Hello:

The right wing tells us they only want to insure the INTEGRITY of the vote.. Then why does THIS right winger (http://thegrio.com/2012/06/26/mike-turzai-voter-id-will-help-mitt-romney-gop-win-pennsylvania/)think it's to insure a Romney victory?

Pennsylvania state House Republican Mike Turzai got very candid in a speech to the state's Republican committee. He said that newly passed voter ID laws would allow Mitt Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania.

We knew it all along.

excon

Conversely ,ineligible voters will help Obama win the State ?

Conversely ,ineligible voters will help Obama win the State ?Hello again, tom:

If I was attempting to insure the integrity of the vote, I'd be WILLING to have a few ineligible people vote in order to make sure that EVERY legal voter has an opportunity to VOTE.. Throwing THOUSANDS of eligible voters OFF the rolls to keep, who knows HOW MANY fictitious voters from voting, is throwing out the baby with the bathwater...

Now, I'd be all over voter ID requirements if you can show me where illegal voting is a problem.. Any link will do. Plus, I'd be ALL for voter ID IF the states that NOW require them provided them FREE to all eligible voters... But, they're NOT doing that. I suspect they're doing that to make sure ELIGIBLE voters don't vote... That's voter suppression.

excon

I too think that voter fraud is an overstated issue. However ,I have no problem with laws that require voter id if they are evenly applied. But you can't say that 'THOUSANDS of eligible voters are being taken OFF the rolls ' in PA. I'd like to see the evidence of it anywhere else too.
And yes ,if there are states that don't offer free voter id cards ,they should. But Thirty-one states require all voters to show ID before voting at the polls.Are you claiming all of them practice voter suppression ? PA offers free voter id cards .So where's the beef ?
These states still have to comply with Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act. So if there is voter suppression then by all means challenge the state provisions.

This is interesting:
UFO Sightings Are More Common Than Voter Fraud | Mother Jones (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/voter-id-laws-charts-maps)

I've heard it's a picture ID needed. I get a cute little card in the mail (Illinois) from the county Board of Election Commissioners, but no one has ever asked for it when I vote.

Lol ,I'm sure they don't ask the voters from the cemetery for id either .

I don't understand what the issue to having some form of photo ID, it is required for almost anything we do in life in the US. Try to open a bank account, heck my 11 year old son has a state issued ID.

It may appear rare, but ask about the election in Memphis TN a few years ago where the "dead" vote help swing the election. Requiring proper ID is not restricting anyone's rights. Anyone no matter their race, religion even sexual orientation can apply for a ID card

I don't understand what the issue to having some form of photo ID, Hello Padre:

The issue ISN'T ID.. It's that LOTS of poor people don't HAVE the ID the state is requiring... Now, if the state issued a FREE ID along with the new requirement, I'd say their intention is voter integrity... But, if they DON'T, I'd say their intention is voter suppression. The guy in my link AGREES with me.

excon

And if a voter has become homebound or is in a nursing home or is hospitalized or is a non-driver and lives in a bad neighborhood away from a DMV so no state ID can be easily obtained...

Absentee balloting provisions are common in all states.

Hello Padre:

The issue ISN'T ID.. It's that LOTS of poor people don't HAVE the ID the state is requiring... Now, if the state issued a FREE ID along with the new requirement, I'd say their intention is voter integrity... But, if they DON'T, I'd say their intention is voter suppression. The guy in my link AGREES with me.

excon

The PA voter id is issued free .

absentee balloting provisions are common in all states.
But now a photo ID copy must accompany the application.

The PA voter id is issued free .Hello again, tom:

South Carolina does too, but MANY of the other voter ID states don't. It's a national issue.

You should excuse my skepticism, but would you LINK me to the website where it discusses it? Are they mailing them to ALL voters? Do they have to pick them up?

excon

Geeze maybe they should hand deliver them on a silver platter. Do voters have any duty and responsibility in the process ? Fr Chuck is right. You need an id ,and often a photo id for many common transactions . Voting should be no different .

Under the new law, which Gov. Tom Corbett (R) signed in March, Pennsylvania will issue free photo ID cards to voters who can produce birth certificates or other proof of identify.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/02/pennsylvania-voter-id-law-viviette-applewhite_n_1472192.html

geeze maybe they should hand deliver them on a silver platter.


Under the new law, which Gov. Tom Corbett (R) signed in March, Pennsylvania will issue free photo ID cards to voters who can produce birth certificates or other proof of identify.

But Applewhite, who marched in Macon, Ga. with Martin Luther King during the height of the civil rights movement and first voted in 1960, casting her ballot for John F. Kennedy, according to The Philadelphia Inquirer, doesn't have a drivers license. She never learned to drive, and she lost her other IDs when her purse was stolen years ago. She has asked the state for a copy of her birth certificate, but the state can't seem to find it. As a result, she can't get a photo ID that will allow her to vote in the November election.Hello tom:

Mailing them would be fine... But, they're not even going to do that.. Apparently, people like Miss Applewhite must provide ID in order to get the ID... And, she must DRIVE to get it, but she doesn't drive...

Nahhh, it's voter suppression...

Excon

So she has no id and you think she should be allowed to vote ? How about the illegal immigrant that lives in the house next to her ?


Buterbaugh says the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation will the photo ID without charge to any voter who swears that he or she has no other ID that is acceptable for voting.“We have a list of things that we ask them, because some photo IDs that people already have will suffice under the letter of the law,” Buterbaugh tells KYW Newsradio. “So we go down the list of acceptable IDs and if they affirm that they don't have any other IDs, they sign a paper and then the ID is free for them.”
SPECIAL REPORT: Pennsylvania's New Voter ID Card Law CBS Philly (http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/04/18/special-report-pennsylvanias-new-voter-id-card-law/)


Register to Vote by Mail

You can register to vote by mail in two ways:

Get a Voter Registration Mail Application form from the state or federal government. The Secretary of the Commonwealth and all county registration commissions supply Voter Registration Mail Applications to all persons and organizations who request them, including candidates, political parties and political bodies and other federal, state and municipal offices.
Download the Voter Registration Application. Print, complete, sign and deliver to your County Voter Registration Office by mail or in person.

Register to Vote (http://www.votespa.com/portal/server.pt/community/register_to_vote/13518/how_to_register/585323)

As you see . There are provisions for getting the id for free (freebies I understand being important to libs ) and for obtaining one by mail . There are also absentee ballot provisions for those who can't make it to the polls.

And both parties have poll watchers and organizations to get out the vote... ususally including picking up voters and bringing them to polling places if they can't get there on their own.
I don't know what else they should do... pick them up in a stretch limo ?

But now a photo ID copy must accompany the application.





What I need to know about voting by Absentee Ballot due to the Voter ID Law
New identification requirements take effect in November 2012.
Voters must provide drivers license number, last 4 digits of Social Security Number, or a copy of an accepted photo ID when applying for an absentee ballot. Voters may provide identifying number to county over the phone, by email or mail.
Identification will be verified by the county board of elections before the voters ballot will be counted. Voters have 6 days following an election to provide the necessary identification.
UOCAVA voters and voters affected by the Voting Accessibility for Elderly and Handicapped Act are exempt.
http://www.votespa.com/portal/server.pt/community/how_to_vote/13515/voting_by_absentee_ballot/585300

so she has no id and you think she should be allowed to vote ? How about the illegal immigrant that lives in the house next to her ? Hello again, tom:

Couple things... You make some assumptions that I don't.. SHE has NOTHING to fear fro showing up at a polling place. HE has EVERYTHING to fear.

IF the intent of the state was to PROMOTE voting, they could certainly inspect previous registration records to see if Miss Applewhite is eligible. And, I believe that IS the states job, instead of doing the opposite.

excon

There is nothing else to say. All your arguments have been answered . Pa. has a reasonable requirement for voting . The truth is that people who object to these minimal requirements don't want voter suppression all right.. They don't want to repress ineligible people from voting .

they don't want to repress ineligible people from voting .Hello again, tom:

Nahhh. You distort. I've stated many times here, that I don't want anybody voting who doesn't have the RIGHT to vote.

In fact, All I've EVER asked for here, is EVIDENCE that people ARE voting who DON'T have the right to vote. However, you NEVER show any, because there ISN'T any.

Here's how it works in this great land of ours, FIRST off we notice that a crime has been committed. SECOND off, we make laws against it. What we DON'T do, is makeup that somebody is doing something, and make a law against it.

So, unless you present EVIDENCE that LAWS need to be passed to protect the integrity of the vote, it's clear that your intention is to suppress the vote.

excon

And simularily ,when groups sue to block photo-ID laws in court, they can't seem to produce examples of people who have actually been denied the right to vote. I have seen someone successfully demonstrate that he could've voted in the primaries under Eric Holder's name without being asked any proof that he was Holder. Heck ,the guy never even identified himself as Holder and still the poll watcher was going to allow him to vote under Holder's name . That alone proves that most voting systems nationwide are too lax .
If that same person wanted to enter the Justice Dept building he would have to show a photo id.

Want to know why liberal of liberal States Rhode Island adopted photo id for voting ?
Because State Senator Harold Metts was told by several constituents of a pattern of voter fraud in Providence. His state representative and her daughter had their votes stolen by someone voting in their names in one election. So maybe they were lying ? Metts by the way is an African American . He took a lot of heat for sponsoring the bill .But he knows it was the right thing to do. The law was passed overwhelmingly by a Democrat legislature.

He said “It's time to stop crying wolf and make the voter-ID law work for those on both sides of this issue who want to ensure the integrity of the system, while guarding against disenfranchisement.”Letter: Why is Voter Integrity Still Being Ignored in RI? - Woonsocket, RI Patch (http://woonsocket.patch.com/articles/letter-why-is-voter-integrity-still-being-ignored-in-ri)
Indeed!!

More from Metts ;and this may cut to the heart of the matter:
"Historically, when Black people know the rules of the game they follow them to the letter and participate in the process. I take exception to those who give credence to stereotypes about our alleged inability or limited intelligence to participate in the democratic process. Moreover, as a candidate, I will make certain that those supporting me have a voter I.D., or know about the provisional ballot."

All I know is first ex said if they provide them for free he was OK with it.


"Plus, I'd be ALL for voter ID IF the states that NOW require them provided them FREE to all eligible voters... "

But go ahead, keep moving the goalpost, ex. I know what you said.

But go ahead, keep moving the goalpost, ex. I know what you said.Hello Steve:

Mailing it to them is free. Making them pick it up ain't free. Making them get an ID in order to get the ID, isn't free. It just ain't. There's no moving of the goal posts. Free is free, and everything else isn't.

excon

So you really don't want anyone to have to lift a finger to be responsible for themselves do you?

So you really don't want anyone to have to lift a finger to be responsible for themselves do you?Hello again, Steve:

Voting is a right... If there's any heavy lifting involved, it should be the government doing it. Are they not charged with protecting our rights??

excon

What exactly should me a minimum qualification ? A pulse ? We know in Chicago they waive that one too.

Did you not read my response to Wondergirl ?

Here is all you need to get a mail order FREE id.

In case you missed it...


What I need to know about voting by Absentee Ballot due to the Voter ID Law
New identification requirements take effect in November 2012.
Voters must provide drivers license number, last 4 digits of Social Security Number, or a copy of an accepted photo ID when applying for an absentee ballot. Voters may provide identifying number to county over the phone, by email or mail.
Identification will be verified by the county board of elections before the voters ballot will be counted. Voters have 6 days following an election to provide the necessary identification.
UOCAVA voters and voters affected by the Voting Accessibility for Elderly and Handicapped Act are exempt.
Heck ,you don't even have to provide the full SS #... you don't even have to prove that the SS card is actually you!

How would I provide that?

What do you think a minimum level of proof should be to confirm you are eligible to vote ? Or do you think anyone who is here ,citizen or not should have that right ?

Well, for 44 years, I've been showing up at my polling place, said my name to the person sitting at the table, this person checked my name off on a long list (pages' worth) of registered voters, and then I voted.

So you think there should be no standards of proof at the polling place.

I haven't had to prove who I am for 46 years.

So the answer is no ;you don' t think there should be any standards of proving identity at the polls . Enfranchise for everyone ,eligible or not .

so the answer is no ;you don' t think there should be any standards of proving identity at the polls . Enfranchise for everyone ,eligible or not .Hello again, tom:

Are you telling me that ANYBODY, or their brother, can just walk in and REGISTER to vote ANYWHERE, WITHOUT showing WHO they are?? I don't think that's the way it is, here in this great land of ours. They don't do that ANYWHERE.

You're just being hysterical.

excon

Hello again, Steve:

Voting is a right... If there's any heavy lifting involved, it should be the government doing it. Are they not charged with protecting our rights???

excon

So there are no eligibility requirements to vote? At all? And if there are, you don't have to show proof of eligibility? What about the rights of American citizens to not have their elections tainted by fraudulent voters?

What about our own DoJ, using a group whose mission (http://www.catalist.us/about) is "to provide progressive organizations with the data and services needed to better identify, understand, and communicate with the people they need to persuade and mobilize," to challenge Texas' voter ID law (http://judiciary.house.gov/news/07052012.html)? No bias there, eh?

What about the rights of American citizens to not have their elections tainted by fraudulent voters?Hello again, Steve:

They have the right to be protected from the sky falling too, but you can't show me any more evidence of fraudulent voting than the sky falling.

Look. I'm on YOUR side. I HATE cheaters... SHOW me where we've been cheated, and I'll be outraged just like you.

excon

PS> (edited) I DO find it interesting that you're worried about illegal aliens VOTING, but you don't mind them donating unlimited amounts of untraceable money to political campaigns.. Makes NO sense to a fellow like me.

Look. I'm on YOUR side. I HATE cheaters... SHOW me where we've been cheated, and I'll be outraged just like you.

So because I haven't been robbed I shouldn't try to prevent robberies? Odd logic you have there, buddy.


PS> (edited) I DO find it interesting that you're worried about illegal aliens VOTING, but you don't mind them donating unlimited amounts of untraceable money to the campaigns.. Makes NO sense to a fellow like me.

Aliens, dead people, multiple votes, yeah, it should be prevented. And Sheldon Adelson was born in Boston.

REGISTERING to vote is one issue. Yes, the person registering to vote needs to show a picture ID (so they know that's him) plus at least two forms of ID to prove his residence, where he sleeps at night. In Illinois (and probably in most other states), a voter has to reregister with a new address if he moves. Registration/reregistration is closed a month before an election. I've registered and reregistered thousands of people while working in Libraryland.

At that point, the voter's name goes down on the rolls at the county election commissioner's office. That list is what the election judges have in front of them when I go to my polling place to vote. I say who I am and tell where I live (no ID is asked for), and my name is checked off. If my name isn't there at that address, I will be sent home without voting.

People who've moved and live at a new address used to not be allowed to vote, although now I think my state allows reregistering on the spot at the polling place. Because of early voting, registering with proper ID may be allowed now too.

So because I haven't been robbed I shouldn't try to prevent robberies? Odd logic you have there, buddy.Hello again, Steve:

MY logic? Dude! You DID hit upon a universal truth, even IF you used twisted logic to get there.

If robbery ISN'T a problem, of course you shouldn't be worried about it... Only a paranoid society makes laws against things that DON'T happen and NEVER did.

But, robbery IS a problem, of course, whereas the sky falling, I mean fraudulent voting ISN'T. I say again, SHOW me where you've been robbed, I mean where somebody FRAUDULENTLY voted, and I'll put in my worst pitchers..

excon

Hello again, Steve:

MY logic? Dude! You DID hit upon a universal truth, even IF you used twisted logic to get there.

If robbery ISN'T a problem, of course you shouldn't be worried about it... Only a paranoid society makes laws against things that DON'T happen and NEVER did.

But, robbery IS a problem, of course, whereas the sky falling, I mean fraudulent voting ISN'T. I say again, SHOW me where you've been robbed, I mean where somebody FRAUDULENTLY voted, and I'll put in my worst pitchers..

excon

So there is no voter fraud so don't worry keeping our elections honest. In other words, being vigilant to maintain the integrity of the vote is just plain silly.

REGISTERING to vote is one issue. Yes, the person registering to vote needs to show a picture ID (so they know that's him) plus at least two forms of ID to prove his residence, where he sleeps at night. In Illinois (and probably in most other states), a voter has to reregister with a new address if he moves. Registration/reregistration is closed a month before an election. I've registered and reregistered thousands of people while working in Libraryland.

At that point, the voter's name goes down on the rolls at the county election commissioner's office. That list is what the election judges have in front of them when I go to my polling place to vote. I say who I am and tell where I live (no ID is asked for), and my name is checked off. If my name isn't there at that address, I will be sent home without voting.

People who've moved and live at a new address used to not be allowed to vote, although now I think my state allows reregistering on the spot at the polling place. Because of early voting, registering with proper ID may be allowed now too.

We know how it works Carol, but I have never once been allowed to vote without them requiring me to present my voter registration card or a valid ID to prove I am who I say am. What's the big deal?

It's silly as hell to me for anyone like ex and our own DoJ to fight tooth and nail against maintaining the integrity of our elections. When did honesty and integrity cease to be a virtue?

Wow! I NEVER have been asked to provide ID at the polling place. I've even offered and was told no. My name was checked off on the big list.

In other words, being vigilant to maintain the integrity of the vote is just plain silly.Hello again, Steve:

When there's absolutely NO evidence whatsoever, of the integrity of our vote being BREACHED, then yes, worrying about it IS silly.

You make it sound like there's NO protections at all - that ANYBODY can just waltz in and vote.. You seem to forget the registration process. You need to show ID to register. If Jose showed up at the polls and wasn't registered, he can't vote.

Here's another thing that's silly. You think that an illegal alien, who's afraid of being deported, who won't file a tax return to get his withholding taxes back, would gleefully walk into a government space and put his LIBERTY at risk to cast a fraudulent vote... Thinking that THAT is a plausible scenario is UNBELIEVABLY silly..

excon

Wow! I NEVER have been asked to provide ID at the polling place. I've even offered and was told no. My name was checked off on the big list.

Been voting since 1978 and have always had to present one or the other. Then they check me off the big list. I don't get what the big deal is.

Hello again, Steve:

When there's absolutely NO evidence whatsoever, of the integrity of our vote being BREACHED, then yes, worrying about it IS silly.

You make it sound like there's NO protections at all. That ANYBODY can just waltz in and vote.. You seem to forget the registration process. You need to show ID to register. If Jose showed up at the polls and wasn't registered, he can't vote.

Here's another thing that's silly. You think that an illegal alien, who's afraid of being deported, who won't file a tax return to get his withholding taxes back, would gleefully walk into a government space and put his LIBERTY at risk to cast a fraudulent vote... Thinking that THAT is a plausible scenario is UNBELIEVABLE silly..

Excon

Sunland Park ex-employees indicted for voter fraud (http://www.lcsun-news.com/new_mexico-news/ci_20929080/sunland-park-ex-employees-indicted-voter-fraud)

Democrat admits role in voter fraud case
(http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Democrat-admits-role-in-voter-fraud-case-2142541.php#ixzz1zqxxS7zL)

Former Troy City Clerk William A. McInerney pleaded guilty Friday to a charge that he signed a voter's signature to a Working Families Party absentee primary ballot in 2009 to steer the vote to his Democratic Party candidates...

Working Family Party voters were targeted in 2009. Some were not fluent in English, and one is deaf. Besides forging voters' signatures, there are allegations that candidates and party workers wrote fictitious reasons on the ballot applications for why the person could not vote at the polls.

State Police arrested McInerney Aug. 8 on 10 felony counts accusing him of handling forged absentee-ballot applications for Democratic and Working Families voters in 2007 and 2008. Smith said those counts pending in Troy City Court will be dropped when McInerney is sentenced at a later date.

In January, the grand jury indicted Democratic Elections Commissioner Edward McDonough and Councilman Michael LoPorto on 116 counts of forgery and falsifying business records. Both pleaded not guilty and await trial.

McDonough and LoPorto are among nine Democrats identified by the special prosecutor in previous legal papers as part of the ballot-fraud probe.

Also named are Council President Clement Campana; Councilmen John Brown, Gary Galuski and Kevin McGrath; and party operatives Dan Brown, who is John Brown's brother, and Anthony DeFiglio, a former Troy Housing Authority clerk.

Related...

Officials Plead Guilty in New York Voter Fraud Case (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/21/officials-plead-guilty-in-new-york-voter-fraud-case/print#ixzz1zqyqSVAE)


Numerous voters told Fox News that they were stunned that their signatures were faked on absentee ballot applications and ballots, which were cast as real votes in their names in the 2009 primary election.

Brian Suozzo's absentee ballot application claimed that he was "at home recovering from medical procedure," which he told us was not true.

"Someone took my signature and voted with it and I feel extremely violated," Suozzo said when Fox News first broke the story nationally in 2009. "The whole thing seems dirty to me."...

In November 2009, Democratic operative Anthony DeFiglio told New York State police investigators that faking absentee ballots was a commonplace and accepted practice in political circles, all intended to swing an election.

"This is an on-going scheme and it occurs on both sides of the aisle," he told police. "The people who are targeted live in low-income housing and there is a sense that they are a lot less likely to ask any questions."

He said that "it was common knowledge that these people were never going to receive an absentee ballot. This is a political strategy to get control of a third party line."

Davis shifts on voter ID


Artur Davis's voice is a pretty meaningful one in this debate:

The truth is that the most aggressive contemporary voter suppression in the African American community, at least in Alabama, is the wholesale manufacture of ballots, at the polls and absentee, in parts of the Black Belt.

Voting the names of the dead, and the nonexistent, and the too-mentally-impaired to function, cancels out the votes of citizens who are exercising their rights -- that's suppression by any light. If you doubt it exists, I don't; I've heard the peddlers of these ballots brag about it, I've been asked to provide the funds for it, and I am confident it has changed at least a few close local election results.

There is no question that a voter ID law, in order to pass legal muster and in order to be just, must have certain characteristics. It should contain exceptions for the elderly or disabled who may not drive, and as a consequence lack the most conventional ID, a driver's license. There should also be a process for non-drivers to obtain a photo ID, and the process has to be cost-free, for the simple reason that even a nominal financial impediment to voting looks and feels too much like a poll tax.


Next?

P.S. Plenty of illegals file tax returns, too. The IRS makes it easy for them.

Illegal Aliens Receive Billions in IRS Tax Benefits (http://www.newsmax.com/JamesWalsh/Illegal-Aliens-IRS-Tax/2011/09/23/id/412134)


On July 7, 2011, the U.S. Department of Treasury's inspector general for tax administration issued a startling report entitled “Individuals Who Are Not Authorized to Work in the United States Were Paid $4.2 Billion in Refundable Credits.”

No wonder the nation’s finances are in turmoil.

According to the Treasury report, foreign nationals not authorized to work in the United States and ineligible for a Social Security Number (SSN) are nevertheless receiving government help from the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). The IRS currently issues undocumented aliens an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) to facilitate their filing of tax returns.

Many illegal workers are paid in cash “under the table” and thus file no tax forms at all; but a number of undocumented workers, according to the Treasury report, are receiving public benefits contrary to federal and state laws.

For example, the Child Tax Credit (CTC) and the Additional Child Tax Credit (ACTC) allow payment of federal funds as tax benefits to undocumented aliens. Add to these the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC), and the result is tax refunds that provide incentives for foreign nationals to enter, reside, and work in the United States without authorization and in violation of current U.S. immigration law.

The CTC, ACTC, and EITC have come under review because of the significant volume of Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) returns filing for these credits using fraudulent data, such as names and SSNs.

The Treasury report notes that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA) temporarily increased ACTC eligibility by changing the income threshold for calculating the credits in 2009 and 2010. The result was that in 2010, undocumented alien (ITIN) filers were able to claim higher tax refunds that totaled $4.2 billion. They represent an increase from $924 million in 2005.

It is clear that unauthorized aliens are filing ITIN tax returns with fraudulent data. The Treasury report found that “One common type of fraudulent refund involves taxpayers fabricating a Wage and Tax Statement (Form W-2) that shows excess withholding and results in a tax refund.”

Street-smart illegal immigrants are wise to the federal government’s incompetence.

Every one of your objections has been put to rest, so give it up dude. If one person casts a vote illegally that cancels my legal vote and as Davis put it, "that's suppression by any light."

But it isn't the illegal immigrants themselves defrauding. It's politicians doing it. So how would my showing ID at the polling place counter that?

Wow! I NEVER have been asked to provide ID at the polling place. I've even offered and was told no. My name was checked off on the big list.

Here in bluest of blue NY ,they make us sign our name into a log book that has a duplicate of the last signature provided the last time we voted. The poll watchers look at the signature for obvious discrepencies. Sometimes they will ask for secondary documents.

Here in bluest of blue NY ,they make us sign our name into a log book that has a duplicate of the last signature provided the last time we voted. The poll watchers look at the signature for obvious discrepencies. Sometimes they will ask for secondary documents.
What about absentee ballots? Signature on the application? That's the case in Illinois.

But it isn't the illegal immigrants themselves defrauding. It's politicians doing it. So how would my showing ID at the polling place counter that?

The argument at the moment is voter fraud, does that not count? If Joe Schmoe had to prove he was those 11 people he voted as fraudulently, he'd have to have 11 IDs would he not?

Every one of your objections has been put to rest, so give it up dude. Hello again, Steve:

Let's get real.. Did I expect that you'd be able to come up with ISOLATED cases of voter fraud?? Of course, I did. Does it change the thrust of my argument?? Of course, it doesn't.

Here's a link of my own: in this voter ID study (http://www.policymic.com/articles/6319/voter-id-laws-study-voter-fraud-even-rarer-than-the-odds-of-winning-mega-millions), voter fraud is even RARER than the odds of winning Mega Millions

excon

But is wasn't Joe. It was Blagojevich and thousands of voter names.

Lol Named after Associate Justice William J Brennan, Jr.;one of the most radical progressive members of the Supreme Court in history. Sort of gives you an idea of their slant. From WIKI Justice Brennan's idea of a living constitution figures largely into the center's work

If you look at the cartoon added to their report ,you can clearly see that they had preconceived outcome in mind.
The Truth About Fraud (http://www.truthaboutfraud.org/)

Hello again, Steve:

Let's get real.. Did I expect that you'd be able to come up with ISOLATED cases of voter fraud??? Of course, I did. Does it change the thrust of my argument???? Of course, it doesn't.

Here's a link of my own: in this voter ID study (http://www.policymic.com/articles/6319/voter-id-laws-study-voter-fraud-even-rarer-than-the-odds-of-winning-mega-millions), voter fraud is even RARER than the odds of winning Mega Millions

excon

Did I not make myself clear? One fraudulent vote cancels my legitimate vote. Works that way for you too, buddy. You may not care if your vote counts or not but I do.

I wanted to count on you to keep your word but no, you keep changing the terms.

Did I not make myself clear? One fraudulent vote cancels my legitimate vote. Works that way for you too, buddy. You may not care if your vote counts or not but I do. Hello again, Steve:

We're on the same page. It bums me out too, when, and or/if somebody casts a fraudulent vote in opposition to mine. But, when the cure cancels out the vote of many hundreds of thousands of legitimate voters, on balance, I'd be willing to suffer the loss of just mine.

excon

I believe tom has already answered those objections quite thoroughly, so now we're back to square one?

I believe tom has already answered those objections quite thoroughly, so now we're back to square one?Hello again, Steve:

He did?? What did he say? That poor people WITHOUT the proper ID can pick them up downtown? What's the big deal?? So what if you don't drive? You can learn - even if you're 85. It doesn't cost too much. So what if you don't have a birth certificate? You can get one, maybe..

Then there's the MAJORITY of the states that DO charge for the new ID on top of all those other hurdles... Nahhh... Many hundreds of thousands of American citizens will be DENIED their right to vote if these Jim Crow laws continue. That IS the intention of these laws. Either you KNOW it, or you're too ashamed to admit it.

So, if tom addressed it somewhere, I'm addressing it back.

excon

I already linked to their ability to get an id mail order . Yes I've answered all the objections.. For at least Pennsylania... your concerns are misplaced . I have not reseached every other state . My solution would be a national photo id... but I understand that in our system ;States run elections and are permitted to make rules ,that don't violate the voting rights act . If this law is unconstitutional take it to court . Have Holder file charges .

Give me the state you want me to research and I'll get back to you on the charge that the Majority of them have no provisions for free photo id. Your posting was about PA. I gave you all the facts about PA and threw in RI for a bonus.

Right, so Artur Davis, noted black Democrat formerly representing Alabama's 7the district in the House, changed his mind and is now FOR Jim Crow laws.

You drank the koolaid, come on - admit it.

Been voting since 1978 and have always had to present one or the other. Then they check me off the big list. I don't get what the big deal is.

I think Metts put his finger on the big deal .

"Historically, when Black people know the rules of the game they follow them to the letter and participate in the process. I take exception to those who give credence to stereotypes about our alleged inability or limited intelligence to participate in the democratic process. Moreover, as a candidate, I will make certain that those supporting me have a voter I.D. or know about the provisional ballot."
.

Yes sir, It's just like the life of Julia - poor thing just can't make it without the government's help. Voter ID laws just might let the cat out of the bag that blacks aren't as helpless as their Democrat masters keep telling them they are.

Right, so Artur Davis, noted black Democrat formerly representing Alabama's 7the district in the House, changed his mind and is now FOR Jim Crow laws. Hello again, Steve:

I've admonished you before about bolstering your arguments with obscure people. In this internet age, you can find ANY nut willing to say ANY nutty thing..

From MY point of view, it doesn't bolster anything. Besides, you're from the south. Haven't you heard of plantation overseer's. They're black people who SUPPORTED Jim Crow laws during slavery. Why couldn't this guy be doing it now?

excon

Artur Davis is now obscure and an uncle Tom.. I get it . That's what happens to any black person who doesn't toe the progressive line.

Here's the Wiki bio of obscure Art Davis
Artur Genestre Davis (born October 9, 1967) is a former Democratic Party member of the United States House of Representatives for Alabama's 7th congressional district, serving from 2003 to 2011. Davis was a candidate for Alabama's Democratic Gubernatorial Primary, 2010, but lost the Democratic primary to Ron Sparks. In December 2011, he left the Democratic party to become an independent, and he confirmed in May 2012 that he was considering running for Congress as a Republican.[1] In 2012 he became a visiting fellow at the Harvard Institute of Politics.

That's what happens to any black person who doesn't toe the progressive line.Hello again, tom:

You bring up people who vote against their own interests as proof that they're NOT voting against their own interests. I'm simply suggesting that they are.

excon

BuzzFeed Editor Ben Smith said "Artur Davis's voice is a pretty meaningful one in this debate (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1011/Davis_shifts_on_voter_ID.html)." He's right, he's not "obscure people."

P.S. I live in the Texas panhandle, there are no plantations.

P.P.S. Just admit, no amount of proof that you're wrong will convince you to keep your word and support voter ID laws.

Why are voter ID laws needed?

And again, back to square one. SMH...

Hello again, tom:

Nahhh. You distort. I've stated many times here, that I don't want anybody voting who doesn't have the RIGHT to vote.

In fact, All I've EVER asked for here, is EVIDENCE that people ARE voting who DON'T have the right to vote. However, you NEVER show any, because there ISN'T any.

Here's how it works in this great land of ours, FIRST off we notice that a crime has been committed. SECOND off, we make laws against it. What we DON'T do, is makeup that somebody is doing something, and make a law against it.

So, unless you present EVIDENCE that LAWS need to be passed to protect the integrity of the vote, it's clear that your intention is to suppress the vote.

excon

Here is some you might want to take a look at. From yesterdays headlines up until today's.

http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=691

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/224984/illegal-voting/hans-von-spakovsky

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/12/voter_fraud_for_the_complete_idiot.html

Who is registering illegals?

Another interesting note, Artur Davis was the guy who gave Obama's nominating speech at the 2008 Democratic convention. Now he's just an obscure Uncle Tom?

Who is registering illegals?

One of the articles Cal links to provides the answer :


The weaknesses of the current registration system are to blame. First, in order to make registration easier, federal laws do not require proof of citizenship when registering, and states routinely offer registration to anyone getting a driver's license, regardless of citizenship. Moreover, federal agencies in charge of immigration and customs enforcement refuse to comply with a federal law that requires them to cooperate with election officials in checking the citizenship status of registered voters. Overall, this amounts to an “honor” system — expecting immigrants, including those who broke the law to come here, to obey the law.

And even if an illegal alien would normally follow the rules, federal law provides an incentive for him to register to vote: Voter-registration cards, obtainable after a limited or no identification check, can be used to verify legal work status. They can also help when it comes to drivers' licenses.
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/224984/illegal-voting/hans-von-spakovsky

Sounds like a short path to citizenship, if you have a voter registration card who is going to question if you are a citizen?

Hello again,

Steve talks about his vote not being canceled out by an illegal vote. I agree with him. Where I DISAGREE is in disenfranchising a HALF MILLION registered voters so he can feel good about his ONE vote.

That's what's happening in Pennsylvania. That's what this video (http://thegrio.com/2012/06/26/mike-turzai-voter-id-will-help-mitt-romney-gop-win-pennsylvania/)confirms.

Rumor has it, that Roberts WANTS an opportunity to OVERTURN the provision in the Voters Rights Act of 1965 that protects minorities rights to vote. That'll suck.

excon

You think because the media spins (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57467195-503544/stringent-voter-id-law-in-pa-could-prevent-750000-from-voting/) that "758,939 voters...could not be matched in state databases as having Pennsylvania driver's licenses" that a half million people are going to be denied their vote?

That's just one form of ID and tom has already shown there is no burden on voters to obtain an ID. I realize asking citizens to take responsibility for themselves is so passé, but face it, if some PA voter is prohibited from voting it's their own fault.

The part of the Voting Rights Act that is currently going through the court system is Section 5 .Section 5 requires several southern states to get federal “pre-clearance” before they change any voting eligibility laws or voting requirements or procedures. It is a part of the act that needs Congressional renewal periodically .In 2006 it was extended for 25 years. . Why wasn't it a permanent part of the law ? Because the authors of the Voting Rights act envisioned a day when the section would not be needed.

The question then becomes ,is it still needed ? It has nothing to do with the voter id issue in PA
.
But it is worthy of discussion.
John Roberts in 'Northwest Austin Municipal Utility District No. One v. Holder' opined ,in the majority opinion that upheld the Voting Rights Act ,that Section 5 was of questionable Constitutionality . He warned Congress to fix it before another case reaches SCOTUS . (note he did not rewrite the law like he did with Obamacare ) .

The case in Kingston NC is an interesting case . The city approved by a huge 2:1 margin ,a referendum for a nonpartisan ballot .Party affiliation of the candidates would not be identified on the ballot . Sec 5 says that any change like that has to be approved by the DOJ . Last year, Holder refused to approve the referendum stating that “elimination of party affiliation on the ballot will likely reduce the ability of blacks to elect candidates of choice.” HUH ? To that I restate Metts : "I take exception to those who give credence to stereotypes about our alleged inability or limited intelligence to participate in the democratic process."
The problem here is not racial discrimination... it is progressive paternalism.

But it also is a tool of the Dems. Redistricting is used by the majority party in all states for political advantage . I consider myself a victim of redistricting .My district was eliminated and the Dems did a ridiculous gerrymander to add my town into a district 2 counties away. I could claim that there were racial factors that went into the decision. But I don't . NY of course does not have to have it's redistricting approved by the DOJ because we know that NY politicians would never use issues of race for their advantage. But States that are now challenging the Sec 5 provisions think that the time for the need of the provision are long gone ;and the Sec itself has always been unconstitutional under the 5th ,14th ,and 15th amendments .

If indeed this was about fair elections and integrity, then the proper transition period would have been considered, and a fair thoughtful process would have been arranged to help those with difficulties or needs be guided through the process.

Not a big push to purge and obstruct voters from exercising their rights. Look I agree with EVERY American having an ID. Not just for voting but for all the modern transactions people do in modern day life. Including catching a bus to work.

But seeing as how the Bush election was so totally screwed up, and the fears of conservatives about what ifs, maybes, then this push to get a law in place in time for THIS election, just smells rotten. Like point shaving, except with the rights of people.

Given that PA repubs have admitted what their agenda is, as this is an old story, and they have been trying for two years to nullify PA voters, maybe accommodation, and education instead of obstacles would be in order.

Sometimes its not what you do, its how, and slow moving republicans who move very fast in one direction is nothing but fear, which they magnified in there own minds.

Why else would you as a lawmaker enact laws that years of research and data says that the probability of voter fraud is so low that the governor of PA never prosecuted one case when he was the states attorney?

The real agenda is clear for the conservatives, make any excuse to subvert the rights of others, and then blame them. Now maybe not ALL the conservatives are so scared of the changing world, but the ones that are make a lot of noise.

Sorry guys, but these shenanigans are going on in nearly every state that has gone red, on many issues across the board. That's a lot of effort to elect a guy who was like the last guy you sent to Washington, but on steroids. No wonder you exaggerate and lie about the guy we sent to the White House.

If indeed this was about fair elections and integrity, then the proper transition period would have been considered, and a fair thoughtful process would have been arranged to help those with difficulties or needs be guided through the process.
Tal ,arrangements have been made as I've documented already. However ,you make a valid point with the transition period.

The rest of your rant is too ridiculous .

The rest of your rant is too rediculous .
Proper Spelling of "Ridiculous" (http://www.ilovemyjournal.com/?action=view_entry&eid=4639)

Glad you found something useful to do on these boards .

Thanks man. I'm sure my 8661 rep score to your 1746 rep score means nothing. But try to put me down some more, that's how the 'right' seems to function with people of differing opinions.

You corrected that many spelling errors ?

Oddly enough, no. :D I help people; on boards that allow ratings. Do you?

Tal ,arrangements have been made as I've documented already. However ,you make a valid point with the transition period.

The rest of your rant is too ridiculous .

Almost as ridicules as the as the house taking another symbolic vote to repeal the ACA law, or the relentless republican end run to subvert the rights to an abortion. Or the hostage taking of American well being by refusing to compromise at all on any useful legislation to move the country forward.

I marvel at the legislative unity of the republican party, but I am disgusted by the results. So is the rest of the country, as your efforts to save your country have been exposed as a tactic to gain power by the plutocrats and destroy the will of the people by destroying the middle class. Now that's truly ridicules.

You guys, the republicans, yes even the fair minded among you, have sunk pretty low to funnel wealth and power to the few as the many suffer from your actions. Even the common republicans like yourself and Speech, seem to have no clue as to how you are being used by the loony tunes of your far right and the monied interest that exploits your fears to their own ends, at your expense.

Its easy to rant and rave about the ridicules lock step manner that you guys do business, and how far you would go to accomplish your own agenda, at the expense of the general welfare of the people.

This is turning the best republic in history into nothing but a third rate dictatorship. History tells us that most great nations are destroyed from within, and you guys are paying no heed to the it.

Its okay for you to pontificate your truth, but ridicules when I do the same? That's ridicules.

Something else that's really ridicules,

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2838719/posts


"The blind trust is an age-old ruse," Romney told the Boston Globe in October of that year. "You give a blind trust rules. You can say to a blind trust, don't invest in properties which would be in conflict of interest or where the seller might think they're going to get an advantage from me."

All this effort to scrub this guy and present him as the savior will fail. But your efforts fit the mold of wanting some elite plutocrat to worship,and pay homage to.

Almost as ridicules as the as the house taking another symbolic vote to repeal the ACA law,
Yes ;we'll see some ridiculous Dems voting with the Repubics because they are concerned about their reelection prospects .

This is turning the best republic in history into nothing but a third rate dictatorship. History tells us that most great nations are destroyed from within, and you guys are paying no heed to the it.

Oh we are well aware how the "progressive " agenda is destroying the foundation of the nation. Your rhetoric has little difference in substance than that of Hugo Chavez .

Oddly enough, no. :D I help people; on boards that allow ratings. Do you?

When I'm inclinded to do so. I don' t obsess over trivial matters like who has more 'reputation'

Niether do I. That's whi I've refuzed to become and 'Expert'.

Oh we are well aware how the "progressive " agenda is destroying the foundation of the nation.
Nope, the "progressive agenda" has nothing to do with it. The taking over of your country by corporations is what's killing whatever one believes is this nebulous "foundation" is.

Oh we are well aware how the "progressive " agenda is destroying the foundation of the nation. Your rhetoric has little difference in substance than that of Hugo Chavez .

Whether you like it or not, our great nation is making adjustments that have to be made to grow. As to my rhetoric, its no worse than the noise by the right, but with less fear, and gloom, and doom!

Haven't you noticed?

Thanks man. I'm sure my 8661 rep score to your 1746 rep score means nothing. But go ahead and try to put me down some more, that's how the 'right' seems to function with people of differing opinions.

Who gives a rat's a$$ about score? You're supposed to help others with no expectation of return.

Who gives a rat's a$$ about score? You're supposed to help others with no expectation of return.

Agreed. But he was trying to say that I didn't do anything useful on this website so that was a way to show him that was untrue.
Nice language though.

I don't know but I imagine he meant doing something useful on the current events forum - besides acting as the language monitor.

Hello again,

Eric Holder (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/10/eric-holder-voter-id-poll-tax_n_1662847.html?utm_source=DailyBrief&utm_campaign=071112&utm_medium=email&utm_content=FeaturePhoto&utm_term=Daily%20Brief), our esteemed Attorney General, thinks these voter ID laws are poll taxes. He's RIGHT, and hopefully he can STOP 'em.

excon

I don't know but I imagine he meant doing something useful on the current events forum - besides acting as the language monitor.'Cause I gave him the correct spelling once? That would be a stretch. I guess I need to remember how sensitive some people are.

Nice of you and the AG to play the race card.

Nice of you and the AG to play the race card.Hello again, Steve:

Scuze me... Bwa, ha ha ha ha.

excon

'Cause I gave him the correct spelling once? That would be a stretch. I guess I need to remember how sensitive some people are.

"Nice language though."

I see a pattern.

Hello again, Steve:

Scuze me... Bwa, ha ha ha ha.

excon

So intentionally firing up blacks with no - zero - evidence to back it up isn't playing the race card?

Poll taxes usually mean some money involved . The only money involved in Pa is the tax- payers footing the bill for free photo id's .

Hello again,

Eric Holder (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/10/eric-holder-voter-id-poll-tax_n_1662847.html?utm_source=DailyBrief&utm_campaign=071112&utm_medium=email&utm_content=FeaturePhoto&utm_term=Daily%20Brief), our esteemed Attorney General, thinks these voter ID laws are poll taxes. He's RIGHT, and hopefully he can STOP 'em.

excon

Earlier today Holder addressed the NAACP What did media need in order to attend? That's right, government issued photo identification ;and a second form of identification too.

Poll taxes usually mean some money involved . Hello again, tom:

He wasn't addressing Pennsylvania specifically. Plus, as you mentioned it's not one of the southern states that require monitoring..

But, as noted in my many posts, not ALL the states that require the new ID's are GIVING them away for free. Plus, they need to REPORT to get it, and that ain't free in ANYBODY'S book. Then if they don't have the required ID, they have to PAY to get one...

That's a poll tax.

excon

... and they have to GO somewhere to get the ID.

Hello again, Carol:

In Texas, (http://thinkprogress.org/tag/voter-id/)a gun license is an accepted form of voter ID, but a STUDENT ID isn't.

Since students are more likely to vote for Obama, and gun owners aren't, it looks like there's an attempt to suppress the student vote... Now, I COULD be wrong... But, I ain't.

There doesn't even seem to be a pretext here either. It's BLATANT. The only ones who can't see it, are our resident right wingers.

excon

Dear excon:

Just out of curiosity, why would a student photo ID be unacceptable? I missed out on the explanation for that.

Carol

Please tell me which state doesn't have them for free . Texas has a free id provision ,so does Georgia .Not sure about Florida ,but if you don't have a photo id ;you are given a ballot that is valid if your signature matches your voter registration card (same provisions as New York) .
I keep looking for all this voter suppression and I don't see it .

Dear excon:

Just out of curiosity, why would a student photo ID be unacceptable? I missed out on the explanation for that.

Carol

Does a student ID give your permanent address ? If I'm registered in NY why should I expect to be allowed to vote in Texas ?

I can vote only at my own polling place and nowhere else. If I'm visiting my mother in western NY in November and want to vote, I'm out of luck.

Just looked at my student ID card from grad school -- shows photo, name, signature, DOB, SS#, school name/address, degree being worked on, and my school ID#.

First it's a "poll tax" and Thinkprogress says "Romney Supports Voter ID Laws That Could Disenfranchise 25% Of African-Americans".

No hyperbole there, eh?

The student IDs I've seen here are just a photo that says you're a student at that school. I could be from anywhere.

The student IDs I've seen here are just a photo that says you're a student at that school. I could be from anywhere.
High school? College? Maybe you need to get out more?

High school? College? Maybe you need to get out more?

Maybe you should cease the condescension?

Dogs, dead people get election docs from nonprofit (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2018684401_voterforms14.html)


The voter registration form arrived in the mail last month with some key information already filled in: Rosie Charlston's name was complete, as was her Seattle address.

Problem is, Rosie was a black lab who died in 1998.

A group called the Voter Participation Center has touted the distribution of some 5 million registration forms in recent weeks, targeting Democratic-leaning voting blocs such as unmarried women, blacks, Latinos and young adults.

But residents and election administrators across the country also have reported a series of bizarre and questionable mailings addressed to animals, dead people, noncitizens and people already registered to vote.

Brenda Charlston wasn't the only person to get documents for her pet: A Virginia man said similar documents arrived for his dead dog, Mozart, while a woman in the state received forms for her cat, Scampers.

"On a serious note," Charlston said, "I think it's tampering with our voting system. They're fishing for votes: That's how I view it."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2012/07/13/2018684148.jpg

No, we don't need no stinkni' ID to vote, any ol' dog, cat, dead guy or non-citizen should have their say. Twice even.

Maybe you should cease the condescension?
No condescension. Sorry you read it like that. I dug out my college (undergrad) ID -- college name and address, date of issue. Photo, sig, birthdate, college ID#, and that was in the mid '60s. A student ID with photo and sig is not good enough to prove that 's the person who wants to vote? Why not?

Problem is, Rosie was a black lab who died in 1998.

A group called the Voter Participation Center has touted the distribution of some 5 million registration forms in recent weeks, targeting Democratic-leaning voting blocs such as unmarried women, blacks, Latinos and young adults.

Maybe they thought Rosie the black lab was black.

Hello again, Steve:

Nobody said that aren't obscure cased of voter fraud... However, given the tradeoff of disenfranchising MILLIONS of eligible voters, to eliminate SEVERAL cases of voter fraud, I'll take the most REASONABLE position... If you couldn't guess, that's NOT your position.

Since it's UNREASONABLE to suggest that MILLIONS of people give up their right to vote for NONSENSICAL reasons, I suggest the REAL reason is voter suppression.

excon

Hello again, Steve:

Nobody said that aren't obscure cased of voter fraud... However, given the tradeoff of disenfranchising MILLIONS of eligible voters, to eliminate SEVERAL cases of voter fraud, I'll take the most REASONABLE position... If you couldn't guess, that's NOT your position.

Since it's UNREASONABLE to suggest that MILLIONS of people give up their right to vote for NONSENSICAL reasons, I suggest the REAL reason is voter suppression.

excon

Targeting dead people and dogs is obscured? The more I show fraud and attempts at it the more you dig your heels in. Bull you know what.

Again, if Rosie gets to vote I am the one disenfranchised - not that poor black lady that had to get a free ID.

No condescension. Sorry you read it like that. I dug out my college (undergrad) ID -- college name and address, date of issue. photo, sig, birthdate, college ID#, and that was in the mid '60s. A student ID with photo and sig is not good enough to prove that 's the person who wants to vote? Why not?

This ain't the '60s. A college ID around here is a name, a pic and a bar code. The student could be from anywhere - Oklahoma, Illinois, Italy or Finland. It proves nothing in the way of citizenship.

The more I show fraud and attempts at it the more you dig your heels in. Bull you know what.Hello again, Steve:


During the Bush administration, (http://www.salon.com/2007/03/21/us_attorneys_2/) a rhetorical tool became public policy. The Republicans could not get a photo ID law through the Senate, but they were able to enlist the 93 United States attorneys in their crusade against voter fraud. In 2002, then-Attorney General John Ashcroft announced an initiative that required “all components of the [Justice] Department” to “place a high priority on the investigation and prosecution of election fraud.”

Five years later, Ashcroft’s initiative hasn’t produced all that much in the way of convictions, at least relative to the overall Department of Justice caseload. Prosecutions for electoral fraud remain a minuscule part of the federal criminal docket. In 2002 alone, there were 80,424 criminal cases concluded nationwide in the 94 U.S. District Courts. By comparison, according to a DOJ document, between the fall of 2002 and the fall of 2005, there were only 95 defendants charged with federal election-fraud-related crimes in the whole country.

NOBODY wants somebody to vote who isn't qualified to vote. But, to disenfranchise MILLIONS of eligible voters to stop, what amounts to MINIMAL crime, is OVERKILL. There's SOMETHING else going on, it's voter suppression. I don't know WHY you can't see it... Actually, I think you can, but you KNOW that Romney CAN'T win unless you guys do this. So, it's all done with a wink and a nod - I mean who wants illegal people to vote??

Excon

This ain't the '60s. A college ID around here is a name, a pic and a bar code. The student could be from anywhere - Oklahoma, Illinois, Italy or Finland. It proves nothing in the way of citizenship.
I was comparing my college ID card from back when to my more recent college ID card I had mentioned in an earlier post in this thread. That shows college ID cards haven't changed in over 40 years. The student's sig isn't on the ID card you are referring to? It should be or it's a pretty lame ID process that particular college is using. A college ID card is used for some pretty major transactions, not all of which are on campus. The important thing on college ID cards is the student's signature.

What I see here is that someone has found a class of voter who might have more sense than the general electorate

Try and Fathom the hypocrisy of a Government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Edit.. posted this on the wrong question.. although it could apply

I was comparing my college ID card from back when to my more recent college ID card I had mentioned in an earlier post in this thread. That shows college ID cards haven't changed in over 40 years. The student's sig isn't on the ID card you are referring to? It should be or it's a pretty lame ID process that particular college is using. A college ID card is used for some pretty major transactions, not all of which are on campus. The important thing on college ID cards is the student's signature.

I know what you're referring to, I get out a lot. A signature does not prove citizenship, even Fins can sign their name.

I know what you're referring to, I get out a lot. A signature does not prove citizenship, even Fins can sign their name.
Yes,but if they already have my signature in front of them (the way it's done in Illinois), that will prove I am that person--or they can have me sign right there in person.

If you were honest,you would admit they wanted laws in place for THIS election because it serves a purpose, theirs, to throw up obstacles NOW. How do I know? Why else would they be in such a rush while they have power?

Even after a guy admitted that's was the purpose, a republican win, you still deny it.

Try and Fathom the hypocrisy of a Government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured ... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

edit ..posted this on the wrong question ..although it could apply

So now you are down to every citizen proving they are a citizen because theoretically only citizens can vote. How did those dogs get on the electoral role or are they canine citizens?

That they are there is evidence that voter fraud happens. We are supposed to believe that the ones that are caught are the only incidents when it happens. There are people who have demonstrated how easy it is to commit voter fraud . In one recent demonstration ,a man ,with very little effort ,was provided with the ballot for Eric Holder ;and could've cast a vote in his name.

The ultimate excuse, S*** happens, I don't think I'll take this any further

If that were the case,explain why the guy in the OP said what he said about this being a way for Romney to win the election?

I don't discount that angle of this discussion, nor do I ignore the implication that voter fraud is a democratic thing, or that its justified questioning the rights of millions.

Come on, if this is the best you can do, It could be done better.

Yes,but if they already have my signature in front of them (the way it's done in Illinois), that will prove I am that person--or they can have me sign right there in person.

I can sign my wife's and my daughter's name no problem. No one could sign yours?

If that were the case,explain why the guy in the OP said what he said about this being a way for Romney to win the election?

I don't discount that angle of this discussion, nor do I ignore the implication that voter fraud is a democratic thing, or that its justified questioning the rights of millions.

Come on, if this is the best you can do, It could be done better.

You say it's because Thelma is being disenfranchised by having to get a free ID while we say it's because Joseph Cheeseboro and Joseph Cheeseborough who both live in apt 711 at the 7-Eleven store on South Broad won't get to vote.

Free ID or fake voters (http://articles.philly.com/2012-01-29/news/30676153_1_defelice-list-uptown-theater)? I don't think the choice is that difficult.

Hello again, wingers:

As honest brokers of the truth, the lefty's here admit there IS some voter fraud.. How much, we don't know... YOU don't know either.. You SPECULATE.

Should these laws be implemened, LOTS of otherwise eligible voters WILL be thrown off the rolls. When it was reported in PA that it would be up 750,000 people, you called it spin. But, you don't know. Certainly, when all the states are taken into account, we're talking about MILLIONS of voters...

So, what I want to ask you is this; do you even CONSIDER that voter suppression MIGHT be a factor behind the push for ID's?

excon

NOBODY wants somebody to vote who isn't qualified to vote. But, to disenfranchise MILLIONS of eligible voters...

What MILLIONS? What body orifice are you pulling these numbers from??

Personally, I don't care if one person is "disenfranchised" by having to lift a finger to finally get an ID, it's the right thing to do to maintain the integrity of our elections. Perhaps if you lefties would stop treating people as if they're too stupid and helpless to do anything we could get somewhere in this country.

maintain the integrity of our elections
What did I miss? When did its integrity become compromised?

I can sign my wife's and my daughter's name no problem. No one could sign yours?
Nope.

Perhaps if you lefties would stop treating people as if they're too stupid and helpless to do anything we could get somewhere in this country.Hello again, Steve:

Dude! It's wingers like YOU who think poor people are stupid and helpless. See, smoothy's posts... Nope. These are POOR people. I know you don't understand this, but requiring them to jump through these hoops will have the effect of DISENFRANCHISING them. It's got NOTHING to do with intelligence or helplessness. It's got to do with MONEY.. Gas to town might cost two days meals...

You guys have NO clue what that's about... WORSE than that, you don't even PRETEND to understand about the poor. To YOU, these people are STUPID and HELPLESS... The TRUTH is out...

excon

And how will "these people" find out they need ID until they show up to vote and are turned away? (That's the hope, isn't it!) They can't afford computers or even a subscription to the newspaper or news magazines, probably don't spend hours watching TV (if they even have one), live in an insular community where day-to-day survival is the topic of conversation. Low IQ? no. Uninformed? Yes.

LOL!! What do you expect from the pee on my head and call it prosperity crowd? We see how supply with no demand works, so do they! Except they like it like that, we don't.

They know their guy will pee on their head, that's what they want, and they want us to like it too! The can't figure out why, and that's blowing their brains.

jump through these hoops ??
The only thing they don't do in PA is send a stretch limo to escort the people to pick up their ID . Geeze... I understand that the left doesn't think people should take any responsibility unto themselves (note the new welfare decree ) .But come on! Nothing disenfrancises anyone who is eligible to vote. All it means is taking the minimal effort necessary to do it .

All it means is taking the minimal effort necessary to do it .Hello again, tom:

??

The thing you righty's DON'T understand, is that minimal effort for YOU, is a major undertaking for the poor. Many don't have cars.. Many don't have drivers licenses.. Many live 100's of miles from where they have to report. Many don't have birth certificates, and don't have the money to get one.

I really don't know why these facts don't penetrate the right wing brain. The more you guys call them STUPID and UNABLE or UNWILLING to undertake a MINIMAL effort, the MORE you lose the debate...

excon

PS> The more I think about it, these facts DO penetrate the right wing brain.. You know that voter suppression IS the REASON you're doing it, but you'll go on spinning it to your grave...

All it means is taking the minimal effort necessary to do it .

Or stretching limited resources to new limits. You didn't care about people making choices between medication, and food so this is no different. But the point is moot, since placing obstacles to the exercise of the right to vote is an old story.

My objection is not the goal, but the process that's suspect of right wing games, and agendas. Wish people from the affected areas would tell us of their experience to meet the letter of the law so we can have real facts and not right wing self rigtheous BS!!

Maybe they are foregoing government assistance too ? How do they get that without proper ID ?


How to Apply for a Welfare ProgramTo apply for a welfare program one must contact the local Human Service Department located in the government pages of the phone book. It may be listed as Human Services, Family Services or Adult and Family Services. An appointment is made with a case worker. The case worker will give a list of required documents needed at the appointment. Common documents asked for are proof of income, ID, and utility bills or other proof of residency.

US Welfare System - Help for US Citizens (http://www.welfareinfo.org/)

And if you think that is just a Federal Requirement... wrong again. Most State ;including bluest of blue California require valid id for government assistance .

Documents to Bring to Interview
If you have a face-to-face interview, please bring verification with you of your income and expenses. If you cannot get all the information together by your interview date, still come for the interview because you will have additional time to provide this information. If you need assistance in obtaining this information, please discuss this with your CalFresh worker at the time of the interview. The following are examples of what to bring:

Proof of identity (driver's license, etc.), alien status.
Social Security Numbers for all household members.
If employed, proof of income (wage stubs, earning statements, etc.) for the past 30 days.
Bank statements for checking accounts, savings accounts, certificates of deposit, credit union accounts, retirement accounts, stocks, bonds, dividends, etc.
Proof of shelter costs (rent or mortgage payment, lot rent, household, real estate, taxes, utility bills – heat, electricity, water/sewage/garbage, telephone, etc.)
How to Apply for CalFresh Benefits (http://www.calfresh.ca.gov/PG847.htm#list)

Yes EVEN IN ILLINOIS you need proper id for government assistance .

The application process begins the day your DHS office receives your signed application. You will be asked to come to the office for an interview or participate by phone if you are unable to come to the office.

You will be asked for various types of documents such as:

proof of your identity
Proof of your residence
Proof of Social Security numbers for all people on your application
Other types of documents depending on your circumstances.
The DHS caseworker will tell you what you need to bring.


DHS: Apply For Cash, SNAP (Food Stamps) & Medical Assistance (http://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?item=33698)

So what are you saying now... that these poor people who don't have an ability to obtain a valid id for voting are also being denied government assistance ?

Nope.

Wrong.

What did I miss? When did its integrity become compromised?

Start from page 1 (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/voter-id-suppression-678733.html).

Hello again, Steve:

Dude! It's wingers like YOU who think poor people are stupid and helpless. See, smoothy's posts... Nope. These are POOR people. I know you don't understand this, but requiring them to jump through these hoops will have the effect of DISENFRANCHISING them. It's got NOTHING to do with intelligence or helplessness. It's got to do with MONEY.. Gas to town might cost two days meals...

You guys have NO clue what that's about... WORSE than that, you don't even PRETEND to understand about the poor. To YOU, these people are STUPID and HELPLESS... The TRUTH is out...

excon

First of all I'm not Smoothy so don't profile me because of him.

Secondly, don't feed us that BS that I have "no clue." You think I live La Jolla? I showed you the pictures of my neighborhood, I've told you all for YEARS that I live among the minorities and you KNOW I regularly support children who have NOTHING. So if anyone can get all righteous about POOR people it's ME but that's not my style and I have far more respect for them than that.

So cut the crap already, if you want to play class warfare I'm game because with the poor is where I live. Where the heck are you Mr Businessman?

I've told you all for YEARS that I live among the minorities Hello again, Steve:

Yeah, I've heard that before.. You forget. I'm Jewish. Everybody's best friend is a Jew. But somebody's lying, cause there ain't enough of us to go around.

Nonetheless, because you choose to LIVE among the poor does not mean you support programs that benefit the poor. I don't know why. They're your neighbors.

excon

Yeah, I've heard that before.. You forget. I'm Jewish. Everybody's best friend is a Jew. But somebody's lying, cause there ain't enough of us to go around.

Nonetheless, because you choose to LIVE among the poor does not mean you support programs that benefit the poor. I dunno why. They're your neighbors.

excon

Again, I'm calling you on your BS. You ain't got a leg to stand on with me in this no matter how many different ways you try to discredit me and spin your way out.

Again, I'm calling you on your BS. You ain't got a leg to stand on with me in this no matter how many different ways you try to discredit me and spin your way out.
Do your neighbors all know they will have to show ID at the polling place? If some don't have the proper ID, are you going to help them get it?

Nope.

Wrong.
I have two identifying quirks in my writing (that looks like the handwriting cards your teachers posted above the blackboard). Plus, should I worry that a Romney fan is going to commit voter fraud using my signature?

African American State Rep (Dem RI) Harold M. Metts wrote in his op-ed explaining why he sponsored the photo-id bill in RI :


For decades many of us have heard complaints about voter fraud. My State Representative, Anastasia Williams, and her daughter, whom I represent in the Senate, had their vote stolen one election. There have been numerous anecdotal complaints that have spanned the last two decades that have been ignored. My question is, why are some so willing to sacrifice the voter integrity of our system on the altar of fear, while only being concerned about what may potentially happen?

I cannot accept the logic of those who dismiss this by saying that “there have been no formal complaints filed.” The old system was not set up to readily weed out fraud; and it would be very hard to prove. Moreover, winners on election night would soon forget about any fraud, while the losers’ concerns would be dismissed as sour grapes. We know that many rapes and other crimes go unreported. Does this mean that unreported rapes did not occur? We cannot allow the integrity of our system to be violated.

Letter: Why is Voter Integrity Still Being Ignored in RI? - Woonsocket, RI Patch (http://woonsocket.patch.com/articles/letter-why-is-voter-integrity-still-being-ignored-in-ri)

So yes ,it is possible someone could fraudulently steal your vote. If a State Rep had it done to her ,if Eric Holder potentially had his vote stolen in this year's primary,then it is very possible that incidents of voter fraud are happening in higher numbers than the actually cases it is proven .

Do your neighbors all know they will have to show ID at the polling place? If some don't have the proper ID, are you going to help them get it?

I already told you I have never, since 1978, been able to vote in my city/county without a DL or voter registration card. We're not the ones whining about having to prove you're eligible - we've been doing it all along.

I have a feeling people will overcome the obstacles, and time limit issues, and vote for who they feel is the best candidate.

Strange that, people having an opinion of their own

The number of plaintiffs is almost to 60 now. Hello again, Steve:

Talk about plaintiffs, you've got 60, we've got 1,000's...

Among them will be Wilola Shinholster Lee, (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/us/politics/tougher-voter-id-laws-set-off-court-battles.html?pagewanted=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120720) a 60-year-old retiree who was born in Georgia and has been unable to replace her birth certificate, which was lost in a house fire. Officials in Georgia told her that they too had suffered a fire and no longer had a record of her birth.

“I came here when I was 5 with my grandmother, who worked as a domestic,” Ms. Lee said. “She's 98 and doesn't have a photo ID either. She's upset because she loves Obama.”

And, people like Viviette Applewhite, now 93, who four years ago was making her way through her local Acme supermarket when a thief sliced her purse from its straps. A former hotel housekeeper, Ms. Applewhite, who never had a driver's license, was suddenly without a Social Security card. Adopted and twice married, she had several name changes over the years, so obtaining new documents was complicated. As a result, with Pennsylvania now requiring a state-approved form of photo identification to vote, Ms. Applewhite, a supporter of President Obama, may be forced to sit out November's election for the first time in decades.

I think we'll fare better in the courts than we did in the right wing legislatures, don't you?

excon

I don't know how you got from my post on the contraceptive mandate (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/birth-control-pills-640913-24.html#post3202843) to this but whatever. SCOTUS has already upheld (http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/supreme_court_upholds_voter_id_law/) photo ID voter laws 6-3.


It was the most important voting rights case since the Bush v. Gore dispute that sealed the 2000 election for George W. Bush. But the voter ID ruling lacked the conservative-liberal split that marked the 2000 case.

The law “is amply justified by the valid interest in protecting ‘the integrity and reliability of the electoral process,’” Justice John Paul Stevens said in an opinion that was joined by Chief Justice John Roberts and Anthony Kennedy.

I think we'll fare pretty well, Holder is just stirring up sh*t because that's what this administration does best.

Hello again, Steve:

Talk about plaintiffs, you've got 60, we've got 1,000's...

Among them will be Wilola Shinholster Lee, (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/us/politics/tougher-voter-id-laws-set-off-court-battles.html?pagewanted=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120720) a 60-year-old retiree who was born in Georgia and has been unable to replace her birth certificate, which was lost in a house fire. Officials in Georgia told her that they too had suffered a fire and no longer had a record of her birth.

“I came here when I was 5 with my grandmother, who worked as a domestic,” Ms. Lee said. “She’s 98 and doesn’t have a photo ID either. She’s upset because she loves Obama.”

And, people like Viviette Applewhite, now 93, who four years ago was making her way through her local Acme supermarket when a thief sliced her purse from its straps. A former hotel housekeeper, Ms. Applewhite, who never had a driver’s license, was suddenly without a Social Security card. Adopted and twice married, she had several name changes over the years, so obtaining new documents was complicated. As a result, with Pennsylvania now requiring a state-approved form of photo identification to vote, Ms. Applewhite, a supporter of President Obama, may be forced to sit out November’s election for the first time in decades.

I think we'll fare better in the courts than we did in the right wing legislatures, don't you?

excon

If this is true then I say shame on the democrats for not helping these poor people. Im sure somewhere near them is a democrat headquarters. You would think in the interest of getting out the vote they would be more then happy to help. Is it just republicans that take action and the dems that just want to sit and b**ch about it?

That's not fair since all of a sudden these new laws were thrown up, and not for voter fraud, but as a plan to trim the voter turnout. A republican in Pennsylvania said so. If this had been about fairness, and integrity of the system, there would be aid from the state to facilitate every ones rights in a much more comprehensive way.

Be it as it is there are many organized democrats and republicans helping to get those without the proper paper work eligible to register. Kind of a shame the repubs methods though to deny eligible voters their rights to stop a few from fraud.

I mean is that the best you guys can do? But this isn't the first time repubs have taken a reasonable idea, and made it into an unreasonable one.

Yet another case for the courts to decide I guess.

I find this debate somewhat seriel, in a society where voting is optional and voter turnout can be low, to be debating whether a particular individual has been disenfranchised is as we say "pissing in the wind""

to be debating whether a particular individual has been disenfranchised is as we say "pissing in the wind""Hello again, clete:

Maybe it was my Yankee accent. This isn't about a particular individual. This is about 100's of 1,000's of people.. The people I mentioned above are just EXAMPLES. You DO have that word over there, don't you?

excon

Hello again, clete:

Maybe it was my Yankee accent. This isn't about a particular individual. This is about 100's of 1,000's of people.. The people I mentioned above are just EXAMPLES. You DO have that word over there, don't you?

excon

Examples, Ex, yes, I have seen you have some horror stories, voting dogs, corpses, etc, picked up by the media, and it seems to me your problem would be solved by the issuing of a national identity card to all citizens and using this to establish a right to vote at polling booths, etc. sometimes you just have to put aside those states rights to get things done particularly when it is a civil liberty issue as the right to vote is.

You might wonder why I find this strange, but I come from a place where voting is compulsory and this isn't an imposition but a privilege and the responsibility for being on the electoral roll sits squarely on the individual. In other words if you put yourself on the roll you are going to vote, why else would you do it. Identification is on an honour system and it works well, very few hassles and very small % of voter fraud. It also takes us only hours to determine the result and this is without all the fancy hardware that seems to cause hassles.

Thats not fair since all of a sudden these new laws were thrown up, and not for voter fraud, but as a plan to trim the voter turnout. A republican in Pennsylvania said so.

He said no such thing.

Cal the Dems are very good at getting out the vote. Often in some Philladelphia districts it exceeds 100% of the registration rolls . That is what they are really objecting to.. the fact that any qualifications would be enforced.

I would love to see evidence of the fraud you keep talking about, but do question the methods and process employed by your putting qualifications in place. Maybe you don't intend hardship on those that are affected, but you don't address those hardships effectively either.

I mean ID cards even though they are supposed to be free in some areas have been anything but, and there has been enough evidence to support the fact that its been more a hardship than the problem it addresses, voter fraud!

Lack of follow through may be at the heart of this, as improper support of enacting such a law as requiring an ID without addressing underlying conditions of access which defeats the very purpose of the law.

Everyone should have an ID in today's world, with today's technology, I agree with that part, but to address the individual issues that has manifested itself requires the state to do more than just pass legislation.

This isn't left/right! But its easy to say its idealogical, and agenda driven, and undermines the importance of such a transition. I mean to throw out the baby with the bath water, is not an effective means of cleaning the tub.

I would love to see evidence of the fraud you keep talking about, but do question the methods and process employed by your putting qualifications in place. Maybe you don't intend hardship on those that are affected, but you don't address those hardships effectively either.

I mean ID cards even though they are supposed to be free in some areas have been anything but, and there has been enough evidence to support the fact that its been more a hardship than the problem it addresses, voter fraud!

Lack of follow thru may be at the heart of this, as improper support of enacting such a law as requiring an ID without addressing underlying conditions of access which defeats the very purpose of the law.

Everyone should have an ID in todays world, with todays technology, I agree with that part, but to address the individual issues that has manifested itself requires the state to do more than just pass legislation.

This isn't left/right! But its easy to say its idealogical, and agenda driven, and undermines the importance of such a transition. I mean to throw out the baby with the bath water, is not an effective means of cleaning the tub.

Tom addressed the hardships and we've both showed the fraud. You have no more excuses.

Its no excuse to point out that hardshipping almost a million people to stop a very few criminals is a good idea. And its no excuse to point out that your flaws need to be corrected, or adjusted.

Its no excuse right wing fears ruin your common sense and prevent you from seeing reality. Its sad really because the solutions and adjustments are fairly simple.

Its no excuse to point out that hardshipping almost a milion people to stop a very few criminals is a good idea. And its no excuse to point out that your flaws need to be corrected, or adjusted.

Its no excuse right wing fears ruin your common sense and prevent you from seeing reality. Its sad really because the solutions and adjustments are fairly simple.

Fallacy. Deal with facts. You like facts don't you?

Hello again,

Let me ask you this.. Let's say, like Florida in 2000, the entire presidential election winds up being in Pennsylvania's hands...

Pennsylvania has one of the strictest voter ID laws recently enacted. The problem in Pennsylvania, is that MANY of the recently disenfranchised voters don't know it. They'll show up at the polls on election day, only to be turned away. They're MOSTLY black.. There'll be LOTS of cameras...

Let's say Romney wins Pennsylvania by 1,000 votes... What do you think will happen?

excon

I expect you have some sort of court of disputed returns where a class action might be brought, but highly unlikely to change the result since it is only supposition as to how the voters might have voted perhaps we could expect rioting in the streets and organised protests but then maybe not

perhaps we could expect rioting in the streets Hello again, clete:

I believe, that if the African American population watched the election being stolen from them right under their noses, they'll do more than take to the streets...

excon

FACTS

The attorney for the state arguing in court in support of the ID laws in PA. just submitted in a court submitted stipulation that they have NEVER investigated, prosecuted or know of any cases in the state of voter fraud. It should be noted that the GOVENOR, who was a former state prosecuter, never brought any voter fraud charges in his term as top attorney.

Pennsylvania Voter ID Law Trial Set To Begin As State Concedes It Has No Proof Of In-Person Voter Fraud (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/24/pennsylvania-voter-id-trial_n_1697980.html?utm_hp_ref=politics)


Pennsylvania officials released a study finding that more than 758,000 registered voters in the state -- many of them in its urban center of Philadelphia -- lacked driver's licenses. While the law allows for a variety of other forms of identification to be used at polling places, the figure suggested that a large number of Pennsylvanians still didn't meet the criteria needed to cast ballots in the fall.

We await the courts decision.

Looks like right wing BS to me!! Wonder what the rush is all about.

It is obviously a difficult case to prove in court. There is an active investigation in Philly about districts that voted over 100% of registered voters . Of course that investigation is being conducted by the Phily Democrat machine ;so you know where that's going .

Hello again, clete:

I believe, that if the African American population watched the election being stolen from them right under their noses, they'll do more than take to the streets...

excon

That is a falorn hope, it took them a centiury to get off their butts and take what was theirs so another century later. I don't see any big deal on civil rights, and what does more than riots in the streets man, revolution, in your dreams! They can't do anything for themselves now. When you are down you are down, what part of that don't you understand?

in your dreams! they can't do anything for themselves now. When you are down you are down, what part of that don't you understand?Hello again, clete:

Couple things..

I'm not HOPING for this event. I'm ANTICIPATING it.

So, even though they're down, you don't think they know how to light a match?? Dude!

excon

Get your riot shields out...


Pennsylvania Judge Upholds Voter ID Law (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/pennsylvania-judge-upholds-voter-id-law/?partner=rss&emc=rss)
By TIMOTHY WILLIAMS

A Pennsylvania judge on Wednesday refused to grant an injunction on a new voter identification law that Democrats say could harm President Obama’s re-election chances by unfairly targeting minorities, college students and others in a key swing state.

The decision by Robert Simpson, a commonwealth court judge, clears the way for Pennsylvania to require voters in the Nov. 6 general election to produce photo identification before they are allowed to cast ballots.

Opponents, who had challenged the law’s constitutionality, had asked Judge Simpson to delay the law’s imposition until after the election. Supporters say the law, variations of which have been passed in other states in recent years, is necessary to prevent voting fraud.

The Pennsylvania law was approved earlier this year by the State Legislature along party lines and signed into law in March by Gov. Tom Corbett, a Republican.

The American Civil Liberties Union is expected to appeal the decision to the State Supreme Court, which is split evenly between Democrats and Republicans. A tie would affirm the law.

Courts just keep upholding these common sense voter ID laws. I guess the New Black Panthers will have to station more club-wielding intimidators at the polls this time around.

Maybe instead of doing the court thingy they should instead concentrate their efforts on getting everyone properly registered and id'ed

Courts just keep upholding these common sense voter ID laws. Hello again, Steve:

I wouldn't be gloating just yet... There are higher courts than this one.

excon

Maybe instead of doing the court thingy they should instead concentrate their efforts on getting everyone properly registered and id'ed

But that would make sense and take away an avenue for expressing outrage. Libs can't cope without being outraged.

Hello again, Steve:

I wouldn't be gloating just yet... There are higher courts than this one.

excon

Yeah I know, maybe we'll hear from them in say, December.

Yeah I know, maybe we'll hear from them in say, December.Hello again, Steve:

You really don't know how that works, do you? There will be a decision LONG before the election. As a matter of fact, if the state supreme court upholds the decision, then it goes to a federal appeals court, and if it fails there, it'll go to the Supreme Court..

Yes, that'll ALL happen before the election... In fact, the Supreme Court can decide to hear the case anytime it wants to, WITHOUT having to go through the appeals process.. Why would you think it wouldn't happen? Where the hell do you think we live?

excon

SCOTUS is out of session until October. That is the earliest they could hear the case. SCOTUS is on record upholding voter ID laws so I doubt they would hear the case unless it got over-turned in Fed Court. The most recent decision was 6-3 with Stevens writing the majority opinion in the Indiana case 2008. The Pa. law if anything is less imposing than other laws already upheld.

Hello again, Steve:

You really don't know how that works, do you? There will be a decision LONG before the election.

And then again, maybe not.

I just did a quick read of Stevens' opinion.

[E]ven rational restrictions on the right to vote are invidious if they are unrelated to voter qualifications... [H]owever, we [have] confirmed the general rule that "evenhanded restrictions that protect the integrity and reliability of the electoral process itself" are not invidious... Rather than applying any "litmus test" that would neatly separate valid from invalid restrictions,. a court must identify and evaluate the interests put forward by the State as justifications for the burden imposed by its rule, and then make the "hard judgment" that our adversary system demands.


While petitioners argue that the statute was actually motivated by partisan concerns and dispute both the significance of the State's interests and the magnitude of any real threat to those interests, they do not question the legitimacy of the interests the State has identified.



The first is the interest in deterring and detecting voter fraud. The State has a valid interest in participating in a nationwide effort to improve and modernize election procedures that have been criticized as antiquated and inefficient. [See National Commission on Federal Election Reform, To Assure Pride and Confidence in the Electoral Process 18 (2002) (with Honorary Co-chairs former Presidents Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter).]

It remains true, however, that flagrant examples of such fraud in other parts of the country have been documented throughout this Nation's history by respected historians and journalists, that occasional examples have surfaced in recent years, and that Indiana's own experience with fraudulent voting in the 2003 Democratic primary for East Chicago Mayor - though perpetrated using absentee ballots and not in-person fraud - demonstrate that not only is the risk of voter fraud real but that it could affect the outcome of a close election.

There is no question about the legitimacy or importance of the State's interest in counting only the votes of eligible voters. Moreover, the interest in orderly administration and accurate recordkeeping provides a sufficient justification for carefully identifying all voters participating in the election process. While the most effective method of preventing election fraud may well be debatable, the propriety of doing so is perfectly clear.
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/07-21.pdf

My only objection to voter IDS is how it was rolled out to the public. I doubt if DEMS will depend mostly on the courts in this matter. And the process is not over, not even here in Texas.

My only objection to voter IDS is how it was rolled out to the public...

And how was that?

Hello again,

Enough spin... The legal issue ISN'T voter ID's. As you guys noted, SCOTUS already gave it their OK... The issue is the PROCESS in which the law is being implemented... For example, even though an ID is required, if the PROCESS of obtaining one impinges on the rights of the voter, the law can be struck down. As we've discussed here, ad infinitum, the judges might find that the PROCESS equals voter suppression, OR they could think, like you, that it's just hunky dorey...

We'll see.

excon

PS> 2 outs in the 9th. Felix is pitching a PERFECT game... I'm very excited.

Ex I don't understand this preoccupation with making people pay for things, where I come from when you register or change your registration you are sent a card verifying your registration, used in conjunction with another form of photo id your identify can be verified should this be necessary, as I understand this there is a very small incidence of voter fraud after all very few dogs and cats actually vote and even fewer run for office
http://www.news.com.au/world/hank-the-cat-runs-for-us-senate/story-fndir2ev-1226451392013
I wonder if anyone asked for his birth certificate or photo id?

Ex I don't understand this preoccupation with making people pay for things, where I come from when you register or change your registration you are sent a card verifying your registration,Hello clete:

I have NO problem with the ID's. The problem is the requirement the state dumps on the VOTERS to obtain them... I agree that the state has an interest in the integrity of the elections.. But, it CAN'T stop there... It ALSO has an interest in seeing that ALL eligible voters cast their votes..

If the state wants everybody to HAVE an ID, it's incumbent on the state to make SURE that everybody has an ID, even if it has to HAND DELIVER every one.

But, as long as the state puts even ONE obstacle in front of ONE voter, it's voter suppression.. It's not the governments JOB to put up obstacles.

excon

Hello clete:

I have NO problem with the ID's. The problem is the requirement the state dumps on the VOTERS to obtain them... I agree that the state has an interest in the integrity of the elections.. But, it CAN'T stop there... It ALSO has an interest in seeing that ALL eligible voters cast their votes..

If the state wants everybody to HAVE an ID, it's incumbent on the state to make SURE that everybody has an ID, even if it has to HAND DELIVER each and every one.

But, as long as the state puts even ONE obstacle in front of ONE voter, it's voter suppression.. It's not the governments JOB to put up obstacles.

excon

Ex I can only agree with you however

... It ALSO has an interest in seeing that ALL eligible voters cast their votes..

This objective would seem at odds with allowing voters the choice of whether they vote or not

Yeah ;maybe the government should round up the voters and frog march them to the polling place
I already documented on this thred the very reasonable options that the voters of PA have to obtain a voter id.

yeah ;maybe the government should round up the voters and frog march them to the polling place
I already documented on this thred the very reasonable options that the voters of PA have to obtain a voter id.

Don't be ridiculous Tom, you simply make it mandatory and give them a small fine for non compliance, they very quickly get the idea, after all contrary to popular opinion they are not stupid, just lazy

I have NO problem with the ID's. The problem is the requirement the state dumps on the VOTERS to obtain them...

But, as long as the state puts even ONE obstacle in front of ONE voter, it's voter suppression.. It's not the governments JOB to put up obstacles.

excon

And I have a problem with the left thinking Americans are a bunch of helpless imbeciles, while whining about the decline of American exceptionalism they created.

Everyone has an 'obstacle' to vote, be it filling out the registration, getting to the polling place, mailing in your ballot, pushing the buttons on the screen, pulling the lever or whatever... it takes some effort on your part. Your protests are LAME. There are requirements to vote, this one is no more a burden than any other.

So spend the money and make the ID's free like you said, open up more places that aren't 20/30 miles away and no bus service. That's what the did in Indiana, closed the urban DMV's, and moved them to rural areas, with NO bus service.

How does the great granny 93 years old, get a birth certificate in time to vote? Oh she will with a lot of help to overcome the obstacles you guys throw in front of her. Compassion dictates you deliver one, but that's not in the republican make up is it?

Voter fraud is an excuse to shave votes. At least the way you guys do it. Good ideas but lousy execution,as usual.

And I have a problem with the left thinking Americans are a bunch of helpless imbeciles, while whining about the decline of American exceptionalism they created.

How does the great granny 93 years old, get a birth certificate in time to vote? Hello again, tal:

All she needs to do is get on the bus, stop whining, and BE exceptional. Piece of cake, no?

excon

You guys have never heard of mail? And seriously, how does a 93 year old get by for 93 years with no ID? She never left the house?

Many have no need for a state ID. Of course you can't see that, but fact is its true. Maybe you just don't care about other people grannies. Shame you haven't a shred of empathy, or understanding, or the WILLINGNESS to try.


Hello again, tal:

All she needs to do is get on the bus, stop whining, and BE exceptional. Piece of cake, no?

excon

Easier for some than others, but don't tell a winger that. All they see are the benefits they get from it. Shaving Obama votes. Won't work like they think it will. But it was easy for them, and cheap!

In Pa. case provisions were made as I documented earlier . There are NO reasons an eligible voter cannot easily obtain an id.

Define easily.

Many have no need for a state ID. Of course you can't see that, but fact is its true. Maybe you just don't care about other people grannies. Shame you haven't a shred of empathy, or understanding, or the WILLINGNESS to try.

Cry me a freakin' river. You're still going to tell me that those who you see as most likely to be disenfranchised get by without an ID... even though that demographic probably gets government benefits of some sort and had to prove who they were and why they were eligible to get them?


Easier for some than others, but don't tell a winger that. All they see are the benefits they get from it. Shaving Obama votes. Won't work like they think it will. But it was easy for them, and cheap!

As if both sides don't have to furnish ID to vote. You guys are unbelievable.

There are NO reasons why an eligible voter cannot easily obtain an id.
Let me introduce you to all the fixed-income homebound and bedbound people I took library books to since 1993.

No crying on my part, I fully understand your desperation to get a right wing puppet in the Oval office. I leave the crying, and hollering to you guys, and go help granny vote, like she has for YEARS.

Let me introduce you to all the fixed-income homebound and bedbound people I took library books to since 1993.

That have no ID?

Let me introduce you to all the fixed-income homebound and bedbound people I took library books to since 1993.

I refer you to comments # 12,17 and especially 18 .

Edit :
UOCAVA voters and voters affected by the Voting Accessibility for Elderly and Handicapped Act are exempt.

That have no ID?
Usually no state ID or driver's license. No valid picture ID. They had library cards, though :D (often because we went to their homes and their bedsides and had them fill out the correct paperwork to get a card).

UOCAVA voters and voters affected by the Voting Accessibility for Elderly and Handicapped Act are exempt.
And these people will know this how?

Well if the Dems are smart ,and they think these people are their constuency ,then they will make sure they are informed . I've worked the elections on and off for years now. Both parties are very active in get out the vote activities.

In Texas you have to have a valid ID, or a bill with the correct address on it to get a library card. Costs a dollar.

well if the Dems are smart ,and they think these people are their constuency ,then they will make sure they are informed . I've worked the elections on and off for years now. Both parties are very active in get out the vote activites.
But this is above and beyond the pale. Making sure a voter has valid ID according to new rules is not "getting out the vote."

It's like asking men who log onto this site to have to use six different passwords, and women need only one. How many men will join this site then?

In Texas you have to have a valid ID, or a bill with the correct address on it to get a library card. Costs a dollar.
In Illinois, a library card is free. Book delivery people verified that the homebound/bedbound person lived at that address by examining two pieces of mail (a utility bill or some other official mail) with the person's name on it. A bedbound person kind of was a given for living there.

It's like asking men who log onto this site to have to use six different passwords, and women need only one. How many men will join this site then?Hello Carol,

Exceptional non whining men will...

Bwa, ha ha ha.

excon

Voter ID laws strengthen enfranchisement of registered voters and ensure the integrity of elections .

Voter ID laws strengthen enfranchisement of registered voters and ensure the integrity of elections .
And we have had so much trouble with voter fraud over the years.

Voter ID laws strengthen enfranchisement of registered voters and ensure the integrity of elections .Hello again, tom:

While that's true, if you put roadblocks up between the voter and the ID, that's voter suppression.

I KNOW you don't want to talk about the PROCESS, because it's the PROCESS that suppresses the vote...

excon

I've documented that there is no suppression in the PA law.

I've documented that there is no suppression in the PA law.
The very fact that it was made is suppression. Obligations were added to prove one can vote.

But this is above and beyond the pale. Making sure a voter has valid ID according to new rules is not "getting out the vote."

It's like asking men who log onto this site to have to use six different passwords, and women need only one. How many men will join this site then?

Proving you're eligible to vote in a United States election is "above and beyond the pale?" You can't be serious. Voter fraud disenfranchises those who played by the rules, period.

It's not that difficult to understand. Obligation A, you must be eligible to vote. To have that obligation without verifying eligibility renders obligation A meaningless.

Proving you're eligible to vote in a United States election is "above and beyond the pale?" You can't be serious. Voter fraud disenfranchises those who played by the rules, period.
There IS no voter fraud.

It's not that difficult to understand. Obligation A, you must be eligible to vote. To have that obligation without verifying eligibility renders obligation A meaningless.
Why would I again have to prove I am eligible? How many times does it have to be proven? My name is on the voter rolls. I get a voter card in the mail before an election. I'm over 21 and a registered voter. Isn't that enough?

Proving you're eligible to vote in a United States election is "above and beyond the pale?" .Hello again, Steve:

You guys keep MISSING the point.. I wonder if that's on purpose... Anyway, it's good thing I'm here to keep us ON track..

Again, PROVING you're eligible to vote, ISN'T what's beyond the pale... It's hurdling the obstacles between the voter and his ID that is beyond the pale...

Can we going to DISCUSS the REAL issue here, or are you guys going to keep reciting talking points?

excon

It's hurdling the obstacles between the voter and his ID that is beyond the pale...

Can we gonna DISCUSS the REAL issue here, or are you guys gonna keep reciting talking points??

excon

That point was demolished thoroughly by tom weeks ago, and the only "talking points" I'm reciting are my own arguments.

I repeat, you must be eligible to vote and if you don't verify that then eligibility requirements are meaningless.

There IS no voter fraud.

Now THAT'S a talking point. That argument has been thoroughly refuted here as well.

Now THAT'S a talking point. That argument has been thoroughly refuted here as well.
So why have a voter ID law?

The Pew Center published a study in February that found that 24 million voter registrations in the United States are either invalid or contain significant errors. Almost 2 million dead people are still on the rolls, and nearly 3 million people are registered in two or more states. An organization known as True the Vote recently reported there are 160 counties where more people are registered to vote than there are eligible voters.

The Pew Center published a study in Febuary that found that 24 million voter registrations in the United States are either invalid or contain significant errors. Almost 2 million dead people are still on the rolls, and nearly 3 million people are registered in two or more states. An organization known as True the Vote recently reported there are 160 counties where more people are registered to vote than there are eligible voters.
What are the Republicans doing about this?

So why have a voter ID law?

Because elections aren't meaningless. Shall we start this silly circle all over again or are y'all going to find something relevant to argue?

Because elections aren't meaningless.
Ah, there you go! One candidate might get more votes than the other?

Ah, there ya go! One candidate might get more votes than the other?

I think someone getting more valid votes than the other is the general idea of an election.

I think someone getting more valid votes than the other is the general idea of an election.
Ah, yes, more valid because of ?

I knew you'd just start this silly circle all over again. You can follow it around again on your own starting here (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/voter-id-suppression-678733-22.html#post3238404). And before your next question, if maintaining the integrity of the vote means my guy loses it means my guy loses. I played by the rules, it's not fair for my vote to be canceled out by fraud.

I knew you'd just start this silly circle all over again. You can follow it around again on your own starting here (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/voter-id-suppression-678733-22.html#post3238404). And before your next question, if maintaining the integrity of the vote means my guy loses it means my guy loses. I played by the rules, it's not fair for my vote to be canceled out by fraud.
There isn't any record of fraud as being a problem.

There isn't any record of fraud as being a problem.

Again, around and around we go. That talking point has already been shown here to be without merit.

Again, around and around we go. That talking point has already been shown here to be without merit.
So you agree there is no need for voter ID laws.

So you agree there is no need for voter ID laws.

In light of what I've said that response makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

In light of what I've said that response makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
It was sarcasm.

No, it was provocation.

No, it was provocation.
Nope. I don't do provocation.

So you agree there is no need for voter ID laws.

You are right you know, its just a ploy to deny people the right to vote

you are right you know, its just a ploy to deny people the right to vote
I know. :D

Maybe we need a law that Republicans have to wear a purple and white striped pullover shirt in order to vote on Election Day. (The stripes can be either vertical or horizontal--we'll make it easy that way, but polo, not t-shirt.)

If you are worried about electoral fraud all you do is do what they do in the third world, dip a finger in indelliable ink surely we are smart enough now to give a voter a card with a bar code on it and you can immediately check their bonafides and make sure they don't vote twice. For the people who automated the count you are sure slow on the uptake

This wouldn't be as big an issue except for the partisan part of it, especially with the crap in Ohio, or the early voter restrictions that made for some awful long lines (HOURS TO VOTE?) in the past.

Now if they were serious about a legit election, they would have thought of a simpler solution than make obstacles.

Here's how to stop voter suppression - Tampa Bay Times (http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/article1240924.ece)

Talk about the intent of the founders, maybe we question the intent of our leaders.

You could ensure a federal jurisdiction, where the same rules are applied to all, makes sense you know, just as it took federal law to make civil rights work

I know. :D

Maybe we need a law that Republicans have to wear a purple and white striped pullover shirt in order to vote on Election Day. (The stripes can be either vertical or horizontal--we'll make it easy that way, but polo, not t-shirt.)

You want special rules for Republicans, I just want the same rules for everyone.

Yeah you have your ID (papers please), YOU needed one. So everyone should need one too. RIGHT NOW!

Austin news, sports, weather, Longhorns, business | Statesman.com (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2012/08/14/judge_denies_states_stay_in_vo.html?cxntfid=blogs_ postcards)

Yeah you have your ID (papers please), YOU needed one. So everyone should need one too. RIGHT NOW!

Austin news, sports, weather, Longhorns, business | Statesman.com (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2012/08/14/judge_denies_states_stay_in_vo.html?cxntfid=blogs_ postcards)

Damn right, only eligible voters should get to vote.

Damn right, only eligible voters should get to vote.Hello again, Steve:

Fortunately, a federal court AGREES (http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2012/08/17/158982853/federal-court-reinstates-early-voting-days-in-parts-of-florida)with you. Last night it REJECTED part of Florida's new election law that would have restricted the number of early voting days across the state. The court said the new law cannot take effect in five counties where the African-American vote could be key in November.

So, when the FEDS get involved, SANITY returns... That's what I THOUGHT would happen..

excon

So you believe sanity is blocking a state law in only five counties because of race?

Dude, that's not sanity. Sanity is equality, not giving preferential treatment to one race.

So you believe sanity is blocking a state law in only five counties because of race?

Dude, that's not sanity. Sanity is equality, not giving preferential treatment to one race.Hello again, Steve:

I didn't think keeping the polls open for EVERYBODY would give preferential treatment to one race...

It IS telling that you do..

excon

Hello again, Steve:

I didn't think keeping the polls open for EVERYBODY would give preferential treatment to one race...

It IS telling that you do..

It was your article that said it, not me.


A federal court has rejected part of Florida's new election law that would have restricted the number of early voting days across the state. The court said the new law cannot take effect in five counties where the African-American vote could be key in November.

You stand corrected.

Dude, that's not sanity. Sanity is equality, not giving preferential treatment to one race.

You stand corrected.Hello again, Steve:

Nahhhh... But, we're getting CLOSE to the heart of the argument... Pursuant to the court, the new law cannot take effect in five counties where the African-American vote could be key in November.

So, when the playing field is LEVELED, YOU believe it gives black people a PREFERENCE... That's interesting... It follows, of course, that to make it equal for YOU, the black vote would have to be suppressed...

excon

So, when the playing field is LEVELED, YOU believe it gives black people a PREFERENCE... That's interesting.... It follows, of course, that to make it equal for YOU, the black vote would have to be suppressed...

You see I find that to be very confusing 'logic,' that giving 5 counties with a key black population 4 more early voting days than everyone else is "leveling the playing field" while requiring everyone to play by the same rules is "suppression."

Do you guys even read what you write?

You see I find that to be very confusing 'logic,' that giving 5 counties with a key black population 4 more early voting days than everyone else is "leveling the playing field"
Hello again, Steve:

It's only confusing if you're UNAWARE of the HISTORY of those counties. Here's what the law says:
... [the counties] must demonstrate that a proposed voting change does not have the purpose and will not have the effect of discriminating based on race or color. In some cases, they must also show that the proposed change does not have the purpose or effect of discriminating against a "language minority group."

Now, if these counties had NEVER had a history of voter suppression, your argument MIGHT have some weight... But, in the light of HISTORY, it's CLEAR what those counties are doing... It's a matter of CONTEXT. Since you don't DO context, I suspect you'll disagree with me again.

Excon