanded the right to arm. They told the people writing the Constitution that if they tried to take their arms ,to meet them in Concord."

I doubt that the citizens had to demand much from the writers of the constitution. John Adams left Abigail at home for in some cases years at a time. They knew how to look out for and fend for themselves.
I don't understand what plan the average Joe in America has for defending himself and his family which I asked for in another topic but the founders had a plan and it definitely involved firearms.

the average Joe in America has for defending himself and his family
And I'm still wondering what there is to defend against (for many families). We have lived in a pleasant upper-middle-class suburb of Chicago since 1972 and have enough arms and ammo in our basement to wipe out the gangs in Chicago, but have never had a break-in or personal threat of any sort ourselves.

For starters... the Obamazombies if the Messiah declares himself president for life... and suspends the constitution.

But if that never happens... the mere fact there are enough people armed and ready to fight back... means the less likely someone will try a repeat of what happened in Germany in the 30's.

If its never needed in our lifetimes... so much the better.

Better to have it and not need it... then need it and not have it.

Re Abigail... Abby made the bullets !


When the British fired on Boston's harbor and left the continental army with nothing to defend themselves with, Abigail could see it from the window of her house. She could feel the vibrations from the cannons as she held her children close and hoped that what she told them was true—it would all be fine in the end.

Soon after the devastating event, a few officials from the army finally received what they had been requesting for so long: weapons. Unfortunately, although they received muskets, they were dismayed to discover they did not come with bullets or gun powder; they were still defenseless.

Abigail Adams came to the rescue. She went home immediately, gathered all the silver and steel in the house, melted it down, and, with the help of her children, made bullets for the army. After seeing the bravery of this young mother the army was heartened for the first time in a long while. This beautiful act of loyalty gave inspiration to some of the authorities in the army. They heroically took up arms, went to one of the British bases, and stole gun powder and three large cannons.
Abigail Adams (http://www.revolutionary-war.net/abigail-adams.html)

the mere fact there are enough people armed and ready to fight back
They can't agree on where to go for lunch, so why do you think they would be able to coordinate enough to fight the government?

They can't agree on where to go for lunch, so why do you think they would be able to coordinate enough to fight the government?

Behind every blade of grass.

They can't agree on where to go for lunch, so why do you think they would be able to coordinate enough to fight the government?

Trust me... they can get mighty coordinated against a common foe it the need ever came up...

And a non centralized foe as numerous as this one would be formitable...

You can't cut the head off to neutralize a force that has no head to begin with.

And unlike Banana Republics and places like North Korea... you can expect most of the army to have a problem with firing on its own citizens

(I'm in the state of WA - work 40 hrs a week. I guess technically every employed person is working at the owners discretion, but for the last 7 years his discretion has been to have me come in at 7:45 to 4:30 every single day ;) )

When I was offered this job I couldn't believe it. I thought the insurance (the main reason I took this job) was too good to be true but I found that it was good, and it was true! On my offer letter, it reads: Healthcare - 100% paid by (company), same plan that electricians have. (Those are the exact words).

My employer pays $500.00 per month,(that's a flat fee, it doesn't matter how many dependents I have or if I'm married or not) per office employee (there are five of us, 3 project managers/estimators, the owner, and myself) to the union to cover our insurance. My deductible is $250 per person topping out at $500.

One of my tasks is to run the reports and issue the payments for the monthly benefits to the union. I know exactly how much is paid out by my company. Another of my tasks is payroll. The only deductions I have on my pay is medicare, fed tax, social security, and state industrial (L&I). That's it. Pretty dang lucky.

As I said earlier, you can call my coverage 'fringe benefits' if you want, it was not presented in my offer letter as such, but it doesn't change what I'm saying, (I suppose when I think of that term I associate it with what the electricians have as a fringe benefit package - pensions, annuities, healthcare, apprentice training, benefit funds, etc.) if the coverage is dropped insurance will become an extra expense for me. That's the truth! I know what I already have, and me likes it.

Your lucky to have a business savvy boss. I have a family member with her own business who is expanding her services, and upgraded her employee health insurance plan.


Just curious if you have network restrictions on your coverage, or is that your complete choice?

Trust me....they can get might coordinated against a common foe it the need ever came up...

And a non centralized foe as numerous as this one would be formitable....

You can't cut the head off to neutralize a force that has no head to begin with.

Nazi take over? Armed resistance to the government? Man are you out there. Its less messy to vote every two years.

Nazi take over? Armed resistance to the government?? Man are you out there.

Listen to your own people that talk about a third term for the Messiah... how do you think that can ever happen? And what would be the result of even trying?

Putting up with two elections no matter how fraudulent they were is one thing... putting up with that stunt would be another.

Incidentally... the Germans didn't see that coming before it happened either...

Listen to your own people that talk about a third term for the Messiah.....how do you think that can ever happen? and what would be the result of even trying?

Your making that crap up. A delusion from the extremist fringe on the right.



Putting up with two elections no matter how fraudulent they were is one thing....putting up with that stunt would be another..

Sour grapes from the LOSERS. Even republicans are beginning to realize both elections were fair and decisive, except you right wing extremists who think that the will of the people can't be against them.



Incidently...the Germans didn't see that coming before it happened either....

We see YOU wingnuts coming though, and ain't going for it. You probably love Ted Cruz too! That's sad. I feel for you.

Quote:
Just curious if you have network restrictions on your coverage, or is that your complete choice?

Are you asking me? Not sure I understand your question... do you mean restrictions on who I can go to, restrictions with needing referrals? That sort of thing?

Your making that crap up. A delusion from the extremist fringe on the right.



Sour grapes from the LOSERS. Even republicans are beginning to realize both elections were fair and decisive, except you right wing extremists who think that the will of the people can't be against them.



We see YOU wingnuts coming though, and ain't going for it. You probably love Ted Cruz too! That's sad. I feel for you.


Not sour grapes. Facts, it was proven in many precincts where its statistically impossible for the Republican candidate to get ZERO votes... and legally impossible to have more votes cast than you have legal age adults living in the precinct much less actually registered to vote. Not to mention the cases in Philly where there was videotape proof of lefties threatening and intimidating people at the polls... that the Obama thugs refused to even prosecute...

But then... the lefties have absolutely no problem breaking any and every law on the books and even the constitution to opress the American public... despite their not having any mandate or even the majority popular opinion behind them.

THe left has lied so much about everything... they have convinced themselves that their lies are truth.. when there is absolutely zero proof to back them up.

And they whine and cry every time someone calls them out...

Listen to your own people that talk about a third term for the Messiah
Huh? I am in the swirl of things and read a lot and watch MSNBC and talk to people and have never heard that.

Huh? I am in the swirl of things and read a lot and watch MSNBC and talk to people and have never heard that.

I think that's the problem... you might be their (MSNBC) entire audience. That and maybe 3 or 4 other people that tuned in by accident.

We have had that argument before and 5 million votes difference can't be all fraud. We do have documented evidence on tape of confessions on your side, shaving votes strategy with voter ID, eliminating early voting, and employing shady characters to register REPUBLICAN voters in 3 states.

You and your opinion is a minority one not based in facts. 5 million votes?? We ain't that good. Get with reality man and dig a hole to hide in until the right wing messiah wins the white house, senate, and house. Take extra chips and a change of DEPENDS, it may be a while.


are you asking me? Not sure i understand your question....do you mean restrictions on who i can go to, restrictions with needing referrals? That sort of thing?

Yes, :)

I think thats the problem...you might be their (MSNBC) entire audience. that and maybe 3 or 4 other people that tuned in by accident.

I think they broadcast from inside one of the State hosiptals for the Criminally Insane.

We have had that argument before and 5 million votes difference can't be all fraud. We do have documented evidence on tape of confessions on your side, shaving votes strategy with voter ID, eliminating early voting, and employing shady characters to register REPUBLICAN voters in 3 states.

You and your opinion is a minority one not based in facts. 5 million votes??? We ain't that good. Get with reality man and dig a hole to hide in until the right wing messiah wins the white house, senate, and house. Take extra chips and a change of DEPENDS, it may be a while.

We've proven it... you just don't want to accept it... big differnce.

I suppose you believe Benghazi was about a video nobody ever saw... and the Holder never sold a single weapon to theMexican Drug cartels... because Obama says so?

I think thats the problem...you might be their (MSNBC) entire audience. that and maybe 3 or 4 other people that tuned in by accident.
Even I am giving upon MSNBC (they talk too fast, are reading off teleprompters I bet, no longer seem to have an original thought in their heads, lie and tell half truths, and a few more irritations I can't think of right now), but it would be there that a third term would be mentioned.

Even I am giving upon MSNBC (they talk too fast, are reading off teleprompters I bet, no longer seem to have an original thought in their heads, lie and tell half truths, and a few more irritations I can't think of right now), but it would be there that a third term would be mentioned.

Same holds true for ABC, NBC, CBS and NPR... their one goal is protect Obama by hiding facts and flat out lying in news reports...

Then there are the newspapers... and you don't even have to have inside connections to see how often they lie in their stories... the truth gets out by so many sources today its why almost all the leftie papers are on the verge of bankruptcy... their readers are wise to them and are cancelling subscriptions to what have become just like PRAVDA was back in the old Soviet Union. Pure propaganda... and little reality.

Just like a witness on the stand... once the lies start... any credibility they might have had is gone.

I strongly advise you to get out of the loony right wing bubble for at least an hour everyday. Start with an hour every year and work your way up.

Good luck.

>Please no greenies for good advice<

I strongly advise you to get out of the loony right wing bubble for at least an hour everyday. Start with an hour every year and work your way up.

Good luck.

>Please no greenies for good advice<

I'm hardly in a right wing bubble... I'm right smack in the middle of leftyland (Washington, DC) which is through the looking glass, and where reality much less common sense has no place. And the local government might even be more corrupt than Cuba. Nobody tops Chicago for corruption though.

Same holds true for ABC, NBC, CBS and NPR.....
And FOX.

As for newspapers, Chicago has two -- right and left. I read both. Plus magazines that are of both political persuasions. I want to know my friends as well as my enemies.

And FOX.

As for newspapers, Chicago has two -- right and left. I read both. Plus magazines that are of both political persuasions. I want to know my friends as well as my enemies.

Fox is orders of magnitude more accurate than the others...

As far as newspapers... most of them are barely worthy of lining the bottom of a bird cage these days.

Fox is orders of magnitude more accurate than the others.....
*cough*

*cough*

I said orders of magnitude better... not 100% accurate

I said orders of magnitude better....not 100% accurate
I notice they too are hiring young people who don't know which end is up. And O'Reilly is as bad as Chris Matthews -- asking a guest a question and then overtalking and interrupting him repeatedly when the poor guest tries to answer.

I'm hardly in a right wing bubble...I'm right smack in the middle of leftyland which is through the looking glass, and where reality much less common sense has no place.

Ah man so sorry for misjudging you so harshly. The left has as many loons and wingnuts as the right. Not as noisy though they can be placated to some extent.

I notice they too are hiring young people who don't know which end is up. And O'Reilly is as bad as Chris Matthews -- asking a guest a question and then overtalking and interrupting him repeatedly when the poor guest tries to answer.

At least he doesn't "get a tingly feeling running up his leg."...

Also there is a differnce... O'Reily is a commentator... not a news reporter or news anchor... Chris Matthews is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aliseaodo View Post
Are you asking me? Not sure I understand your question... do you mean restrictions on who I can go to, restrictions with needing referrals? That sort of thing?

Yes,

Soo, as far as my experience, I have never needed a referral - I can walk into anywhere and if they except my insurance I'm in. (Granted they're accepting new patients and all that jazz.. )
Here's my plan book. Pages 19 through 24 are the explanation of coverage.http://www.wpas-inc.com/documents/F33-02-SPD-Plan2-2006-WithInserts.pdf
This is info on my network:
https://www.fchn.com/ppo/

*btw I'm Class 1*

"the gangs in Chicago" to start with.
Wasn't there discussion about utilizing the National Guard in Chicago?

I have smoke detectors that have never warned me of smoke, fire extinguishers never used, locks on the doors that have never been tested by bad guys--some gout pills in case of a flare-up (haven't had one since I got the prescrip. etc.)
Not needing something in the past doesn't rule out possible need in the future.
Home invasions are still a popular sport in my tri-state area.
Waking up with a gun to my head (as happens in most of the cases) doesn't appeal to me. And yes, as I think we discussed before, I have measures in place to alert me before they get close enough to that too.
Hope you freshen up on the ammo once in a while WG, and also hope you never have to use it.
Those of us who served in the military learned to prepare for the unexpected.

"the gangs in Chicago" to start with.
Wasn't there discussion about utilizing the National Guard in Chicago?

Yes, but that's been thrown out. The Chicago chief of police has put more cops on the street around the clock in the bad neighborhoods, and that seems to be helping -- but they can't be everywhere at once. Girls getting pregnant at 13, kids with no dads (or good role models) around, poor parenting, under-performing schools, no job training and no jobs, no community spirit, etc. etc. etc. are all part of the gang problem.

Hope you freshen up on the ammo once in a while WG, and also hope you never have to use it.
We keep the powder dry here.

Soo, as far as my experience, I have never needed a referral - I can walk into anywhere and if they except my insurance I'm in. (Granted they're accepting new patients and all that jazz..)
Here's my plan book. Pages 19 through 24 are the explanation of coverage.http://www.wpas-inc.com/documents/F33-02-SPD-Plan2-2006-WithInserts.pdf
This is info on my network:
https://www.fchn.com/ppo/

*btw I'm Class 1*

Thanks I appreciate the info to compare with. My pet peeve is that righties want to repeal the law, but don't offer replacements that make sense at this time. I am watching my own Senator from Texas speaking in the senate, and never not once has he offered a plan to address all the uninsured in Texas a viable plan, let alone the rest of the country, or ever rising costs.

I mean damn all those young people that have to pay now will benefit as they get older for sure when arthritis replaces piss and vinegar.

In looking through my plan book, I saw that I was incorrect about my deductible - it is $300/yr per person, topping out at $600, NOT $250 topping out at $500 as I thought...

I wonder how many more of these stories (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/24/one-man-obamacare-nightmare/) we're going to hear in the next few weeks.


Andy and Amy Mangione of Louisville, Ky. And their two boys are just the kind of people who should be helped by ObamaCare. But they recently got a nasty surprise in the mail.

"When I saw the letter when I came home from work," Andy said, describing the large red wording on the envelope from his insurance carrier, "(it said) 'your action required, benefit changes, act now.' Of course I opened it immediately."

It had stunning news. Insurance for the Mangiones and their two boys,which they bought on the individual market, was going to almost triple in 2014 --- from $333 a month to $965.

The insurance carrier made it clear the increase was in order to be compliant with the new health care law.

"This isn't a Cadillac plan, this isn't even a silver plan," Mangione said, referring to higher levels of coverage under ObamaCare.

"This is a high deductible plan where I'm assuming a lot of risk for my health insurance for my family. And nothing has changed, our boys are healthy-- they're young --my wife is healthy. I'm healthy, nothing in our medical history has changed to warrant a tripling of our premiums.

"Well I'm the one that does the budget,” said his wife. "Eventually I've got that coming down the pike that I gotta figure out what we're gonna cut what we're gonna do, to afford a $1,000 a month premium."

Their insurance company, Humana, declined to comment, but the notice to the Mangiones carried this paragraph:

" If your policy premium increased, you should know this isn't unique to Humana -- premium increases generally will occur industry-wide.

"Increases aren't based on your individual claims or changes in health status," it continued. "Many other factors go in to your premium including: ACA compliance, including the addition of new essential health benefits."

ACA, of course, is the abbreviation for the President's new law, the Affordable Care Act -- which for the Mangiones will be anything but affordable because the law adds a new tax on every insurance policy and requires a list of additional benefits the Mangiones didn’t want to pay for.

Robert Zirkelbach, spokesman for American Health Insurance Plans, which represents insurers,explained that "for people who currently choose to purchase a high deductible, low premium policy that's more affordable for them, they are now being required to add all these new benefits to their policy.

That," he says, "is also going to add to the cost of their health insurance premiums."

This comes amid a huge debate over whether ObamaCare will raise or lower insurance rates.

For the Mangiones, that answer is abundantly clear.

But, but, but, if you LIKE your plan you can keep your plan!!

I wonder how many more of these stories (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/24/one-man-obamacare-nightmare/) we're going to hear in the next few weeks.

Have all Humana insureds received this kind of letter?

I haven't, but my employer pays for it. The point is this family buys their own insurance, a high deductible plan that they can't keep because Obamacare requires additional coverage which makes it more expensive. Tripled their cost in fact and will not permit them to keep the plan they liked.

I haven't, but my employer pays for it. The point is this family buys their own insurance, a high deductible plan that they can't keep because Obamacare requires additional coverage which makes it more expensive. Tripled their cost in fact and will not permit them to keep the plan they liked.

Yes and the insurance industry is the beneficiary I find the cost amazing $1000 a month for coverage, they certainly need to shop around but I suspect this would be an unintended outcome and points to the need for regulation of the industry

I guess they don't like there insurance anymore. But what I find puzzling is that Humana, is in the Kentucky Exchange. (As is my current provider).

Humana, Anthem, UnitedHealthcare among Kentucky health benefit exchange participants (Video) - Louisville - Business First (http://www.bizjournals.com/louisville/blog/health-care/2013/09/kentucky-health-exchange-draws-five.html)

So while it's a bad story, a lot I think may be left out. I have questions before this rises to catastrophic. Just curious, if the exchanges are a better deal, and the companies are the same, what's the big deal?

I mean sounds fishy to me a company would send such a notice to an existing customer, then advertise the same plan at half the costs on the exchange. Not doubting the article, but not enough info to be outraged either. Do you have more?

I guess they don't like there insurance anymore. But what I find puzzling is that Humana, is in the Kentucky Exchange. (As is my current provider).

Humana, Anthem, UnitedHealthcare among Kentucky health benefit exchange participants (Video) - Louisville - Business First (http://www.bizjournals.com/louisville/blog/health-care/2013/09/kentucky-health-exchange-draws-five.html)

So while its a bad story, a lot I think may be left out. I have questions before this rises to catastrophic. Just curious, if the exchanges are a better deal, and the companies are the same, what's the big deal?

I mean sounds fishy to me a company would send such a notice to an existing customer, then advertise the same plan at half the costs on the exchange. Not doubting the article, but not enough info to be outraged either. Do you have more?

Tal the cost is probably the unsubsidised cost, not sure what you have to do to get a subsidy but there seem to be big differences between subsidised and unsubsidised costs

What should have been done is to open the market and make it a national market with greater competition

Tal the cost is probably the unsubsidised cost, not sure what you have to do to get a subsidy but there seem to be big differences between subsidised and unsubsidised costs

What should have been done is to open the market and make it a national market with greater competition
Become a registered democrat and a contributor to the Democrat party... and you qualify for a subsidy... they will use the IRS to identify them to reward.

What should have been done is to open the market and make it a national market with greater competition

Well Geez how much more do the markets have to open up if the same BIG companies are in every freakin' state, and in case you are wondering, there are 50 freakin' states! Hell even the smaller ones are subsiduries of the big ones!

Now what??

Become a registered democrat and a contributor to the Democrat party...and you qualify for a subsidy....they will use the IRS to identify them to reward.

Most republicans are poor as church mice and are on food stamps or some other federal dole.

Most republicans are poor as church mice and are on food stamps or some other federal dole.

And precious few of them are dumb enough to want anything to do with Obamacare.

Commentary: Tough luck for the poor - Journal-Courier: Opinion (http://www.myjournalcourier.com/opinion/commentary-tough-luck-for-the-poor/article_8fd5dc78-24d7-11e3-bc9f-0019bb30f31a.html)


The Republicans don't even have to pretend that they care about the economic plight of the majority. In Owsley County, Kentucky, over half the population gets food stamps, but this nearly all-white county voted 81 percent for Romney. Of the 254 counties whose number of food stamp users doubled since 2007, Romney won 213.

So tough luck for the poor. Republicans are trying to slash the programs which have allowed most people who fell into poverty during the recession to get out of it. And for the rest of the middle class, whose incomes are going nowhere, they can watch the very rich eat up more and more of our national wealth.

Maybe the trickle down will start tomorrow.

No comment on whose dumb and who ain't.

The dumb people want it... not even the people that dreamed this up want anything to do with it, they exempted themselves and everyone who works for them... a smart person would see that as proof of what crap it is.

I guess they don't like there insurance anymore. But what I find puzzling is that Humana, is in the Kentucky Exchange. (As is my current provider).

Humana, Anthem, UnitedHealthcare among Kentucky health benefit exchange participants (Video) - Louisville - Business First (http://www.bizjournals.com/louisville/blog/health-care/2013/09/kentucky-health-exchange-draws-five.html)

So while its a bad story, a lot I think may be left out. I have questions before this rises to catastrophic. Just curious, if the exchanges are a better deal, and the companies are the same, what's the big deal?

I mean sounds fishy to me a company would send such a notice to an existing customer, then advertise the same plan at half the costs on the exchange. Not doubting the article, but not enough info to be outraged either. Do you have more?




From your article:

The state health exchange, which Business First has reported on previously, is being broken up into regions, and not every provider is providing plans to all regions, Beshear said. But there will be competition in every region. Enrollment for the plans will begin on Oct. 1. The rates and plans were reviewed and approved through the Kentucky Department of Insurance.


That may explain it.

Commentary: Tough luck for the poor - Journal-Courier: Opinion (http://www.myjournalcourier.com/opinion/commentary-tough-luck-for-the-poor/article_8fd5dc78-24d7-11e3-bc9f-0019bb30f31a.html)



No comment on whose dumb and who ain't.

I guess you can't consider that Obama has put most of those people out of work since that area is Coal Country. SO how is it a surprise they are in an ecinomic disadvantage at this time.

So why are you surprised that there are many people who are suffering through the recession of 2007 and need assistance until things get better?

Why am I not surprised you blame Obama?

People aspire to get things back to the way it was under Bush... It would be a massive improvement.

Maybe you prospered under Bush, but America voted for Obama TWICE, and that just pisses you off to no end. Don't lie you hate it that the liberals and progressives have put the right wing down and reduced you to a loud group of malcontents wishing for the good old days of kicking butts and taking names of anybody who refused to be assimilated in your own image.

Nobody but a loony wants the Bush era back, and you are deluded if you think you can holler and scream and shoot your way to success. In the end you will be holed up in your own fortresses with 50 guns, and a TV stuck on Fox News, screaming to yourself about the good old days.

Maybe you prospered under Bush, but America voted for Obama TWICE, and that just pisses you off to no end. Don't lie you hate it that the liberals and progressives have put the right wing down and reduced you to a loud group of malcontents wishing for the good old days of kicking butts and taking names of anybody who refused to be assimilated in your own image.

Nobody but a loony wants the Bush era back, and you are deluded if you think you can holler and scream and shoot your way to success. In the end you will be holed up in your own fortresses with 50 guns, and a TV stuck on Fox News, screaming to yourself about the good old days.

Obama didn't have the majority of America vote for him... he only got the majority of the vote... by hook or by crook.

Just face the fact that Obama made everything worse than he found it... and stop trying to defend the indefensible.

THey country was doing far better under Bush than Obama... and incodently... if it wasn't for the libtard in the drive by media pushing Propaganda instead of facts... he wouldn't have gotten elected either time...

Because he only got what voites he did as a result of lies and deception.

What should have been done is to open the market and make it a national market with greater competition

We have a winner!! Exactly!

Well Geez how much more do the markets have to open up if the same BIG companies are in every freakin' state, and in case you are wondering, there are 50 freakin' states! Hell even the smaller ones are subsiduries of the big ones!

Now what???

... the other side of the coin is state and Federal mandated coverage . Well there is other stuff needing addressing like liability reform.. but mandated provisions in these plans make a big difference. The fact that Obamacare mandates even MORE coverage will guarantee price increases.

So why are you surprised that there are many people who are suffering thru the recession of 2007 and need assistance until things get better?

Why am I not surprised you blame Obama?

Is he or is he not trying to close down the coal industry ?

Hello again, tom:

Well there is other stuff needing addressing like liability reform Hmmmm... FIRST you think injured PATIENTS shouldn't get compensation from a doctor for RUINING their lives... Now, you want to take away EVERYBODY'S rights!!

You just don't like JUDGES judging, do you? You want to take away their ability to sentence people, and now you want to take away their ability to AWARD injured people.. You think people like Ted Cruz ought to be able to decide how much an injury is worth...

Nahhh... That's going to give your darling business's carte blanche to hurt as many people as they want... Nahhh... That ain't America..

Excon

is he or is he not trying to close down the coal industry ?

Natural gas, and oil is what's closing down the coal industry. And there is oil and gas in them thar hills. Why are the oil and gas industries keep the wells closed?

Natural gas, and oil is what's closing down the coal industry. And there is oil and gas in them thar hills. Why are the oil and gas industries keep the wells closed?

And the renegade EPA regulations by people with ZERO accountability to anyone has nothing to do with it?

Hello again, tom:
Hmmmm... FIRST you think injured PATIENTS shouldn't get compensation from a doctor for RUINING their lives... Now, you wanna take away EVERYBODY'S rights!!!

You just don't like JUDGES judging, do you? You wanna take away their ability to sentence people, and now you wanna take away their ability to AWARD injured people.. You think people like Ted Cruz ought to be able to decide how much an injury is worth....

Nahhh... That's gonna give your darling business's carte blanche to hurt as many people as they want... Nahhh... That ain't America..

excon

I'd like to see where I defended mandatory sentencing . And do you really think that liability insurance is not passed on in the form of higher fees... and is part of the reason for exploding health care costs ?

Everything is passed to the consumer except higher wages. If that's not an example of a broken business, and economic model, what is?

Hello again, tom:
Hmmmm... FIRST you think injured PATIENTS shouldn't get compensation from a doctor for RUINING their lives... Now, you wanna take away EVERYBODY'S rights!!!

You just don't like JUDGES judging, do you? You wanna take away their ability to sentence people, and now you wanna take away their ability to AWARD injured people.. You think people like Ted Cruz ought to be able to decide how much an injury is worth....

Nahhh... That's gonna give your darling business's carte blanche to hurt as many people as they want... Nahhh... That ain't America..

excon

Ex all he wants to do is put the ambulance chasers and scam artists out of business

And the renegade EPA regulations by people with ZERO accountability to anyone has nothing to do with it?

We get most of our electricity from coal-fired generators and the air is nice and clean here.

We get most of our electricity from coal-fired generators and the air is nice and clean here.

A very large percentage of this state (Virginia) relies on the Coal industry for jobs as well as electricity. And we have a far greater problem with all the liberal hot air than the coal fired plants or coal mines.

The White House is elated that rates reportedly are lower than expected (even though some states won't be able to calculate them until November), as in the rate INCREASES are lower than expected. When asked where the missing comparison was to current rates was Jay Carney gave this answer:


There were numerous projections about what these exchanges — which, by the way, did not exist before, including the multitude of plans that will not be available to consumers that did not, that were not in place before. So, obviously, this is not an apples-to-apples. It’s a, you know, apple full of worms compared to an apple that’s fresh and delicious…

Huh?

Not even Liberalland lovesObamacare... according to the 9-26-2013 Express, lower right, page 15 (a Washington comPost publication)... in 2010 Washington DC had 918 active primary care physicians reporting to the board... today there are only 453 that even spend more than 20 hours a week seeing patients at all.

For a population of a bit over 632,000

District of Columbia QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/11000.html)

They don't have it in their online version to link but its in their print copy today. Good luck finding a doctor.

The beauty of America is people can make choices. If doctors want to pick customers, let them. We have needed more doctors and nurses for years any way, and health care is a growth industry.

The beauty of America is people can make choices. If doctors want to pick and choose customers, let them. We have needed more doctors and nurses for years any way, and health care is a growth industry.

Obamacare offers no choices.

The beauty of America is people can make choices. If doctors want to pick and choose customers, let them. We have needed more doctors and nurses for years any way, and health care is a growth industry.

THis happened because of Obamacare... they were packing up and closing their offices rather than deal with the crap Obamacare is full of.

THey promised this was going to happen.. and here's proof it is.

Obama can claim responsibility for this. Hope he's proud.

That's a false statement, according to the state exchange websites I have visited. Obviously you have not. Start with Kentucky.

That's a false statement, according to the state exchange websites I have visited. Obviously you have not. Start with Kentucky.

Dream on... this was in today's newspaper... published by the Washington comPost which is a VERY liberal publication.

Hey.. you are one of the people that claim liberals never lie.. and the lame stream media tells the truth... well... its them that said this.

I understand a law that helps millions of people mostly poor isn't what's popular with you conservatives. But you guys have been crying about Obama care for years now.

Democrats worked with Republicans to make Medicare part D work, to bad the repubs refuse to do the same thing.

4 more days, and then we will see.

I understand a law that helps millions of people mostly poor isn't what's popular with you conservatives. But you guys have been crying about Obama care for years now.

Democrats worked with Republicans to make Medicare part D work, to bad the repubs refuse to do the same thing.

4 more days, and then we will see.

The chance to work with Republicans was when the Obamacare bill was being written.. But no... they had to be crooked and ram it through without a vote.

Obamacare offers no choices.

Yes, the NY Times pointed that out (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/obamacare-3-0-a-745977-88.html#post3556303) but apparently they know something the Times doesn't.

Hello again,
Obamacare offers no choices.Here are the Obamacare choices offered in MY state:

Qualified Health Plans Selected

The following insurance carriers were approved to sell health plans through Washington Healthplanfinder: (http://www.wahbexchange.org/news-resources/quality-health-coverage/)

BridgeSpan – King, Kitsap, Pierce, Skagit, Snohomish, Thurston, and Spokane

Community Health Plan of Washington – Adams, Benton, Chelan, Clark, Cowlitz, Douglas, Ferry, Franklin, Grant, Grays Harbor, King, Kitsap, Lewis, Okanogan, Pacific, Pend Oreille, Pierce, Skagit, Snohomish, Spokane, Stevens, Thurston, Wahkiakum, Walla Walla, Whatcom, Yakima

Coordinated Care – Adams, Benton, Chelan, Douglas, Franklin, Grant, Grays Harbor, Jefferson, King, Kitsap, Mason, Pierce, Skagit, Snohomish, Spokane, Thurston, Walla Walla, Yakima

Group Health Cooperative – Benton, Columbia, Franklin, Island, King, Kitsap, Kittitas, Lewis, Mason, Pierce, San Juan, Skagit, Snohomish, Spokane, Thurston, Walla Walla, Whatcom, Whitman, and Yakima

LifeWise Health Plan of Washington – All 39 counties
Molina Health Care of Washington – King, Pierce and Spokane

Premera Blue Cross – All counties except Clark

Kaiser Foundation Health Plan of the Northwest– Clark and

Cowlitz (Small Business and Individual Market)
Delta Dental of Washington, Kaiser Foundation Health Plan of the Northwest, LifeWise, Premera Blue Cross – All 39 counties (Pediatric Dental Only)

These health plans have been certified to meet state and federal requirements for health plans as well as standards developed by Washington Healthplanfinder.
Standard Plan Benefits

Starting in 2014, all health insurance plans are required to provide a certain level of standard benefits known as Essential Health Benefits. The federal Affordable Care requires that all health plans offered in the individual and small group markets must provide these items and services. These benefits fit into the following 10 categories:

Ambulatory patient services
Emergency services
Hospitalization
Maternity and newborn care
Mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment
Prescription drugs
Rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices
Laboratory services
Preventive and wellness services and chronic disease management
Pediatric services, including dental and vision care

Levels of Coverage

Washington Healthplanfinder will allow shoppers to find a plan that fits their needs and their budget by offering side-by-side comparisons of health plans based on a variety of factors such as cost, quality and physician networks. Plan options will be broken down into metal tiers including Gold, Silver and Bronze based on the level of coverage they provide:

Gold Plans: Gold plans cover 80 percent of the cost of essential health benefits, while the patient pays 20 percent.
Silver Plans: Silver plans cover 70 percent of the cost of essential health benefits, while the patient pays 30 percent.
Bronze Plans: Bronze plans cover 60 percent of the cost of essential health benefits, while the patient pay 40 percent.

All plans on Washington Healthplanfinder will have new limits on out-of-pocket costs, including deductibles and co-payments, of $6,350 for an individual and $12,700 for a family.

"A "catastrophic" plan will also be offered. This is a type of health care plan only available through Washington Healthplanfinder for individuals under age 30. This type of plan generally offers the least coverage with the lowest monthly premiums.

Excon

There are 49 other states and several US territories that aren't part of Washington State.

THe Huffington Post the ultra liberal ews outlet... even says costs will significanly rise for most.

Obamacare Will Cause Medical Claims Costs To Jump 32 Percent: Study (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/obamacare-medical-claims-costs_n_2956986.html)

WASHINGTON (AP) — Insurance companies will have to pay out an average of 32 percent more for medical claims on individual health policies under President Barack Obama's overhaul, the nation's leading group of financial risk analysts has estimated.

That's likely to increase premiums for at least some Americans buying individual plans.

The report by the Society of Actuaries could turn into a big headache for the Obama administration at a time when many parts of the country remain skeptical about the Affordable Care Act.

While some states will see medical claims costs per person decline, the report concluded the overwhelming majority will see double-digit increases in their individual health insurance markets, where people purchase coverage directly from insurers.

The disparities are striking. By 2017, the estimated increase would be 62 percent for California, about 80 percent for Ohio, more than 20 percent for Florida and 67 percent for Maryland. Much of the reason for the higher claims costs is that sicker people are expected to join the pool, the report said.

The report did not make similar estimates for employer plans, the mainstay for workers and their families. That's because the primary impact of Obama's law is on people who don't have coverage through their jobs.

The administration questions the design of the study, saying it focused only on one piece of the puzzle and ignored cost relief strategies in the law such as tax credits to help people afford premiums and special payments to insurers who attract an outsize share of the sick. The study also doesn't take into account the potential price-cutting effect of competition in new state insurance markets that will go live on Oct. 1, administration officials said.




At a White House briefing on Tuesday, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said some of what passes for health insurance today is so skimpy it can't be compared to the comprehensive coverage available under the law. "Some of these folks have very high catastrophic plans that don't pay for anything unless you get hit by a bus," she said. "They're really mortgage protection, not health insurance."

A prominent national expert, recently retired Medicare chief actuary Rick Foster, said the report does "a credible job" of estimating potential enrollment and costs under the law, "without trying to tilt the answers in any particular direction."

"Having said that," Foster added, "actuaries tend to be financially conservative, so the various assumptions might be more inclined to consider what might go wrong than to anticipate that everything will work beautifully." Actuaries use statistics and economic theory to make long-range cost projections for insurance and pension programs sponsored by businesses and government. The society is headquartered near Chicago.

Kristi Bohn, an actuary who worked on the study, acknowledged it did not attempt to estimate the effect of subsidies, insurer competition and other factors that could mitigate cost increases. She said the goal was to look at the underlying cost of medical care.

"Claims cost is the most important driver of health care premiums," she said.

"We don't see ourselves as a political organization," Bohn added. "We are trying to figure out what the situation at hand is."

On the plus side, the report found the law will cover more than 32 million currently uninsured Americans when fully phased in. And some states — including New York and Massachusetts — will see double-digit declines in costs for claims in the individual market.

Uncertainty over costs has been a major issue since the law passed three years ago, and remains so just months before a big push to cover the uninsured gets rolling Oct. 1. Middle-class households will be able to purchase subsidized private insurance in new marketplaces, while low-income people will be steered to Medicaid and other safety net programs. States are free to accept or reject a Medicaid expansion also offered under the law.

Obama has promised that the new law will bring costs down. That seems a stretch now. While the nation has been enjoying a lull in health care inflation the past few years, even some former administration advisers say a new round of cost-curbing legislation will be needed.

Bohn said the study overall presents a mixed picture.

Millions of now-uninsured people will be covered as the market for directly purchased insurance more than doubles with the help of government subsidies. The study found that market will grow to more than 25 million people. But costs will rise because spending on sicker people and other high-cost groups will overwhelm an influx of younger, healthier people into the program.

Some of the higher-cost cases will come from existing state high-risk insurance pools. Those people will now be able to get coverage in the individual insurance market, since insurance companies will no longer be able to turn them down. Other people will end up buying their own plans because their employers cancel coverage. While some of these individuals might save money for themselves, they will end up raising costs for others.

Part the reason for the wide disparities in the study is that states have different populations and insurance rules. In the relatively small number of states where insurers were already restricted from charging higher rates to older, sicker people, the cost impact is less.

"States are starting from different starting points, and they are all getting closer to one another," said Bohn.

The study also did not model the likely patchwork results from some states accepting the law's Medicaid expansion while others reject it. It presented estimates for two hypothetical scenarios in which all states either accept or reject the expansion.

Larry Levitt, an insurance expert with the nonpartisan Kaiser Family Foundation, reviewed the report and said the actuaries need to answer more questions.

"I'd generally characterize it as providing useful background information, but I don't think it's complete enough to be treated as a projection," Levitt said. The conclusion that employers with sicker workers would drop coverage is "speculative," he said.

Another caveat: The Society of Actuaries contracted Optum, a subsidiary of UnitedHealth Group, to do the number-crunching that drives the report. United also owns the nation's largest health insurance company. Bohn said the study reflects the professional conclusions of the society, not Optum or its parent company.

Hello again, Here are the Obamacare choices offered in MY state:


excon
Good thing you don't live in California
Second major health insurer pulls out of California market (http://www.insurance.ca.gov/0400-news/0100-press-releases/2013/release053-13.cfm)
The Slimes supports my case
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/health/lower-health-insurance-premiums-to-come-at-cost-of-fewer-choices.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

good thing you don't live in California
Second major health insurer pulls out of California market (http://www.insurance.ca.gov/0400-news/0100-press-releases/2013/release053-13.cfm)
the Slimes supports my case
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/health/lower-health-insurance-premiums-to-come-at-cost-of-fewer-choices.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
They'll be back.

The Treasury Inspector General has found that the IRS cannot account for $67 million of Obamacare funds.

According to the report: “Specifically, the IRS did not account for or attempt to quantify approximately $67 million [from the slush fund] of indirect ACA costs incurred for Fiscal Years 2010 through 2012.”
Americans for Tax Reform : IRS Watchdog: $67 Million Missing from Obamacare Slush Fund (http://www.atr.org/irs-watchdog-million-missing-obamacare-slush-a7886)
The report also found other spending abuses, including using the money for travel that was unjustified.

They'll be back.

That was Arnold - The Governator... not the insurance company.

That was Arnold - The Governator......not the insurance company.
And they'll be kicking themselves too.

The Treasury Inspector General has found that the IRS cannot account for $67 million of Obamacare funds.

Americans for Tax Reform : IRS Watchdog: $67 Million Missing from Obamacare Slush Fund (http://www.atr.org/irs-watchdog-million-missing-obamacare-slush-a7886)
The report also found other spending abuses, including using the money for travel that was unjustified.

I'm surprised it's that little... someone in the IRS is off their game.

And they'll be kicking themselves too.

You can't MAKE a business sell something at a loss if they don't want to... not in this country anyway.

You can't MAKE a business sell something at a loss if they don't want to.... not in this country anyway.
Lots and lots of customers will be roaming around.

Lots and lots of customers will be roaming around.

That remains to be seen.

But then places that operate like Payday loan places always swoop in to screw people when they are given half a chance.

http://www.insurance.ca.gov/0400-news/0100-press-releases/2013/release053-13.cfm


"One of the factors I believe contributed to this decision, even if the two companies are disinclined to acknowledge it, is the special tax break that California law gives to Anthem Blue Cross and Blue Shield, which has allowed and continues to allow those two companies to avoid paying $100 million in state taxes a year," added Commissioner Jones. "Aetna and United Healthcare don't get the special tax break provided to Anthem Blue Cross and Blue Shield, and so they faced a major competitive disadvantage in California."

More from a link of Tom's link,

Aetna Health Insurance Rate Increases for Small Employers are Unreasonable (http://www.insurance.ca.gov/0400-news/0100-press-releases/release031-12.cfm)


Insurance Commissioner Dave Jones announced today that the Department of Insurance has determined Aetna's most recent quarterly health insurance rate increase for small employers to be unreasonable.

Commissioner Jones requested that Aetna withdraw its April 1 health insurance rate increases for small employers after finding the proposed rates unreasonable. The Commissioner does not have the authority to reject excessive health insurance rate increases. Despite the request from the Department, Aetna has decided to implement the 1.8 percent average rate increases, which total an average 8 percent increase annually (with some receiving up to a 21.4 percent annual increase) and an average 30.3 percent increase over 24 months for small employers with Aetna's PPO health insurance policies. Aetna files rate increases quarterly on its small employer policies.

After a thorough review of Aetna's rate filing, the Department's actuaries found that Aetna made projections about medical cost increases that were not supported by Aetna's actual claims experience. The Department also determined that the Aetna subsidiary selling health insurance in California made a 27.7 percent profit in 2011, paid $1.7 billion in dividends to its parent company, is increasing rates in excess of the U.S. Bureau of Labor's medical cost inflation index, and with this most recent increase, Aetna is hitting its California small employer customers with an average increase of 30.3 percent over the last 24 months.

The right hollers Obama Care is a disaster, but it seems so is the business practice of the insurance companies. But I have been saying that for years, despite Tom wanting to go back to those good old days of insurance company gouging and extraction.

Second major health insurer pulls out of California market (http://www.insurance.ca.gov/0400-news/0100-press-releases/2013/release053-13.cfm)



More from a link of Tom's link,

Aetna Health Insurance Rate Increases for Small Employers are Unreasonable (http://www.insurance.ca.gov/0400-news/0100-press-releases/release031-12.cfm)



The right hollers Obama Care is a disaster, but it seems so is the business practice of the insurance companies. But I have been saying that for years, despite To wanting to go back to those good old days of insurance company gouging and extraction.


The insurance companies all look like a charity compaired to the gouging that takes place by the government.

Here are the Obamacare choices offered in MY state:
I'm in 'region 2' (2014 health plans and rates (http://www.insurance.wa.gov/your-insurance/health-insurance/individuals-families/health-plans-rates/index.html)) - which offers like 9 or 10 choices wow! - EXCEPT - for some reason my county has been excluded from all but two. Hmmm Great.

You see... an insurance company decided to not participate in the charade in Kalifornia... and Tal blames it on the insurance company ,and not the mandates and the blatant crony favoritism that led to that decision.

Meanwhile... remember when the emperor said that if you like your plan and your doctor ,you can keep them ? Well Michelle Malkin has been posting the cancellation notices that have been 'tweeted' to her .
Hey, know what you get to 'keep' with Obamacare? Cancellation notices | Twitchy (http://twitchy.com/2013/09/22/hey-know-what-you-get-to-keep-with-obamacare-cancellation-notices/)

Never mind the right wing sound machine, we will see how the sign up goes the next 6 months.

Professional Maintenance ,a janitorial company has cut jobs due to Obamacare... So the SEIU has gone on strike.
http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/15662/strike_ohio_janitors_demand_a_fair_labor_contract/
Across the nation similar job reductions are happening... all related to the upcoming implementation of Obamacare (T- 3 Days ).

Last week at the AFL-CIO convention in Los Angeles , this was a major theme. A parade of union bosses took the podium to complain about Obamacare impacts . By voice affirmation ,the AFL-CIO voted to demand major changes in the law despite furious lobbying by the Obots to table the resolution.
White House calling union leaders ahead of vote on ObamaCare resolution - The Hill's Healthwatch (http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/321707-white-house-calling-union-leaders-on-obamacare-resolution)
Prior to the law's passage, the emperor repeatedly promised it would not harm existing employer provided insurance.That was the big lie necessary to sell it to the nation.
Back then all the unions supported the plan. But as Madame Mimi warned... the bill had to be passed to find out what was in it. Of course back then ,the unions were all gung-ho in favor of the law . As AFT President Randi Weingarten said, “Congress and the White House have now given Americans what they need and deserve.” Well it isn't exacly what the nation needs . But for some like Weingarten ,it's certainly what they deserve. Oh that buyers remorse !

The resolution reads :
The ACA should be administered in a manner that preserves the high-quality health coverage multi-employer plans have provided to union families for decades and, if this is not possible, we will demand the ACA be amended by Congress.

Of course they also threw in their preferred remedy demanding a socialized ,single payer, universal ,nanny state run health care system. How that gets them to that goal of preserving their gold standard union plans is beyond me .

socialized ,single payer, universal ,nanny state run health care systemYou realize that you're the only industrialized country that doesn't have that, right? No matter how many pejoratives you attach to it most countries feel that universal health care is the way to go.

Good for you and them... the entitlement state will collapse from the weight of the obligations shortly . I can't tell you when ;but I'm postitive our children will see it and bear the burden of repairing their birthright squandered by their parents .

You realize that you're the only industrialized country that doesn't have that, right? No matter how many pejoratives you attach to it most countries feel that universal health care is the way to go.

There is a certain efficiency in a single payer system, but who needs efficiency when you can have freedom to pay more. You want to stop insurance companies gouging then you take insurance companies out of basic insurance, let them provide the top end and the extras. Everybody wins