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Her counselor doesn't sound all that great with the advice either as far as the hubbie looking at it like a secret affair... unless he feels the getting caught is safer somehow.
I must inform others that it is abnormal for them to hide their porn too I suppose?
Here I thought when my ex was hiding his Playgirl books it was more an adolescent 'boys will be boys' type thing than a secret affair type thing.
It's more complicated then just that... there is a lot I have reserved your only getting some of what's going on but the important thing is I need to get myself together. It's not just about this, there are revolving issues. It's nothing we can't work out but in the meantime I just want to concentrate on my baby and my pregnancy and it starts with me and not him and his issues anymore. So the counselor is constructive and he is just rendering his decision on the basis of what we both discuss and finding solutions that work... it starts with communication not a toybox... sometimes you need an objective and neutral person to point flaws out on both partners accounts.
You asked him for a separation; so you asked him to leave for a while?
Anyway, if you have reserved a lot, it's true that people here can't get a sense of things from just a few paragraphs compared to talking to someone for an hour. On the other hand, I think there's a lot of communal wisdom here. We don't all agree, but I think most of us do understand that it's his secretive behavior that worries you.
Anyway, good luck and congratulations on rediscovering your artistic self. I hope the birth goes well and you and your husband can fix things up soon.
Well not really separation just some time apart, we agreed on about a month and I feel its in my best interest... I can't even get 15 minutes alone in the bath... its either my daughter or him (could you imagine me trying to paint for a couple of hours - yeah, not going to happen at least with baby she can finger paint :)). I need him to respect my space and maybe I will give him his. So, its just me needing space and it is going great, we go on dates and take turns with the baby... plus I am focusing on what really matters... my pregnancy and we will get back together soon. We have no intentions of splitting up... we still do love each other undoubtedly just need to make some constructive time to ourselves - everyone needs air right? Thank you for the pep talk and a push into the right direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by asking
A man has to have his private life just as a woman should have her own private business.
As long as you are treated well, just leave this whole issue alone. He keeps it private; it's not in your face. :)
Best wishes going forward,
Fun stuff... thanks...
April, let me start by saying that I have appreciated many of your posts on the AS boards. There have been a great many instances in which you have been kind, generous, thoughtful and patient.
That said, I just finished reading this entire thread for the third time, and I have some feelings about it that I would like to share with you. To be honest, I think you might have some things going on with you. Perhaps you would benefit from carefully reading this thread again from beginning to end. You might completely disagree with me. If this is the case, that's fine. I still think you might benefit from having someone tell you like they see it. Also, you should know that this isn't about the content of your question; it's about the way you've handled the information that was given to you.
I was confused by some of your responses. They looked like the kinds of things one would write if they were suffering from heavy mood swings. One minute you were happy, and the next you were lashing out without justifiable provocation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine
From all of these comments, it seemed that you were happy and highly appreciative of the different opinions that were offered to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine
And then...
Where did this come from? This was the first of your extremely rude comments that were entirely uncalled for. smoothy responded to the points you made referring to your husband's use of porn as a replacement for intimacy with you. I saw his comments as supportive of you, so I really don't know what caused you to lash out at him like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine
If you think that someone has not understood your question, then you should either consider the possibility that what you wrote was unclear, you should try to clarify yourself with different words, or you should just ignore it. These kinds of responses are neither constructive nor appropriate.
What on earth was this about? It looked to me like it flew right out of left field. I would sincerely like to know what you found to be so inappropriate and demeaning.Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine
Did you show your counselor a copy of this thread? If not, what did you tell him it said for him to find it so offensive, inappropriate and demeaning?
I will also say that I found this post especially insulting considering how much members of this site wrote to support you from the very beginning. I thought that Asking was especially helpful and patient with you.
You might also consider how much attention your thread actually received. You were given a lot more help than most people get.
If you don't agree with members' suggestions, don't chew on their advice so that you can spit it in their faces. If you didn't like what you were hearing, you could have easily chosen not to take their advice. Of course, I still think there is a lot to be said for hearing new perspectives and ideas in relation to any difficult situation.
If you aren't giving us the whole story, you cannot possibly expect others to guess what else is going on. Your posts gave the impression that this is the only thing that has kept your marriage from being idyllic.Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine
Can I suggest that you might not have understood the concept of the toy box as it was being presented? At least, as I saw it, keepitsimple made this suggestion so that you would know where any and all porn was. He also said that if the porn is continually hidden in other places, to throw it out as a consequence. His intention was to give you more power in the situation. He didn't suggest that a toy box would be a good replacement for communication in a relationship. With a young child in the house, this is an entirely reasonable idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine
This was, again, unnecessarily rude.Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine
I'm really not interested in policing the threads. I just found this one to be so far out there that it deserved my attention. The only reason anyone responded to your thread was to help you. If you didn't want to hear their opinions, then you shouldn't have asked for them. I am sure their time would be better spent helping people who really do appreciate their advice.
As this is a private and anonymous arena in which many of us come to learn and grow, I think these were worth saying... and hearing. Honestly, I think the people who came here to help you deserve an apology from you. That's just my opinion.
With all of this said and done, I do think you bring many special, wonderful and unique qualities to the table. I think you're generally very sweet and highly perceptive. Just consider how others might be perceiving your words from the way you have presented them here.
(one last thing... don't take this the wrong way, but I keep wanting to ask you to break your posts up a little bit more. Maybe it's just me, but I always find they're easier to read that way. I'm sorry if you have taken offense to the things I have written, as my intention was not to be hurtful to you. I wish you well.)
Firstly, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your personal, thorough and constructive response to my evidently discourteous past posts and with all due respect none of what you said was taken inadvertently. Congratulations on your successful policing :), I feel obligated to respond to your public post. I agree there are a lot of deserving threads (this I know being one of them) there are ones that have name-calling to the OP which is awful but not lesser in the least. I must have made some sort of an impression on you on other threads for you to view all my posts on the AS Boards.
Clearly, I had made this thread when I first joined the site in August with many unresolved emotional dilemma's which not all where outlined appropriately. This I respectfully understand will make it harder for someone to assist. At that time I may have not been prepared to hear exactly what was being said, however, my responses, some of which may have not been suitable or had I carefully thought of how my responses would effect others or how it would be understood on the receiving end (many of which where not “intentionally” intended to be inconsistent, unstable and/or volatile, but where). You can understand, I had enough of what was going on at that time and became unstable, depressed and angry and as a result of that I was lashing out to undeserving recipients which are typical stress responses (not excusable in any event). In many of my posts I did admit that the changes had to start within myself and thanks to Choux…I started a hobby which opened a lot of therapeutic insight and personal passion. I do not feel at liberty to share any more information due to your post other then when I initially brought it up to the counselor, I did pull a copy of this thread as per his request. He didn't like it because he “could” assess the situation from both standpoints and had clear knowledge of what was going on in both partners lives, some posts where not constructive for my situation nor where they relevant (In his opinion) and I needed a different approach as per "his" assessment.
I should have been more careful when “everyone” was suggested as that was not the case and in particular Asking actually provided the most support and also found some comments seemed patronizing and not relevant to my concern. Actually, Asking is by far, in my opinion, one of the most unbiased and optimistic persons on this site.
These posts below where not intended for this site and are evidently inconsistent with what was being said. Considering the last post was entered two months after; you can plainly see it was an inadvertent error. I run a few programs off my tool bar and type 86 words per minute, but for future reference I will close some programs and slow it down, you have obtained my full attention at that.
-Is your head that far up your a** that you don't even hear what I am saying?
-Fun stuff... thanks...
What you have presented to me herein was bold of you; I appreciate your concentration on this post. I have taken everything into account. So having said all of that, I sincerely apologize if I have offended anyone and thank you for your assistance and personal insight in this regard.
Wow.
I am actually quite impressed with the way you handled this. I will tell you that I was nervous about adding my last post for fear of creating unnecessary drama for you, for this thread and, also, for myself.
It's clear that you've been dealing with a lot over the last several months, and for that I am sorry.
I wish only good things for you as you continue to put each piece where it belongs.
I look forward to seeing you in other threads. Again, thank you.
Your post took a lot of time and effort and I thought was deserving a response. You can not base a person by one post... this particular thread was "my" problem and I evidently could not handle the situation well but no one is innocent of that :). Everyone has problems unique from everyone else; I am sure you can concur. We all fall only stand up and try walking again :).
linnealand you could not cause additional stress or drama but you did take steps in possible confrontation... if of course, that was your intention and if of course, I decided to take your post personal and retort. Besides I enjoy someone with a wholesome and healthy heart.
Things have "somewhat" improved and I still get "confused" (I guess I wouldn't be human if I didn't) thank you for asking and I have been going through a lot of big changes but they are all positive turn of events.
I am sure we will be meeting again... it was a pleasure.
Best regards,
I work for psychologists and psychiatrists who perform psychological evaluations for our court system. I mention this because these evals are more involved in examining behaviors and predicting future behaviors than a general visit to a "counselor."
Having said this : Generally, men hide porn out of embarrassment. This comes from knowing that the material is, or "should be" demeaning to women (particularly a woman he loves), and having been told it is wrong and/or disgusting.
It is embarrassing because porn is a tool for masturbation, which although perfectly natural, is intensely private. Very often, as a young male begins to discover porn and/or masturbation, a female who is in an authority position (mom) catches him in the act, or finds the porn, and scolds him. Depending on the embarasment this causes and the punishment that may have been given him, he will ALWAYS feel that he must keep is "dirty little secret." Especially when another female with authority (you) finds it.
Masturbation, or the accusation of masturbation, is often used as a means to tease, reject, or socially alienate. The use or possession of pornography is also used in this way. Men LOVE to tease other men about masturbatiing, porn, or having a blown up doll for a girlfriend.
Although we all know that men (and women) enjoy porn, whether it be online, magazines, movies, or even a live show, it is still considered by many to be a weakness of character. A flaw in a man's ability to be "faithful."
I would bet that your husband gets a flash of embarrassment from one or all of the above experiences, and this makes him unable to admit that the material belongs to him, and to refrain from sharing any of this side of himself with you. He does not trust that this is, and will remain, OK with you.
Many men are relieved to find a woman who is not offended by porn, and even accepting of it. Many others do not trust this aspect of the relationship, or feel that if the depth of his use (or possibly even addiction to porn) is discovered , she will become angry.
If you think he would not be offended, try buying a subscription to his favorite magazine(s) as a gift for him (if you're sure the porn doesn't bother you). He may be less likely to hide it if he can accept it as a gift from you. He may feel that you wouldn't give it to him if you thought badly about it, or lowly of him for having it.
To give it another spin... look at the clientele at your local strip club. If you see someone walking in or out what is the first thing you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by ibrat64
I imagine the prevailing thought is "wow - how pathetic". Granted, that person you just judged might be single, unattached, financially stable and otherwise a great person.
He has done nothing wrong... but he is still judged.
As open minded as our society has suggested it has become, it still holds certain things as "wrong" even though they are perfectly legal.
Failure begins@ fear
The situation with your husband is clearly an addiction problem.
This is the best way someone can help me if I was your husband, who loves his family and cares for his wife, but dwell in some secret weird activities and lie about it to my wife(as I definitely judge himself) is by not: continuously tell me why what am doing is wrong, or why what am doing is OK, I will prefer you to completely ignore me after making your true feeling known to me. I may continue in my mystery but my wife must realise that nobody can love someone more than they love themselves.
If you want to stay with me, you must ignore, to ignore, you need to totally ignore, not pretend, you need to hold no hard feelings, you must be strong and not fear.. when you fear, you fail... no matter how much you try, I will continue to get frustrated and I will turn the table around by criticizing you as he did.
At the end off it all, I will come to realise my short comings maybe by some bad experiences that may have occurred as a result of my open secret life.. but, will it be too late then? Only you can answer that question now... whenever I decides to be 100% open about it, you will be there with me and if you are not, I, unfortunately learnt the hard way
If you continue to frustrate yourself by reacting to the situation, I will turn you to what you are not.. ur personalty could be affected.. if you decide to stand by me, you must ignore, and just be normal.. thats if you are interested.. if you are not interested, and you know you can not condole me lying to you about porn, then lady, DECIDE NOW.
If you fear to make a decision you fail and the result isn't good news.
I pray that the love you have for him help you to turn him around so you can both have the wonderful life you both deserve.
[QUOTE=festalcom;1389447]failure begins@ fear
The situation with your husband is clearly an addiction problem. ]
I'm not sure that way to deal with something that "is clearly an addiction problem" is to totally ignore the addiction. True addiction is normally a behavior that that the addict needs help to overcome. Be it rehab for drug addiction, or cognitive therapy for behavioral addiction.
With addiction, the question the addict asks her/himself must be "Has this behavior reached a point where it is interfering in the normal progression of my life/relationship?"
I didn't get that feeling from the original post that this was the case, so I wouldn't label the issue an addiction. I agree that if the porn doesn't interfere in the relationship, and the problem is with the denial of it, then berating it over and over again may only force a deeper denial.
I stick by the suggestion of purchasing a subscription (or a "couples" trip to an adult store to explore the possibility of sharing a fantasy experience) may help to ease the embarrassment and hence the denial. After all, it's not necessary to deny or hide a gift from your significant other :)
Pam
I really appreciate these November posts... unbelievably insightful and on target... especially ibrat64! It was actually his dad…he would embarrass him in front of his neighbors and really mean stuff. So by me revealing it and reacting to it just added to his problem. I found this out in one of our sessions…I was upset that he never told me so I could take a different approach. My past reactions where destructive in this issue; if I would have only known I would have handled things with due diligence and care.
Stevetcg... I have no issues with the strip club... I "use" to go with my guy friends and sometimes by boyfriend (now husband) would come along. I found it simply entertainment and I totally agree with you only some men are there EVERY day and well, I feel sorry for them more then anything because they sit there when they can be going out and meeting people :(. Usually the every day clients lead very lonely social lives and you can't hold them to that and knowing a few myself I found that they where one of the nicest and generous people. (I use to work at one of the clubs as a server/waitress on the floor…sometimes I think the non-regulars gave me the worst end of the bargain - dancers don't get touched, directly hit on or bothered during the dance (nice to have regulars looking out for your safety and step up when someone is out of line…bar and staff knows them and they have somewhat of a poll of what happens around the club when the bouncers are preoccupied)) My hubby and I use to go to the clubs before our first and I found it just created the “right” tension for desire after…lots of couples go together. He does go on occasion but I never gave him a hard time about it because I know where he is going after, home.
Fastalcom, to better understand you, you are basically saying that he beats himself up over it without me telling him how I feel or "hounding" on him. This is true I am sure. That I need to make a decision to be supportive, patient and understanding... and to ignore it as it will only antagonize me, him and our relationship... let it go. Sometimes things are better not to be discussed and maybe they are things I really don't need to know (I could agree with that too :)). You are right about my reactions and it affecting personality (which it did) because it targeted my esteem and desire... I am sure you can tell by my past responses.
To update and for you to analyze…tell me what you think about this. Am I doing the right thing? Is there anything else I can do to help myself or help him?
1. We had a fall out prior to the counseling, its just hard for me because am sexually frustrated and hard for him because he has emotional issues (that I didn't know about). I have come to terms with it, I don't talk about it, I don't bring it up and at bed I don't expect him to advance (I have given up trying) kiss him goodnight, tell him I love him and go to sleep. By doing this I have chosen to ignore the situation and just be his wife.
2. I didn't actually say this to him but I thought instead of him wasting money on CD's I have arranged our satellite to have non-stop porn (with the option of locking it from my daughter (she likes to push buttons))... he can have at it all he wants now and since I am not giving him an option to hide it (its right there) then I can move on its working for me since that is generally all I wanted when I initially wrote my thread. So, this way I have it and he does too…no hiding, no problem.
3. As it goes for sexual tensions, it wasn't too bad in bed when I first wrote this thread but now I am completely neglected so I self stimulate that way I don't go completely crazy (though it is never the same thing). I am keeping myself busy and active to cope with it and looking at it in a new light so far so good.
4. New Drive: The counselor was helping but we haven't gone and since then and the hiding kicked up again but I think now the biggest problem is being pregnant gives you a lot of drive and excess emotions…sex is great when your pregnant but maybe not his cup of tea (evidently since its been over three months). This isn't just because of my pregnancy... this has been going on for four years (since we got married) its good for 5 months and then not so good for the remainder of the year... I don't get that but I am sure there is a reason for it maybe its medical? Also, previous to, we went to adult stores together and it seems to be getting better but its always short lived and he is always so ruff in bed... he doesn't' take the time to please me as I do for him (orally or whatnot) I feel like telling him that the porn is getting to his head. Sometimes that's what I want but not all the time (I like the use of organic material and new ideas – slow to fast, pleasure and being a element of earth... this is important to me but not to him). I don't actually get turned on before he decides to take me in my sleep. I wake up and don't know who, what, when and where I am…sometimes I think I am with someone else and freak out. Wow, I thought it was just hiding porn but now I find that as a result to that I am neglected and find him to be not so good in bed... but it takes two. He wasn't like that before we got married and the porn I am sure was always around. I just think I tried and he tried and it just isn't the answer, neither is starting a fight or ignoring it but I don't think I have much of a choice. I am pregnant (found out late June or early August) and have 2 more months to go so I don't need any additional stress but I have decided that in 2009 I am taking the "emotions" and turning into fuel. What I mean is I will be getting back into shape and using all that reserved emotion and energy to put it to work to better myself. I am better then I give myself credit for (before and after pregnancy) and my esteem issues got caught up in it, I should have known better; I should have known it wasn't about me. I have chosen to grin and bear it (since talking about it nicely won't work and he becomes very sensitive and upset…sometimes physically upset and I can't take any risks now being pregnant) until the pregnancy is over since it is so short term... when the baby is here I will be too tired to think about it and when I am ready to start getting back in shape I will be using up all my energy there. I will make attempts to show him my sexual appetite and ability to be flexible with his needs when I am ready after the baby. So relax for now, back off and give him some space. If things go back to the way they are now my fear is I don't know how long I am willing to wait for him to come around.
What do you think about this? Much appreciated for you taking the time to read this post, I know it was a long one.
I have a question for you... I really appreciate your posts... why is it when we did go, he could pick out "anything" for me but have a hard time picking out a dvd we could share? I picked a few and asked him which one or if there was something else because I wasn't sure and he wouldn't help and said I am fine with whatever you want. Then I try to get us to watch it together and "I am not in the mood" comes from him. I evidently gave up on this because I thinks he prefers to do it on his own. Is it just case he's embarrassed? Or fears my response?Quote:
Originally Posted by ibrat64
Xoxaprilwine, I am so sorry about your husband's problems. You have been as understanding and patient with him as any wife can be. I doubt many women would be as compassionate about this situation as you have been.
If he refuses to make love to you for long periods, it is normal for you to begin to think about infidelity. I have faith that you won't act on it. Don't beat yourself up about thoughts. I am impressed with your determination to use all your energy next year. That's very positive. Keep those goals! They will help you keep perspective through this difficult time.
Your husband's lack of interest in pleasing you sexually and his sometimes taking you in your sleep--to me that's a rape; have you talked to the counselor about this?--are demonstrations that he does not really cherish you the way he seems to in other contexts. Your feelings when he does this make perfect sense to me. I would not allow it myself. I would tell him if he ever does it again I will sleep elsewhere and lock the door. It's almost as if he doesn't want you to feel any pleasure.
I wonder if your now being a mother is part of the reason he has lost interest. He seems seriously messed up to me. I know you said early on that he was wonderful in all other ways. But you deserve better than this. You are young, vital, loving, kind to him, and there is really something wrong with him that he doesn't want you and appears to not to want to please you. It almost feels to me as if he is punishing you for being so attractive and eager for love. I'm not sure if that makes sense. I guess I'm thinking that he might (might) have some sort of madonna whore complex. And he can't handle the fact that you can be everything he needs, so he's sticking to pornography, which feels safer to him. Forgive me if you think this is all completely wrong. I'm trying to understand this guy through your posts...
I also wanted to thank you for the compliment you posted about me earlier. That was so nice to read! Thank you!
I think this is a great question and highlights something important in the relationship. If he's not involved in the selection, then it's not really shared, is it? Why is he resisting sharing in this area? He does the same thing in bed, where if he's there at all, it's all about him. He's saying, in essence, "this DVD thing is your idea and I'm not going to engage with you about it." Passive aggressive. Do you think he wants to work on things at all? It seems like he is just getting everything he wants now, which is to have you for wife/mother to his kids and a separate sex life that consists of masturbation and porn.Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine
It doesn't seem like he'd be motivated to change things if he doesn't want a sex life with you. If everything is perfect for him now, he can only lose by making changes. Maybe.
What's he like otherwise? Does he help with household chores significantly? Does take care of your daughter during the week? Does he pay the bills or repair things? What's his role in the household?
Please note that my contribution is based on IF I WAS UR HUSBAND... this method is had but it may help if some of us here as guys put ourself in his situation. Firstly, if I was your husband, I will go madddddddddddd if I find out that you are discusing me online. So , I think you should TAKE A DECISION and live by it.
From your latest post, am afraid I am beginning to see sign of you turning to a nagging, frustrated, etc wife which you are clearly not made up to be.. u cannot afford to be on this thread for too long if you want to save your marriage.
There is an unsolved pussle.. it says.. who rules the world?
Some say men rule the world
And some say women rule over men
So who rules the world?
The fact is both statements are correct. Take the second statement for example.. women rule over men.. how? Find out and victory will be yours.
Asking, thanks for the support... I felt like I was losing control over myself for sometime... poking my brain trying to find solutions while trying to wage the angry war inside of me. Not having a balance and sound/clear approach. Aside from the thread and to answer your question he is a very handy guy, he does all the handy-man stuff around the house and has a sub-contractor labor job. I am left to the laundry, cleaning, cooking, his accounting/admin/receivables/billables/receipts/taxes etc because he said "I don't know anything, your smarter then me" and (as of last month) staying home with our daughter and baking one in the oven :) which is a fair exchange. I had a full-time job and I always resented his compliment; I think he's pushing his responsibility on me. I this also sounds like a bit of role playing... he was hoping for that, he sees my mom and thinks maybe I will be the same; but knows I would never weigh on hand and foot because I believe relationships should be mutual... still waiting for spaghetti 4 years later :D... so in a way I am. But most importantly, he also understands my need for independence and having a career that revolves around responsibility and accountably; I need adult interaction and I need to be intellectually challenged. He does show some aggressiveness when I talk about work and says he would like me to stay home but then supports the idea of me going back to school to either upgrade or change the direction of my career objectives? When I was working he got our daughter ready and out the door in the morning and would spend about 15 minutes with her after work but he likes his t.v. too and sometimes would potato couch it... I try to get us out for a walk but he says "I am too tired and I just got home; can't I relax for an hour" but I never bug him when he gets in the door, he has a shower, eats, has a beer and watches some t.v. I ask, then it ends up being the remainder of the night. Unless I grab the keys and leave... he won't move his butt, hehe. He does work a lot and he gives me money and I do all the budgeting (like his sub-contracting) which I hate because it leaves all the onus on me... I do all the administrative stuff in our lives which makes me feel inferior because I never wanted that he can't even pick up the phone to talk to anyone except for family and friends... I always ask him to help out make decisions but he wants no part of it so in some sense he is giving me control but I don't want it... I know because it leaves him with one less thing to worry about but I don't think he realizes how much additional stress he gives me on top of what I already do. When I leave for vacation I have to go buy food and pay all the bills in advance because I know nothing will be done when I get back. But that's typical of a guy :) and how many daddy's do their daughters hair in piggy tails :) for the most part everything seems to be OK... everyone has flaws, so do I, so I don't pick at all of them, I accept them because I love him but this one part of his life I don't think he wants me to understand. Our lives have been like this for sometime and it never affected our sex life before, I guess I am just trying to come to terms with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by asking
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