 |
Yes I would. Only for the right person though. And keep in mind, that it is very very difficult for guys to see this from your perspective. They just plain think about it differently than you. It is hard for us to understand how this realistically hurts you.
I've got to ask how old are you? Because being asked to give something up to keep another person from facing their personal issues is no different than asking them to give up their friends because you don't like them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zealous1
Eventually you are going to come to terms with the fact someone demanded you give up something you have a right to enjoy.
Would you give up all sports because SHE doesn't like them... would SHE give up girly shows because you don't like them?
The only thing that should be "given up" is dateing and sleeping with other people...
I know most people if they were pressured into giving anything up... as minor as they may have been before.. will become a greater and greater point of discontent.
THere is a huge difference between giving something up because you wanted to (your idea and choice)... and giving it up because you were asked or pressured to.
E.G. If I was forbidden from drinking beer... and I don't drink much beer but if someone told me I couldn't I'd begin to WANT to drink a lot more beer.
And what might seem reasonible to a 20 year old will not be nearly as reasonible to a 30, 40 or even 50 year old... who understands the rights and privledges that come with being an adult... and how precious every last one of them are.
I don’t know that people’s problems with porn always stem from pre-existing insecurities. I think porn might actually cause insecurities to develop. If your partner is frequently sexually fantasizing about someone else or other people that look nothing like you, be they on a screen or on the street, it can cause you to consider yourself inadequate in ways you never did before. If your wife is constantly checking out men that have a muscular build while you have a slight build, you wouldn’t think that maybe she’d be more attracted to you if you started lifting weights? If your husband were always looking at redheads or commenting on how sexy red hair is, you wouldn’t consider dying your hair? You may have never even considered your natural attributes to be flawed, but finding out that your partner finds something else very attractive could make you insecure about yourself in ways you never were before.
Also, there are plenty of individuals on this site alone who complain about their partner’s porn use not because or only because it makes them feel inadequate, but because there’s a sexual imbalance in the relationship. When one partner feels like they are not getting enough sex while the other partner is regularly masturbating, that can be hurtful and frustrating. No insecurities required, just a normal desire for sex. I think frustration is maybe misdirected at porn when really it should be directed at the partner who is perhaps being selfish or neglectful.
All relationships require some sacrifice, some compromise from the individuals involved. People have entitlements as adults sure, but we also need to enter into relationships willing to give a little. You can’t force someone to do something. That is impossible. Even with a gun to his/her head, a person is still never forced to do something. There’s just a point where he/she submits. You can, however, choose to give up things in a relationship, make big changes because your partner asked you to. I don’t think it’s wrong to at least discuss or ask. In fact, I think it represents good communication to talk rather than bottle things up. I don’t think we should try to force changes on our partners, but I also don’t think we should enter into relationships expecting to stay on our own little islands and have everything go the way we want. That applies to both partners.
There is a huge difference between sacrifice and accommodation... it takes age and life experience to see they are not at all alike.
TO a young person... they think nothing about thinking the OTHER person should have to give soemething up for them... (odd that they rarely feel this way when THEY are asked to give something up).
Demanding the other person give something up is a futile attempt to change the other person... (which never works) because it also takes sufficient life experience to understand people and their nature.. to know that people only change when THEY want to change... and even then it usually requires a near death experience to do it...
Once you have developed enough maturity you understand when you pick someone you accept them WITH all their flaws... or you find someone with flaws you can live with... and everyone has flaws.
You aren't building a street rod... where you pick of a junker and work out its flaws into what you want... a person is a living thing.. and their flaws are part of their character. And they aren't for you or anyone else to decide to fix. The sole exceptions being criminal activity of any kind, or substance abuse.
I bet the people that advocate changing someone else would not be so gung ho about someone else changing them to what fits that persons ideal.
He asked me to give up coffee so we could save a little more money, I did. He asked me to move to a different state, far from my family and give up a good job offer so that he could pursue his goals and I did. When his father recently became ill, I sacrificed quite a bit of time, money, effort to care for him. He asked and I did. In order to minimize my debt, I asked for his help paying my tuition and he agreed. We do these things because we think they're better for us, for our relationship. I believe the things we've done and given up represent sacrifices, not just accommodations.
Okay, backpack, you got me.
If my husband asked me to give up coffee so that we could save money, you'd better bet that we'd either given up EVERYTHING else to drink except water, and that we didn't have cable, cell phones, internet, and had pawned all of our music and movies.
And if I guy felt about porn the way I feel about coffee... well, he can have it. I don't give a damn. It's not going to make me feel inadequate to not be a porn start because I trust that he loves me for a reason that isn't as superficial as my hair color or build.
If porn was costing him a lot of money it would be different... most people don't have metered internet... and internet usage is thus flat rate... no matter where you go and what you use it for.
I haven't paid a dime for porn since I got the internet, and I didn't before you could get it at home via BBS services which most times were also free... thats not saying there isn't a lot out there you CAN spend money on... I'm saying you can get almost everything you want and not spend a dime... 25 years ago it wasn't like that... but today it is.
Money isn't a legitimate excuse here on that topic.
Money is quantified work and effort. Money is a means to obtain comfort and happiness. Losing some can mean you have to do more work later and/or you must do without something that would add pleasure to your life. I'm sure he would like to use that tuition money for a nice vacation somewhere and I miss my coffee on a daily basis. Just because it's easier to rationalize, doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate sacrifice. And something doesn't have to have monetary cost for it to have other, more abstract costs.
But this discussion was about expecting someone to give up porn...
I don't disagree with you on the other things you just mentioned... thats part of daily life and living within your means.. And things like vacations are very intermitant in nature and not something free you might engoy several times a week...
I liked Hostess HoHo's... I liked them a lot... I didn't eat them very often because they would make me fat... not because I couldn't afford the indulgence...
Of course now I can't get any more HoHo's even if I wanted because they don't make them any more...
I'm sorry about the HoHo's.
But monetary cost is not the only reason you give up something. In truth, we could afford my coffee and it was something that I enjoyed every day. Not buying it, however, gives us a little more room in our budget, reducing the stress on us, and thus improving our relationship overall. Also, I listed other things I changed or gave up just because he wanted something badly enough to ask me to sacrifice for it. There were things we did that had pro's for him and had only con's for me (except for the pro of keeping a good relationship). Everyday people make difficult or big changes when issues arise in a relationship. What makes porn so different than other things, which can be much more important, that we give up for our partners?
The very fact that it actually IS about one person demanding the other person stop something so the first person doesn't have to face a personal problem they have...Quote:
Originally Posted by backpack2389
If HE had an irrational hatred of all hunky male actors... and you enjoyed some of the movies where a Hunky male actor might be in... its not less irrational for him to demand you never watch another movie with hunky male actors... than it is for the woman to demand he give up watching anything with another naked female in it some of whom are likely to be attractive too..
I'd say the same thing about a guy with that irrational hatred of Hunky male stars as I would about a woman with an irrational hatred of Porn. And that is get help for that problem because hiding from it isn't going to cure it. And curing it should be the goal... not avoidance.
I have two friends. Each are half of a couple. One is deathly allergic to strawberries and the other is deathly allergic to peanuts. Over the past year I travelled with the significant others' who aren't allergic to the aforementioned items. Each have given up the allergen that their mate was allergic to. On each trip each indulged in that allergen while they were away from their mate.
They've given up something for their spouse, and when they have a chance they indulge.
The problem with porn, and some would say the great advantage of it, is that it is everywhere. Subtle or not. Psychologically it is impossible to get rid of it all. They've tried to do that in the more conservative islamic countries with mixed results. For porn consumers, they've got an unlimited and easily acceptable supply. Most people, if they promise never to consume porn, will just be far more clever in their consumption of it. Private browsers, secret porn folders, nudie mags behind the furnace, and all that. They're not doing it out of disrespect for their mate but more out of a desire to consume it.
Many of the insecurities that seem to be caused by porn are ones that were there to begin with. They would've cropped up at some point. Say, sitting on a park bench with your chubby wife and checking out the fit and trim jogger that just ran by. It would spark the same feeling as if she were to find out that you were looking at mainstream porn. The more productive use of the mental resources would be spent on introspection and contemplation as to why you feel like that.
It isn't to say that all the porn issues are the woman's fault, but a lot of women have issues that aren't addressed. They come to a head and instead of figuring out what and why it is happening they'll blame it on the external source ignoring signs otherwise. It is easier for other people to be in the wrong than yourself. This often ignores the intimacy that is present in the relationship as well. The woman might not be perfect but she is in the eyes of her mate. He will look at other woman but he is committed to her.
I do realize that I am jumping around a little but I am trying to undemonize Porn.
There is always compromise but never expect someone to give up something wholly. That is setting you up for failure.
I'm not advocating demands, just saying that it's not so ridiculous to ask (as it often seems women are told they're wrong for even bringing the topic up). Maybe a discussion will only lead to lying if the person is ashamed of their porn use. And I think it is telling that so many men do lie about it. If I asked my partner to stop spending so much time looking at cars online, he'd look at me sideways and say why? He would certainly never lie about it or try to hide it. He would regard me as though I were crazy for that. If I asked him to stop spending so much time looking at other naked women, he probably would not even look at me at all out shame or embarrassment. In one scenario, he's been caught maybe wasting time, but not doing anything "bad." In the other scenario, he would feel as though he'd gotten caught doing something "wrong" and not just because I brought it up. If there really weren't some internal sense that something could be wrong with it, I don't think people would lie.
I also see a big difference between porn and romantic comedies (not so much romance novels which are essentially porn in text with a setup). I don't think I'm the only person who sees a big difference between the two as romantic comedies and chick flicks are plastered all over all channels of television at all hours while porn isn't. Also, I think in general romantic comedies are meant to make you think "aww" not "I really want to screw him right now." But, then again, I'm not into romantic comedies (too sappy and idealistic) so maybe I'm reading that wrong.
Insecurities arise initially because you are given some standard to compare yourself to and porn provides a sexual standard. I think it definitely brings out and enhances pre-existing insecurities for a lot of people but I also maintain that it can create them where they didn't exist before and maybe would never have existed. For example, how many people wax/shave their pubic hair because that's the fad in porn right now and that's what their partner expects or has grown to like from simple exposure. How many times would your partner have to masturbate to a particular type before you would start wondering if they wouldn't want you to be more like that? I've read blogs where large breasted women are upset to be so endowed because their partners are masturbating to small breasted women - counter to normally conveyed messages in society.
The reason I think this issue can be so problematic and is unique is because the emotions associated with it are so fundamental and run so deep while the topic itself is very personal. It's an area where you can easily get hurt and easily invade someone's space too much. I think it's entirely normal for people to be protective of something so intimate and fundamental in beginning and maintaining a strong romantic relationship.
And that's why you see this wrong.
Romantic books or movies... ARE the same thing to a woman's brain as porn is to the Male brain... Because women's brains do not think the same way mens brains think. And this is true at the genetic level... its instinctive and bred into the human condition from the earliest stages of human evolution.
Until you understand that difference... you aren't going to understand much else about men and women. And you will frequently find yourself at odds eventually in any relationship over a number of things. And they will happen... its not if but when.
Because the differences are far deeper than just boy parts and girl parts. And its way deeper than learned behaviours.
Guys are visual... we always have been, we always will be. Women aren't in the same way we are. And that's why Chick flicks are the way they are... and why Guy movies are the way they are...
Women respond better to the book version of romatic things... because they have to get their thought processes going to get in the mood.. before she's ready to go..
Show a guy some skin... and he's ready to go.
You see men as a whole have been told ad nausea that we have to respect the feelings of women and all that crap. That whole equality thing. Looking up porn vs cars is also apples and oranges; one is taboo and the other one isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by backpack2389
Also, my wife doesn't mind me looking at porn, but I am respectful of it and don't look at it while she is in the room, around, or awake. It isn't so much that I am worried about her seeing it, it is more about what she will think when she sees what I am looking at. Some of the stuff I look at I don't really want her to know about. Sure I like Gilfs and furry porn, but I don't want to be judged by it. Nor do I really want her to think that I am unsatisfied with her when I am not. It is the entire, "Why are you looking when you have this right here?" argument. Answering, "Well you're not naked posing seductively for me." will get you slapped. Same with, "Do you mind if I objectify you and use you just as a sperm recepticle?". "I just want to use you for your naked body. Could you spread it a little more?" will probably just get you kicked to the couch.
Maybe being a little more honest would work, but it is taboo and can seriously affect your partner because of their own self-image and insecurities. Why should we honestly stop because of that?
Which is why you fail. Do you know the difference between the arousal cycles of men and women. Men don't get all aroused by that sappy crap. Or the literally achievements of trashy romance novels. They don't anything and are tedious for the most part. We suffer through the movies because more often than not we'll get laid afterwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by backpack2389
The arousal cycle of a female is a lot more complex. It requires a lot of emotional involvement. You can just go up to a woman show her your junk and expect to get laid. It requires a lot of work to get her in the mood. Then she helps to get the guy in the mood by taking off her clothes.
Do you see the vast differences here? One is a purely physical response, the other is a physical response triggered by an emotional one. This is why you don't understand porn. I bet if you were to read the harlequin romance novels and compared the guy to your mate, you'd see some startling differences. Think about how turned on you get though reading those.
The male equivalent to those books are playboys. Always have been.
It is THEIR self-image issues and THEIR insecurities. That cause THEIR lack of trust in THEIR man. It is like thing that twiggy is a accurate model for weight management. There has been a lot of media that has enforced that you're only beautiful if you're doing this or that. There has been a growing movement for body positive where you look at and realize you're beautiful the way you are. Getting away from this. There are a lot of men who would take Kirstie Alley, or Oprah in their chubby days over Twiggy or any of the super thin models.Quote:
Originally Posted by backpack2389
I suppose what I want to say is that the women should be more confident in themselves and their own self image. This includes their sexuality.
My wife is high on the BMI scale and caucasian. I masturbate to... pretty much everything. Midgets, barely legal, hairy, REALLY hairy, Indian, black, Asian, big boob, small, Milf, Gilf, Amateur, Furry, group, orgry, BSDM, and many others. Doesn't mean that when I want to make love I don't want my wife and just my wife.
Backpack,
I don't think most guys lie about watching porn. I think only the ones that know their wife/ girlfriend would get upset lie. Or lets say it's the first time the subject is being discussed and he knows his wife is insecure about that sort of thing (like if she's the type to get upset if he just looks at a hot girl walking by), then he might lie because he knows his wife just doesn't get it, and he wants to avoid an argument.
There can be issues with porn (like a guy addicted to it and he's neglecting his wife). And sure you could blame that on porn. But if porn didn't exist it's still very very likely that the husband would find something else to be engrossed in and still neglect his wife.
But anyway I think the men that lie about watching it are the ones who know their wife/ girlfriend either just don't "get it" (that it's literally only about getting his rocks off and nothing more). And/ or the wife is insecure about it.
Smoothy & Cravenmorhead,
I am totally with you. The one thing I don't fully get, is the whole romantic chick flick movies getting women in the mood. Maybe you are correct with most women? Maybe I'm different? But I can't remember even just once being aroused after watching one of those. I do watch those, but I'm pretty particular with which ones I'll watch. And I'll admit sometimes it makes me relate it to my own husband and appreciate his qualities/ feel warm and fuzzy about him. But my mind doesn't go any further then that.. I don't then get in the mood. Do women really tend to sleep with their guy right after seeing that kind of movie? Lol I'm pretty positive I've never done that.
But maybe I am wired a bit more like a guy? Cravenmorhead said if a guy flashed his junk at his girlfriend that doesn't do anything for her. I can see how that can be true. But for me personally, if my husband flashed his junk (if it was hard) then it would totally get me in the mood.
So I guess I'm trying to figure out if I think a lot different than most women, or maybe you don't realize what you are saying about the chick flicks/ romantic movies is a bit of an exaggeration?
I'm leaning towards I'm just different because everyone on here goes on (even the women) about how foreplay for a woman starts long before intercourse. Things like doing dishes, other chores, and I guess on top of that being extra sweet to her helps her get in the mood. That boggles my mind because to me foreplay is literally foreplay. Touching = foreplay for me, that's it. He could have not done any chores, played video games for hours, or we even had an argument earlier, or maybe he did do all the chores and been really sweet, but it literally doesn't make a difference one way or the other. As long as he is feeling me up before we have sex, that's the only thing that's foreplay for me.
Sorry if that seemed a bit off topic.
CravenMorhead, now you've got me curious about the "furry" porn! Lol I've watched shows about furries but I've never thought to look up that type of porn. Do they actually have sex or do they just hump each other over their costumes?
Well on a completely different note, Happy Thanksgiving everyone!! I hope everyone has a wonderful day! :-]
I understand that entire stereotype of 'women get turned on emotionally, men physically.' And I guess, maybe I'm missing something in that regard because that doesn't apply to me. Sure, I want to feel like he loves me but I hate 'chick flicks' and can't stand romance novels. In my mind, one is just idealistic crap and the other so stupid and trashy that I can only laugh at it. Neither of those two things has ever turned me on. I also don't get porn. I look at it and again, it does nothing for me. I feel like such a perve watching two people go at each other and can't help but think the entire time "what is so great about this?" What honestly does turn me on... the offer for real sex. Literally, if he comes in the door and says "I want it," I'm there and he knows that. My libido is sky high, always has been and he has never had to jump through hoops for me -- in fact, quite the opposite.
So, what I've said in other posts about a woman who is not getting enough sex saying to her partner "hey, why not go to the computer a little less often and come to me (with whatever fantasy you can cook up) a little more often" stems from personal experience - something everyone seems to be big fans of. I want it ALL the time. I have tons of enthusiasm and am totally willing to try whatever he wants, something I've told him many times. But for him it's often "okay, I guess" and he never seems to really be excited about it. I can't help but wonder. The major difference between the two of us with regard to our sexual experience is years and years of porn use on his end whereas that's not my bag, baby. Would he be more interested if all of these things were as "new" for him as they are for me? Can mere exposure change you in ways you might be entirely unaware of?
I don't think having a different perspective qualifies as failing. It just simply is what it is, a different perspective. I advocate real sex and think whatever you can do to make it better and make it happen more often, is a good thing. And for some couples, maybe many, reducing or even eliminating porn use could be a great thing they honestly never even thought to try. But, before many people would give that idea a second thought, there has to be someone who says "just because you have a right to do something, doesn't mean it's what you should be doing/doesn't mean it will give you the best outcome." So, communication is good, even if it's something you would rather not talk about. Asking never hurts, as long as you're prepared for a no. Porn is not all good for all people - like anything else you consume. Some stereotypes are dated and/or inaccurate. And I would take an all too short quickie with my partner over great imaginary or virtual sex any day.
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:19 PM. |