Back on another thread I suggested that the left thinks many of us, such as poor people, minorities, women and conservatives of any stripe, are too stupid and helpless to do anything on our own.

Voter ID? Can't do it because poor people are too stupid and helpless to get a free ID.

We have to kill the first amendment and buy every women's BC because college educated women are too stupid and helpless to find a $9.00 supply at Target. And don't forget poor Julia, she can't exist without Obama's help in every stage of her life.

Welfare? No more making able-bodied people even try to make a living because they're too stupid and helpless to better themselves.

Start a business? Be successful? What do we know? The community organizer in chief says you didn't do it on your own? Jesus, how can anyone have the gall to think they made it on their own? We, the omnipotent, benevolent government did that for you!


President Obama said in a speech at the weekend that governments and not individuals create jobs (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2174160/Obama-says-wealthy-ARENT-responsible-success.html#ixzz20tE0Ncsn), telling entrepreneurs: 'If you've got a business - you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen.'

He added: 'You didn't get there on your own. I'm always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart.'

All I can say is, what an arrogant, ignorant a$$. Hopefully it's going to bite him in it.

So, how many of you can't get by without Obama's help? Ex?

In the President's 'through the looking glass' world ;the risk taker is the free rider .
Yes ;where would a successful business owner be without the taxman ,government regulator and bureaucrat?

Actually the President was parroting
A similar comment made earlier by Elizabeth Warren ( No. There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own — nobody.) She of course benefitted from her imaginary blond hair blue eyed native American ancestors.Did it ever occur to either of them that without the people who build businesses we would not have the means to build the infrastructure ?

I have worked in 2 start ups .My bosses could've been the same person . 15 hr days;going home and working the phones with customers until they virtually collapsed ;and then getting up early to open up the shop .Millions of small businesses began that way .

Of course the fact that a teacher taught you to read, means that everything you do from that moment on is due to the collective, not your individual efforts. And it is for that reason that nothing you own is actually yours.
Therefore, if the govt should demand that you surrender some of this property(wealth ,whatever ); that isn't really yours in the first place;... You have no right to object..

Yes and even though (some) of my teachers taught, I did the work, I earned the grades, no one did my schoolwork or took my tests for me.

It might be a Good Thing to quote President Obama's comments in context -- "If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business — you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."

President Obama's point is: Prosperous Americans, even those who have generated wealth through their own labor, should thank teachers, police officers, construction workers, and those in similar professions, for their efforts in helping them achieve such opulence. And in expressing their gratitude, they should be happy to pay more in taxes.

"You built a factory out there? Good for you. But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police-forces and fire-forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory — and hire someone to protect against this — because of the work the rest of us did.

Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea. God bless — keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is, you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along."

WG's conclusion: We are not characters in an Ayn Rand novel, but are members of a living, breathing community who work together for the common good.

Thanks for the context but it changes nothing on my point.

"If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen."

How insulting.

And he didn't. There was a whole long line of people who made it possible for him to be a success. He didn't invent venture capitalism or print the first dollar bill. The very fact that he can sign his name means he got help from someone somewhere along the line.

It might be a Good Thing to quote President Obama's comments in context -- "If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business — you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."

President Obama's point is: Prosperous Americans, even those who have generated wealth through their own labor, should thank teachers, police officers, construction workers, and those in similar professions, for their efforts in helping them achieve such opulence. And in expressing their gratitude, they should be happy to pay more in taxes.

"You built a factory out there? Good for you. But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police-forces and fire-forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory — and hire someone to protect against this — because of the work the rest of us did.

Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea. God bless — keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is, you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along."

WG's conclusion: We are not characters in an Ayn Rand novel, but are members of a living, breathing community who work together for the common good.

Excellent post. Thank you for putting it all in context.

And he didn't. There was a whole long line of people who made it possible for him to be a success. He didn't invent venture capitalism or print the first dollar bill. The very fact that he can sign his name means he got help from someone somewhere along the line.

"You didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen."

You're dancing around it and that changes nothing.

Hello:

A couple years ago, I drove the Baha Peninsula... It was beautiful. I wanted to move and start a restaurant.. They don't have ANY good American food...

But, I decided NOT to do it because there weren't any suppliers, there weren't any roads, and there wasn't any electricity. Now, I COULD have done it anyway, because I'm really smart... But, I'm NOT smart enough to overcome THOSE obstacles... Nobody is.

That is what Obama was saying. I guess you could call ME an arrogant a$$ for thinking I needed a road to my place... But, as usual, you guys really don't understand business.

excon

And the reason for your success is the road some benevolent government put there .It had nothing to do with the fact that you took the risk to build a business from nothing . You should find his comments insulting .

By extension .Does it mean if someone isn't a successful business person that they aren't getting enough from the government ? Maybe that explains Solyndra . They just didn't get enough government assistance.

Funny how no one apparently bothered to read the sourced article because business leaders are the ones pointing out how irresponsible and out of touch his remarks are.


America's leading small business association has slammed Barack Obama for showing 'an utter lack of understanding' of the country's entrepreneurs when he told them: 'If you've got a business - you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen.'

In a hard-hitting statement to Mail Online, the National Federation of Independent Businesses (NFIB) president Dan Danne said: 'What a disappointment to hear President Obama's revealing comments challenging the significance of America's entrepreneurs.

Mr Danne added: 'His unfortunate remarks over the weekend show an utter lack of understanding and appreciation for the people who take a huge personal risk and work endless hours to start a business and create jobs.'

...

An NFIB spokesman added: 'I'm sure every small-business owner who took a second mortgage on their home, maxed out their credit cards or borrowed money from their own retirement savings to start their business disagrees strongly with President Obama's claim. They know that hard work does matter.

'Every small business is not indebted to the government or some other benefactor. If anything, small businesses are historically an economic and job-creating powerhouse in spite of the government.'

The NFIB was founded in 1943 and has some 350,000 members. It is officially a non-partisan organisation but tends to contribute heavily to Republican candidates. In 2010, 25 of its members, all republicans, were elected to Congress.

David Chavern, executive vice-president and chief operating officer of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, said that the basic idea behind Obama’s comments, and other similar sentiments expressed by allies, 'is really objectionable and offensive.'

'The problem with the Obama administration’s view, he wrote in a blog post, was that ‘it only looks at the good outcomes’ rather than what went before.

Mr Chavern wrote: ‘Success is apparently a collective effort - but where was that "collective" during the periods of risk-taking and failure? The vast majority of businesses fail. Period.

He added: 'Every day millions of people put their lives, savings, houses and families on the line and work 20 hours a day just to grab their small slice of the American dream. Where is the collective when all of this is going on? And if the collective is really responsible for success, how come everyone isn’t successful?

But I get it, you guys share Obama's collective vision. So how about it, "if the collective is really responsible for success, how come everyone isn’t successful?"

And the reason for your success is the road some benevolent government put there.
I and my tax dollars are part of that "benevolent government." I helped Romney get where he is.

By extension .Does it mean if someone isn't a successful business person that they aren't getting enough from the government ?
Nope. That person failed because he didn't correctly use the tools at his disposal and let himself get in the way of his own success.

An NFIB spokesman

This NFIB?

In 2010, 25 of its members, all Republican, were elected to the 112th Congress. A number of them, such as Rand Paul, Jeff Duncan, Paul Gosar and Kristi Noem, are affiliated with or endorsed by the Tea Party movement. Well of course they would say bad things. LOL.

This NFIB?
Well of course they would say bad things. LOL.

As usual you rely on fallacies, attacking the source instead of the argument. Prove his argument wrong.

As usual you rely on fallacies, attacking the source instead of the argument. Prove his argument wrong.Hello Steve:

It's easy. You can't build a factory in the middle of nowhere. If you think you can, then it's YOU who believes in fantasy.

Now, if you want me to prove what your DISTORTION is, I can't - because it's a DISTORTION.

excon

I realize that some industries can't exist without the government's help. Heck, they can't exist WITH the government's help such as Beacon Power,
SpectraWatt, Eastern Energy, Evergreen Solar, Solyndra, Abound Solar...

You can't build a factory in the middle of nowhere? Sure you can. What, you think the government owns all the bulldozers, trucks, cranes, etc. You've never been to Texas have you? Everything is in the middle of nowhere.

You guys equate taxpayers funded projects like roads with government benevolence, you think we ought to be grateful the feds allow us to keep a portion of our own money.

Roads weren't magically created out of thin air, workers and business owners pay for it out of what they earn. No one else pays my share, I pay my own way and get along in spite of the government and I'll be damned if I'm going shut up while Obama says "somebody else made that happen." Wrong, bucko.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/179132_10151039977511575_2112823652_n.jpg

Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."


This is a flat out lie. It is a fabrication of his own making. It is too bad this puppet president doesn't have a clue as to how things work.

As far as building a business in the middle of nowhere. It does happen once it makes it past the government that stands in the way. After that the business is responsible to build the roads that carry the infrastructure to the communities at large. And so long as we are on the fair share kick. Should there be restrictions on those that don't contribute and don't pay their fair share? Why should they benefit because they are on the wrong end of the scale? Think about what is really being said. It's a load of bull. It is not and has not been how this American system has been operated.

This is a flat out lie. It is a fabrication of his own making. It is too bad this puppet president doesnt have a clue as to how things work.Hello dad:

I don't know. Check out the ARPANET (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET).. The Advanced Research Projects Agency Network (ARPANET) was the world's first operational packet switching network and the core network of a set that came to compose the global Internet. The network was funded by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) of the United States Department of Defense.

excon

Hello dad:

I dunno. Check out the ARPANET (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET).. The Advanced Research Projects Agency Network (ARPANET) was the world's first operational packet switching network and the core network of a set that came to compose the global Internet. The network was funded by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) of the United States Department of Defense.

excon

Yes it was and Im well aware of that. After its invention it was turned over to universities to connect around the world to share information closer to real time. Business was banned from the internet. It wasn't until much later that the stirrings of business began to infiltrate the net. At first it was just to serve the people not to sell you something. It was basic information and drivers you could download. Then the next step that began the inroads was voip. That is when business started to step in and pour money into the infrastructure of the internet. From there video conferencing was born. After that the rest is history. Im well aware because I lived it from the baby shoes it once was having access at several major universities To helping some of today's major players get on board. You can thank Ma Bell for many of the major success stories as they held much of it together in the early days until they were split up.

Yep, it originated in the private sector and the private sector built it using taxpayer dollars, of which I contribute my fair share. The Defense Dept stole the guy that thought it up from the private sector and the company he left got the bid to build it. Do you even read your own articles?

Yes it was and Im well aware of that. After its invention it was turned over to universities to connect around the world to share information closer to real time. Business was banned from the internet. It wasnt until much later that the stirrings of business began to infiltrate the net. At first it was just to serve the people not to sell you something. It was basic information and drivers you could download. Then the next step that began the inroads was voip. That is when business started to step in and pour money into the infrastructure of the internet. From there video conferencing was born. After that the rest is history. Im well aware because I lived it from the baby shoes it once was having access at several major universities To helping some of todays major players get on board. You can thank Ma Bell for many of the major sucess stories as they held much of it together in the early days until they were split up.
Almost correct. Commerce and advertising happened way before VOIP or video conferencing. That makes sense since voip and video require precious bandwidth and 24k banner ads did not. I lived it, sold HTML specs, browsed it during the university hook up days etc...
Business almost ruined the internet for a while. Until they found a ways to monetize it.

Almost correct. Commerce and advertising happened way before VOIP or video conferencing. That makes sense since voip and video require precious bandwidth and 24k banner ads did not. I lived it, sold HTML specs, browsed it during the university hook up days etc...
Business almost ruined the internet for a while. Until they found a ways to monetize it.

Business is still ruining the internet today. Huge companies like Google are marching all over personal rights of privacy and trying to make inroads into homes on a daily basis.

VOIP started a very long time ago. It matched computer voice to actual switching stations so you could make calls through the internet and only required 8k of bandwidth. The modern improved version of voip takes up a bit more room and normally uses a special modem to digitize the signal in a stand alone format. Before it was always computer dependent.

Netscape (yes I said it) to me was one of the best browser formats ever made. With their add on of netmeeting began the video link for corporate users. Early models of video over the net included cuseeme made by cornell university.

The old days were so much fun. Lol

Netscape (yes I said it) to me was one of the best browser formats ever made. With thier add on of netmeeting began the video link for corporate users. Early models of video over the net included cuseeme made by cornell university.

The old days were so much fun. lolAgreed. I remember Netscape with much fondness as well. After Cornell voip development seemed to have been taken over by the israelis for some reason.

Agreed. I remember Netscape with much fondness as well. After Cornell voip development seemed to have been taken over by the israelis for some reason.

Its because they bought ichat. The chat program with the flower. Remember this is before Yahoo and MSN. They took it over because they realized that the information super highway was a give away to secrets. What better way to monitor then to own the company that provides the service??

Today the internet as we know it is nothing it started to be and is constantly evolving process. Just wait and see what it looks like in 20 years.

Back to the original statement I had made. I think if you remember right one of the polices in place when the internet was originated was the corporate entities were banned from it because it was thought they would spoil the well. The well of knowlage.


P.S. and disclaimer:

I am not nor have I ever been Al Gore :)

Back to the OP. So, how many of you can't get by without Obama's help?

Back to the OP. So, how many of you can't get by without Obama's help?

OK, Back to the OP.. wait you are the OP. :)


We can all agree that we need to have community support to maintain the infrastructure and society as a whole. None of us has pockets that deep as to support everything.

Looking at the question from my viewpoint. This president isn't doing me any favors by how he is trying to run / ruin this country. I am thankful to my fellow citizens and my community for what is around me. But as far as holding the line on what I have and making improvements in my life that has nothing to do with the president. It has to do with personal goals and opportunities that I may find available. Everyone is responsible for decisions that they make through life and the changing of presidents is just one of the decisions that are faced along the way.

40720

They just didn't get enough government assistance.

Tom you are ranting again, there are good investments and bad investments but industry isn't going to invest in technology unless the return is assured, so sometimes government gives them a push, sometimes that is military and sometimes it is not. It is easy to pick losers Tom and very hard to pick winners. Let me ask how is the Joint strike Fighter program going, why aren't you ranting against that?

Hello again,

Yes, let's talk about the OP. Wouldn't it be nice if we talked about what the candidates ACTUAL position IS on these issues, instead of a GOTCHA couple of words taken out of context??

BOTH sides do it. The problem for YOU and ME, is WE buy into it, post the BS, and challenge each other to justify it. Well, I got better things to do.

excon

Tom you are ranting again, there are good investments and bad investments but industry isn't going to invest in technology unless the return is assured, so sometimes government gives them a push, sometimes that is military and sometimes it is not. It is easy to pick losers Tom and very hard to pick winners. let me ask how is the Joint strike Fighter program going, why arn't you ranting against that?

I'm pretty sure I've posted comment on that . Being a huge fan of the F-22 Raptor ;I have taken the position that the F-35 Lightning is a huge waste of money .

Hello again,

Yes, let's talk about the OP. Wouldn't it be nice if we talked about what the candidates ACTUAL position IS on these issues, instead of a GOTCHA couple of words taken out of context???

BOTH sides do it. The problem for YOU and ME, is WE buy into it, post the BS, and challenge each other to justify it. Well, I got better things to do.

excon

As opposed to taking Pennsylvania state House Republican Mike Turzai's comments out of context .

40720

Or parking your yacht in Rhode Island instead of paying taxes to the state you represent.

Why is it do you think people put their money elsewhere? Hmmm??

As opposed to taking Pennsylvania state House Republican Mike Turzai's comments out of context .Hello again, tom:

All I heard him say, is what I reported. If it was out of context, you could have shown me. Better yet, show me now. I'm a reasonable fellow. It's just that I'm NOT interested in discussing WORDS. Policy is MUCH more interesting...

But, if that guy said SOMETHING else in that statement, I'll retract and apologize.

excon

Hello again, tom:

All I heard him say, is what I reported. If it was out of context, you could have shown me. Better yet, show me now. I'm a reasonable fellow. It's just that I'm NOT interested in discussing WORDS. Policy is MUCH more interesting...

But, if that guy said SOMETHING else in that statement, I'll retract and apologize.

excon

Read your article. All of it.

Why is it do you think people put their money elsewhere? Hmmm?????To avoid paying taxes?

Read your article. All of it.Hello again, Steve:

I did. I read it VERY CAREFULLY. (http://www.politicspa.com/turzai-voter-id-law-means-romney-can-win-pa/37153/). I saw NOTHING about a LONGER statement Tirzai made that said something OTHER than what I reported... Oh, I saw where his SPOKESMAN said he meant something else. But, I did NOT see a statement where his words were taken out of context...

If it does, PLEASE show me.

excon

To avoid paying taxes?

To avoid being punished for success.

Hello again, Steve:

I did. I read it VERY CAREFULLY. (http://www.politicspa.com/turzai-voter-id-law-means-romney-can-win-pa/37153/). I saw NOTHING about a LONGER statement Tirzai made that said something OTHER than what I reported... Oh, I saw where his SPOKESMAN said he meant something else. But, I did NOT see a statement where his words were taken out of context...

If it does, PLEASE show me.

excon

I didn't say it was taken out of context, I believe I've said something to the effect of you're reading things into it that just aren't there and that's what the spokesman explained. Not allowing dead people and dogs to vote makes it fair.

I didn't say it was taken out of context, I believe I've said something to the effect of you're reading things into it that just aren't there and that's what the spokesman explained.Hello again, Steve:

Yeah, the spokesman TRIED to tell me what I heard.. But, I HEARD what I HEARD... And, I reported to you EXACTLY what I heard.. I even showed a tape of him saying it. His meaning is CLEAR. It was NOT taken out of context.

Now, you may believe that you didn't hear what you heard. But, I can TELL what I heard, from what I DIDN'T.

excon

Or the fact that routinely ,in some precincts in Philadelphia ,the turn out exceeds 100% of the registered voters .

To avoid being punished for success.
So Kerry was doing the right thing then.
Paying taxes is a punishment is your view?

Do you understand the difference between reasonable and punitive?

Do you understand the difference between reasonable and punitive?
Yes. What do you want to know about that?

There's nothing you could teach me about it.

This is why Obama's remarks are so offensive...


Who else, Mr. President? (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-met-kass-0718-20120718,0,2313230.column)
John Kass

July 18, 2012

When President Barack Obama hauled off and slapped American small-business owners in the mouth the other day, I wanted to dream of my father.

But I didn't have to close my eyes to see my dad. I could do it with my eyes open.

All I had to do was think of the driveway of our home, and my dad's car gone before dawn, that old white Chrysler with a push-button transmission. It always started, but there was a hole in the floor and his feet got wet in the rain. So he patched it with concrete mix and kept on driving it to the little supermarket he ran with my Uncle George.

He'd return home long after dark, physically and mentally exhausted, take a plate of food, talk with us for a few minutes, then flop in that big chair in front of the TV. Even before his cigarette was out, he'd begin to snore.

The next day he'd wake up and do it again. Day after day, decade after decade. Weekdays and weekends, no vacations, no time to see our games, no money for extras, not even for McDonald's. My dad and Uncle George, and my mom and my late Aunt Mary, killing themselves in their small supermarket on the South Side of Chicago.

There was no federal bailout money for us. No Republican corporate welfare. No Democratic handouts. No bipartisan lobbyists working the angles. No Tony Rezkos. No offshore accounts. No Obama bucks.

Just two immigrant brothers and their families risking everything, balancing on the economic high wire, building a business in America. They sacrificed, paid their bills, counted pennies to pay rent and purchase health care and food and not much else. And for their troubles they were muscled by the politicos, by the city inspectors and the chiselers and the weasels, all those smiling extortionists who held the government hammer over all of our heads.

I thought about this after I heard what Obama told a campaign crowd the other day, speaking about business owners and why they were successful.

"You didn't get there on your own," Obama said. "I'm always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."

If you've got a business, you didn't build that? Somebody else made that happen?

Somebody else, Mr. President? Who, exactly? Government?

One of my earliest memories as a boy at the store was that of the government men coming from City Hall. One was tall and beefy. The other was wiry. They wanted steaks.

We didn't eat red steaks at home or yellow bananas. We took home the brown bananas and the brown steaks because we couldn't sell them. But the government men liked the big, red steaks, the fat rib-eyes two to a shrink-wrapped package. You could put 20 or so in a shopping bag.

"Thanks, Greek," they'd say.

That was government.

We didn't go to movies or out to restaurants. Everything went into the business. Uncle George and dad never bought what they could not afford. The store employed people, and the workers fed their families and educated their children and put them through college. They were good people, all of them. We worked together and worked hard, but none worked harder than the bosses.

It's the same story with so many other businesses in America, immigrants and native-born. The entrepreneurs risk everything, their homes, their children's college funds, their hearts, all for a chance at the dream: independence, and a small business of their own.

Most often, they fail and fall to the ground without a government parachute. But some get up and start again.

When I was grown and gone from home, my parents finally managed to save a little money. After all those years of hard work and denying themselves things, they had enough to buy a place in Florida and a fishing boat in retirement. Dad died only a few years later. You wouldn't call them rich. But Obama might.

Obama's changed. Gone is that young knight drawing the sword from the stone, selling Hopium to the adoring media, preaching an end to the broken politics of the past. These days, he wears a new presidential persona: the multimillionaire with the Chicago clout, playing the class warrior, fighting for that second term.

And he offers an American dream much different from my father's. Open your eyes and you can see it too. He stands there at the front of the mob, in his shirt sleeves, swinging that government hammer, exhorting the crowd to use its votes and take what it wants.

Like I said, most people succeed in America IN SPITE OF government, not because of it. Unless you're an Obama crony that is... (http://www.buzzfeed.com/mhastings/obama-official-was-like-a-hooker-dropped-into-a-p)

Hello Steve:

So, why don't you get mad at stuff he DID say? Getting mad at stuff he DIDN'T say will raise your blood pressure.

excon

Another business that the government built.

Amonix closes North Las Vegas solar plant after 14 months, heavy federal subsidies - Business - ReviewJournal.com (http://www.lvrj.com/business/amonix-closes-north-las-vegas-solar-plant-after-14-months-heavy-federal-subsidies-162901626.html)

another buisness that the government built.
Are you saying that this didn't happen with any other administration?
You realize that that happens all the time, right?

Not the point at all . The point is that the President has now made a few speeches downplaying the significance of individual achievement and propping up the role of government in business formation.

not the point at all . The point is that the President has now made a few speeches downplaying the significance of individual achievement and propping up the role of government in business formation.Hello again, tom:

That's the SPIN, but it's NOT what he said... Wouldn't it be better if we argued about what actually HAPPENED, rather than what some extreme news organization SAID what happened??

excon

I have this image of pioneers crossing the Mississippi River and saying... "we can't go any further .....there are no roads! " The President is making his point very clear . We are helpless without government assistance .

I have this image of pioneers crossing the Mississippi River and saying ..."we can't go any further .....there are no roads !! "
Yes, it's EXACTLY like that! http://www.wm3blackboard.com/bb2-0/Smileys/smileystash/rolleyes.gif

Well that is the strawman he creates . Ex even fell for it when he said he couldn't build a business without the roads.

The truth is all these things that the President claims a successful businessperson depends on is ALREADY paid for by the business person . No more additional give back is required.

We are helpless without government assistance .Hello again, tom:

I don't know WHY you want to miss the point. Maybe that's what being a Republican is all about... I guess you miss it because you HATE Obama so much. I'm not impressed...

Ever play Sim City?? In Sim City, you're in charge of a city.. The population grows or shrinks based on how you manage the city... You DON'T create jobs. You create the ENVIRONMENT for companies to thrive.. WITHOUT the environment, there won't BE companies... That's TRUE in the game, and it's TRUE in real life.

Now, I probably DON'T need to explain what that environment IS, but I'm going to anyway, because you don't seem to understand how business operates..

In Sim City, you build streets, you build fire stations, you build parks, you build stadiums, you build power plants, you build police stations, you build bridges, you build airports and sea ports, and you set tax rates...

I said above that you can't build a factory in the middle of nowhere. You argued with me... But, clearly, WITHOUT those things listed above, your factory out in the middle of nowhere isn't going to thrive.

If you want to talk about THAT, let's go. But, if you want to MAKE up stuff, I'm not your guy.

excon

Hello Steve:

So, why don't you get mad at stuff he DID say?? Getting mad at stuff he DIDN'T say will raise your blood pressure.

excon

That's all you have to say about John Kass' remembrance of how the government 'helped' his family build their business? What he said was clear, 'If you've got a business - you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen.'

All the context in the world isn't going to change the meaning of that.

Ever play Sim City?.

People aren't trying to build a city, they're building a business.


I said above that you can't build a factory in the middle of nowhere. You argued with me...

I argued with you. Apparently you've never been to Texas.

In Sim City, you build streets, you build fire stations, you build parks, you build stadiums, you build power plants, you build police stations, you build bridges, you build airports and sea ports, and you set tax rates...

I said above that you can't build a factory in the middle of nowhere. You argued with me... But, clearly, WITHOUT those things listed above, your factory out in the middle of nowhere isn't going to thrive.


You put the cart before the horse. Evidently that's how Sim City works. In my world there is not one road built without demand for it ;there is not one stadium built until there is a population of working fans to go to games. You don't build police stations until there is a community of taxpayers to pay for it ;and needs the service .
I don't know WHY you want to miss the point. Maybe that's what being a progressive is all about.

Oh the irony...

Hello Righty's:

Yawn... Let me know when you want to discuss stuff that really happened.

excon

Again, oh the irony...

You mean real stuff like a war on women?

In my world there is not one road built without demand for it ;there is not one stadium built until there is a population of working fans to go to games. You don't build police stations until there is a community of taxpayers to pay for it ;and needs the service .
Yup, the rich people aren't building stuff just for fun, are they. They are building because there is a demand for services and products. "If you build it, they will come?" Not hardly likely.

But they didn't build it...

Hello again,

Let me know when you're done, so we can talk about what's REALLY happening...

Here's one... Rush Limprod believes that Hollywood CONSPIRED to name their really, really BAD guy in the new Batman movie, Bane, just so they could SMEAR Romney...

Yeah, that's a good one... It's as real as this thread.

excon

Yes, that Bane thing got my library juices flowing. So I Googled. Dictionary.reference.com says about the homonym (word that sounds like it) "bane" --

Bane noun
1. a person or thing that ruins or spoils: Gambling was the bane of his existence.
2. a deadly poison (often used in combination, as in the names of poisonous plants): wolfsbane; henbane.
3. death; destruction; ruin.
4. Obsolete . That which causes death or destroys life: entrapped and drowned beneath the watery bane.

Origin: before 1000; Middle English; Old English bana slayer; cognate with Old Norse bani death, murderer, Old Frisian bona murder, Old Saxon bano murderer, Old High German bano slayer, bana death; akin to Old English benn, Gothic banja wound

WG, your friendly librarian here: I'm guessing there was method in his madness and a dark bit of Aspie humor in naming his company "Bain."

Rush has it wrong obviously.. Bruce Wayne /Batman is a 1%er ;and Bane is Obama/Occupy Wall Street . So all the progressives will be rooting for the villain to do what he did in the comics (spoiler alert)

http://www.comicbooked.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/175px-Bane_breaks_Batman.png

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/483201_412287688806968_1413845947_n.jpg

The thread, MY thread, is real. If you want to discuss Limbaugh you can start another thread.

That our imperial president believes our only hope is government is a real issue. This is a guy who thinks being "my brother's keeper" is confiscating from one to give to another.

This is a guy who thinks a "freeloader" is someone who works hard for a living, pays his taxes but doesn't spend his money the way Obama wants him to or dares to try and keep some of it. And this is in order for the government to take care of more actual freeloaders.

That our president diminishes personal sacrifice and personal responsibility in essence gives us no claim to the rewards of our efforts, which is one more way to justify the government taking it, is an affront to everyone who has sweat and sacrificed to feed their families and eke out a living.

Instead, we all need to be obedient little serfs, stop being "freeloaders" by refusing to give everything back for the collective good, and when we're 42 maybe, just maybe if Obama sees fit we can allow him to build us an internet business just like Julia.

The thread, MY thread, is real. That our imperial president believes our only hope is government is a real issue.Hello again, Steve:

Real, if you drank the koolaid.

excon

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/didntbuildblocks.png-png

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/didntbuildblocks.png-png
This thread is funny in how it sinks to Grade 5 levels.

Hello again, Steve:

Real, if you drank the koolaid.

excon

The life of Julia (http://www.barackobama.com/life-of-julia). I rest my case.

This thread is funny in how it sinks to Grade 5 levels.

Got to keep it where you can understand it.

Remember this (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/obama-great-661588.html)?

Gotta keep it where you can understand it.
See? There's a perfect example.

See? There's a perfect example.

Must suck to have no sense of humor.

Love them here's more :
http://www.rightwingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/youdidbuild1.jpg
http://www.rightwingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/youdidbuild2.jpg
http://www.rightwingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/youdidbuild4.jpg

Is the point here you don't need a leader?

No, just one with a clue that doesn't lead from behind and bottom up.

No, just one with a clue
And that clue is?

And that clue is?Whatever the far right blogs tell them it is.

So they don't have a mind of their own' this is in addition to being ignorant red necked yahoos which is in complete contrast to those mindless slogan spouting card carrying dizens of the left

so they dont have a mind of their own' this is in addition to being ignorant red necked yahoos which is in complete contrast to those mindless slogan spouting card carrying dizens of the left
If you say so sir.

Whatever the far right blogs tell them it is.

Listen here Bucko, I don't need any blog, far right or not to tell me the country is tanking. What's the unemployment rate? How long has it been that bad? Where's consumer confidence? What is our national debt? What is our deficit? When is the least time the Senate passed a budget?

We have more people going on disability than finding jobs. Retail sales have declined 3 months in a row. How is he going to fix it all, by raising taxes and having another fundraiser instead of meeting with his own jobs council. But that's what you get when you elect a community organizer with no real world experience on the basis of his potential. Romney has the experience and has proven he knows how to turn things around and make it work, and the clueless Obots are attacking him for doing just that.

Hello again, Steve:

I don't know if you saw the Romney add where this guy BOUGHT the same BS you bought. Anyway, in the add, he talked about how HE built his business, and NOBODY else did. How could that commie Obama say such a thing? You know the schtick..

But, when confronted with the TRUTH about what Obama said, turns out he agrees with him. Whatdya know about that?

Daily Kos: (VIDEO) Business Man In Romney?s Attack Ad Agrees 100% With Obama On Fox News (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/20/1111948/--VIDEO-Business-Man-In-Romney-s-Attack-Ad-Agrees-100-With-Obama-On-Fox-News)

excon

PS> Ready to discuss some SUBSTANCE, or do you want to continue on THIS route??

And that clue is?

Someone that knows how to run a business, a state, the Olympics instead of someone who knows how to run his mouth. With a teleprompter that is. Just my opinion.

Having a clue at a minimum is knowing you don't lead from behind. And you might want to avoid accusing your opponent of misquoting you by showing both guys saying the same thing.

Obama ad claims Romney misquoted him, then plays Obama saying those words (http://www.examiner.com/video/obama-campaign-ad-accuses-romney-of-misquoting-president)



0:10—Romney: “He said this: ‘If you’ve got a business—you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.’”

0:18—Text appears on the screen reading “The only problem?” followed by “That’s not what he said.”

0:39—Obama: “If you’ve got a business—you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.”

You can't make this stuff up.

Obama ad claims Romney misquoted him, then plays Obama saying those words..

You can't make this stuff up.Hello again, Steve:

You CAN'T make this up? Dude! Bwa, ha ha ha.. That's all this thread is, is MADE UP.

Do you know the difference between misquoting and taking stuff out of context?? Are you SOO wedded to this IMPOSSIBLE position that you cannot see daylight??

It's becoming increasingly obvious that Romney is willing to plumb the depths of deceit and dishonor - something John McCain was UNWILLING to do...

Romney is a scumbag. He's drek.

excon

Romney has the experience and has proven he knows how to turn things around and make it work, By shutting down businesses, selling assets to China and enriching his own personal wealth. That's exactly what you'll get with him. Have fun!

It's becoming increasingly obvious that Romney is willing to plumb the depths of deceit and dishonor - something John McCain was UNWILLING to do...The sad part about the last election cycle is that McCain isn't a bad guy, he has ethics and sticks to his principles... up until his handlers morphed him into something he's not during the candidate-McCain period. It was sad to see.

Hello again, Steve:

I dunno if you saw the Romney add where this guy BOUGHT the same BS you bought. Anyway, in the add, he talked about how HE built his business, and NOBODY else did. How could that commie Obama say such a thing?? You know the schtick..

But, when confronted with the TRUTH about what Obama said, turns out he agrees with him. Whatdya know about that??

Daily Kos: (VIDEO) Business Man In Romney?s Attack Ad Agrees 100% With Obama On Fox News (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/20/1111948/--VIDEO-Business-Man-In-Romney-s-Attack-Ad-Agrees-100-With-Obama-On-Fox-News)

excon

PS> Ready to discuss some SUBSTANCE, or do you wanna continue on THIS route???

Answered (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/yes-we-can-no-you-didnt-683784-7.html#post3201679) previously but nonetheless...

We'd all be idiots to think we haven't been shaped in part by others, but you have to look deeper into what Obama says and what he's said in the past fits in exactly with our interpretation of it. Everything from "paying your fair share" to "brother's keeper" to the contraceptive mandate and considering someone who makes their own way and pays their taxes and dues society a "freeloader" all fits in with his collective vision.

He honestly believes that the biblical principal of being one's "brother's keeper" is tied to government and not the voluntary, selfless, personal sacrifice one person makes for another. To him "society" is synonymous with "government" instead of the voluntary, personal, interactive relationships we have with others. This is why he doesn't care if the church can no longer serve people as it has for millennia, doesn't care if the church has to compromise its principles, he believes more collective good comes from government.

So yes, when he said those words meant them exactly as we've presented which is why he doth protest, he knows the average American not of his progressive base takes offense. It was a rare - and unintended I'm sure - moment of candor. But the fact is we're right and we should be offended because society is not government, government is not the genesis of entrepreneurial success, government is not our brother's keeper.

Government is a cold, heartless, necessary evil best kept in check. That used to be a point of view you expressed regularly. Well, it's something you flip flop on from day to day.

By shutting down businesses, selling assets to China and enriching his own personal wealth. That's exactly what you'll get with him. have fun!

I guess you guys are just blind to what's going on now, but thankfully those "far right blogs" are doing the job the media won't do.

Romney, RNC attack crony capitalism in Obama stimulus programs (http://hotair.com/archives/2012/07/18/videos-romney-rnc-on-offense-on-crony-capitalism-in-obama-stimulus-programs/)

Hello again, Steve:

You CAN'T make this up? Dude! Bwa, ha ha ha.. That's all this thread is, is MADE UP.

Do you know the difference between misquoting and taking stuff out of context?? Are you SOO wedded to this IMPOSSIBLE position that you cannot see daylight??

I answered this pathetic charge twice now.


It's becoming increasingly obvious that Romney is willing to plumb the depths of deceit and dishonor - something John McCain was UNWILLING to do...

Romney is a scumbag. He's drek.

But calling donors pimps (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/taxers-683357-7.html#post3201895) and attacking your opponent's wife for riding horses as part of her MS therapy is just good, clean fun?

Government is a cold, heartless, necessary evil best kept in check. That used to be a point of view you expressed regularly. Well, it's something you flip flop on from day to day.Hello again, Steve:

Nahhh, I'm rather consistent.. Certainly, I don't support much of the COP side of government, but I'm a strong supporter of the safety net, without which, some people would be on their own. I haven't been shy about sharing my views, either. I guess you missed it.

What you also MISS, in your diatribe above, is that you're ADDRESSING somebody who is to the LEFT of president Obama. Interestingly enough, I don't support ANY of the leftist ideals you ascribe to Obama. How do you account for that?

In the REAL world, Obama has STRENGTHENED the safety net to include more people who would have been on their own without it. Beyond that, he's governed from the center.

I suggest that right wingers HATE the safety net SOOO much, that they think ANY strengthening of it, is communism run amuck.. But, my friend, those feelings stem from your IDEOLOGY, NOT Obama.. You can be cured of that.

excon

That's the problem ex, same with Obama - a language barrier. He says brother's keeper and I understand that the traditional way, me taking of my brother. He means taking my money so he can take care of my brother.

And I love a safety net, all conservatives love a safety net, because if we can't be a brother's keeper to everyone then someone needs to do it. The church, the government someone. We just happen to KNOW the church and the private sector is infinitely more efficient with our money than the government and the safety net is to catch those who've fallen, not those who haven't.

Hello again,

Let me know when you're done, so we can talk about what's REALLY happening...

Here's one... Rush Limprod believes that Hollywood CONSPIRED to name their really, really BAD guy in the new Batman movie, Bane, just so they could SMEAR Romney...

Yeah, that's a good one... It's as real as this thread.

Excon

Yeah, I guess Rush was stretching it when he suggested Dems might try to make a connection to Bane, that as Rush said that day "there are some people who think it will work."


Romney's new foe: Batman's 'Bane' (http://washingtonexaminer.com/romneys-new-foe-batmans-bane/article/2502274)
July 16, 2012

His summer's much-anticipated Hollywood blockbuster, "The Dark Knight Rises," is getting an unusual boost from Democrats and other foes of Mitt Romney who are eager to tie the Gotham crushing villain to the GOP presidential candidate. Their angle: the mask-wearing, "Venom" gas breathing bad guy has a name that sounds just like Romney's former investment firm that President Obama has been blasting as a jobs killer.

"Bane" is the terrorist in the new movie who drives the caped crusader out of semi-retirement in the final Batman movie. Democrats, who believe they have Romney on the ropes over the president's assault on his leadership at Bain Capital, said the comparisons are too rich to ignore.

"It has been observed that movies can reflect the national mood," said Democratic advisor and former Clinton aide Christopher Lehane. "Whether it is spelled Bain and being put out by the Obama campaign or Bane and being out by Hollywood, the narratives are similar: a highly intelligent villain with offshore interests and a past both are seeking to cover up who had a powerful father and is set on pillaging society," he added.

As the Friday release date has neared, liberal blogs were the first to connect Batman's toughest foe with Romney's firm.

Let's see, liberal blogs first made the connection and a Democratic advisor made the comparison the day before Rush brought it up and said "there are some people who think it will work."

Looks like Rush was right. I wonder if they'll feel any remorse for such puerile behavior in light of what happened in Colorado?

I live in Texas, and the businesses here are in the middle of no where, but they all have access to a road to somewhere. The state makes sure of that, MY tax dollars to help a business make money for someone. If you don't have a road, you submit a request to your local government before you put a business in the middle of no where. That's how its done in my part of Texas.

My confusion Speech, is you take an edited political ad seriously, and refuse to acknowledge the ORIGINAL version. Or that Romney said the same thing, almost verbatim.

Its called editing, and repubs are good at it. We are too, hehehe! But why argue over contrived assertions based on deceit when you can argue the facts?

I think the people who have 70% of the wealth should pay 70% of the burden for what we all need, don't you? Lets argue that instead of a cut up version of what a guy said.

Careful with your response because I may edit it to make sense.

They do already .A small fraction of high-income taxpayers pay the vast majority of all the taxes collected,

Top 1 Percent: How Much Do They Earn? | Bankrate.com (http://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/top-1-percent-earn.aspx)

How can you ignore the reasons there are more people who have not weathered a great reccesion as well as others?

Getting the Facts Straight on America's Tax Burden | The White House (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/09/26/getting-facts-straight-americas-tax-burden)

So while they pay more they earn more, and have deductions that lower their burden. In effect you can pay NOTHING on a billion dollars.

Face it tal .You are not interested in taxing income ;you want to tax wealth ;and your goal is NOT to fund the government as much as it is to 'level the playing field ' in the interest of 'fairness ';even as your policies hurts the econpmy.

Like what policy to be specific? Name one, so we can have a factual debate, without unfounded assertions, from broad based FEAR.

Oh wait, never mind. You still believe that the ones who were bailed out and still profit from the start of the recession, and have shipped jobs overseas for 30 years should have even more money.

Hello again, Steve:

You're right. You can't make this stuff up.

Guess what MSNBC dug up? Romney to Olympians, "You didn't get here solely on your own (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/23/12904508-romney-to-olympians-you-didnt-get-here-solely-on-your-own)". And they didn't have take it out of context either.

I wonder if they'll run it. Nahhhh.

excon

At least he didn't give government all the credit.

Neither did the president. Thanks ex, I was wondering when the righties would jump on Romney like they did the Prez for saying the same thing.

The double standard doesn't surprise me. The shame is I watched FOX NEWS to see if those stooges would get it! They didn't.

I know I expected too much fair and balance. My bad!

I didn't see where Romney said "if you got to the Olympics - you didn't do that. somebody else made that happen."

And from your link, he praised their individual achievements as opposed to discounting them:


“Tonight we cheer the Olympians, who only yesterday were children themselves,” Romney said. “As we watch them over the next 16 days, we affirm that our aspirations, and those of our children and grandchildren, can become reality. We salute you Olympians – both because you dreamed and because you paid the price to make your dreams real. You guys pushed yourself, drove yourself, sacrificed, trained and competed time and again at winning and losing.”

ROMNEY: "You Olympians, however, know you didn’t get here solely on your own power. For most of you, loving parents, sisters or brothers, encouraged your hopes, coaches guided, communities built venues in order to organize competitions. All Olympians stand on the shoulders of those who lifted them. We’ve already cheered the Olympians, let’s also cheer the parents, coaches, and communities."

ROMNEY: "You Olympians, however, know you didn’t get here solely on your own power. For most of you, loving parents, sisters or brothers, encouraged your hopes, coaches guided, communities built venues in order to organize competitions. All Olympians stand on the shoulders of those who lifted them. We’ve already cheered the Olympians, let’s also cheer the parents, coaches, and communities."

This is the correct quote.

I didn't see where Romney said "if you got to the Olympics - you didn't do that. somebody else made that happen."Hello again, Steve:

You're SOOO wedded to that position that you cannot see the error of your ways... Turn that FOX News OFF!

excon

http://spectator.org/assets/mc/cartoons/2012.7.23-You-Didnt-Build-It.jpg

Hello again, tom:

I don't know about you, but if it were proven, time and time again, that MY guy said the SAME thing that I've been complaining about Obama saying, I wouldn't post MORE of it..

But, that's just me.

excon

This is the correct quote.

And mine, from the same article, was incorrect how??

No I think I will when I find them. They are hilarious. Besides ;Romney give a hat tip to family and community. . Obama gives it to government . Big difference . In fact ,the only thing the government contributes to the Olympics evidently is a critique on where they get their uniforms . When I was a kid there was an Olympian from my area who was employed by Grumman... but we knew he spent most of his time training to throw a shotput. He wasn't on the Government payroll . He was employed by a private sector sponsor.
Obama on the other hand talks of government employed teachers ,or government built roads and internet . He says it to imply directly that without the government we would not succeed . Not only that ;he said business people are too stupid to do it alone.

Not only that ;he said business people are too stupid to do it alone.Hello again, tom:

OMG.. You've fallen in with the Tea Party.. There's no coming back, you know.

excon

And mine, from the same article, was incorrect how???
It didn't speak to the question on the table.

It didn't speak to the question on the table.

What?? That's ridiculous, it's from the same d@mn article.

What??????? That's ridiculous, it's from the same d@mn article.
Quit sputtering. You had said, 'I didn't see where Romney said "if you got to the Olympics - you didn't do that. somebody else made that happen.' " So I quoted the part where he said that.

I repeat:


I didn't see where Romney said "if you got to the Olympics - you didn't do that. somebody else made that happen."

And from your link, he praised their individual achievements as opposed to discounting them:

Quote:
“Tonight we cheer the Olympians, who only yesterday were children themselves,” Romney said. “As we watch them over the next 16 days, we affirm that our aspirations, and those of our children and grandchildren, can become reality. We salute you Olympians – both because you dreamed and because you paid the price [B]to make your dreams real. You guys pushed yourself, drove yourself, sacrificed, trained and competed time and again at winning and losing.”

What part of "you" did this as opposed you "didn't" do this don't you understand? And are you really equating “loving parents, sisters or brothers" etc. with the government made your Olympic dreams come true? Really?

What part of "you" did this as opposed you "didn't" do this don't you understand? And are you really equating “loving parents, sisters or brothers" etc. with the government made your Olympic dreams come true? Really?
But that ("the government") isn't what President Obama said.

You need to read his speech again. Deficit - government. Ask the wealthy to pay more - government taxes. Teacher - government. American system - government. Roads and bridges - government. Internet - government (so he claims). Fighting fires - government. What did Obama say that did not point to government?

What did Obama say that did not point to government?
Dear lord!! Or as my Tar Heel friends used to say, "Lawsy days!!!"

http://www.johnbatchelorshow.com/sites/default/files/styles/featured/public/aaa3.jpg

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/A/c/4/Romney-VP-Job-Outsource.jpg

Dear lord!!!!! Or as my Tar Heel friends used to say, "Lawsy days!!!"

That didn't speak to the question. Which part of Obama's speech did not point to government?

I find it quite telling actually that the people who keep arguing for government intervention, Obamacare, expanding the welfare net, etc. are coming to his defense to deny he's preaching the very thing they love him for. Everything Obama does is to rationalize and enact government solutions. Again, which part of his speech did not point to government as our cosponsor?

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/-/c/4/Mitts-Qualifications.jpg

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/n/b/4/Romney-Attack-Ad.jpg

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/j/b/4/Romney-Creating-Jobs.jpg

Spamming the board... nice.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn320/vulgarman/Photoshops/hope_you_didnt_build_that.jpg

I have more if that's what we're doing here now.

I find it quite telling actually that the people who keep arguing for government intervention, Obamacare, expanding the welfare net, etc. are coming to his defense to deny he's preaching the very thing they love him for.
Who here has actively asked for government intervention and who here has mentioned that they love Obama for government intervention?

So no one exists outside of AMHD? Wow, you live in a small world.

P.S. you are the only one actively spamming the thread.

Hello again,

I don't have a cartoon. Just a statement from Thomas Paine.. You know, one of the founders.. What do YOU think he means?


Personal property is the effect of society; and it is as impossible for an individual to acquire personal property without the aid of society, as it is for him to make land originally.

Separate an individual from society, and give him an island or a continent to possess, and he cannot acquire personal property. He cannot be rich. So inseparably are the means connected with the end, in all cases, that where the former do not exist the latter cannot be obtained. All accumulation, therefore, of personal property, beyond what a man's own hands produce, is derived to him by living in society; and he owes on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part of that accumulation back again to society whence the whole came."

-Agrarian Justice Part Three

Excon

Hello again,

I don't have a cartoon. Just a statement from Thomas Paine.. You know, one of the founders.. What do YOU think he means?



excon

It means he (ones self) is obligated to the many to participate in the process of the civilization that they live in. As in the statement united we stand divided we fall.

Being ex military surely you understand that by working as one you can get the project done but going off by yourself mainly gets you killed.

Actually Paine opposed the Constitution vehemently . Not sure what Paine meant by his comment ;but I understand completely what the President was gettting at... The state protects business interests so taxpayers have a partial claim on the wealth produced.

If you see my discussion about rent-seekers with Tut you see that some big businesses do not merely benefit from state intervention, but would sink without it. The corporations you and the President like to slam are very dependent on government ,and that dependence has only increased as government has grown. They are in fact state approved cartels .

When the President says "Somebody else made that happen," he means that big business could not have created the corporate state on their own. Liberal policies made it happen.

The President was speaking to the small business owner however ;and they just as soon government get out of the way.

The President was speaking to the small business owner however ;and they just as soon government get out of the way.

Except when the government loans them money, or gives out grants that banks won't or don't. I mean every small business owner in the Romney ads has taken money from the government. Heck even that whack job Bachman is on the dole while she cries about it.


he owes on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part of that accumulation back again to society whence the whole came."

Pass the peas, and leave enough for the next guy.

Paine spent the 1790s in France and was a big fan of the French revolution (at least until he got on the wrong side of Robespierre).. His 'Rights of Man ' was written to defend the excesses of the revolution there. So his egalitarian leanings are on display in the quote. He was not a fan of Edmund Burke .
When Robespierre's faction took control ,Paine was arrested and came close to a date with the guillotine .
He returned to America as a man discreditted .He had burned too many bridges . When he died ,only a handful of people attended his funeral.

“He didn't invent iron ore and blast furnaces, did he?”

“Who?”

“Rearden. He didn't invent smelting and chemistry and air compression. He couldn't have invented his Metal but for thousands and thousands of other people. His Metal! Why does he think it's his? Why does he think it's his invention? Everybody uses the work of everybody else. Nobody ever invents anything.”

She said, puzzled, “But the iron ore and all those other things were there all the time. Why didn't anybody else make that Metal, but Mr. Rearden did?”
Ayn Rand 'Atlas Shrugged ' .
She predicted this conversation would take place back in 1957 .

Ayn Rand 'Atlas Shrugged ' .
She predicted this conversation would take place back in 1957 .yes, millions upon millions of fiction books have been written, eventually one may have text with relevance to a situation in the future.

yes, millions upon millions of fiction books have been written,Hello again, NK:

Careful, dude... You're talking about the right wing god creature, here.

excon

yes, millions upon millions of fiction books have been written, eventually one may have text with relevance to a situation in the future.

Kind of like the big bang theory, eventually all that nothingness will randomly turn into a sentient being.

Kind of like the big bang theory, eventually all that nothingness will randomly turn into a sentient being.Ok.

Hello again, NK:

Careful, dude... You're talking about the right wing god creature, here.

excon

Not quite . I agree with most of her philosophical views ;except perhaps her atheism.

Ok.

Purely accidental was your point wasn't it? Which is more logical, from big bang to people or an intelligent author foreseeing the direction of things through her observations and life experience?

Whatever you want to believe and makes you happy, I'm OK with.

Hello again:


Observe that by ascribing rights to the unborn, i.e. the nonliving, the anti-abortionists obliterate the rights of the living. - Ayn Rand

Hmmm... Ayn Rand is PRO choice... Whoda thunk that?

Excon

Whatever you want to believe and makes you happy, I'm ok with.

In other words, you don't much care for it when someone makes your point look silly.

In other words, you don't much care for it when someone makes your point look silly.If you did but you didn't. You did your usual bit of putting words in my mouth. It's tiresome.
Everything needs to have some weird religious undertones with you, it's creepy.

If you did but you didn't. You did your usual bit of putting words in my mouth. It's tiresome.
Everything needs to have some weird religious undertones with you, it's creepy.

And I'm sure you think you're God's gift to AMHD. Oh look, an actual religious undertone as opposed to an imagined one.

Hello again:



Hmmm... Ayn Rand is PRO choice... Whoda thunk that?

excon

Warming up to her are you ? I would think her Objectivism would be right up your alley.. If only you would dump your socialistic tendencies.

You did your usual bit of putting words in my mouth. It's tiresome.



And I'm sure you think you're God's gift to AMHD.

And there you go again.

Sorry dude, but correcting you is tiresome. You mean there I go finally.

I would think her Objectivism would be right up your alley .. Hello tom:

I AM an objectivist.. I just approach it from the OPPOSITE side of the spectrum than YOU do. That's why you don't recognize me. Furthermore, I submit that you're no more an objectivist than I am... Oh, you TALK a good story about individual rights and smaller government, but when push comes to shove, you're OK with BIG government as long as it meets YOUR objectives... That's ANYTHING but Ayn Rand.

You believe that if it wasn't for those pesky anti Americans, and dope smokers, we COULD have an objectivist society.. And, just as soon as we wipe them out, we'll HAVE one, too.

I'm not so different... If it wasn't for those crony capitalists and moralizing religionists, we COULD have an objectivist society... As soon as we bring them in line, we'll HAVE one, too.

excon

You believe that if it wasn't for those pesky anti Americans, and dope smokers, we COULD have an objectivist society.. And, just as soon as we wipe them out, we'll HAVE one, too.


Lol clearly you have not read a thing I've written about pot.

you're OK with BIG government as long as it meets YOUR objectives...
I'm for a government no bigger or smaller than what was the intent written into the Constitution. The government has been granted the power to secure the nation . Anything short of that is anarchy and the government would cease to exist ,which would do us no good as a nation.

But you want Plutocrats and elites to make laws and policy to govern the money, and the masses, and that was the original intent too!

But you want Plutocrats and elites to make laws and policy to govern the money, and the masses

Tal ,prove where I've ever written such a thing .You guys are real good at putting words in my mouth.

Let me make it clear;the problem with America isn't the monopoly the governments has on force ,or elites running the show;it is the collectivist culture of the voters .

let me make it clear;the problem with America isn't the monopoly the governments has on force ,or elites running the show;it is the collectivist culture of the voters .Nope, the problem with America is that the politicians vote for their donors not for the people that elected them. Your corporations have taken over your government.

BS . I gave an example of the NRA on the other thred. There is nothing a special interest could do without the backing of the people. It is the people who have allowed this to become a Leviathan . It is the people who have allowed themselves to be bought with ever expanding entitlement .

There is nothing a special interest could do without the backing of the people. Not at all. What corporate board needs to hear from the people before it "donates" millions to a candidate/senator/governor/congressman in return for a favorable vote?

You have written many times about unfettering big business by relieving them of cumbersome regulations, without being specific, so while they buy influence of elected leaders, they also write their own rules that favors them with no or little enforcement or consequence. Except to the many who suffer the actions of the few. Legally the can extract all the resources, and control the circulation that the economy needs to grow and function.

I mean you oppose fixing bridges and job creators paying for it. But you would cut the safety net to give them even more loot. That sounds to me like supporting the plutocarts and elites to me.

Peeing on my head and calling it rain is not going to work here. I mean why else would you refer to rich guys as job creators and then say the president is not doing his job by creating jobs? Make the job creators do their job! Or at least strip them of the title and call 'em greedy b@stards like they are.

You want them to have even more and NOT have to do their job, like the elites and plutocrats know better than any one what's best for the country. You support the Ryan plan and Romney, a plutocrat and an elitest. Take from the poor and give to the rich.

Your words and actions make my assertions TRUE, and those ARE your ideas even if you deny the words.

It is the people who have allowed themselves to be bought with ever expanding entitlement .
What does that mean in relations to what I wrote??

Getting my fair share of the pie is not an entitlement, its my right.