What if he had told you in the beginning he watched porn, and would keep doing it no matter how you felt? Would you have even dated him for a year, or at all?
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What if he had told you in the beginning he watched porn, and would keep doing it no matter how you felt? Would you have even dated him for a year, or at all?
If he told me in the beginning then I wouldn't mind as much. But if he said from the start he wouldn't be willing to stop or at least cut down for me, then I would wonder what other areas he would be selfish in and I wouldn't think that he would love me. But he wants to change because he does feel that he was wrong. And I do so much for him and I have sacrificed a lot for himQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
That's going to change... First not because its wrong... as it wasn't... but the older you get... the more you realise pressuring the other into doing something other than they want is too much like living under your parents... and resentment WILL begin to grow...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmac420
What seems reasonible to the mindset of someone barely an adult in their very early 20's... is going to infuriate the same people by 30. I'm 51... I've lived and experienced all those stages... (and don't doubt there will be a few more before I check out... )
Like its so wrong he speaks with another female if he has you... or him getting upset because you spoke to another guy because you have him... something you might have grown out of by now... but just a few years ago might have seemed reasonible in your teens.
And like that most people see what's wrong with dictating or pressuring (its the same thing) what can and can't be watched... and if he was really into football and you really hated it... how would that be any different if you tried to keep him from that?
When I hear "sacrifice" when it comes to a relationship... red flags start going up.
Relationships that are meant to be... don't require frequent or constant sacrifice... sacrifices are forcing something to work... that doesn't naturally work.. You discover this usually only after falling into a relationship that's just right the way it is... and nobody has to change anything or sacrifice anything. THAT is the type of relationship that lead to my marriage. And kept that marriage together for over 20 years... one could also call it mutual respect... meaning we each respect each other the way we are... naturally.
I realize my opinions will probably change on it but as of now I am not comfortable with him watching it
My suggestion... work harder on dealing with it... before he decides its not worth dealing with...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmac420
Speaking as a guy... who knows how guys think. We will tell you one thing to get you to stay quiet about it... and go do it anyway... while developing resentment the whole time.
Eventually it builds to the point we decide... (fill in a name) is pretty nice and she doesn't seem like this.
I believe you are going to understand this over time... many people do... but usually after leaving a string of relationships in shambles before it dawns on them... a few never do... and they end up divorced a number of times... single at 50 or 60, bitter and convinced its everyone else's fault... not theirs...
No don't take that as a personal jab... it wasn't meant to be... I actually know people like that... who I can and do consider friends... but hell would freeze over before I'd have anything to do with them romantically because of the attitudes they developed even if I woke up single tomorrow..
Seriously... I know a couple single divorced women... (who never dated anyone seriously since their divorces) some of whom have been divorced for in the range 15 years and still act like they got divorced last week or are still in the middle of one... (talk about holding grudges).
You have to learn to let some things go... lifes too short. Focusing on the negatives... only keeps you from seeing the positives. I know I became a happier person when I learned to do that.
Sure my wife does a few things that upset me from time to time... I have learned to let it go because her other positives offset the few negatives.
That was extremely well put Smoothy.
You have an agreement made with him under duress, and trying to lessen the effects of arguing about his porn use, and as always happens now it has become a trust issue on your part. That may be an indication of other things just beneath the surface that are not as obvious as the porn issue which is easily identified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmac420
Why do I think that at the heart of this is you wanting him to sacrifice as much as you think you have or he hasn't given as much as you have? Did you have resentments already that made the porn an easy target to vent about? Wonder what other issues were annoying you but you have never said anything about?
There really is nothing I resent him for or anything else that bothers me about him besides this. I accept him for who he is and don't judge his imperfections and I am not perfect either. I am just upset that he gets off to other women when he has me and lies about it. That's really it.
That's really all
They aren't really "other women." They are breasts and butts and other female body parts. YOU are the real and complete woman in his life and the one who satisfies his soul as well as his body. Don't push him into a corner and make him lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmac420
You are right. Thank you:)
I don't think the promise is worth much. He promised the same before. Your values don't mesh about porn.
I don't think you're repressed or that there's anything at all wrong with you. You just have a different standard for your relationship than does your partner. These things are pretty deeply entrenched, so I don't think either of you are likely to change. The larger issue isn't porn, but rather the fact that he told you what he thought you wanted to hear, then did whatever he wanted behind your back. He knew doing so you'd likely find out - these things rarely stay hidden for long - and that when you did, it would upset you.
This discussion got sidetracke into a pro/con for porn. The only opinion on porn that matters is yours. If you can accept it, then you need to tell him you can accept it and what the boundaries are. If you can't, you need to rethink the relationship because he isn't likely to really stop using it and at a fundamental level, he disagrees about it with you.
My concern would be that you could replace porn with another conflict. Say you had a shared goal to a $50 cash allowance each per week, with the rest of your money going to budget items and savings toward your first house. How would you feel if he agreed to only spend $50, then spent $75 figuring what you didn't know wouldn't hurt you?
Or what if you have children one day and you agree to use "time out" with the child for a particular behavior. He's all on board when you talk about it, but when you leave and he's with the kids, he blows off the time out because he truly doesn't agree with it.
I personally would rather my partner tell me flat out, "I'm not on the same page with you - I think you're wrong and I'm not going along with you on this one". I might concede, might work for a compromise or might decide that we're not compatible. In any event, at least we're both operating from an understanding of each other that's relevant and true.
As for whether you feel you can have sex with him, I really don't think the porn is about you. It's his fantasy life separate from real life. That said, I wouldn't have sex with someone I couldn't trust to tell me the truth. What else has he lied about in the relationship? That question would remain in my mind.
He said that he feels ashamed and embarrassed about himself for hiding porn. I guess I understand why he lied about it. He hasn't lied to me about anything else (that I know of) and he has been trustworthy in every other way.
Its only a lie because she was pushing him into saying something she really didn't have a right to make him say...Quote:
Originally Posted by dontknownuthin
If one time You made a promise to have a threesome.. or ave anal sex and you just to make him hapopy even if you never really intended to do it (doesn't matter if it was under durress or the heat of the moment)... then you get upset if he brings it up when he wants it... how is that promise any different? You promised him you would... therefore under the same argument you should have done it because you promissed?
Well the basic flaw in this stance is... he's an adult... and not subordinate to you any more than you are to him... therefore the person pressuring for a promise didn't have any moral right to be demanding it to begin with... and absolutely no more than he would have pressuring you into having a threesome you didn't really want to have.
You are both adults and make your own decisions... Husbands and wives don't even get to force the other into doing what they don't want to do.
How is forcing someone to make a promise then holding them to it and different than pressuring someone to agree to have a threesome then holding them to that same promise?
The answer is there isn't one...
And the people that get the most upset.. are usually the least willing to do anything someone else was pushing them to do oddly enough. Thus the control issues... either overt or passive-agressive. As long as THEY are making the demands its all justified.. however if the tables were turned... they would be screaming loudly.
Seen it way too often... and even older people do it sometimes... but rarely as aften as people from 14 through 26-28 do.
Incidentally... if I was dating someone who came up to me and called me a liar... more than once... would have found herself walking home... literally... not figuratively.
Last one that pulled that with me... was left at a bus station to buy her own ticket home... about 2,000 miles from home. A few others had to call and have someone pick them up from a party after they got in my face and I walked out.
Respect is a two way street... if you want it... you better be ready to show it, single or married.
Never really think old saying have any real significance...
Here's one that fits... "Whats good for the goose is good for the gander." Make him promisse something he doesn't want to do... you better be ready to do the same... fair is fair.
But basically making someone make dumb playground promises just cheapens the value of a real promise made from the heart.
Reminds me of the commercial about honest Abe being asked by Martha "does this dress make my butt look big?", and because he couldn't lie and say "NO DEAR!", Martha stalked off pissed.
Not all lies are meant to deceive. Some are to save hurt feelings, or big arguments you can't win. Stay off his phone!!
But if a person did lie, then calling him/her a liar is calling him/her what he/she is. It's different than a false accusation. And, in this case, regardless of why he lied, he did lie.Quote:
Incidentally... if I was dating someone who came up to me and called me a liar... more than once... would have found herself walking home... literally... not figuratively.
(ha, I think all of these 'he/she' inserts are why we always use 'they' when referring to a singular hypothetical person)
At any rate, I think a practical perspective is the easiest way to be objective about the whole thing. It's nice that he made that promise but it could very well be as sincere as the initial lie. He told it to spare your feelings and/or save him the grief that the truth would bring. It's not impossible that he meant it, but if I were you, I'd be prepared for that promise to be insincere.
You have two choices: You can stay with him, accept the way he is and stop bugging him to be someone else OR you can leave him. You have to pick one, with all conditions. If you choose to stay now that you know the truth, you have to be prepared for him to persist in being himself (i.e. to not change) and you cannot ask him to.
Smoothy, it seems you have misunderstood my advice.
I'm not suggesting that this lady tell her boyfriend what to do. I'm suggesting that she determine whether his using pornography is a deal breaker issue for her. He's not likely to change, nor to be honest about it if that's her expectation. So, if it bothers her as much as is appears to, it seems she might want to break up with him. I would suggest she do, not out of spite or anger or to punish him like a child, but because they are not compatible in an important aspect of their relationship.
Nor am I recommending that she tell him what to do. I think it's a waste of time to boss our partners around, personally - they resent it, don't usually follow through and it reduces an adult relationship to something childish. To me, it makes more sense to choose someone with whom we're compatible to start with, and then, to have a mutual expectation and commitment to act honestly and honorably in resolving disagreements. Some disagreements are deal breakers and neither side can or should give in. Others are more minor, and they can make adjustments, each moderting their behavior out of consideration for the other. You're right that she can't call all the shots, but she certainly can draw some boundaries about what she can accept in the relationship, and it might mean that if he isn't in agreement, they can't stay together. He probably has some deal breaker issues as well.
For example, I would not be with a guy who's an alcoholic and expect him to change for me. Since I don't like being around excessive drinking, I would only date a moderate drinker. On the other hand, if I were with a guy (and I am) with whom I agreed on the big things, I'd let some of the small stuff slide. For example, I find it annoying that he leaves his shoes in the middle of the doorway instead of off to the side. It's a small price for a great relationship to move his shoes when they are in my way. He noticed that I was doing this, and now he puts them out of the way to start with.
I've made adjustments, too. I noticed that he looked annoyed by my music choices in the car. We talked about it and I learned what he likes better. I don't like all of his taste either, but there's a lot that we both like, and we listen to that when we're together.
Making some adjustments is just common courtesy. Demanding changes is childish. If we have to demand that our partner change things that are major issues for us, we're probably with the wrong person.
You clearly have some boundaries, too. For example, you don't like dramatic women who get in your face, or who call you a liar (apparently, whether you've lied or not... that's not clear though). I guess you're best off being with a woman who isn't so dramatic as to make scenes in bars - and I'd say, maybe a girl who's willing to drive herself on dates, since you might leave her behind in an unsafe situation if she says the wrong thing. We all have our limits - what we can live with or not.
He said that I am worth stopping porn for and he said he will do whatever it takes to make me happy. He makes me happy in every other way and he said it won't be hard for him to stop. Whether that's true or not, I do not know but to me it's worth a try because he's everything to me and I to him. He's trying to make things better, and they have gotten better. I think that everything will be good and back to normal soon enough. Thank you everyone for your feedback
But it's not his job to "make" you happy. Your happiness is what YOU are responsible for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmac420
If he has been pushed into a corner again, I predict more lies if you confront or question him.
How much do you love him? Do you love him enough to allow him to be happy, especially if all it would take is something harmless that won't even effect you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmac420
He's not choosing to do something, he's doing it to make you happy. Seems like this relationship is very one way, it's all about your happiness, and what you want. Sooner or later the person giving up everything for the other, will walk away because it's not worth it.
Thanks for taking the time to clarify your thoughts on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontknownuthin
Oh... those cases I left them without a ride went far beyond a simple comment... I can blow off a slip of the tongue as easy as anyone... just not what happened in those cases... never went into detail nor will I, but lets say... leaving them there was my way of defusing a situation that could have easily escalated. Most people would have done the same thing if they were in my shoes at the time because of what would have happened if the cooler head had not removed themselves from a bad situation before it went critical.
I was actually commended a few times for doing it by people who were there and saw what went down for being able to walk away without smacking them first. By both men AND women.
He told him that he thinks it was wrong of him and he regrets it and he wants to stop. Maybe if he didn't watch it so often and didn't lie about it I wouldn't mind. Believe me it's not a one sided relationship because I really do a whole lot for him and I enjoy doing things for him as he does for me too
And he said that because he knows that is what you want to hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmac420
Yep... I'd wager money he is still actually doing it... just being more careful to hide it from her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Nothing makes a man want to do something more than someone telling him he can't do it.
Did he explain why he thinks it's wrong? Has he always felt bad about watching porn or thought it is morally wrong before he was with you? Or does he only feel wrong about it because he's with you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmac420
The likely hood is he's being persuaded by your opinion because you feel so strongly and hurt about it. But as this argument fades and he gets time to himself...
What major pleasurable things have you stopped doing because he told you they are wrong and he doesn't like them and your doing them makes him feel neglected?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmac420
She may not do anything he objects to. If she does, she needs to consider his feelings and stop.
If she's going out to bachelorette parties against his wishes, he is in the right to ask her not to go and she should consider what he's changed for her and honor those wishes. Or if he's annoyed that she leaves her makeup and clothes all over the bathroom, she needs to have the maturity to think "he's honoring my wishes, I need to honor his" and put her stuff away out of courtesy to him. It doesn't have to be an exact trade, but an ongoing process of doing what they can out of consideration for one another.
It's another thing if either of them try to control the other, but asking for the other person to stop doing something that we find hurtful or annoying is not unreasonable. Maybe she texts at the dinner table - rude, she should stop if he asks her to. Or he leaves his stuff all over the house after she cleans up - he should pick up after himself out of consideration.
I'm surprised that this is even an issue - don't we all try to be courteous of people we love, and avoid doing things that are hurtful to them? We can't always honor our loved ones wishes, but when we can, it makes for a nice world.
If you think for one minute that he's giving up porn willingly, you're delusional. He's giving it up because you're ticked off about it, you want him to stop, you're willing to sever the relationship if he doesn't. He'll just find better ways to hide it, and that's the saddest part of all of this, because he shouldn't have to hide it! He should be allowed to be who he is, do what he wants (especially something that doesn't have any effect on you, and is legal) but you're putting down the gauntlet and ordering him to stop, and he's so pu$$y whipped that he's going to do it, rather than stick up for himself and realize that he has rights too.
That's the sort of thing people do when dating... pretending to be something other than they really are. Its gets really old after at most a few years...Quote:
Originally Posted by dontknownuthin
Not being able to relax and be yourself sucks... feeling a need to do everything just because someone else expects you to... is a burden that sucks the fun out of life...
Now keep in mind what I mean by that... if you HAVE to do that you are trying to make a round peg fit in a square hole.
If your relationship really is a good match... you can each do your own thing... and it doesn't bother the other... because you are both being yourself... and as a result... comfortable doing it. Because you don't have to go against your true nature... or force anything. And neither does your partner.
That's the secret to a long relationship without constant friction or resentment. And most people if they have to constantly do something against their nature just to make someone else happy... will grow to resent doing it over time.
No its not wrong to ask something... its wrong to insist on it. People are who they are... you can't and shouldn't try to mold someone to fit what you want... you should find someone who actually is like you want.
A leopard can't change its spots. Some people spend years or decades before they learn the wisdom behind that. Time they will never get back.
Spoken by someone who learned that lesson 20 years before the average person knew what the internet even was much less got it in their house.
Red flag, red flag - and maybe someone addressed it prior to this and I missed it. I get cases, probably 4 to 6 a year, when someone has "videos of us," "us" breaks up and those videos are passed around and/or posted.
This person has lied repeatedly to the OP while looking her in the face, is pretending to be someone he is not (and I'm not addressing the porn. I'm addressing the lying about the porn) and she's not concerned that he has videos (and apparently pictures) of "us"?
I suspect this will be my next "do somethng to make him stop showing these videos to his friends" case.
I never connected PERSONAL videos with those being shown to his friends... I thought it was generic videos...
That would be a hugely different thing, and I for one would be not at all be cool with.
"He has videos of us and pictures of me so why should he need to watch porn and lie?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Again, the advise is to choose to be with someone with whom we're compatible on the major, deal breaker issues. If we pick someone with whom we're compatible on issues we do not feel we can compromise on, then we can be flexible on the rest because it doesn't bother us to give in on those things or make a compromise. The thing is though, there are times we find out something after we've been in a relationship for a while that's a deal-breaker issue for us. We have to deal with these things honestly if we want a good relationship, knowing that the issue might end the relationship. It's not a manipulation to acknowledge the truth as in, "I can't stay in a relationship with you if you're going to continue doing that". It's just the truth.
I suppose it could become a manipulation if an immature person makes such remarks when they don't mean it, or any time they don't get their way but I think we're talking about a higher level of maturity here.
Similarly, the boyfriend might find out that she's gambling, running up huge debt to cover losses. He might also say, "If you don't get help with this and stop gambling and deal with this debt, we're going to have to break up. I don't see a future wish someone who will drag me into bankruptcy".
I'm 51... I've been dating since I was 15... if you have to bend and contort every day to not upset the other person... its not going to last long... and I consider even five years like that a long time... most people will get fed up in a lot less time... and you have to be a true submissive masochist to put up with it for longer than that...Quote:
Originally Posted by dontknownuthin
And if you look at the divorce rates... they will back up what I said... people think OH... I can put up with this because I can't do any better... or I'm desperate for anyone.. not just the right one.
Eventually it gets on their nerves... and they begin to understand they aren't really happy after all... or worse... they begin to really hate the other person. It rarely happens overnight... but it creeps up a little at a time.
Now I'm not talking about the " please dear would you not fart on the couch when I'm sitting next to you" type thing. But more of the " you will dres this way...talk this way....you will not associate with those friends you had since childhood because I don't like them...but you WILL have to put up with MY annoying frineds". Or "Get rid of all those old trophies and memorabilia you've had for decades because they don't fit in with the new curtains and bedspread I just got at a flea market"
Or even.. ".I don't like sports....there will be no sports in this house if you want to sleep with me"
Those are slightly exaggerated for impact... but those are real things I've known women to pull... I single out the woman in the example only because I'm a straight man... so that's my perspective. It could be a guy doing it to a woman just as easily.
I single out the differences between a single request... from long term manipulation by the amount of time one has to do something.
Example... "Don't watch that ballgame today because there is something I really want to see" Simple closed end request... short and one time in nature. Not an unreasonible request.
Vs. "Don't watch football (or pick any sport) because I hate sports and don't want to listen to them ever. Which is an open ended... long term request.. with no foreseeable cutoff... I see a big problem with that.
Simple requests are fine and not what I would consider out of line... its the open ended long term things that I do.
Something usually becomes manipulation long before the effected person recognises it as such.
Another example would be like a guy trying to talk a clearly smitten girl... I like you but you really need a boob job because I'm a boob guy... and keeps asking her over and over when she really has nothing wrong with her boobs and doesn't want a boob job... that is until the moment she relents and gets it... then hates them... because she was pushed into it to make him happy and keep the peace.. In time she resents being talked into it.. and they divorce or break up.
I am in agreement with dontknownuthin about dealbreakers - it was a case I had unsuccessfully tried to make before. People can encounter differences that can't be overcome. When such issues come up, I think it's right to say "I can't stay in a relationship with you if you really think this way/if you continue down this path/etc.," It seems like manipulation and a threat - it's often presumed to be that and only that in these situations.
But how else should it be dealt with? Should one person just leave without explaining first? And, as soon as they do explain, should they assume blame for 'pressuring' someone into change? If I were doing something that upset my partner so much he wanted to leave me, I hope he'd at least discuss it with me before walking out. Then it would be up to me if I think my behavior needs changing and/or if my relationship is motivation/reason enough to make that change.
Honest communication is necessary for a good relationship, something smoothy has been advocating. It doesn't mean that such communication can't/won't be used for manipulation. But not being honest about issues that are major (if only major to one partner) can be as damaging as manipulation and insincere promises.
Honesty starts with the first date, or encounter, and builds through the grand process of dating. Getting to know someone. Many jump into the experiment of living together so quickly they have not in fact made neither a credible agreement, nor a commitment, nor paid attention to the red flags (questions/behavior) they find annoying. They are unprepared to be room mates.
Without this honesty from the get go, when the fun of lust fades what's left, and what do you do about it? Simple room mates would leave or make adjustments, through honest communications. So the greatest compatibility issues are solved through communicating and the willingness to compromise. Without either, you may as well face facts and leave each other alone and go your separate ways.
Without agreement, AND commitment, you are wasting time any way, and the grand experiment of living together fails.
People have addictions to certain things in life. Watching porn is just one of those things. Try and divert the addicted person's attention to something more productive like gardening, taking care of pets or other people. A person who has a lot of free time and don't know what to do with it becomes idle. Idle hands can do undesirable things.
Cure an addiction to porn or anything else by gardening?
I see no indication that the boyfriend is watching porn because he's bored.
And your opinion about him lying?
How did you conclude that this is an addiction? The OP never mentioned anything that would lead to that conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by jcsaviour921
(I was shipped to china, and have just had a chance to look at this thread.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmac420
If he was honest and told you about it, would it make you feel better? "Honey, I off to watch some midget porn. It is this really hot one where bridget takes on the football team. I will be in my office."
Just had to put in that comment.
OMFG! This exact thing happened to me. I told him how much it hurt me and I used all the words I had to tell him and he felt so bad that he stopped. I was so controlling and told him not to. Porn was the one thing that could hurt me more than anything and it happened anyway... If you tell him the reasons you're not okay with it and how much it pains you to see and hear this happening maybe he will get the idea. If he loves you he will not want to see you hurting.
And if she loves him she'll realize that forbidding someone to do something that has nothing to do with you, is legal, and is done by most men, is not okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meffikinz
Why should he have to prove his love?
Let's turn the tables. Let's say he really dislikes her job, it makes him uncomfortable, it's the one thing that can hurt him, it pains him. Does he have the right to tell her to quit? Should she quit to make him happy?
Bottom line, if she can't accept who he is, can't accept that porn has nothing to do with his love for her, or his passion for her, can't let him be who he is, then she should find someone else, someone whose hobbies or likes she can tolerate. No one should have to change to make someone else happy. That's not love.
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