Smoothy, you are not comparing apples to apples. You are right that my sex life is nobody's business, but being gay extends beyond the bedroom.

Also, are you telling me that in the 28 years you've been in the workforce that you've NEVER spoken about your spouse, your relatives, your children, a date (hopefully that would have happened before marriage), politics, music, movies, TV, art, church, your neighborhood, etcetera? I doubt that you've made it 28 years without your coworkers knowing anything about your personal life. I might also mention that times have changed in the past 28 years and my experiences in the work place (about 8 years) have been vastly different from yours. I was continually confronted with questions about who I was (although not specifically questioned "Are you gay?" it was more than appropriate to include the fact that I'm gay).

Also, straight people "throw it in my face" every time they talk about getting married. I'm not bitter about it, but you have to realize that straightness is implied and that your population has distinct advantages over ours.

If you want to insist upon flaunting gayness to everyone then prepare to be shunned or worse.

Being accepted is not forcing your will on others, but in conforming to what the accepted norm is for behavior. (And that will vary depending on where you live) Like I said, it's the flamboyant types that draw the most negative attention. And its not just Gay, its anyone who does not fit in with what is accepted by the majority of the public when it comes to behavior.

That IS comparing apples to apples. Being gay does not make you better than anyone else nor does it give you the right to ignore what is accepted as socially acceptable behavior by the general public, there are some that seem to think it does.

And in the 28 years what I do in the bedroom has not come up... what my fetishes might be have never been discussed either... And I do not work in the proverbial backwaters either. Downtown Washington DC is far removed from small town America. And far from a conservative area.

Fitting in isn't just a gay thing... trust me in that Goths, Bikers, and a whole lot of other groups have to deal with it as well. And everyone straight or not that choses to behave outside of the norm will suffer the same fate.

I've worked with gay guys in the past. Nobody gave a hoot that they were gay... but then none of them made it an issue to call attention to themselves continually by preaching it to everyone within earshot.

Like I said... if you want to continually stoke the fire then don't be surprised if you eventually get burned. That applies to any group, Those that like to dress like wannabe gang bangers, Goths, or Wannabe bikers... behave as you wish, but don't complain if you get treated differently by calling undue attention to yourself.

I've been there myself... (no I'm not gay but My hobbies might not be exactly mainstream) so I know what I speak of as far as fitting in and calling attention to ones self.

I just can't agree with you smoothy. This isn't about what happens in the bedroom. Our identity applies to more than that. Yes, we are attracted to men, but if you remember, the people at Stonewall weren't in the streets having sex and calling attention to themselves, they were being harassed by law enforcement, so they fought back... and that fight continues today. Living in DC, you should know just as well as me that there is a huge push to make the entire GLBT community a lower class of citizen. We are not pushing out views down anyone's throat.

By the way, I'm well aware of being treated differently. It happens even when we try to blend in. I was harassed in HS and I was/still am very masculine (especially for a gay man). I worked on a farm, dressed normally, etc. so don't try to blame everyone's hatred on our "throwing it in people's faces." It is not our fault that people are ignorant and mean spirited.

Well, everyone can't agree all the time... If you grew up in a rural area I'm not surprised as the window of what's considered acceptable is not as wide. Keep in mind Hippies dealt with it all the time (or anyone with long hair)... as far as making the GLBT community a lower class I certainly don't see that around here.

Like I said.. if you want acceptance you have to be sensitive to others opinions. You can't demand it. Most people don't care... but take offense to the few that try to call attention to themselves and I'm sure you know what I mean. And the gay guys I know don't fit the flamboyant description... if anything they are a little better groomed and a bit more well dressed than Joe Average around here ( as in GQ magazine type look). They don't feel a need to flaunt it and do fit in very well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Like I said..if you want acceptance you have to be sensitive to others opinions. You can't demand it.

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No, but you can and should demand equality and the right not to be persecuted. Which you will find any gay campaigning is actually about.

And why should everyone conform to a 'window' of 'normality? Who defines this? I think Hitler tried something similar did he not? Hmm worked so well.

Everybody should be able to express themselves how they want and dress how they feel. Would you take offence to a woman wearing a hijab to work? She is clearly sending a message about her beliefs, making herself stand out - should this be banned as well?

It wasn't that long ago single mothers were put in psychiatric hospitals for their 'insane' lack of morals. African Americans were forced to exist in parallel to the much superior normal, moral whites. Women weren't allowed to work- much too emotionally unstable really, to feeble for employment.

How were these attitudes overturned? By making people to accept others as human, respecting and celebrating difference. Through campaigning, education and through people who wouldn’t be cowed in fitting in. No one should have to hide their identity or feel ashamed for it - be it their race, religion, gender or sexuality.

Ummm... you don't see what's happening? All across the nation states are trying to pass constitutional amendments that prevent same-sex couples from marrying their life partners! President Bush tried to do this in '04 and '06 on a federal level. As far as demanding equality, I absolutely cannot understand how you can say we shouldn't do that.

You're right, we can't all agree on everything, but you have to admit that it's kind of crappy that people hate others for something that they can't change (think of flamboyance as part of the personality... could you just change your personality on a whim?) But even those of us who are masculine have problems... based on how I look and carry myself, people would NEVER guess that I was gay (my gay friends actually joke that I'm straight), but as soon as I talk they can tell. I don't have a strong gay lisp, but it is pretty clear that I am gay and there is no viable option to take to change my voice (believe me or I would've in HS... wouldn't do it now though). Do you see how it's not just behavior that we choose? Not that I feel victimized, but you're blaming the victim.

Conforming is a BS way of saying, if you aren't like me I don't like you and to hell with anyone with that attitude. As long as I am true to me, that's all I care about, and let everyone else do whatever they think they can.
I try to give respect, but don't tell me what I should do, or how to act because you can always walk away, and leave me and my madness alone. I understand how a gay (or different in some way) person can feel when people get cold, and callused, and down right rude, and its not right. To hell with that. Show respect, and keep your prejudice to yourself, or be prepared to suffer those consequences.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by templelane

No, but you can and should demand equality and the right not to be persecuted. Which you will find any gay campaigning is actually about.

And why should everyone conform to a 'window' of 'normality? Who defines this? I think Hitler tried something similar did he not? Hmm worked so well.

Everybody should be able to express themselves how they want and dress how they feel. Would you take offence to a woman wearing a hijab to work? She is clearly sending a message about her beliefs, making herself stand out - should this be banned as well?

It wasn't that long ago single mothers were put in psychiatric hospitals for their 'insane' lack of morals. African Americans were forced to exist in parallel to the much superior normal, moral whites. Women weren't allowed to work- much too emotionally unstable really, to feeble for employment.

How were these attitudes overturned? By making people to accept others as human, respecting and celebrating difference. Through campaigning, education and through people who wouldn't be cowed in fitting in. No one should have to hide their identity or feel ashamed for it - be it their race, religion, gender or sexuality.

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And this is why you don't fit in... why do you are or anyone else rate to be above complying with what is your areas normal behavior? Sorry this is not a personal jab but who are you to demand everyone else deal with your demands rather than behave in a manner that's accepted by most of the public. Now this can be anything and not just gay stuff. Would you capitulate to young punk gang bangers, would you capitulate to any local extremist groups like the Black panthers, Nation of Islam, White supremacists or the Klan? Because as much as I despise those groups I hold them to the same standards everyone else is expected to conform to.

You want to do your own thing, you want to make a point of it? Then fine but don't cry if you aren't treated the same. While my Gay friends are treated like everyone else its because they behave like everyone else. I'll be damned if some flamboyant type insistent on making a point about everything is going to get the same respect from me, nor will a bunch of young punks with droopy drawers or anyone else that choses to draw attention to themselves.

Keep in mind that that is a general statement... and applies to everyone because one individual does not demand I do anything, respect is earned, not given just because you decide to wave a flag of any particular group. Most people learn this by their early 20's when behavior on its own will either open or close doors to you. YOu have the right to do whatever your wish, and I and the general public has the right to exclude anyone who decides to behave differently in public.

I rough example is lets say you are of a particular religion ( which is a minority religion in the west) what right do you have to demand everyone conforms to your narrow minded and archaic standards... none, right? Just an example.

Basically if YOU wish to be included its YOUR responsibility to conform to your community standards. What happens behind closed doors is nobodies business but yours, but what happens in public is your responsibility. Goth, Biker, hip-hop, gangsta, gay, whatever... you will be judged by the face you put on yourself. Expecting the world to change to suite you is both narrow minded and extremely arrogant. And personally there ARE laws against wearing masks in public to disguise your identity, and I do object to Muslim women wearing burlap sacks... they are not required by their religion... I know more than a few very devout Muslim women and NONE will wear those. This is not a repressive society here in the USA and those are symbols of oppression. Want to do that, do it in your repressive backwards Muslim society where women are second class citizens... you come to the west then you dress as we do in the west.

Many teens don't grasp this yet but most ( but not all) adults do. This is not persecution, this is all about conforming if you wish acceptance. You can be gay and completely accepted by the general public.


Now Some people will be offended by this and others will see the point I'm making... all I'm attempting to do is explain why one individual does not rate above the group. A lesson most kids learn that you are judged by your actions and how you dress. No offense to anyone specifically was intended in this post.

Smoothy, you are so far behind you think you're first! Respect is expected until lost, and being femme is no reason to lose respect. These gang-bangers that you talk about have a reputation of committing crime and intimidating their peers. Nobody's trying to force homosexuality down your throat, we just want our relationships recognized legally and the ability to feel safe when we walk down the street. I really hope you've never said any of this to your "many gay friends" because they would punch you in the head.

Many of these gang bangers are posers... most in fact... kids who think they look cool.( and have committed no crimes other than poor taste).. and sorry, respect is earned, not demanded. From anyone. Like anyone you are judged by how you present yourself. Would you hire a lawyer that has a Mohawk, piercings everywhere and facial tattoos? I mean you have to respect him until he proves otherwise.

I can't and won't respect anyone who makes a point of looking and acting like a fool. Regardless of their race age or sexual preference. Nobody else does either. That's life. You don't even show up at McDonald's for an interview with a Mohawk, tank top, cutoffs and flip flops and expect to get hired. There are standards of behavior and dress that is expected.

That's the root of the problem... a certain group seems to think they deserve respect without doing anything to earn it or keep it. And there is more than one group that fits this.

Complain all you want but if you want to be accepted you will learn what is socially acceptable in your area and if you want to fit in and be respected that is how you are expected to behave. That's society, and refusing to fit in only hurts yourself. Like I said most of those kids who think its cool to act and dress like mental deficients learn people are judged bu how they look and behave first. It doesn't matter what kind of person they are as if you chose to be an outsider then you will be an outsider.

And my gay friends agree with this even more than I do. Its up to you if you want doors to open or close for you.

You seem to be confused. Having a mohawk is a choice, your personality isn't. Matthew Shepard wasn't especially flamboyant and he was beaten and left for dead. I'm very masculine and I have been harassed by people my whole life. You seem to think that being gay and having stereotypically gay traits is a choice... it's not!

Respect should be given to EVERY group of people until they prove they are unworthy of respect. While it is true respect is earned, initially, it is just given (that is, if you're a decent human being). I had respect for you, even though I didn't know you, but now that respect is lost. Of course, I wouldn't try to pass laws banning your ability to function successfully in this world because of it, nor would I savagely beat you. What exactly has my community done to lose respect? Oh, that's right, demand equality. I guess if we want anything to change, we should just sit back and let it happen naturally like it did for African Americans.

By the way, "irregardless" isn't a word.

Well, I do not support harassing gay people just because they are gay just to be clear as a bell on that. How can I make those comments I have made? Well they apply to everyone regardless of race, gender or sexual preference. How do I know this, because I was part of that group that was shunned or harassed when I was younger... in fact at that time I too believed as you said... however reality is quite different. I was very reactionary as well. Luckily I had a friend I respected who showed me a better way to "play the game" as he called it. I started to slowly see how I was causing some of the very same problems I was complaining about just through how I presented myself and how I reacted.

I have since "learned" how the game is played and play it pretty well. You aren't going to change hundreds of millions of peoples minds to reflect YOUR thoughts... but once you understand how others think you will learn how to get along with them exceedingly well.


Yeah I was picked on, harassed and generally shat upon for a number of years, and yes I really dished it back out as well. However I am still much the same person I was however I now fit in quite well and use the system to help me rather than rebell against it on principle.

Regardless
One entry found for regardless.
Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Pronunciation: "ir-i-'gärd-l&s
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
nonstandard : REGARDLESS
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

Definition of irregardless - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Heil Herr Smoothy!

Where I work people have mohawks, wear hijabs, have tattoos, beards and pretty much wear what they like (within health and safety.) There is respect for everyone else - no one wears offensive T shirts, or picks on anyone for their nationality (it is very cosmopolatian) or mannerisms or anything else.

People realise that it is not what somebody looks like it it's what they do, how they behave to others. I understand why some companies have dress codes, but why uniform everyone in every aspect of life. And who decides what normal is anyway?

Edit - fine play the game, I'll be damned before I do
-------------------------------

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller

Key is to identify if you are just being hypersensitive to a perceived problem. Its not uncommon as everyone has something they are hypersensitive about. Myself included.

When you work in a job that deals with the public, particularly large businesses and government entities how your employees present themselves directly coincides with how your customers see your business. There are jobs that it doesn't matter. There are far more that it matters to a very great deal.

Like the old saying goes... "if you want to dance you have to pay the piper". Its your choice what and how you present yourself as publicly. Just understand people are hard wired to trust first impressions which despite all political correctness this happens to be far more accurate than it is inaccurate.

This may bee an alien concept to those under 30... but once you surpass 30 most have come to learn what it takes to excel and understands this. And your earning potential 99.9% of the time entails learning to play the game, like it or hate it, it's a fact of life. Few people care about what you do as long as how you present yourself as mainstream. And the Gay people I know many have very well paying positions and got there through hard work and not by complaining they were being picked on, or needed special treatment. And by and large they are well respected among their straight peers, myself among them.


This has veered way off what the original question was. Basically you can tell your family... and only your closest of friends... the rest of the world doesn't need to know. Insisting on telling everyone will only call attention to yourself and as I said... being a lightning rod is not what you want to be doing. You can not force everyone to be as excited as you appear to be... so keep in mind most aren't, others don't care and most could n't care less. So why make a spectical if you are comfortable and your closest circle of friends and family are comfortable why alienate yourself from the others. Just remember the world does not revolve around you and as such most people don't need or want to know all the intimate details of your life.

I think you've proved my point about "irregardless" smoothy. Your entry says that it is a combination of two words and that regardless should be used instead.

FCUK you if you think we want special treatment just because we don't want people to discriminate against us. I'm not complaining about anything other than injustice.

Since we're bringing it back to original thoughts, I'd like to remind you that even casual aquaintances will know when you're GLBT because it simply comes up in conversation... even when you're not specifically asked, "Are you gay?" There is too much in our lives that is directly affected by our identity as GLBT to say "don't talk about it unless someone asks you directly." That's bs it doesn't matter that others don't like to hear about it... they are the ones voting for candidates who support federal level discrimination against us and I will NEVER go out of my way to make them feel more comfortable by not expressing my views.

People are not "hard-wired" to hate others. Hatred is learned! On the otherhand, personality is far more rigid. People work their entire lives to change their personalities and to no avail. I could try not to be annoyed with stupidity until I was blue in the face, but that doesn't mean that I'd ever find you more agreeable.

By the way- I work in mental health so trying to convince me that people are easily able to change personality traits won't work... no matter how much anecdotal evidence you have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by americangayboy

I think you've proved my point about "irregardless" smoothy. Your entry says that it is a combination of two words and that regardless should be used instead.

FCUK you if you think we want special treatment just because we don't want people to discriminate against us. I'm not complaining about anything other than injustice.

Since we're bringing it back to original thoughts, I'd like to remind you that even casual aquaintances will know when you're GLBT because it simply comes up in conversation...even when you're not specifically asked, "Are you gay?" There is too much in our lives that is directly affected by our identity as GLBT to say "don't talk about it unless someone asks you directly." That's bs it doesn't matter that others don't like to hear about it...they are the ones voting for candidates who support federal level discrimination against us and I will NEVER go out of my way to make them feel more comfortable by not expressing my views.

People are not "hard-wired" to hate others. Hatred is learned! On the otherhand, personality is far more rigid. People work their entire lives to change their personalities and to no avail. I could try not to be annoyed with stupidity until I was blue in the face, but that doesn't mean that I'd ever find you more agreeable.

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Well then suffer the fate of being ostricised because you refuse to listen to what others think. Sorry but that's the way it is. You already have your mind made up that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Maybe in a few years you will grasp the point I am making. Believe what you want and continue to alienate people who are not predisposed to have negative thoughts about your lifestyle. Like I said.. you just proved my point about being hypersensitive and fixated on a perceived problem that is highly unlikely there at all.

You just don't see it any more than a person suffering paranoia sees their problem for what it is. Like I said.. It's not about being gay... its all about how you present yourself to others in how they respond to you.

Expecting people to accept you and your attitude JUST because you are gay is asking for special treatment. If that treatment is outside what is allowed for everyone else with an attitude it IS special treatment. If some homophobe causes you problems there are already laws on the books to cover that.
Just for grins... roughly how old are you... I would certainly take a guess its somewhat less than 30 just by how you answer things, and likely closer to 20.

You want to know how to be better accepted by the non-gay community then you talk to us and we will tell you what we see that irritates us, cop a self righteous attitude and you only create more problems and isolate yourself from those of us who are NOT predisposed to having negative thoughts about the gay community.

Its no different than a bunch of illegal aliens demanding to be made citizens... I'm sorry but tough, there are ways to get citizenship and breaking the laws and pissing off those who are here legally is not going to further your cause. Take an attitude with the straight community and you create a rift and reinforce what stereotypes people might believe... wrong or not.

I do agree hatred is learned... not hard wired. Not everyone grew up like that and few people have the hatred towards gays you profess, that hatred is towards the select few in the gay community that chose to make public specticals of themselves.. not the general Gay community. But people being hypersensitive can and do create problems that did not exist before by being overly touchy and accusing people of stuff they were not doing to begin with also. I can state that because I lived through it when I was younger. I for one at this moment am feeling quite a bit less magnanimous towards the GLBT community as a result of this thread... ranting and demanding do not win favors. I had to work for and earn every thing I have and nobody handed me anything because I was part of a certain group. And the lessons of fitting in we hard earned... act the outsider and you will be the outsider. I've been on both sides of that fence.

The worst way to state your case is by ranting.


As far as I'm concerned you have no interest in fitting in based on your demands... so don't. It's your choice, it's your life. We all have to live by the choices we make in life, the good and the bad.

Homophobia is not a perceived problem, it is an actual problem.

Also, I understand what you're saying but disagree with you. You are blaming flamboyantly gay people for bringing violence upon themselves, our entire community for the discrimination we suffer. People's personalities are not as fluid as you'd like to believe. You wouldn't blame an african american for the discrimination they suffered (or still do) would you?

The reason I expect to be accepted (this is a legal thing, not just every random person on the street, I'm realistic) is because there is no reason for me not to be accepted. Throw your best anti-homosexual reasoning at us and we can shoot it down. Demanding equality is not demanding special treatment.

Finally, don't act like you can identify with our struggle because people didn't like you when you were younger. People hating you, killing your peers, allowing a deadly virus to spread through your community, etc. is far different from some kids calling you a dweeb and pushing you down to the ground. You are trying to make a gray world black and white.

What does immigration have to do with this? I would like you to keep in mind that our economy relies heavily on those illegal workers, so it makes sense for us to allow them to become legal as opposed to kicking them out all together.

Oh I agree homophobia is an actual problem... but you can't force people to like you any more than you can force them to like certain foods.

Flamboyantly gay people does bring problems for much of the gay community, because they are the visible face of the gay community, just as the salesman is the face of the store you visit. Unfair.. yes but that's how it is.

How can you say I can't identify with being an outsider to most people , the police and whatever? Ever get hassled by the cops for no other reason than the way you looked or dressed? Or gotten lower raises because you didn't fit the corporate mold... etc... if you mean I can't relate to being gay maybe... but don't say I don't understand being an outsider.

What does immigration have to do with this... perception. Many people don't know any illegals... but they do see people who are making total asses out of themselves trying to force everyone to do what they want. People who quietly try to follow the rules get screwed by those who chose to disobey them.

And that pisses of the voters who as a result are highly inclined to round them up and march them across the border where they belong rather than allow them here.

Its an example of how NOT to win the hearts and minds of those you want to be on your side.

I am saying that you have no idea what it's like to be in our shoes. Do you know what it's like to have church leaders say you and all your friends are going to hell? Have politicians said that they don't think you deserve the same rights as everyone else? Have you ever been refused service at a hotel because your kind isn't welcome? Have you or any of your friends been the victim of a hate crime? Has anyone protested your loved one's funeral? My guess is no. I guess in fairness, terrorist attacks are the same as hate crimes, so I'll give you that one. I'm able to answer yes to all of those questions.

You cannot compare us to illegal immigrants. We are citizens of this country and should be afforded the rights of everyone else, whether they like us. Once upon a time, non-whites were unable to vote. The majority of the voting public supported this law, but did that make it right? NO!! The fact is, there is no good reason to discriminate against us and just sitting back and allowing it to happen will not stand.

I would agrue that it's not the flamboyant who bring problems on our community, it is the straight d-bags who think our relationships and our lives are less worthy than theirs. Don't try to pin us with the blame when it is people like YOU who cause our problems.