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A little vague, would you care to elaborate a bit?
Find out where the lack of intimacy derives and we will be better equipped to help you. Please give us more details so that we can assist.
Sorry my original post was a bit long and I was trying to condense it but the editor got turned off. Anyway, here goes:
I'm 42 and my husband's 43. We've been married for 8 years, and don't have any children. He's a great guy in every way except our private life. For several years he's had diabetes and started having ED soon after we were married - but I think he already had it in a small measure even before we met. My sex drive is pretty high but he has no interest or desire at all and it's been more than 4 years since we've had any kind of sex. I would be happy if we had some sort of intimacy at least once a week, or at least a few times a month..... actually I'd be happy if we had Something, Anything! Even just holding and cuddling would be great, but he doesn't like any of that. I really miss the physical affection - like hugs, touching each other, kissing (I haven't had a real kiss for years....), and the whole experience and sensation of being close to a person you're in love with.
Looking at us, no one suspects that we have any problems. I have girlfriends but I find it hard to confide about this to them. In many ways my husband and I have a good relationship - we like each other a lot, share interests and do things together. There are so many things that I love about our life but sex is a big part of married life, and it is a big deal for me. I understand that its hard for him to function, what with the diabetes and the meds. And it cannot possibly be cured so its not going to go away. But I also think that there are options and that its very unfair on his part to ignore me and not do anything. Sometimes I think that I'm being selfish in having so much and still wanting this one thing he can't give me, but I'm really desperate.
There are a lot of responses here and on some other sites for problems like this but I don't know if any of it will really make a difference. I'm quite certain that my husband won't change. I used to try to talk to him till a few years back but he just avoided the whole issue altogether and wanted both of us to go on as if there's nothing wrong - which is what I've been doing till now. But not having any sex is now bothering me to such an extent that I think of it all the time; almost to the point of being obsessed with it. Divorce or an affair are not options; but I don't know what to do anymore.
This is very serious. I understand that his sex drive is off but what about the other types of intimacy? Now you indicated that he isn't into that kind of stuff in that area and it seems to me that you have given up trying to cuddle during the movies or getting a kiss good by for work. I can see his health issues are a major factor here but that shouldn't stop him from still expressing he loves you in other ways. This is concerning, he is not getting the message because maybe there are just too many emotions that get involved from you and from him so he pretends like nothing is wrong and then when you bring it up he hides under the rugs! There is a major lack of communication here. You said that he is good in every other way and that you both share the same interests and spent a lot of time together going out and doing as you wish. Time alone or time out is not the factor. Aside from his health problems, have you guys planned a nice trip to a hot country and maybe trying to get away from it all for a couple of weeks? It sounds like you guys have a lot of stress and strain in your marriage that is only being neglected and not dealt with. One day you are going to explode! I am suggesting that a marriage counselor would be a good one for your situation. Explain to him that a lot of people go, but the way you describe it is he is hard headed... getting him to agree to this would be a task in itself. Please confirm if that is a possibility. I think you may have to alleviate the pressure of sex from him and maybe start with the small things... like cuddling, hugging, kissing, tickling and all that nice stuff. He won't be able to jump into sex right away if he is taking all those meds, be patient and try to focus on the small things. You can still give him examples by giving him these notions and maybe (when the ball is in his court) he will come around and give you the same back. The goal is to get him to open up and start showing some affection and do that for some time. I am sure that he wants nothing more then to be with you, but the stress, health and meds are not permitting him to do so at this time. He more then likely feels really bad about his situation and that is exactly why he ignores or hides from the situation. Start with the small things, in the mean time like I said a consoler for you and for him and for your marriage may be something you may want to look into.
Girl, you state you have a problem that you think about all the time, and then, say what will solve your problem is not an option.
What am I supposed to think of this? :)
Your options are as follows:
1. Accept things as they are, and stop crying about it.
2. Leave.
3. Let him know that you are NOT going to accept things as they are, and he either fixes it or you leave.
4. Have an affair where you can get affection from someone, since your husband refuses to give it to you.
5. Let him know that you'd even CONSIDER it, because he's turned completely away from you.
6. Get him to a marriage counselor before you hate him as much as you used to love him.
@ xoxapril & Synnen: Lots of good advice, and you're both right about several things. Actually, we do travel a lot. Our jobs are very flexible, so we do get opportunities to get away often. But even if we have a good time, its like being with a buddy - not with a husband! On the surface, we have a nice marriage. But underneath all the ordinary stuff, I feel upset about our lack of intimacy and when it really bugs me I find that I try to pick a fight with him; but mostly I just go on as if everything was OK. I agree about the marriage counselor but like you said, he's very hard headed! I do have to figure out a way to go together or alone...
@ Choux: LOL at your comment! :) Well, I don't want to divorce him, love him too much for that. As for having a affair, I did try... I confided in an old friend who used to have a crush on me, and he was all for going ahead with a relationship (sneak out and have sex, basically... ) but when he tried to kiss me, I couldn't kiss him back. It just felt awful and I couldn't do it! Maybe I just need some time, maybe I'm not attracted to him enough, I don't know. He's very affectionate and charming and sweet, but I really want MY guy, you know? Isn't that stupid!?
@ xoxapril: You said:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine
Just to clarify, I haven't put any pressure on him for sex. I've tried to be as understanding as I can, and its been... oh about 3 years since I've even mentioned it! I'm naturally very affectionate but he's not very physically expressive, and whenever I try to kiss or hug him, he puts on this long suffering face (like a joke) and lets me do it but he's never interested in doing any of that back at me!
Having said that, I do think your advice is excellent... and also your point about why he ignores the whole situation. I used to think that by me keeping quiet about all of this, he would come around himself and at least make an attempt to do something - even if there was no actual intercourse, something to just have fun... but now I realize its not going to happen, unless I do something. I hate taking the initiative though, its just not in my nature, but I know I can't expect him to so it'll have to be me.
If he will not go to a counselor with you then you should go with his full knowledge to get guidance yourself. It would help educate you and lead you to the coping skills necessary to get through this difficult time.
The goal is to get him to love himself enough, to take a lot better care of himself, so you can get the benefit of his being healthy and happy.
This is a long term problem so the solution will not happen overnight, so my best advice is for you to work on making yourself happy in other areas of your life, and lead by example, what loving yourself can do for your attitude, and outlook.
I think all couples as they get time in together, must make adjustments to improve on the communications level, and even have to work harder to keep up with the changes, life throws at us.
I think a counselor can really help you with strategies of communications, at this point.
You may not be able to control him, or his actions, but you can control your own. Sometimes all we can do is deal with ourselves, and our attitudes. Just be honest with yourself, and especially with him, as I think you have let this buildup far to long, without being proactive for yourself, and him.
Picking a fight, sets up resemtments for you both! Ignoring the problem will never bring a solution.Quote:
I feel upset about our lack of intimacy and when it really bugs me I find that I try to pick a fight with him; but mostly I just go on as if everything was OK.
That is an adjustment to be considered. So glad cheating is not your thing as, why bring even more complications, and problems into your already frustrating situation, and I hope if it ever got to that point, have the decency to leave first.Quote:
I hate taking the initiative though, its just not in my nature, but I know I can't expect him to so it'll have to be me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I agree.
I really can't even imagine leaving him, or being with someone else - he is an great guy except for this one thing. That having said, I do get tempted - I wish I could say its easy to resist but its so hard, especially when there are people who are very "available".
However, when I think of possible consequences - that's a big deterrent.
Actually I've been trying to find some courage and a good time to have a talk with him. Wondering if it would make any difference though.
Talk to him ; I know you've done it in the past, and you have to do it again.
You need to find out why he's doing this.
Decide you will not get angry, emotional, defensive, aggressive, or melodramatic in this conversation you will have. Any of those (and many more) emotions will sabotage your ability to get the information you need.
Given that this has been an issue in the past, and that you care about it so much, and that he knows all this, it will be hard to change the pattern. You probably ask and he probably detaches form the conversation, becomes defensive, and wants it to just be freaking over. Maybe he has a "god damned it why are you bringing up this stupid thing AGAIN" attitude. Don't get discouraged. Instead, watch carefully what his reaction is. If he gets angry, defensive etc, I think that's a clue to you.
Let's entertain some hypotheses:
1. he thinks sex is lame and doesn't understand why people bother; same with holding hands, hugging etc;
2. his libido is annoyingly decreased and he doesn't understand why. He wishes it weren't the case; but he just doesn't want to do it; ever;
3. he is angry at you/doesn't feel affection, love, emotion etc but you're too good to leave. So he just doesn't want to touch you at all;
4. he loves you, but he doesn't find you physically attractive (this is what happens to me) and he wishes you would shave/wash/lose weight/dress better/act sexy/change it up/initiate stuff/act confident etc.
Come up with more hypotheses here;
If 1 were true then when you ask him why, he would just tell you. If he thought sex were lame and stupid, he would say that, the same way you'd say it if you just didn't feel like eating maggots; you would feel entitled not to eat maggots, because that would be lame and stupid etc; so, in your talk, it should be fairly easy to tell if you're dealing with an asexual person.
If 2, he should be upset by this; he may not want to be reminded; if he wants to want sex, but his diabetes gets in the way (reminded of a YouTube journal from a MS patient who was annoyed at her decreased libido; she couldn't' feel her body most of the time, so sex just didn't feel good). In this case he should be interested in medical/psychological treatment; but he should be defensive or stonewalling; maybe his masculinity is threatened; maybe he's lying to himself and doesn't want to admit he has this problem, and you bringing it up just hurts him; if you ask kindly, and convince him that you will accept the truth, he should barf it up if this is why;
If 3 there should be other rocky aspects of your relationship; maybe his tone of voice; his level of interest; how much time he accords you; what he sais to you; are you the coolest person ever? Does he give you the, oh my god you're so amazing look? Is he loving? Etc;
If your relationship is on the rocks, no sex may be a subconscious punishment. Then you'd have other things to work on. You should know already if this is true, but maybe not; maybe there are things you do that piss him off and he just doesn't complain, but instead covertly crossed you from his hot lover list and turned you into roommate;
If 4, the rest of your relationship should feel great; no man will feel comfortable telling his wife she's unattractive. That's like a big NO NO for men. They know they'll hurt our feelings and they might think we know already (this happened to me) what we should do to restore the attraction. Let's say you've stopped shaving your legs and he thinks this is the grossest thing ever, but that it's so obvious that clearly you're doing it on purpose because you don't care to have sex with him so why bother bringing it up; he doesn't want to sound too shallow? I don't know. In this case, your problem could be solved (by some effort that perhaps you'd wish were unnecessary)
I am sure there are many other explanations; try to find out WHY; if you don't know why, it will be twice as bewildering; it may be hard to ask, but just do it;
Preempt his concerns; for example, if you think he may find you fat, ask him: "is it because i'm fat?" and before that let him know that it's OK for him to tell you (you have to mean this; don't go looking for answers if you don't want to know them. I mean, don't find out then blow up about it. You have to be prepared for the truth). You've got to be really persistent addressing his concerns here. He may be afraid that if he tells you you will be hurt; you HAVE to reassure him that you can deal;
Ask him how come he is not preoccupied by this. Tell him it's abnormal, just to let him know; if he gets defensive, point it out; as him how come it bothers him to much; and at all points, DO NOT get annoyed/angry/defensive/etc. what you're trying to do here is create camaraderie; you both have a problem. Why are you the only one trying to solve it? Ask him that, not as an accusation, but like, by the way, how come I'm the only person concerned about this? Have you given up sex forever? Do you find it unimportant? Do you want to have sex with other people? Would you mind if I did? Do you ever think about this? Do you ever notice we don't have sex? (btw, getting him to admit that this is happening was so relieving for me. I stopped being alone at that point).
Ask him if it's you or if it's him;
Tell him how much this worries you. Tell him how it feels (probably, you feel rejected, hurt, self conscious, unloved; maybe you feel like you're begging and it's degrading. Maybe you feel like he is not really your lover) if he says he doesn't know, or wants to run away from the conversation, tell him to try really hard to think of the reason because it's very important to you and it emotionally affects you. If you need to, tell him you looked online. (don't whine) but let him know. That may help him overcome his inhibitions about searching for the reason or it might help him admit it to you or to himself;
Sorry for the long rant :p
@ metamorph: Great detailed post, I really appreciate it! (and no way, its not a rant at all! :) )
You made some amazing points... and I started thinking and sort of worrying about some of the possible answers for the questions you posted. I think I already have some of those answers -- like I'm pretty sure that I'm no hot lover anymore and definitely just a roommate... but how do I solve this??
Well I'll talk to him. Don't know when but I'll post once I do.
After reading your post, I went back to check other posts by you and was sorry to know about how things are with you and your partner. Did you talk to him? If you did, how did things work out?? Things any better for both of you?
It is so hard if not impossible to change someone, or even persuade them they should change. You can however change yourself. You can rebuild your entire life around yourself, and love yourself enough to not want to engage in useless arguing, and wondering why he pays you no attention. Embrace things that you enjoy, and do the things that you have wanted to do. The idea is to be responsible for your own happiness, and take control of your life in a way that satisfies you.
Then you won't be dependent on him for your own well being.
He should also get checked out by a doctor. His hormones could be way off. Mine were for a period in my marriage and there is nothing worse than trying to work up the interest to be intimate with someone when you just don't want too. My hormones are fixed and now my husbands are way off. So he gets shots, wears patches, and takes the little blue pill. Not the best way to have this, but it is better than not.
I feel for you. But really, sounds like there needs to be a closer look at the medical conditions.
I'm not so sure that knowing why will change anything for the better. My wife of 22 years and I haven't had sex in over 4 years. I nearly made myself crazy (and I did make myself depressed) trying to figure out why, and I was able to come up with several plausible explanations-- some medical, some psychological, some spiritual. One or more of them may even be the "right" ones. But whatever the reason(s), the reality is that she doesn't want to have sex anymore, she isn't interested in trying to change that, and to be honest, after all this time, I'm not sure I would be able to respond even if she did.Quote:
Originally Posted by metamorph
Let's face it, sooner or later, most of us will have to give up sex, and quite likely intimacy as well, long enough before we die to be frustrated by the lack of it. Maybe this is tragic, or maybe not. On my good days I'm resigned. On others, I'm sad and disappointed.
I'm sorry not to have a solution to offer. All I can say is that I understand and sympathize.
@ ordinaryguy: I'm very sorry to hear about you and your wife. And yes, you're right, things are probably never going to change much for me either.
It's just that... its very hard to give up, you know.
Believe me, I do know. Every now and then, a sudden yearning for it comes unexpectedly and makes me shudder and catch my breath. Maybe I haven't truly given it up yet. It just seems less and less likely as time goes by.Quote:
Originally Posted by shykitte
It's bad enough missing the level of physical and emotional intimacy that my wife and I did have. But what's worse is missing a level of intimacy that we didn't have, not ever, not even in the best of our times.
I have known, briefly, in other relationships, a deeper level of mutual recognition and willing self-revelation, in conjunction with an unabashedly unbridled emotional and physical passion. It's that sense of deep mutual self-revelation that I really miss, and yearn for. It seems like the emotional and physical passion would be a lot easier to give up if these deeper needs were satisfied.
@ ordinaryguy: I didn't think guys like you existed... :smile:... other than in books and movies (mostly written by women~!). I totally agree with ChihuahauMomma with the *Wow*! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
Most guys I know are wary of facing depth of any sort in a relationship. My husband would rather that I understand him and just... not talk about it. He would never want anything even remotely close to self-revelation (forget willing!), and in his case it would have to be extracted through careful manipulation, and of course without letting him know that I'm doing it!! ::laughing::
I'm not complaining. I love him for what he is. We've settled into a comfortable and functional marriage that works for us really well in many ways. I don't expect an intense love from him... BUT... I would like to be candid and open about everything, including our intimacy issues. Even if we never have sex, I want us to be able to explore other options that we could enjoy instead. I want all the fun and frolic and uninhibited passion that is part of loving someone...
Unbridled is a great word... I love all the images that brings up. In fact, I can sit and think - for an hour ot two -- of several things that I would love to do that are unbridled. ::laughing again here::
Sigh.
Anyway...
I was curious, when you said that you've "known briefly - in other relationships..." - did you mean in other relationships you've had or other relationships you've observed?
um....maybe HE'S having the affair?? you mentioned not being intimate with him for 4 years, yet you've been married 9? If he didnt have an issue being intimate the 5 years you've been married, why cold feet all of a sudden? you need to find out if the reason he's not sexually available is because he's had a mistress for the 4 years. After all, you claim to love him and can't imagine leaving him, and yet YOU almost cheated on him (not all the way, but you allowed another man to kiss you although you didnt kiss back), so...let's not be naive enough to think he wouldnt do the same, or hasn't been doing the same....
While it may be true that more men than women are reluctant to reveal their inner selves, there are plenty of both sexes who either can't or won't do it without a lot of coaching and encouragement. Also, for many it seems like there's no particular correlation between that deeper level of mutual recognition and a satisfying emotional and sexual relationship. Some people don't seem to need or want it with their sexual partners, or even with anyone at all. I don't really know if that's true, it may just seem that way to me as an observer of other people's relationships.Quote:
Originally Posted by shykitte
What was his childhood like? In my wife's case, she had a hard one, with a lot of conflict and negativity in a large family. I sometimes wonder if it damaged something in her heart that has never recovered.Quote:
I'm not complaining. I love him for what he is. We've settled into a comfortable and functional marriage that works for us really well in many ways. I don't expect an intense love from him... BUT... I would like to be candid and open about everything, including our intimacy issues. Even if we never have sex, I want us to be able to explore other options that we could enjoy instead. I want all the fun and frolic and uninhibited passion that is part of loving someone...
Yeah, and so is "unabashed". Embarrassment, ambivalence, half-heartedness, hesitation, doubt, and uncertainty are all mortal enemies of emotional intimacy and great sex, in my experience.Quote:
Unbridled is a great word... I love all the images that brings up. In fact, I can sit and think - for an hour ot two -- of several things that I would love to do that are unbridled. ::laughing again here::
Other relationships I've had. After two failed marriages in my twenties, I spent a decade living alone and being a bachelor. During that time, I imposed only two conditions on my relationships with women: "I will not share a living space with you", and "I will not promise to be monogamous with you". A select few, maybe three or four, of the relationships that flowered under those conditions still stand out as the most honest and deeply satisfying ones of my life so far.Quote:
Sigh.
Anyway...
I was curious, when you said that you've "known briefly - in other relationships..." - did you mean in other relationships you've had or other relationships you've observed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by flickka
Hi flickka, we've been married 8 years. I've mentioned before that sex was never a priority for my husband. It was sporadic during the first four years - like maybe 4 or 5 times a year. But for the past 4 years, its deteriorated into nothing - absolutely no intimacy at all. So its not "cold feet all of a sudden". He has diabetes and takes meds which cause ED (erectile dysfunction)... which is the basic cause, not a mistress or other women. In fact, I wouldn't mind if he had interest in other women, I would rather that he showed SOME interest than nothing. At least I could be certain then that he was still a normal full-blooded guy... but nope, nothing there. I've asked him several times to get porn magazines or movies if those could get him turned on but he's just not interested.
As for me allowing another man to come close to kissing me, I'm only human, and have my moments of temptation... (For the record - though it doesn't matter - he did Not kiss me... ; he tried to but I turned my face and it was just a very awkward "contact" of cheeks... nothing more. :) ) I was not in love with him, just attracted a little bit... but I guess I need to be in love, or be very very impressed by someone to go to that level of being physical with them. The "lust" by itself was not enough.
I agree with you. A lot of people seem content with the mundane way things are and don't bother making any effort at making their relationships better.Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
That is probably very true. I don't know how you could help her. How does one deal with childhood-embedded trauma? Do you think some form of therapy could help?Quote:
What was his childhood like? In my wife's case, she had a hard one, with a lot of conflict and negativity in a large family. I sometimes wonder if it damaged something in her heart that has never recovered.
My husband's family is very loving and supportive but he was a Catholic boarding school product, sent away to school when he was 10. I think boarding school strengthened him as a person and made him very independent; but in a way too independent. Sometimes I feel that he doesn't need me as much as I need him.
I have to confess, there is quite a bit of doubt and uncertainty in my psyche now...Quote:
Yeah, and so is "unabashed". Embarrassment, ambivalence, half-heartedness, hesitation, doubt, and uncertainty are all mortal enemies of emotional intimacy and great sex, in my experience.
This is NOT self-pity but I do feel at times that I'm not very desirable anymore. ::*embarassed smile*:: Can't seem to get that feeling out even though I tell myself that it's not true.
And I also wonder if I really know how to enjoy good sex anymore; (besides wondering IF I'll ever enjoy sex ~ !) and if its just all in my mind now.
Quote:
Other relationships I've had. After two failed marriages in my twenties, I spent a decade living alone and being a bachelor. During that time, I imposed only two conditions on my relationships with women: "I will not share a living space with you", and "I will not promise to be monogamous with you". A select few, maybe three or four, of the relationships that flowered under those conditions still stand out as the most honest and deeply satisfying ones of my life so far.
In some relationships, I see one person being the nurturer and therefore the relationship "doctor" - being patient with his/her partner, fixing problems, and compensating for so much... Know what I mean? Is either person happy in such a relationship?
And then in some relationships I see people on the same wavelength, both being able to understand AND give what the other person needs... and being equally committed to making the other person happy. I LOVE those type of relationships. :)
I'm happy for you that you had the relationships you mentioned. If you could turn the clock back, would you pursue a long term relationship with any of those women?
Long-term couples who live together seem to "negotiate to a point of stability" (or is it stalemate?). After the sometimes-frenetic search for identity and love in our twenties and thirties, there is something attractive about not having to be growing and changing and becoming somebody new all the time. But all stability is temporary, and even then, it comes at a price.Quote:
Originally Posted by shykitte
These are some very deep and difficult questions, and in spite of all the blood, sweat and tears I've devoted to them, I still don't know the answers. I have encouraged, urged, even begged her to get counseling, either solo or together, but she has always remained steadfast in her insistence that she doesn't want to do it, so I've quit bringing it up.Quote:
That is probably very true. I don't know how you could help her. How does one deal with childhood-embedded trauma? Do you think some form of therapy could help?
My guess is that he needs you more, and you need him less, than either of you think right now.Quote:
My husband's family is very loving and supportive but he was a Catholic boarding school product, sent away to school when he was 10. I think boarding school strengthened him as a person and made him very independent; but in a way too independent. Sometimes I feel that he doesn't need me as much as I need him.
Well, the bare-naked truth is that you're NOT very desirable TO HIM. But since he seems to have no desire AT ALL, FOR ANYONE, you need not take it personally. Yeah, like that's easy, right?Quote:
I have to confess, there is quite a bit of doubt and uncertainty in my psyche now...
This is NOT self-pity but I do feel at times that I'm not very desirable anymore. :*embarassed smile*:: Can't seem to get that feeling out even though I tell myself that it's not true.
How good was it at its best? Based on this:Quote:
And I also wonder if I really know how to enjoy good sex anymore; (besides wondering IF I'll ever enjoy sex ~ !) and if its just all in my mind now.
I have to wonder.Quote:
sex was never a priority for my husband. It was sporadic during the first four years - like maybe 4 or 5 times a year.
What was your emotional/sexual relationship history before you married your husband?
Let's just say they both derive something useful from it. At least for a while.Quote:
In some relationships, I see one person being the nurturer and therefore the relationship "doctor" - being patient with his/her partner, fixing problems, and compensating for so much... Know what I mean? Is either person happy in such a relationship?
Was your relationship to your husband ever like this? Have you ever been a party to such a relationship with someone else?Quote:
And then in some relationships I see people on the same wavelength, both being able to understand AND give what the other person needs... and being equally committed to making the other person happy. I LOVE those type of relationships. :)
I had to think about this for awhile.Quote:
If you could turn the clock back, would you pursue a long term relationship with any of those women?
In one sense, I DO have a long-term relationship with them. A couple of them I keep in touch with, happen to run into them maybe once or twice a year and have a little catch-up conversation about their kids and their parents and their Significant Other, if they happen to have one at the time. I always come away from those encounters with a warm and pleasant afterglow.
On the other hand, I don't wish that I had married them and raised kids with them instead of my wife. I don't imagine that it would have been any easier or more satisfying with them. Part of what I like about them is that they're "difficult women"--intoxicating in small doses, but a steady diet would be likely to produce a hangover.
That really threw me; I never thought of our situation quite like that.Quote:
My guess is that he needs you more, and you need him less, than either of you think right now.
No, not easy at all -- and not easy to accept. So what now? I resign myself to... stalemate??Quote:
Well, the bare-naked truth is that you're NOT very desirable TO HIM. But since he seems to have no desire AT ALL, FOR ANYONE, you need not take it personally. Yeah, like that's easy, right?
("Stale"-"mate"?? Whoever invented that word probably had problems with their significant other, I bet... l:)l!)
It was very good. I loved it, loved everything we did together. He knew what excited me and I loved doing what excited him back. The only problem was that once in a while, the ED interfered and he would not be able to finish. It was a big process for him... something he had to put a lot of effort into, as well as being very tired afterward (more than is usual with regular guys), I also think he felt bad or maybe emasculated about the ED; so with all that, he avoided the whole "process" as much as possible.Quote:
How good was it at its best? Based on this:
I have to wonder.
I had a few boyfriends in high school, college; then was married to somebody who was totally wrong for me and I for him... and the marriage was over even before it had begun. I had a few casual relationships after my divorce, but no one that I really wanted to be with long term until I met my husband. There was a much older man for a year or so before I met my husband - he made me feel really secure and special and the sex was incredible; very spontaneous, he wasn't a prude at all and loved trying new things. However, we weren't in love.. so that was that, but it was a memorable experience.Quote:
What was your emotional/sexual relationship history before you married your husband?
There was a glimmer of something like this with my husband in the beginning. I think we have the potential to have a relationship like that, but we don't, for whatever reasons. I did share a relationship like this with someone I was involved with in college, but since then have only seen it in a few other couples, mostly much older.Quote:
Was your relationship to your husband ever like this? Have you ever been a party to such a relationship with someone else?
I understand... I really don't know what else to tell you. I hope someone here will be able to address your dilema and be of some help. Good luck!Quote:
Originally Posted by shykitte
It was just a guess. Is there any truth to it, do you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by shykitte
If you stay with him, you may have to learn to do without sex-as-intimacy. That doesn't mean that you have to be resigned to no sex at all. You may have seen my comment to batybird about this:Quote:
No, not easy at all -- and not easy to accept. So what now? I resign myself to... stalemate??
Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
I'm sure this must have been quite devastating for him, and understandably so. He has a physical disability that makes it difficult or impossible to have the kind of sex most of us think of as "normal". But it sounds like you would be quite willing to adapt, innovate, and be creative in coming up with other ways to show affection and be intimate, but he isn't willing to go that route and seems to have given up on all forms of intimacy whatsoever.Quote:
It was very good. I loved it, loved everything we did together. He knew what excited me and I loved doing what excited him back. The only problem was that once in a while, the ED interfered and he would not be able to finish. It was a big process for him... something he had to put a lot of effort into, as well as being very tired afterward (more than is usual with regular guys), I also think he felt bad or maybe emasculated about the ED; so with all that, he avoided the whole "process" as much as possible.
I guess you really need to decide whether this is a state you're willing to live in for the foreseeable future. Have you considered putting your feelings in writing for him? It would allow you to be careful and precise in saying what really matters to you, and to tell him just how important it is to you to have some form of physical and emotional intimacy, even if it isn't conventional intercourse. If you aren't willing to completely give up on intimacy and settle for a "buddy/roommate" kind of marriage, you can lay that out in clear terms, so that he can decide how to respond.
Of course, you can't be sure that if you leave him you will find a fulfilling relationship with somebody else. It could happen, but it might not, so if you'd rather have the kind of marriage you have now than to be alone, don't bluff about leaving. Personally, I would rather be lonely by myself than with somebody else around, but that's for you to decide. All I'm saying is be sure you're ready to follow through before you issue any ultimatums.
So from him you learned that good sex without love wasn't enough, and from your husband you're learning that platonic love without sex isn't satisfying either. What's next, do you suppose?Quote:
There was a much older man for a year or so before I met my husband - he made me feel really secure and special and the sex was incredible; very spontaneous, he wasn't a prude at all and loved trying new things. However, we weren't in love.. so that was that, but it was a memorable experience.
So you know that it's not a hopelessly unrealistic fantasy to have such a relationship, but you also know that it not only isn't guaranteed, it isn't even very likely in a statistical sense. Still, unlikely things happen every day, so you might get lucky, either with your current husband, or in your next relationship... or the one after that... or...Quote:
There was a glimmer of something like this with my husband in the beginning. I think we have the potential to have a relationship like that, but we don't, for whatever reasons. I did share a relationship like this with someone I was involved with in college, but since then have only seen it in a few other couples, mostly much older.
I sincerely wish you well. These are not easy choices, I know.
I don't know, honestly. I saw your post yesterday and didn't want to reply till I sorted it out a bit. :o I always thought that he would not care as much as I would if anything happened to us. I guess its not that simple. But one thing I know for sure is that I could not hurt him,. and cannot bear to see him hurt. (I know that sounds maudlin but I mean it.) Maybe that answers some of the questions you asked me in this post. And maybe you'll ask me something else now that I may find difficult to answer... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
I've been doing that for a long time now ~ I'd have gone nuts if I hadn't. :) It does not exactly compensate so its been somewhat unsatisfying. Mostly I don't go to sleep till very late -- I stay up all night - sometimes reading, watching TV,. or surfing porn sites. A few months back, I started chatting online. I know that it would be so easy to get together with someone just for sex. I would often get really tempted but then think of my husband and start crying... and the whole thing made me feel disgusted with myself. So... back to trying to figure out how to work my husband..Quote:
If you stay with him, you may have to learn to do without sex-as-intimacy. That doesn't mean that you have to be resigned to no sex at all. You may have seen my comment to batybird about this:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
My advice is to masturbate regularly. There is an element of use-it-or-lose-it to sexual function. You don't have to feel guilty or self-conscious or apologetic to either your husband or yourself for keeping your sexual machinery (both mental and physical) lubricated and maintained. Does it seem wrong to think of it as "machinery"? Not to me.
That's very true.Quote:
I'm sure this must have been quite devastating for him, and understandably so. He has a physical disability that makes it difficult or impossible to have the kind of sex most of us think of as "normal". But it sounds like you would be quite willing to adapt, innovate, and be creative in coming up with other ways to show affection and be intimate, but he isn't willing to go that route and seems to have given up on all forms of intimacy whatsoever.
I've actually tried to talk to him a few times over the years. At those times, I'm the one who talks, and he keeps quiet. If I ask him what he thinks, he usually responds that he doesn't know what to say. My tone ranges from gentle to cautious to reasonable to sometimes slightly upset. It's hard to remind him about this and make him feel bad; but the worst is that he doesn't respond, and doesn't want to respond. I get the feeling that he feels that if he ignores it, it'll just go away. Maybe I'm wrong - maybe he's just feeling helpless about the whole thing; in which case, I don't want to be mean to him either.Quote:
I guess you really need to decide whether this is a state you're willing to live in for the foreseeable future. Have you considered putting your feelings in writing for him? It would allow you to be careful and precise in saying what really matters to you, and to tell him just how important it is to you to have some form of physical and emotional intimacy, even if it isn't conventional intercourse. If you aren't willing to completely give up on intimacy and settle for a "buddy/roommate" kind of marriage, you can lay that out in clear terms, so that he can decide how to respond.
Of course, you can't be sure that if you leave him you will find a fulfilling relationship with somebody else. It could happen, but it might not, so if you'd rather have the kind of marriage you have now than to be alone, don't bluff about leaving. Personally, I would rather be lonely by myself than with somebody else around, but that's for you to decide. All I'm saying is be sure you're ready to follow through before you issue any ultimatums.
About continuing like this - I don't want to, but I can't even think of leaving or breaking up at this time. I realize that I have this problem that cannot be resolved easily, or resolved at all. You're so right about my options. I don't want to be by myself unless I had no other choice.
You ask some hard questions. :) I don't have an answer to that yet; what about you?Quote:
So from him you learned that good sex without love wasn't enough, and from your husband you're learning that platonic love without sex isn't satisfying either. What's next, do you suppose?
How many people are you expecting me to have relationships with? :pQuote:
So you know that it's not a hopelessly unrealistic fantasy to have such a relationship, but you also know that it not only isn't guaranteed, it isn't even very likely in a statistical sense. Still, unlikely things happen every day, so you might get lucky, either with your current husband, or in your next relationship... or the one after that... or...
Thank you. I wish you well back also! Hope you know that it means a lot to me to be able to talk to someone about this. You and everyone here have given me a lot of insightful posts and helped me to understand myself and my relationship with my husband better. Please keep posting whenever you can.Quote:
I sincerely wish you well. These are not easy choices, I know.
@ flicka: Thanks, I appreciate your saying that. :)
I don't know the whole circumstance, but do feel that channeling your frustrations into positive productive, things will help as, you seek a solution that works for you.
There is no reason not to spend your time enjoying the things that make you happy, then you won't be as tempted by the urge to find someone to scratch that itch, and deal with guilt on top of frustration.
Hi Shy--
Well, you certainly have provided a lot of material to work with here. I like that. I'll take it a bite at a time, as time allows.
Nope, nothing simple about it. Are you saying that you feel more emotionally dependent on him than you think he is on you? I guess I see you as less dependent on him than you suppose. If you were really dependent on him for emotional sustenance, you would have starved to death by now, because he's given you NOTHING for quite awhile, by the sound of it. He, on the other hand is like an emotional black hole that sucks in everything you can give, and it seems to disappear without a trace or observable effect. In that sense, he's utterly dependent on you, because I'll bet nobody else is pouring much energy into his reservoir.Quote:
Originally Posted by shykitte
Yes, I'm sure you do mean it, and I'm sure he knows that, and uses it, consciously or not, to manipulate you. He knows that all he has to do is assume the pained and distant air of a true sufferer, and you'll quit insisting that he engage emotionally and will leave him alone with his pain. I don't doubt that he is in genuine pain, just as you are, but his unwillingness to engage and work through it to some kind of resolution, or even one small step in the direction of healing, is a cop-out that keeps both of you stuck in the emotional desert.Quote:
But one thing I know for sure is that I could not hurt him,. and cannot bear to see him hurt. (I know that sounds maudlin but I mean it.)
The truth is that being hurt is a chosen response, and therefore no one can hurt another, at least not repeatedly, without their consent. I'm not denying that some people act with cruel intent, or that the objects of that cruelty are wrong to be hurt by it. But I am saying that being "hurt" by another person's words or actions is often a defensive maneuver to avoid having to confront the truth of what they're telling us. Sometimes, the truth hurts, but that doesn't mean we're doing people a favor to let them continually ignore and avoid it.
Is any of this even close?Quote:
Maybe that answers some of the questions you asked me in this post. And maybe you'll ask me something else now that I may find difficult to answer... :)
Continuing on...
I guess it depends on what you expect it to be. Of course, it doesn't compensate for an emotional relationship. But as a gift to yourself, and as a physical and biochemical balancing act, it's better than atrophy and sclerosis.Quote:
Originally Posted by shykitte
I had noticed that most of your posts were made in the wee hours. How do you manage this? Do you work?Quote:
Mostly I don't go to sleep till very late -- I stay up all night - sometimes reading, watching TV,. or surfing porn sites. A few months back, I started chatting online. I know that it would be so easy to get together with someone just for sex. I would often get really tempted but then think of my husband and start crying... and the whole thing made me feel disgusted with myself. So... back to trying to figure out how to work my husband..
Does your husband know that this is how you spend your nights? Would he be hurt if he did?
I know that talking hasn't worked, that's why I asked about writing. You write very well, and are obviously quite capable of expressing yourself clearly in that way. Have you tried it? The process of putting it into written form could be helpful for you whether he ever reads it or not.Quote:
I've actually tried to talk to him a few times over the years.
Ohhh, this sounds so familiar. I've always been a talker, with great faith in the efficacy of "talking things out". But my wife has taught me that talking doesn't necessarily produce a solution for every problem, or a resolution of every conflict. If I had a dollar for every time I've heard, "I don't want to talk about it", or "I don't know what to say", I'd be a rich man. A person who doesn't want to communicate can't be forced into it.Quote:
At those times, I'm the one who talks, and he keeps quiet. If I ask him what he thinks, he usually responds that he doesn't know what to say. My tone ranges from gentle to cautious to reasonable to sometimes slightly upset. It's hard to remind him about this and make him feel bad; but the worst is that he doesn't respond, and doesn't want to respond. I get the feeling that he feels that if he ignores it, it'll just go away.
He probably is feeling hopeless, but insisting that he engage emotionally with you is not "being mean to him". The sexual dysfunction is a (mostly) physical problem, but using that as an excuse to shut you out emotionally and to refuse all forms of intimacy and affection is just wrong.Quote:
Maybe I'm wrong - maybe he's just feeling helpless about the whole thing; in which case, I don't want to be mean to him either.
Of course you can think of it, and you already have, lots of times. I accept that you aren't ready to take action "at this time", but you certainly have thought about it, and you know that it could eventually come to that.Quote:
About continuing like this - I don't want to, but I can't even think of leaving or breaking up at this time.
I think it's fair to say that it can't be resolved within the limits of the options you're willing to consider "at this time". That doesn't mean that it can't ever be resolved, it just means that the time is not yet ripe.Quote:
I realize that I have this problem that cannot be resolved easily, or resolved at all.
You will always have another choice, but not necessarily one that's healthier than being alone. The fear of being alone keeps a lot of people locked in unhealthy relationships. When you no longer fear solitude and loneliness, you will be ready for a truly equal relationship, but not before. What is the longest you have ever gone without being involved in a relationship? Have you ever lived alone? For how long?Quote:
You're so right about my options. I don't want to be by myself unless I had no other choice.
I do my best.Quote:
You ask some hard questions. :)
I'll PM you about this...Quote:
I don't have an answer to that yet; what about you?
As many as it takes.Quote:
How many people are you expecting me to have relationships with? :p
I will. It's kind of a mystery to me why discussing these most intimate matters with complete strangers helps, but sometimes it does.Quote:
Thank you. I wish you well back also! Hope you know that it means a lot to me to be able to talk to someone about this. You and everyone here have given me a lot of insightful posts and helped me to understand myself and my relationship with my husband better. Please keep posting whenever you can.
Has he always been sort of reluctant to get physical? If so, is it possible he has ADD? I ask because people with ADD or a form of high-functioning autism, for instance, do not like to touch or be touched. The ED could be exacerbating that situation.
Did he have trouble focusing in school and sticking to business? Does he start projects, but never finishes them because he's lost interest? Does he have a strong startle reflex? Is he a creature of habit--likes to reread the same books, eat the same kinds of food, go to the same restaurants? Does he get upset with changes, even something like if you rearranged the furniture in a room (especially without telling him beforehand) or repainted the kitchen without his input? Does he keep lots of lists tucked into a pocket?
@ talaniman:
Thanks, talaniman, I've been aware of your advice from earlier in this thread and also on baty's forum. I am trying to get involved in productive and good things that I enjoy doing to keep myself occupied. Is that a way to distract myself? :) Does it work?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
@ ordinaryguy: I'll try to respond to some of your comments here and the rest in a separate post.
@ Wondergirl:
Thanks for checking. I believe the diabetic meds and his high sugar levels are the primary cause of the ED. I don't think he was reluctant to get physical before the diabetes. Unfortunately, I didn't know him then, but my impression from what I've heard about him is that he was like any normal guy. And no, he does not have ADD or any form of autism. He is an intelligent, reasonable, well-informed, mature and good-hearted guy. As far as I know, he was above average in school; and he's organized and proactive in his work and in any business he attempts. He has never started any project that he has not finished, and finished well; and he doesn't read a book more than once. I haven't painted a kitchen or room by myself (:p ) or without telling him, but if I did, he would not get upset unless it was an incredibly freaky horrible color or something like that. If he's not provoked - which is rare, he is calm and laid back. And lastly, no, he does not keep lists in his pocket. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
In general, he is interested in many things: sports, current affairs, financial investments, gardening, cooking, woodworking... and travel. He loves to travel (as do I~) and to explore new places, meet new people, try new foods, etc. and is avidly interested in history and culture. Together, we have travelled all over the US and also to Canada, Europe, Africa and Asia in the past 8 years. Life has been an adventure in many ways.
As a rule, he's a thoughtful and considerate husband. I have no complaints about him except for the total lack of sex and romance of any sort in our relationship.
@ ordinaryguy: yes, I work. :) I'm a Realtor, so I have some flexibilty. Some days I have clients, like yesterday - then I go to bed early. Other days I'm usually up all night. I'm very sleepy tonight so I'll answer all your comments in detail tomorrow.
Not distract, refocusing. Do things that make you happy, and keep you balanced, and share that happiness with your husband. Yes it does work, just be patient with the process, as it will help you build the bonds of communications, so you can work together better.Quote:
Is that a way to distract myself? :) Does it work?
I'm not saying it will cure your sex life, merely give you a positive perspective.
It will help build on what you obviously have already, a deep love and respect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
In some ways I’m more emotionally dependent on this relationship as a whole - than on just him. What I mean by that is that there are many aspects of our relationship that I do not want to give up because/in spite of the issues we have. But after saying that, I asked myself if I was emotionally dependent on him; and WHY…, if I was. (You started this… )
To a certain degree, yes I am. I may be more dependent on an Idea of what he could be like than what he actually is like. I think there are a lot of us in similar relationships who do the same thing. But I am also emotionally dependent on him because of my love and liking for him, which I do not want to give up. When I read what you said about him being like a black hole -- my first instinct was to defend him outright, but then I reluctantly had to agree that there is some truth to it. Not entirely, but some.
It’s true that he does not express affection or passion; and he avoids any form of intimacy. That is a huge part of a relationship. But he is incredibly considerate and caring in almost every other way. There are things he does for me and for us that leaves me in no doubt that he loves me. That does not excuse the fact that he is depriving me and us of one of the most basic reasons for a relationship.
Is that enough to let go of the relationship though?
It’s funny because when I replied to you about this, at first I wrote: “I’ve thought about leaving many times…” and then took it out.Quote:
“About continuing like this - I don't want to, but I can't even think of leaving or breaking up at this time.”
Of course you can think of it, and you already have, lots of times. I accept that you aren't ready to take action "at this time", but you certainly have thought about it, and you know that it could eventually come to that.
Can I live without him? I guess I could but it would be VERY difficult to give him up. I try to imagine what it would be like for me to be without him, and ….you’re right, I’m not ready to give him up or give up on us at this time.
I agree.Quote:
Yes, I'm sure you do mean it, and I'm sure he knows that, and uses it, consciously or not, to manipulate you. He knows that all he has to do is assume the pained and distant air of a true sufferer, and you'll quit insisting that he engage emotionally and will leave him alone with his pain. I don't doubt that he is in genuine pain, just as you are, but his unwillingness to engage and work through it to some kind of resolution, or even one small step in the direction of healing, is a cop-out that keeps both of you stuck in the emotional desert.
That is a very interesting perspective, - to choose whether you let someone continually hurt you or not. It seems so simple and so logical. If only more people realized that, I believe that would make for a lot more happier relationships.Quote:
The truth is that being hurt is a chosen response, and therefore no one can hurt another, at least not repeatedly, without their consent. I'm not denying that some people act with cruel intent, or that the objects of that cruelty are wrong to be hurt by it. But I am saying that being "hurt" by another person's words or actions is often a defensive maneuver to avoid having to confront the truth of what they're telling us. Sometimes, the truth hurts, but that doesn't mean we're doing people a favor to let them continually ignore and avoid it.
What do you think ? :)Quote:
Is any of this even close?
Yes, he knows. When I mentioned looking at porn sites to him, all he did was acknowledge it. I don’t know exactly how he feels about it, but I’m sure he feels like he should let me do whatever I like since he can’t do anything about it. If he does feel hurt, he might have done something to resolve it... ….Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
Thank you for that compliment! I’m flattered that you think so, as you’re an excellent writer yourself.Quote:
I know that talking hasn't worked, that's why I asked about writing. You write very well, and are obviously quite capable of expressing yourself clearly in that way. Have you tried it? The process of putting it into written form could be helpful for you whether he ever reads it or not.
Yes, I’ve written about how I feel a few times. They were mostly rants of frustration but surprisingly, I was less resentful afterwards.
I’ve never lived alone. There was always family or roommates – not by deliberate choice but just because circumstances happened that way.Quote:
You will always have another choice, but not necessarily one that's healthier than being alone. The fear of being alone keeps a lot of people locked in unhealthy relationships. When you no longer fear solitude and loneliness, you will be ready for a truly equal relationship, but not before. What is the longest you have ever gone without being involved in a relationship? Have you ever lived alone? For how long?
The longest I went without being involved with anyone was for 2 years - right after my first marriage ended in divorce.
Since I’ve never been alone, I don’t know what that is like. So I don’t know if I’ll be afraid of it or not. It might be liberating – not having to live with or think about anyone except myself. Or it might be lonelier than I expect – so I don’t know.
I guess getting a fresh perspective and an unbiased and impartial point of view helps. Besides which, we can secretly ask a stranger to help without admitting to people who know us that we are in need of help… :)Quote:
It's kind of a mystery to me why discussing these most intimate matters with complete strangers helps, but sometimes it does.
I appreciate your advice, talaniman, and will do what I can. If you think of anything else, please keep posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
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